Bristow wins Irish SAR

[Franks Town]

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f9647-government-announces-preferred-tenderer-for-the-provision-of-the-new-irish-coast-guard-search-and-rescue-aviation-contract/#

[minigundiplomat]

Not going to plan for CHC.

Dutch SAR, UK SAR, Irish SAR, and sitting on the sidelines as BRS scooped up Dutch Caribbean and bought BIH in the Falklands.

[[email protected]]

I'm glad Bristow have got it, they have come a very long way in the last 10 years and made a far better job of UKSAR than I expected before they took the contract.

With the experience and skilled manpower they have at their disposal now and a SAR model that works well, let's hope they can do the same with Irish SAR and bring it up to where it should be.

[212man]

I'm glad Bristow have got it, they have come a very long way in the last 10 years and made a far better job of UKSAR than I expected before they took the contract.

With the experience and skilled manpower they have at their disposal now and a SAR model that works well, let's hope they can do the same with Irish SAR and bring it up to where it should be.

Crab, I think you need to check your security settings - I think someone hacked your account! 😂😂

[[email protected]]

Not too proud to admit I was wrong:ok:

[Winchingout]

I'm glad Bristow have got it, they have come a very long way in the last 10 years and made a far better job of UKSAR than I expected before they took the contract.

With the experience and skilled manpower they have at their disposal now and a SAR model that works well, let's hope they can do the same with Irish SAR and bring it up to where it should be.

Where do you think that Irish SAR is that it needs to be brought "up to where it should be"?

[Torquetalk]

Somewhere where the litany of threats and errors identified in the R116 accident are not present?

[Winchingout]

Somewhere where the litany of threats and errors identified in the R116 accident are not present.

R116 report definitely identifies some issues with oversight, command and control for CHC, and various elements of the DoT. That report does not touch on the more obvious causes.
My question above still stands for [email protected]

"With the experience and skilled manpower they have at their disposal now and a SAR model that works well, let's hope they can do the same with Irish SAR and bring it up to where it should be"

​​​​​What in the above quote do you feel needs to be brought by Bristow, to bring Irish SAR up to where you feel it isn't and should be?

[Franks Town]

Somewhere where the litany of threats and errors identified in the R116 accident are not present?

Like somewhere close to the M MCGR serious incident..

keep it clean the contract is won.

[Torquetalk]

FT

post-event, plenty may have changed and my reply was not intended to be dirty or unfair. But what happened there was not bad luck. The number of identifiable preventable factors was shocking.

[[email protected]]

FT

post-event, plenty may have changed and my reply was not intended to be dirty or unfair. But what happened there was not bad luck. The number of identifiable preventable factors was shocking.

Agreed and the environment that allowed that accident to happen (including the conduct of the flight itself) is exactly what I was referring to.

A good friend of mine flew Irish SAR on S61 and S92 had had very little good to say about the way national pride obscured best practice in SAR.

[212man]

Like somewhere close to the M MCGR serious incident..

keep it clean the contract is won.
Clutching at straws - I don’t think there are many, if any, similarities!

[SASless]

One thing that is true in Aviation....Accident Investigations done properly. have a sure way of identifying problems that contribute to the accident happening.

Those problems might be unforeseen, un-intentional, undesirable, and unfortunate....but they existed.

Perhaps we should see a change in how the Accident Investigation system works where at some defined time interval there be a requirement for an Audit of the Unit/Operator be done to determine what actions have been taken to eliminate those problems identified during the Accident Investigation.

If we are going to suffer losses of People and Aircraft then those tragic losses should result in something positive and good and hopefully eliminate as best possible those factors from recurring.

With the results of the Irish SAR Contract being known.....it will be up to the Winner to prove it has the ability to operate efficiently, safely, and do so from Day One of the new Contract.

Lets hope they do well in all regards.

And.....yes....there were (or should have been) Lessons Learned from the Irish SAR Crash that is being mentioned.

The new Operator has the luxury of bringing its own proven system and way of operating to the operation so no need to re-hash history is it?

[minigundiplomat]

Perhaps we should see a change in how the Accident Investigation system works where at some defined time interval there be a requirement for an Audit of the Unit/Operator be done to determine what actions have been taken to eliminate those problems identified during the Accident Investigation.

^^ This......

[vee_why]

Perhaps we should see a change in how the Accident Investigation system works where at some defined time interval there be a requirement for an Audit of the Unit/Operator be done to determine what actions have been taken to eliminate those problems identified during the Accident Investigation.

That already happens in certain geographies, usually conducted by the regulator once the accident report has been published.

[helicrazi]

I'm hearing rumours of aircraft type change? Anyone know?

[norunway]

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/0614/1389218-coast-guard/

[nowherespecial]

I'm hearing rumours of aircraft type change? Anyone know?

Likely AW189. The UK SAR bid is based on 189/ 139 so I'd expect synergies with that.

[212man]

Likely AW189. The UK SAR bid is based on 189/ 139 so I'd expect synergies with that.
That's what I have heard, ties in with FI contract too.

[normalbloke]

Not sure if this deserves its own thread or not. Bristow have just launched a consultation for a new purpose built SAR training facility at the old Daedalus site (now Solent Airport) Local council are onboard, subject to planning etc.It’s nice to see the airport coming back to life gradually.

[Franks Town]

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/court-hears-claim-of-political-interference-in-awarding-e800m-air-rescue-contract-1497677.html

[jimf671]

I'm hearing rumours of aircraft type change? Anyone know?

IIRC, UKSAR2G will have one S-92A at Humberside and two S-92A at Newquay. It is 18 months after the max extension of the Irish contract with CHC before five SAR S-92A are released from the UK fleet, based on the UKSAR2G transition-in programme. Of course, their UKSAR customer has already acquiesced with the removal of three aircraft from the UK fleet to service the Dutch fleet and, strangely, CHC Tromso.

[jimf671]

Not sure if this deserves its own thread or not. Bristow have just launched a consultation for a new purpose built SAR training facility at the old Daedalus site (now Solent Airport) Local council are onboard, subject to planning etc.It’s nice to see the airport coming back to life gradually.

