View Full Version : Five-letter designations; KUXEM, LAMIX etc. How are these arrived at today ?
Mooncrest
5th Jun 2023, 12:19
Some of these do make at least a little sense, e.g. ROSUN = Rossendale, SANBA = Sandbach, BATLI = Batley. I understand GASKO is named for the hamlet of Gammersgill in Coverdale. But others such as KUXEM are a mystery to me. Is there a computer program that generates random but pronounceable five letter groups or are people actually paid to make them up ?
Thankyou.
Dave Gittins
5th Jun 2023, 12:27
Some years ago it was a wag not a computer that dreamed them up. Up in Lancashire are ARTHA and DALEY.
pax britanica
5th Jun 2023, 12:36
Pre computer, a retrograde step if ever there was , someone dreamed up all kinds of names which did have some relevance - several fish themed ones off the cost of Eastern Canada and a few in mid Indian Ocean relating to the desolation of an island there . Some baseball ones in the USA too
PB
Mooncrest
5th Jun 2023, 13:15
I remember LOACH and HADOC (spelling ?)in the Atlantic Ocean. Maybe they still exist.
EGNM is currently in the process of trying to reorganise its airspace, which could lead to additional SIDs if eastbound instrument departures off RW32 are introduced. SELBI, HOWDN and COTAM come to mind.
chevvron
5th Jun 2023, 18:04
I was told they simply programmed a computer to generate random 5 letter names making sure they rejected anything which had consecutive letters the same.
When I needed a 'new' VRP near my airfield, I named it 'NOKIA' because there was a factory there which had the name NOKIA painted on it.
Guess what the 'powers that be' decided.
Jump Complete
5th Jun 2023, 18:20
NEDUL is in the vicinity of The Needles, the chalk columns off the west coast of the Isle Of White, and the next reporting point along the airway is THRED. Flew over them for a few years before I got it!
Also, one of the new reporting points that appeared a couple of months ago in the southwest UK airspace is EPACE. Apparently near the factory where they build the Jaguar Epace. Wonder if it’s a bit of subtle advertising aimed at the airline pilots flying through it. (The reporting point, not the factory.)
Mooncrest
5th Jun 2023, 18:44
Reading between the lines, is there a two syllable rule for these five letter things ? It appears to be the case for all the Manchester and Leeds Bradford SIDs. Both airports once had Wallasey SIDs but as it's three syllables...Should have redesignated them as WALSI.
Mooncrest
5th Jun 2023, 18:46
I was told they simply programmed a computer to generate random 5 letter names making sure they rejected anything which had consecutive letters the same.
When I needed a 'new' VRP near my airfield, I named it 'NOKIA' because there was a factory there which had the name NOKIA painted on it.
Guess what the 'powers that be' decided.
NOKIN ?
chevvron
5th Jun 2023, 18:54
No
'To avoid confusion' it was called 'The NOKIA Factory'.
Its now a BMW plant and I've retired.
Mooncrest,
Yes, it’s the ICAO ICARD database.
From memory (it’s been a few years ago since we chose MAXIT/MODMI, GOGSI/GASGU and UMLAT/ULTIB), you get a list of about 40 ‘valid’ names. You get to choose from them or you can run another search and get another 40.
I don’t think you can say ‘I want XXXXX, is it valid?’.
See here…
https://www.icao.int/NACC/Documents/ECARD/ICARD%20User%20Guidelines%202020.pdf
Mooncrest
5th Jun 2023, 19:17
Thankyou chevron and Gonzo. Is too soon to implement a DONNY departure from Leeds Bradford?
I don’t think you can say ‘I want XXXXX, is it valid?’
You can’t. As you say, you apply for an allocation, and you’re sent a long-list of mostly unpronounceable gibberish to try and hack some kind of useable phraseology from.
Reading between the lines, is there a two syllable rule for these five letter things ? It appears to be the case for all the Manchester and Leeds Bradford SIDs. Both airports once had Wallasey SIDs but as it's three syllables...Should have redesignated them as WALSI.
Beacons are a different thing from reporting points - they have geographical names, shortened to three-letter abbreviations. Since SIDS can terminate at either beacons or reporting points, they can have names of either format.
Mooncrest
5th Jun 2023, 19:48
Thankyou rodan.
70 Mustang
5th Jun 2023, 20:09
"Some baseball ones in the USA too"
I think I remember some approaches into DFW that were related to their favorite baseball pitcher Nolan Ryan. I was flying there 1995ish.
stalling attitude
5th Jun 2023, 20:19
SUBUK is above Barrow-in-Furness where the UK builds it’s submarines.
Una Due Tfc
5th Jun 2023, 20:37
LIMRI on the Eastern end of the NAT is off the coast of Limerick, DOGAL is off the coast of Donegal, there's a few in Irish airspace named after the river mouth they are adjacent to, TOLKA, BOYNE, LIFFY. And we mustn't forget GINIS....