Bristow have been looking at synthetic training solutions for a while.
They are not alone in that. :cool:
https://www.amst.co.at/aerospace-medicine/training-simulation-products/helicopter-rescue-hoist-trainer/
https://www.reiser-st.com/rescue-hoist-reiser-simulation-and-training-and-drf-luftrettung-raise-safety-and-efficiency-in-training-to-a-new-level/
A more central UK location may have been more sensible but it's easier to suck up to the coasties if you are just along the road. :rolleyes:

[[email protected]]

It's got decent road, rail and air links and will probably be a more popular working location for most guys and girls than their previously planned training location at Inverness, unless you are Jockinese of course :E

[jimf671]

It's got decent road, rail and air links and will probably be a more popular working location for most guys and girls than their previously planned training location at Inverness, unless you are Jockinese of course :E

I did indeed suggest to BHL management a location in Scotland :E but it wasn't Inverness in spite of what it has to offer. UK SAR does not have a centroid based on population. It's a mistake made regularly in other spheres, such as for mobile phone coverage where, a bit like SAR, it's not when people are at home that they most need the service! :ugh: Of about 2500 jobs per year, maybe 10 are in the major population centres of London and the West Midlands and about 600 are in the Highlands and Islands.

The location that I had suggested was South Queensferry since it possesses good transport links similar to Lee and already has nearby facilities that would assist one to broaden the type of SAR training provided thus enlarging the potential customer base: air, sea, river, mountain. Thinking big. :ok: It is about 300nm from the extreme reaches of the UK (and Ireland!) and a lot nearer the centroid of helicopter SAR activity than the Solent.

[jimf671]

Like somewhere close to the M MCGR serious incident... ...

The Beinn Narnain incident with Golf Romeo occurred upon the FOURTH attempt to get to an incident location that was in cloud when what the flight crew knew by the time the second attempt was complete should have indicated that Arrochar MRT waiting by the road nearby were the only safe solution.

(A document on air-ground collaboration summarising discussions between CHC and MRT in 2011, and shared many times since, reads: "In conditions that prevent flying at the incident location, MR resources can be deployed by air to a point nearer the incident.")

So yes, regarding R116, clutching at straws.

[Franks Town]

The Beinn Narnain incident with Golf Romeo occurred upon the FOURTH attempt to get to an incident location that was in cloud when what the flight crew knew by the time the second attempt was complete should have indicated that Arrochar MRT waiting by the road nearby were the only safe solution.

(A document on air-ground collaboration summarising discussions between CHC and MRT in 2011, and shared many times since, reads: "In conditions that prevent flying at the incident location, MR resources can be deployed by air to a point nearer the incident.")

So yes, regarding R116, clutching at straws.


Sure if you say so!

[detgnome]

I did indeed suggest to BHL management a location in Scotland :E but it wasn't Inverness in spite of what it has to offer. UK SAR does not have a centroid based on population. It's a mistake made regularly in other spheres, such as for mobile phone coverage where, a bit like SAR, it's not when people are at home that they most need the service! :ugh: Of about 2500 jobs per year, maybe 10 are in the major population centres of London and the West Midlands and about 600 are in the Highlands and Islands.

The location that I had suggested was South Queensferry since it possesses good transport links similar to Lee and already has nearby facilities that would assist one to broaden the type of SAR training provided thus enlarging the potential customer base: air, sea, river, mountain. Thinking big. :ok: It is about 300nm from the extreme reaches of the UK (and Ireland!) and a lot nearer the centroid of helicopter SAR activity than the Solent.

Yep, but that's still in Scotland.

[jimf671]

I suppose it is worth pointing out that the contract is not finalised or signed and they are at the preferred bidder stage that the UK were at in early 2011 and yet the UK's SARH25 fell apart and took until spring 2019 before the dust was finally settled on key aspects of the replacement contract. Should BHL be holding their breath? Is it conceivable that this is not over? I think if we look at the last four years and consider the proposed Air Corps involvement, the senate interventions, the number of people associated with Irish aviation who stopped taking calls, and so on, nothing would surprise me. However, I do hope they have it sorted.

[[email protected]]

Of about 2500 jobs per year, maybe 10 are in the major population centres of London and the West Midlands and about 600 are in the Highlands and Islands. Yes but many people don't want to live in the Highlands and Islands for a number of reasons or they already would.:)

I was talking about the people who would staff the training empire - mountain flying is a detachment task rather than a major element.

If you want central then reopen Finningley :E​​​​​​​

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Has the amalgamation of Bristow and ERA had any effect on the government's thinking ? Bristow has been Amrican for a long time but with ERA as the (apparently) dominant entity it would be no surprise if their corporate identity altered.

NEO

[jimf671]

Has the amalgamation of Bristow and ERA had any effect on the government's thinking ? Bristow has been Amrican for a long time but with ERA as the (apparently) dominant entity it would be no surprise if their corporate identity altered.

NEO

In Bristow Group's darkest days, you could see from their published results that the regular income from UK SAR was keeping the whole boat afloat. Without it, there is a good chance that there wouldn't be a Bristow now and the whole thing would have been sold off in often barely-viable pieces. (Is there a name for that? Like 'Babcocked'?) The plan now seems to be that, in SAR, BHL will take over the world and the impression is that the ERA people are on-board with that. So far so good. After watching three aircraft poached from the UK SAR fleet, I shall be interested to observe what happens when the time comes to equip a contract needing a substantial fleet of new-builds. Will the American group management learn from the substantial investments of 2014 to 2018 that saved their ar5es or will they completely screw it up?

[[email protected]]

After watching three aircraft poached from the UK SAR fleet, Do tell more Jim...

[jimf671]

Do tell more Jim...

First, a COVID-19 fleet was set up at Aberdeen and that included G-MCGD which was the last of the GapSAR aircraft and had been the 11th spare S-92A of the UK SAR fleet normally at Stornoway. GD next appeared as LN-OQY with CHC on the new interim Tromso contract. In reality, 98% availability isn't hard to maintain with modern aircraft when every base already has two aircraft and the hours are low.

Then BHL won the Kustwacht contract and needed three AW189: two at Den Helder and one at Midden Zeeland. So that was meant to be one new-build, the 11th spare (G-MCGN from Inverness, I know it well) from the UK SAR fleet, plus G-OENC from Norwich which was their last crew change 189 in the UK. NC went to Dyce and was supposed to re-appear as a SAR aircraft registered as PH-RSQ but in the closing stages that plan changed.

Vergiate new-build s/n89015 was registered as PH-SAR at the end of October and at the same time G-MCGN was changed to Dutch registry as PH-NCG. A few days later, when the collapse of the plan for G-OENC was clear (reasons unknown), G-MCGW, taken from St Athans, came off the UK register on the day the contract started and was seen in Den Helder the following day, soon to appear on the Dutch register as PH-BSR.

===========================================================

Only three SAR S-92A are needed for UKSAR2G and one might expect five to continue to be required for Ireland. However, there is an 18 month gap before seven SAR S-92A become available ... unless, ... you strip the second aircraft out of each of the five S-92A bases and the AW189s become the back-up and the crews are due to become AW189 and AW139 crews anyway.

[[email protected]]

Ah, robbing Peter to pay Paul - they must have learned that from the RAFSARF..........

[Hot_LZ]

Jim, a very good stab at Jessica Fletcher but not quite there.

There is a bit of rob Peter to pay Paul currently but the drag on aircraft production post COVID is one reason and the timing of contracts is the other. A very fine aircraft management taking place until a few factors iron out.

LZ

[jimf671]

Jim, a very good stab at Jessica Fletcher but not quite there.

There is a bit of rob Peter to pay Paul currently but the drag on aircraft production post COVID is one reason and the timing of contracts is the other. A very fine aircraft management taking place until a few factors iron out.

LZ

Just a scan of basic public resources. Interesting so far.

[Franks Town]

Not sure the 92 will make an appearance on the Irish Contract if it gets sorted . Bristow recent investor presentationJune 2023 shows the 189 in Irish Coast Guard livery. Last years Bristow presentation shows the Irish Coast Guard contract requirement as 5 super medium aircraft. So my bet is 5 by 189 with some sort of promise of support from either U.K. or Dutch contract. Wrap 5 189 and a fixed wing op around a 1 year transition plan for 4 bases. Not risky at all.

[Medevac999]

It looks like the appeal process is over.

and the outcome is?

[Franks Town]

The injunction was lifted late last week . An appeal was logged and came before the court yesterday. That court upheld the original decision to lift the injunction and allow the Minister sign the contract with the preferred bidder. I’d say they signed it in the lobby of the court as soon as the decision was read out.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41193253.html

The original decision to lift the injunction last week released its written judgement earlier this week.

https://www.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/fecf9db6-b833-431a-8c31-dc9cde957e6b/2023_IEHC_457.pdf/pdf#view=fitH

[jimf671]

... ... ...

The original decision to lift the injunction last week released its written judgement earlier this week.

https://www.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/fecf9db6-b833-431a-8c31-dc9cde957e6b/2023_IEHC_457.pdf/pdf#view=fitH

Notably:

"19. A helicopter manufacturer engaged by Bristow provided evidence that the transition period amounts to a ‘very compressed lead-time’ and that standard delivery terms for such helicopters would allow a period of ‘in excess of 20 months from order’ before the delivery of the helicopters."

"51. ... its helicopters are larger, have more cabin space and can fly a longer range without refuelling, than Bristow’s helicopters. ..."

"64. However, the fact that CHC can at one stage say that it is legally obliged to suspend the Service after 30th June, 2025 and so easily say that it is lawful for it to extend the Existing Contract after the 30th June, 2025, undermines the strength of its claim that it is lawful to extend the Existing Contract, when this Court is weighing up the balance of justice." :rolleyes:
.

[Franks Town]

Point 89 is the point at which the IRCG and Aviation Advisor assessment team depart from operational reality. Shocking to find out the assessment team had no Technical aircrew or medically qualified personal on the assessment team.

[212man]

Point 89 is the point at which the IRCG and Aviation Advisor assessment team depart from operational reality. Shocking to find out the assessment team had no Technical aircrew or medically qualified personal on the assessment team.
Where did you see the team's members listed?

[Winchingout]

Where did you see the team's members listed?
I'm unsure if the "evaluation board" names are listed anywhere but It is true there was no medical or TC experts involved in evaluating the bids.

[jimf671]

I'm unsure if the "evaluation board" names are listed anywhere but It is true there was no medical or TC experts involved in evaluating the bids.

So by which method was Ireland trying to shoot itself in the foot this time? Was it a rejection of the low paid help or another nationality issue or both? :ugh:

[Winchingout]

So by which method was Ireland trying to shoot itself in the foot this time? Was it a rejection of the low paid help or another nationality issue or both? :ugh:
I'm unsure what logic (if any) was used. It would appear that the current providers bid based on the experience of providing a combined SAR and HEMS service didn't appeal to the "evaluation board". I wish Bristow well with the transition, there are great staff in CHC Ireland, and they might not all agree it is a better solution but they will work to get the best for the CG

[Franks Town]

“ Low paid help” “ another nationality issue “
What are you on about?

[OvertHawk]

“ Low paid help” “ another nationality issue “
What are you on about?

I think he's suggesting that the powers that be were not interested in the opinions of the technical crews (rear crew) due to some form of snobbery. I believe there have also been suggestions of "if you're not Irish then we're not interested in your opinion " in the past.

[Franks Town]

https://d1io3yog0oux5.cloudfront.net/_6c716f415d845e28e758f10ac2a59998/bristowgroup/news/2023-08-22_BRISTOW_IRELAND_LIMITED_SIGNS_NEW_SAR_CONTRACT_539.pdf


Best of luck with this work of fiction timeline

[[email protected]]

"if you're not Irish then we're not interested in your opinion " in the past. Yes, it happened to a mate of mine who worked for them, he was a very experienced ex-mil QHI and NVGI and was completely ignored in favour of two nationals with no experience in either area when they wanted to introduce NVG.

[jimf671]

... ignored in favour of two nationals with no experience in either area when they wanted were pretending to introduce NVG.

There. Fixed that for you Crab.

A shameful episode.

[[email protected]]

Thanks Jim - good point as they failed miserably to make it happen - as we have discussed before, NVG would have saved some lives.

[Hot_LZ]

From what I believe, Bristow’s man who will run Ireland was one of those who joined to teach NVG but was forced out.