Many way point names are in use in more than one place. To this day occasionally an aircraft filed A-B-C is given a shortcut from A direct C and takes an unexpected turn towards a waypoint with the same name thousands of NM away.
Some great ones out there on SIDs and STARS in the US...BADDA BINNG into EWR (Sopranos reference), ITAWT ITAWA PUDYE TTATT IDEED.........SPICY BARBQ TERKY SMOKE.....SILCN VLLEY APLLE GGUGL......and of course....INBRD which I read is in Alabama.....
The Many Tentacles
5th Jun 2023, 20:46
NEDUL is in the vicinity of The Needles, the chalk columns off the west coast of the Isle Of White, and the next reporting point along the airway is THRED. Flew over them for a few years before I got it!
Also, one of the new reporting points that appeared a couple of months ago in the southwest UK airspace is EPACE. Apparently near the factory where they build the Jaguar Epace. Wonder if it’s a bit of subtle advertising aimed at the airline pilots flying through it. (The reporting point, not the factory.)
It's not, it's one of a list that was given out by ICAO and we had to pick them. It's considerably better than some of the other new reporting points in the airspace that are just awful to say and spell. Some of the geographic ones still remain, but not many anymore
oceancrosser
5th Jun 2023, 21:23
My favourite was the SINNK STAR into Brisbane, following LEAKY-BOATS-SINNK. Now apparently replaced by gibberish.
NZScion
5th Jun 2023, 21:24
Many good ones in the southern hemisphere too:
YBBN used to have LEAKY BOATS SINNK joining the 19 ILS. The waypoints from the other side were DRAIN PLUGG SINNK.
Starting at S22 E110 and heading south in 1 degree increments you have WONSA JOLLY SWAGY CAMBS BUIYA BYLLA BONGS UNDER ACOOL EBARR TREES.
Around New Zealand quite a few good ones as well. NZWN has a few locally themed waypoints (e.g. TPAPA UMAGA JONAH). Rumour has it they needed a holding pattern "Somewhere up there" and SWUTH was born.
I'm sure there's plenty more but those come to mind easily. Apparently any discretion in publishing new ones has been taken away and they are auto-generated by a computer.
Kakpipe Cosmonaut
5th Jun 2023, 21:30
ROMEL is just a few kilometres short of Moscow:E
ljdramone
5th Jun 2023, 22:17
The RNAV/GPS 16 approach to KPSM (Portsmouth, New Hampshire) has waypoints named ITAWT -> ITAWA -> PUDYE -> TTATT, and the missed approach procedure has a hold at IDEED.
(hint: Warner Brothers cartoons featuring Tweety Bird and Sylvester the Cat.)
Mooncrest
6th Jun 2023, 10:38
Some of these American ones look almost unpronounceable. How does a non-native English speaker cope ? At least the likes of GOLES and GASKO are fairly obvious.
After a long night returning from the US, DIKAS and NAKED always raised a wry smile!
Mog
Saintsman
6th Jun 2023, 18:00
Certainly for overseas airspace, I've seen designers have fun choosing codes.
And why not?
jetpig32
7th Jun 2023, 03:13
The Choww star into Las Vegas cracks me up as a Hangover fan.
rudestuff
7th Jun 2023, 08:36
After a long night returning from the US, DIKAS and NAKED always raised a wry smile!
Mog
I'm slowly learning where the line is... My last post seems to have disappeared! 🤐
Some of these American ones look almost unpronounceable. How does a non-native English speaker cope ? At least the likes of GOLES and GASKO are fairly obvious.
Wellllll… you say that, but I suspect UK ATC and aircrew generally pronounce GOLES incorrectly.
To an English speaker, it reads as ‘goals’. But it isn’t an English word, and it should be spoken with two syllables (as many non-UK aircrew do).
HershamBoys
7th Jun 2023, 16:16
They are called 'five letter pronouncables', and when you apply for some the regulator offers you a list to pick from.....you can replicate other ones, but usually only if they are in a different continent.
Liobian
7th Jun 2023, 18:40
Tks Hersham; I was just about to say exactly that. My spell in ATC ops included some time spent in deciding these names wrt new routes. The problem with duplication manifests itself when you clear a guy direct to XXXXX and he shoots off to the other XXXXX you did not know about, but which suited him, without saying anything, and generating conflict.
So who remembers reporting over 'One hundred Echo' back in the 70s ?
SINGAPURCANAC
7th Jun 2023, 19:55
Some 10-15 years ago there were big changes in our airspace.
Among other problems the name for points was big. There were no available options.
For some trial OPS team uses our names for poimts- and we get KUZMA .
I was proud to be on maps.
Later on,management said no to names of live atcos...
I was rather too young to die for such honour.
:= :p:E
toratoratora
8th Jun 2023, 13:40
How about the Admirals on the UK FIR Southern boundary?
HARDY, NELSO, DRAKE, BENBO-prob some more I can’t recall.
UVAVU, in the Yorkshire Dales, reputedly close to where Vic Reeves/Jim Moir lived.