LZ

[Franks Town]

The original plan was to have Heli Ops provide 2 pilot and 1 technical crew instructor all ex RN. Started that way . Covid hit . Heli Ops pulled the plug on the contract.I thing the guy you have in mind was in BRS lived in Ireland and looked to jump in a direct entry Commander. Union got involved. It doesn’t happen and back to BRS he went.Now leading the charge on the BIL transition in Ireland and all things SAR . He was with Heli ops during the S92 transition back in the day. They then looked in house and got one ex RN ( English)and one ex AAC (Scottish)with NVIS experience . No nationals involved!. Both went to CAE for reval . Not saying it was the most efficient way as per the Comtroller General report. No nationals involved Crab the way you and Jimbo spell in out.. Just CHC employees from other countries .

[[email protected]]

Frank's Town - my friends involvement (or lack of it) was before it got to the stage of involving Heliops, they wanted to do it all in house to start with hence the trawl through their existing pilots and the pushing to the fore of two unqualified nationals instead of my mate.

I'm guessing eventually reality kicked in and they realised they need to go outside for a training provider - at which point Heliops got involved.

[Franks Town]

Well I hope your mate has taken his S92 and NVIS experience to pastures more tropical.

[[email protected]]

Sadly he sports a different pair of wings now

[chopper2004]

Mate of mine sent this by whatsapp,

https://scontent-lcy1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/369846239_10161556829376490_999464841718062474_n.jpg?_nc_cat =110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=YtyFWoCBb_8AX_dGxQG&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-1.xx&oh=00_AfBhTa3yqOk0aYail3fBKse8Jx_sooBvCo6FrBYNEDJ19w&oe=64F14F46

cheers

[Franks Town]

Nice aircraft if your a pilot or seated pax in the back. For SAR it’s a poor work place for Technical crew who are getting older and retiring pretty fast. I think the Irish Coast Guard and their external aviation advisor have bought new and shiny from a seller who has shown his wears in the U.K. and Dutch services.
I liken to know how TC guys in U.K. SAR feel having flown in the 92 while waiting for the 189 or came straight from SK into the back of a 189 feel about the work environment?

[Lioncopter]

Nice aircraft if your a pilot or seated pax in the back. For SAR it’s a poor work place for Technical crew who are getting older and retiring pretty fast. I think the Irish Coast Guard and their external aviation advisor have bought new and shiny from a seller who has shown his wears in the U.K. and Dutch services.
I liken to know how TC guys in U.K. SAR feel having flown in the 92 while waiting for the 189 or came straight from SK into the back of a 189 feel about the work environment?


Speaking to TC's, I would say its split at least 65% in favour of the 189 over the S92, for instance door entry with a stretcher is allot more easy in a 189, plus you don't get that random downdraft buffeting while on the wire just below the door due to the sponson like on the 92. Is it perfect in a 189, far from. Is it due to hopefully get better with a change of layout in the back... hopefully.

[Franks Town]

Not sure about taking a stretcher into a cabin with a low roof clearance is easier than taking it into a cabin you can step into in my experience. Poor posture for both crew with lower back and neck loading as you have to bend down while moving forward as a winchman while assisting with the cabin entry of a loaded stretcher . Kinda leads into crew age and the potential retirement of experience.

[minigundiplomat]

Not sure about taking a stretcher into a cabin with a low roof clearance is easier than taking it into a cabin you can step into in my experience. Poor posture for both crew with lower back and neck loading as you have to bend down while moving forward as a winchman while assisting with the cabin entry of a loaded stretcher . Kinda leads into crew age and the potential retirement of experience.

Asks a question, gets answer - doesn't like answer.

I have a feeling that nothing other than a complete reversal of the contract award will satisfy Frank.

[[email protected]]

I think the point about stretcher entry on the S-92 isn't the size of the cabin - it is the size of the aperture (small door) which would mean an end-on entry rather than a side entry for the stretcher.

[SimonK]

Asks a question, gets answer - doesn't like answer.

I have a feeling that nothing other than a complete reversal of the contract award will satisfy Frank.

:D well said.

[jimf671]

I think the point about stretcher entry on the S-92 isn't the size of the cabin - it is the size of the aperture (small door) which would mean an end-on entry rather than a side entry for the stretcher.

Could have been worse. The original S-92 design had to be lengthened to get that door width and could never have been a SAR tool if that original design had survived. It is worth remembering that a 1.4m cabin height is normal and that a tall helicopter you can stand up in is fine to fly around in but nobody wants to design them like that because at some stage you have to land the fkn thing!

[[email protected]]

at some stage you have to land the fkn thing never a problem in the Wessex:ok: A council house flown from the upstairs bog window:) And a brilliant SAR machine

[snakepit]

never a problem in the Wessex:ok: A council house flown from the upstairs bog window:) And a brilliant SAR machine

Great description crab. Mods, when can we have a 'like' button that also includes a laughing face

[Franks Town]

QUOTE=SimonK;11493595]:D well said.[/QUOTE]
calm down lads. The contract is signed . Smash and grab complete. I’m only asking a question about the work enviro of a 189 v 92 for the Tech crew. Considering the money , research and design put into the front end it’s a legitimate concern about the back of the aircraft. Door size is one thing but cabin roof height and cubic space available has to be considered . Stick 17 in the back then the size of the door might be a worry when some of your survivors on the floor unrestrained in close proximity to a large open door. Never mind trying to actually treat anyone injured. Again this is what IRCG asked for and this is what they scored. It’s obvious they wanted change so Bristow has a customer ripe for picking but it appears that IRCG has no one on the team from a medical or Technical crew back ground . So it’s all new tech with lots of new stuff and sure we don’t know what we are looking at but it looks good. No doubt they rated this scenario as high impact low likelihood, we’ll get away with it and hopefully be retired before it happens .
So my question still stands for someone to answer who has both 92 and 189 experience as a technical aircrew member. How’s the body holding up?

[Hot_LZ]

Again, you’re bringing up a scenario that from statistics hasn't been experienced and probably won’t. As Crab explained, if we’re talking those numbers they will task more than one helicopter. Ultimately it’s the CG/tax payer who is covering the cost of the service. They use empirical data to feed the bid requirement which isn’t 17.

From what I’ve heard from former colleagues in the U.K. the 189 has grown on them. There are quite a few older gentlemen who have time in Sea King, S92 and 189 and they’re still going strong. Stretcher entry is a lot easier and the working space in the cabin isn’t an issue.

LZ

[Franks Town]

Fair enough . As I said they are hoping it never happens. I hope your ex colleagues keep going strong.
Correct the requirement is 15 not 17. I just assumed the 2 technical aircrew who rescued the 15 would be in the cabin also. Let’s split the difference and call it 16. We’ll leave the winchman behind. Sure it’s happened before.
best of luck to Bristow and their future crew.

[norunway]

Department of Transport and IRCG engagement with stakeholders.
Q. Does TUPE apply?
A. Yes. As with any contract of this nature TUPE applies.

Bristow win contract with a more expensive solution, reduced range and time on scene, and now refusing to honour TUPE.

[[email protected]]

They were allowed to get away with that in UKSAR claiming that Mil pers weren't entitled to TUPE. If you replace one service provider with another it must surely apply in this case.

[Northernstar]

A new type is considered a significant change. As with UKSAR TUPE isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Ditto for Humberside when Bristow took over there, the great Norwich fiasco when Dancopter lost to CHC and the pilots all got no job and no redundancy either. Years in court and I can’t even remember how it ended.

Maybe the new provider does not want to inherit culture and attitudes.

Regarding range and time on scene claims for 189 v 92 maybe somebody might want to ask a current UKSAR pilot with time in both types for real world figures. I believe one has recently posted his 189 experience here.

[norunway]

A new type is considered a significant change. As with UKSAR TUPE isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Ditto for Humberside when Bristow took over there, the great Norwich fiasco when Dancopter lost to CHC and the pilots all got no job and no redundancy either. Years in court and I can’t even remember how it ended.

Maybe the new provider does not want to inherit culture and attitudes.

Regarding range and time on scene claims for 189 v 92 maybe somebody might want to ask a current UKSAR pilot with time in both types for real world figures. I believe one has recently posted his 189 experience here.

Do you suggest the culture and attitude of 1 or 2 individuals reflects the entire workforce.
I’m sure Bristow UK have culture and attitude issues of their own.
Change of type seen as a significant change is simply being used to undermine terms and conditions.

[Northernstar]

Change of type is significant to warrant a major project management requirement, change management, training needs analyses and large scale investment.
As seen in U.K. and NL SAR projects you cannot rely on extant crew used to doing everything a certain way a) making the grade or b) willingly adapting to new ways hence it is a method for TUPE not to be applied. If it’s within the scope for the new operator to flag as a way to avoid significant cost then so be it. That’s business. I’m sure if they are also changing a base then nobody has a leg to stand on.
We have seen, heard and read about culture and attitudes at length and no doubt if BRS are employing a manager who previously was in Ireland and found issues himself then that will play a part.
Given what has been written here regarding past experiences, the infamous events March 2017 and legacy from that including IRCG and DFT fallout then it is impossible to believe only 1 or 2 are of such an attitude etc.
Maybe @crab could elaborate on his friend’s experiences.

[[email protected]]

Maybe @crab could elaborate on his friend’s experiences if my mate was still with us I'm sure he would give you chapter and verse but sadly he isn't and I would only be passing on third hand info. I think enough has already been said about the nationalist attitudes regarding Irish SAR.

[snakepit]

They were allowed to get away with that in UKSAR claiming that Mil pers weren't entitled to TUPE. If you replace one service provider with another it must surely apply in this case.

I’m possibly missing your point Crab but it has tickled me somewhat 🤣. I can just imagine the scene, yes of course we are applying TUPE to all military folk, your salary will remain 50k a year pilots, happy yes?

No I thought not.

😉

[[email protected]]

The salaries for many pilots was far higher than that and the rearcrew had to take a big pay drop in most cases so TUPE would have helped plenty.

the only reason the pilots salaries went so high was to keep up with N Sea ones so the non-mil pilots coming across didn't take a pay cut.

["Running in"]

TUPE just couldn’t be applied from military to civvy SAR, sorry but it just wouldn’t work, at the end of the day you sign up to serve and there is just no direct comparison in civvy street., as unpalatable for some that it was.

Going back to the question of TC longevity across both types, I have operated both. The cabin entry with a stretcher is much easier in a 189. I would suggest more injuries have occurred in a 92 in this particular evolution . It’s also much easier to load and unload a stretcher from a 189. If you think a stretcher in and out of the ramp on a 92 is optimal then, sorry you are wrong.
No one has mentioned the power limitations of the 92….I’m surprised, since TREV 15 was issued the power margins and associated drop down heights mean the 92 is limited when training much more so than the 189. Same engines smaller aircraft- better performance.
The 92 is more stable in the hills, it makes a better Wokka Wokka noise, and it can potentially carry more people. Kit layout is never a problem.
The 189 has better visibility for TC and pax (MR etc) it could have been better with TC input at the design stages in a few areas in my opinion. Kit stowage is a challenge but it works.
Both types have their merits but for winching the 189 is a better aircraft in my opinion.

[[email protected]]

It's not a question of signing up to serve - look how many left to join Bristow.

It's a question of one group of personnel providing a service being replaced with another group of personnel providing the same service or one service provider being replaced by another to provide the same service ie UKSAR.

[212man]

It's not a question of signing up to serve - look how many left to join Bristow.

It's a question of one group of personnel providing a service being replaced with another group of personnel providing the same service or one service provider being replaced by another to provide the same service ie UKSAR.

Pretty sure TUPE only applies to civilian contracts, so any reference to a military service provider is moot.

[[email protected]]

Plenty thought otherwise but it didn't happen and so is irrelevant now. The regulations do include public sector to private sector transfer of services.

[Franks Town]

Bristow certainly did well out of managed transition on UKSAR. Experienced crews at a knock down price. They have continued the knock down price model for crews with the Dutch contract and now trying it on with the Irish win.

[jimf671]

The final number was 78.

[Ulich McGee]

The Irish Coast Guard will carry out a two-hour stand down of its helicopters due to “elevated” levels of stress among pilots and staff who are concerned for their jobs following a company takeover.