LESTA, PIGOT, ABBOT,ADNAM…..
Or the kids comics?
BEENO, DANDI, WIZZA…
If you get really bored in the cruise, try ‘rude word waypoint bingo’. You might be surprised what is out there!
toratoratora
8th Jun 2023, 13:43
Overheard on Maastricht:
’American 123, direct KOK’
’OK, direct KOK. You really got a waypoint called KOK?’
’Yep, we got one called DIK as well!’
I don’t know if they are still there, and I can’t remember how they were spelt… but across central Australia was ( and the spelling is not correct).. Putya Sweet Lipss Tooda Phone, or something like that.
pax britanica
9th Jun 2023, 10:12
A good few years ago -must have been as I was on British Midland going to Newcastle or Manchester the young sounding FO said it was nice clear day and our route would take us over North London and then the town of Trent in the Midlands . There isnt a place called TRENT but there was/is a waypoint of that name no doubt somewhere along th river Trent. Good thing he wasnt on a trip with some of the more colourful 'virtual' locations described here
Mooncrest
10th Jun 2023, 10:21
I hope the likes of PANIC, CRASH, STALL and MAYDY never get selected by the programs!
Dunhovrin
10th Jun 2023, 16:44
NIBOG is off the coast of Norn Iron. Though it’s not very boggy at the mo.
I’d been flying “Plimmer” departures from ATL for a couple of years before I put Par 2 and 2 together and “Palmer”. 🤦🏻
The laconic atco
10th Jun 2023, 18:51
I don't know if it is still in use but my favourite from a few years ago was MELEE to the West of Paris where in the region of 10 air routes converged.
The name conveyed what I hope never occurred.
Mooncrest
17th Jun 2023, 21:06
Some musical RPs would be nice, e.g. FLUTE, GUTAR, SAXOF, BONGO, DRUMA, OBOWE, VIOLA. We had CONGA (Congleton) as a Manchester SID a few years back.
Runway26
21st Jun 2023, 11:25
The KEGUN waypoint south of Liverpool is one of the better titled ones for me. Although I despise LFC
TCAS FAN
21st Jun 2023, 13:10
We had a ball when planning the Muscat FIR, got most of what we asked for from ICAO, not sure if any still live on as cannot get online access to the AIP Oman. Are GISMO and DALEK still in use? One that we didn’t get was on the common Muscat/BOMBAY (as it was then) FIR boundary - KURRI!
A conversation with the then ICAO Regional Representative indicated that most submitted by Saudi Arabia (expat employees?) were rejected as either racially inappropriate or obscene!
Signalman
8th Jul 2023, 10:36
Years ago, all the oceanic entry / exit points were named after comics, I can’t remember all the names, but I am sure someone will be able to quote them all.
Some years ago it was a wag not a computer that dreamed them up. Up in Lancashire are ARTHA and DALEY.
I don’t know if this has been said already. But I regret to inform you that ARTHA and DALEY are no more.
Liffy 1M
9th Jul 2023, 11:02
Years ago, all the oceanic entry / exit points were named after comics, I can’t remember all the names, but I am sure someone will be able to quote them all.
Was that not in the North Sea - TOPPA, DANDI, BEENO etc.?
DaveReidUK
9th Jul 2023, 11:48
Was that not in the North Sea - TOPPA, DANDI, BEENO etc.?
TOPPA still exists, at one of the FIR boundary points over the North Sea. DANDI is in the Irish Sea, and I don't think BEENO exists any longer.
Near YYZ there is a waypoint called BIGBE.
I have circled and looked down many times and never found the letter B written on the earth!
Liffy 1M
9th Jul 2023, 12:34
TOPPA still exists, at one of the FIR boundary points over the North Sea. DANDI is in the Irish Sea, and I don't think BEENO exists any longer.
That's a different DANDI though. The old one was in the North Sea. Found here (https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj92M2l0IGAAxVUh1wKHSBZCroQFnoECBAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fatchistory.files.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F11 %2Fmats-pt-2-north-sea-sector-provisional.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1Y6v4v_sLYOrmo4uZtzGd9&opi=89978449)
DaveReidUK
9th Jul 2023, 15:57
I couldn't find a BEEZR ...
zonoma
6th Aug 2023, 20:15
toratoratora, to get to KOK, many go via BIG to get there.......
zonoma
6th Aug 2023, 20:16
If you fancy flying south via SAM (UK) on N866, you can get a ROKSI RUBMI COQUE routing.
eastern wiseguy
20th Aug 2023, 19:22
BALIX.....When spoken with a Northern Ireland accent always cracked me up.
MARGO was named for a female assistant in ScAtcc back in the day. REEKI(Y) was for Auld Reekie , a pet name for Edinburgh.
TUBBY , formerly in the vicinity of the NI coast was alleged to be named after "Tubby" Dash , a venerable aviator from Northern Ireland. RINGA...obviously a waypoint before BEL ( Belfast VOR) .