CHC Ireland, who hold the contract for search and rescue helicopters for the Irish Coast Guard have called a two-hour safety stand down for their four AWSAR (All Weather Search and Rescue) bases in Sligo, Shannon, Dublin and Waterford from 12pm to 2pm this Friday.

It comes as a result of CHC’s handover to Bristow Ireland Ltd, commencing in July 2025, after they were awarded the Search and Rescue (SAR) contract by the Department of Transport.

A spokesperson for CHC Ireland said the “extremely complex” handover has left the 155 staff, comprised of pilots, co-pilots, winch operators, engineers and administrators across the four bases “very anxious” concerning the future of their employment.

Staff and unions are trying to confirm the retention of staff which is covered under the international regulation TUPE. However, Bristow Ireland Ltd are yet to open dialogue with CHC Ireland concerning the future employment of staff at all four bases.

“Aviators, who are under a licence, have a legal obligation to step down and step back when they are feeling stress which could impact their safety and the safety of those they rescue,” a spokesperson for CHC Ireland said.
CHC Ireland called this Friday’s two-hour stand down after “elevated concern” was raised through a process over the last six weeks, which enabled staff to come forward to express themselves.

“It has become more and more obvious that they are worried about their future,” they said.

They stressed that the 155 staff are looking for a “reassurance” and for the process to be sped up, with the stand down brought in as a means of “refocusing” stressed staff.

Operations will be delivered on a limited basis between 12pm-2pm today.

Helicopters and staff in Shannon and Dublin will be stood down for the first hour, while Sligo and Waterford will be brought offline during the second hour.
During these times two Helicopters will be online for the duration of the Safety Stand Down.

“They are hoping CHC will support and pursue TUPE for their jobs, so they can get back to basics.

“You can’t send people out to save others when they are under stress. It is not a cause for emergency yet, these people just want to do the best possible job,” added the spokesperson.

Bristow Ireland Ltd were contacted for comment.

[Northernstar]

A 2 hour stand down…?

Politicians and Joe Public may be fooled by this nonsense but how low will CHC Ireland stoop? And this cannot just be management driven, unions and crew are culpable in this scenario. Trying to make political statements just because they expect to be immune to the rationale of industry and business!
As suggested clearly many times previously they haven’t covered themselves in glory pre or post R116 tragedy.
There was political pressure before to keep their South Eastern base afloat when by anyone other European nations planning the contract could clearly run with just 3 bases.

[jimf671]

Oh the stress, the stress, of brand new latest spec aircraft, new type rating, being able to see where you're going with NVG, and real top cover. The poor dears. How ever will they manage? :rolleyes:

[212man]

Oh the stress, the stress, of brand new latest spec aircraft, new type rating, being able to see where you're going with NVG, and real top cover. The poor dears. How ever will they manage? :rolleyes:
but it won’t be them doing it!

[Hot_LZ]

It would be if they applied for the current openings…

LZ

[jimf671]

Value: €670mn +23% VAT

Govt press release states 6 x AW189 but court case reveals only 5 x AW189 to be ordered, so where do we think the sixth aircraft is coming from?

Bristow at Dyce tried to convert the last of their three O&G crew change aircraft, G-OENC, into a SAR variant for the Kustwacht contract but it all went pear shaped and they had to steal another AW189 from the UK SAR fleet. :mad: Now we find that G-OENC has been de-registered and transferred to the Irish register on 20231110. (Irish register changes for November not yet available.) Please, BIL, give it to Leonardo to do this time. :rolleyes:

Bases still:
Sligo, Shannon, Waterford and Dublin.

FW service will comprise:
2 x King Air fixed-wing aircraft based at Shannon Airport.

Periodicity:
10 years in the case of the helicopter service.
5 years in the case of fixed wing aircraft element of the service.
Options to extend both elements out to 13 years. :rolleyes:

Provision for the possibility of the Air Corps doing the fixed wing element of the service after five years. :ugh:

Service commencement: 2025 07 01.

What else do we know?

[Franks Town]

all going according to plan 🫣


https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2023-12-13/3/#s4

[jimf671]

Air Corps mafia still at it. The idea that they question Bristows delivery record but not the Air Corps' is nuts!

CHC transitioned-in a decade ago presumably knowing (but perhaps not fully understanding) that one day they might be required to transition-out. :ugh:

(Andy's ears will have been burning but he'll be used to it by now. :rolleyes:)

[OvertHawk]

Air Corps mafia still at it. The idea that they question Bristows delivery record but not the Air Corps' is nuts!

)

My thoughts exactly!

[Franks Town]

Maybe Andy should go in and explain how he scored the award . That would shut everyone up.

[Northernstar]

"Lives will be lost. We have already lost four very brave people." This shows the ignorance of the whole effort. R116 crashed due to the outgoing operators poor procedures, lack of oversight by the IAA, whom he wants to micro manage this, and overall crew error and demonstrably poor training and attitudes. Beggars belief.

"If a helicopter was grounded for a reason and if the Air Corps was available, they could take that over." Is this guy for real? The IAC were removed from all SAR in Ireland for a good reason. Let us not forget them cooking the 61 loaned to them and smashing the tailwheel of the spare cab.

[212man]

"Lives will be lost. We have already lost four very brave people." This shows the ignorance of the whole effort. R116 crashed due to the outgoing operators poor procedures, lack of oversight by the IAA, whom he wants to micro manage this, and overall crew error and demonstrably poor training and attitudes. Beggars belief.

"If a helicopter was grounded for a reason and if the Air Corps was available, they could take that over." Is this guy for real? The IAC were removed from all SAR in Ireland for a good reason. Let us not forget them cooking the 61 loaned to them and smashing the tailwheel of the spare cab.

Let’s not forget R111 either!

[OvertHawk]

Let’s not forget R111 either!

I'm not going to "like" that post because the event it refers to is tragic.

But anyone that thinks that the Air Corps is the answer to this situation rather than either CHC or Bristow - who both have proven track records of delivering SAR (short term logistics and politics notwithstanding) is deluded.

remind me:

How did the Air Corps EC135 HEMS operation fare in the early days?

Why was R166 actually airborne the night that it crashed into Blackrock?

And we won't even talk about what happened during (and after) their positioning flight in the 139 from Italy to Ireland!!!

[[email protected]]

The Irish Air Corps do seem rather fond of waving their willies in this contest - some desperate senior officers looking to further their careers?

[OvertHawk]

The Irish Air Corps do seem rather fond of waving their willies in this contest - some desperate senior officers looking to further their careers?

Not even sure if it's the Air Corps Crab?

It seems to be certain politicians flapping their gums about it. I think that there are probably a good number of people in the Air Corps quietly sitting there thinking "please shut up - we want nothing to do with this!!!"

[212man]

I'm not going to "like" that post because the event it refers to is tragic.

I certainly wasn’t trying to make light of it, and I fully agree it was a horrible event. But, not in many people’s conscious as it occurred before the social media and 24 hours news era.

[OvertHawk]

I certainly wasn’t trying to make light of it, and I fully agree it was a horrible event. But, not in many people’s conscious as it occurred before the social media and 24 hours news era.

Never suggested that you were 212 - Was simply explaining why i didn't click the button.

It's a relevant thing to share which you're right that many people may not have been aware of.

[funfinn2000]

It was also kept quiet that they dinged the tail off a lamp post with the EC135 in the early days of their Hems. but that wasn't reported.

[funfinn2000]

The senior officers are just waiting for a retirement job in the IAA and get their photos taken on LinkedIn.

[Helipolarbear]

Great description crab. Mods, when can we have a 'like' button that also includes a laughing face
:ugh:

[Langball]

Can't understand all the negative comments about the IAC. They have been operating helicopters for sixty years and their safety statistics, while not perfect, compare favorably with any other similar organisation. One fatal helicopter accident and another hull loss (non fatal). Is there any other helicopter operator who can match that?.

[jimf671]

Reports are coming in that loss of sense of humour has only been occuring in the Senate.
Rescuing Santa

[Franks Town]

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0115/1426575-irish-coast-guard/

[Northernstar]

That secures the transfer of the problematic attitudes and legacy turmoil then. It just got more entertaining. This will be a good watch.

When the guys in DH work out the pay gap while doing the same job on the same type that'll cause more fallout there. I hear they will be sharing the same copilot head of training for the 189 with their limited SAR experience.

[Franks Town]

That secures the transfer of the problematic attitudes and legacy turmoil then. .

I don’t think Bristow will be that bad and I’m sure they will settle in.
I feel sorry for the current DH crews and previous NHV crew. There is certainly no entertainment in how they got treated.

[[email protected]]

Reports are coming in that loss of sense of humour has only been occuring in the Senate.
Rescuing Santa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEsKPqAJRd8)
Oh dear, that was a painful watch..........don't give up your day jobs in the IAC:)

[funfinn2000]

There's a lot of good lads in Irish SAR but unfortunately there's a few bad Toxic apples in the cart. I wonder will BHS do their due diligence on who they import to confirm that theres no misrepresentation of experience.

[206Fan]

Is this the first of the 189s to arrive in Ireland?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/523154341104862/permalink/7091535974266633/

[jimf671]

Is this the first of the 189s to arrive in Ireland?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/523154341104862/permalink/7091535974266633/

G-OENC was the last of the standard crew change AW189 in Bristow's UK fleet and was converted to SAR variant for the Kustwacht-NL contract at Den Helder & Midden Zeeland. As notified nearby by another ppruner, that conversion was disabled by the lack of timely paperwork from Leonardo so another SAR variant was borrowed from the UK SAR fleet at the last minute for the Dutch. G-OENC was then transferred to the Irish register in November as EI-HKT. It is believed to be the only AW189 available for training and preparation for the Irish contract at this time. Although not yet a full SAR fit, it is believed it can fulfil all the technical requirements for the Irish contract except the deicing specification which on EI-HKT is only Limited Icing Protection System (LIPS) while it is believed that FIPS (Full) is required. The matter of deicing spec might lead one to expect a swap with one of the Dutch fleet at some future stage.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shanair/53461660313/in/photostream/

[206Fan]

G-OENC was the last of the standard crew change AW189 in Bristow's UK fleet and was converted to SAR variant for the Kustwacht-NL contract at Den Helder & Midden Zeeland. As notified nearby by another ppruner, that conversion was disabled by the lack of timely paperwork from Leonardo so another SAR variant was borrowed from the UK SAR fleet at the last minute for the Dutch. G-OENC was then transferred to the Irish register in November as EI-HKT. It is believed to be the only AW189 available for training and preparation for the Irish contract at this time. Although not yet a full SAR fit, it is believed it can fulfil all the technical requirements for the Irish contract except the deicing specification which on EI-HKT is only Limited Icing Protection System (LIPS) while it is believed that FIPS (Full) is required. The matter of deicing spec might lead one to expect a swap with one of the Dutch fleet at some future stage.


Jim,

Thanks for the information!

[chopper2004]

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f9647-government-announces-preferred-tenderer-for-the-provision-of-the-new-irish-coast-guard-search-and-rescue-aviation-contract/#

and now Bristow has IOC from the IAA

https://www.bristowgroup.com/news-media/press-releases/detail/549/bristow-takes-significant-step-towards-next-generation-of?

cheers

[Medevac999]

And Bristow crews have just voted for industrial action!

[Northernstar]

It's the buzz in the 'teen for sure. Did we expect it? Not really as Bristow usually the last to strike. CHC on the other hand....

I really feel for the DH NLSAR 189 guys, they are absolutely wildly underpaid and nowhere near UK or Irish pay. Don’t count the head of training NL and IRL copilot in that equation. Wonder if they’re still topping up their salary doing 169 and 902 tests on the side…..

It will be no doubt closely watched by the various trouble makers across the Irish sea who have spent years feathering their entitled nests and pulling sickies. Nobody in the UK resorted to that, yet....

[212man]

and now Bristow has IOC from the IAA

https://www.bristowgroup.com/news-media/press-releases/detail/549/bristow-takes-significant-step-towards-next-generation-of?

cheers
with no registered address!

[twinstar_ca]

BZ, lads to the Irish Air Corps!!! :ok::cool:

[PlasticCabDriver]

Bristow strike dates announced:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/business/6379583/strike-dates-set-for-aberdeen-bristow-helicopter-workers/

[212man]

Bristow strike dates announced:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/business/6379583/strike-dates-set-for-aberdeen-bristow-helicopter-workers/
Are Bristow SAR on different terms to O&G now? Any scales available in the public domain? CHC NL were on strike today.

[finalchecksplease]

Are Bristow SAR on different terms to O&G now? Any scales available in the public domain? CHC NL were on strike today.
No except for the people left that Tupe'd across from CHC's UK SAR operations back in the day and AFAIK no pay scales in the public domain.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Can't understand all the negative comments about the IAC. They have been operating helicopters for sixty years and their safety statistics, while not perfect, compare favorably with any other similar organisation. One fatal helicopter accident and another hull loss (non fatal). Is there any other helicopter operator who can match that?.
Alouette 202 written off, Gazelle written off, EC 135 rebuilt to new after forced landing and multiple dings and bashes over the years, including a few that didnt make the papers.

[HeliMannUK]

Another Twist (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/03/04/company-brings-new-challenge-over-800m-irish-coast-guard-rescue-service-contract/)

[jimf671]

Another Twist (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/03/04/company-brings-new-challenge-over-800m-irish-coast-guard-rescue-service-contract/)

On the basis of the decision made previously by the court regarding the continuation of a vital public safety service, and the scarcity of options available, might CHC be exposing itself to potential civil punishment or even prosecution?

[snakepit]

On the basis of the decision made previously by the court regarding the continuation of a vital public safety service, and the scarcity of options available, might CHC be exposing itself to potential civil punishment or even prosecution?

Certainly seems like a sure way to ‘bite the hand that feeds’ so to speak?

[chopper2004]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x2000/img_1567_cacb61dc290b0e8be9655c45d543a8bba04fd96d.jpeg

cheers

[[email protected]]

Note that the move to paramedic status for SAR rearcrew in UK was championed by the RAF 20 years ago.:ok:

[Winchingout]

The current operator is licenced to Advanced Paramedic standard and have almost a base worth of SAR Advanced Paramedics operating on the line. These crews will have to revert to Paramedic status under the new service. The contract requirement is Paramedic which is not the same as the Paramedic level in UK.

[TUPE]

The current operator is licenced to Advanced Paramedic standard and have almost a base worth of SAR Advanced Paramedics operating on the line. These crews will have to revert to Paramedic status under the new service. The contract requirement is Paramedic which is not the same as the Paramedic level in UK.
How do the levels differ?

[Winchingout]

How do the levels differ?
For simplicity the AP and UK Paramedic are closely matched. They are Advanced life support providers (ALS) and can give lifesaving and pain meds intravenously as well as intubate to protect someones airway if appropriate. Irish Paramedics cannot do either of these things and are a Basic Life Support grade (BLS). For comparison in terms of skillset and medications Irish Paramedic is above UK Technician but below UK Paramedic, and UK Paramedic is above Irish Paramedic but below Irish Advanced Paramedic. Bristow getting accreditation for Paramedic level of care is a contract requirement and has been for about 15 years. CHC evidenced a need in approx 50% of cases for a higher level of care and provided such care with the existing qualified Advanced Paramedics with the blessing of the Irish Coastguard. Seems a retrograde step having the resource but not using it imo.

[OvertHawk]

For simplicity the AP and UK Paramedic are closely matched. They are Advanced life support providers (ALS) and can give lifesaving and pain meds intravenously as well as intubate to protect someones airway if appropriate. Irish Paramedics cannot do either of these things and are a Basic Life Support grade (BLS). For comparison in terms of skillset and medications Irish Paramedic is above UK Technician but below UK Paramedic, and UK Paramedic is above Irish Paramedic but below Irish Advanced Paramedic. Bristow getting accreditation for Paramedic level of care is a contract requirement and has been for about 15 years. CHC evidenced a need in approx 50% of cases for a higher level of care and provided such care with the existing qualified Advanced Paramedics with the blessing of the Irish Coastguard. Seems a retrograde step having the resource but not using it imo.


In such circumstance you would expect Bristow to start with what is required by the contract and once they're set up, if they have suitable numbers of AP qualified staff, an identified need and the blessing of the Coastguard they may be in a position to increase the level of service in much he same way CHC did?

You can't expect an incoming contractor to provide a higher than required service from the outset when they don't know how many staff will transfer across and what qualifications they will hold.

This sounds like people trying to score points on technicalities.

[Winchingout]

In such circumstance you would expect Bristow to start with what is required by the contract and once they're set up, if they have suitable numbers of AP qualified staff, an identified need and the blessing of the Coastguard they may be in a position to increase the level of service in much he same way CHC did?

You can't expect an incoming contractor to provide a higher than required service from the outset when they don't know how many staff will transfer across and what qualifications they will hold.

This sounds like people trying to score points on technicalities.
I certainly don't disagree with your main points, and only time will tell. The application to the regulator could have encompassed both grades. The admin process would have been the same but with some extra measures for storage of controlled drugs, nothing difficult. The staff are coming across, this has all been reported on already. The very same SAR Crew are taking their Paramedic and Advanced Paramedic licences across to Bristow. They will operate from their own bases using new aircraft for the same customer.
I can't agree with your point about point scoring. It has everything to do with tending to sick and injured people and giving them the best care available. My post above following the press release was to highlight while its a milestone it is still a retrograde step to the current service. This certainly is not Bristows fault, the Irish Coastguard themselves need to take their heads out of the sand and take an interest in the service they are paying for.

[OvertHawk]

Winchingout.

Thanks for your comment and clarification.

I'm sorry that i suggested that you were trying to score points - It's simply that with a thread like this it's easy to jump to conclusions about someone's motivation for a particular post. There is a lot of politics involved in this tender.

It's very apparent from your follow-up post that you're not point scoring but rather you're identifying a point of actual concern for which I thank you! :ok:

OH

[Winchingout]

OvertHawk

I appreciate your post. The crews involved care about doing the job, and want to do it well, that's all. Everyone wants to see the transition succeed and accepts it may not be perfect from the off. Its a big project with many complex issues to be brought together on a tight timetable. Despite comments I've read elsewhere, there are many within the Irish operation that will go the extra mile to help get it across the line.