China's C919 maiden commercial flight

[artee]

China’s first domestically produced passenger jet makes maiden commercial flight (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/28/chinas-first-domestically-produced-passenger-jet-makes-maiden-commercial-flight)

"China’s first domestically produced passenger jet took off on its maiden commercial flight on Sunday, a milestone event in the nation’s decades-long effort to compete with western rivals in the air.

Beijing hopes the C919 commercial jetliner will challenge foreign models like the Boeing 737 MAX and the Airbus A320, though many of its parts are sourced from abroad.

Its first homegrown jetliner with mass commercial potential would also cut the country’s reliance on foreign technology as ties with the West deteriorate..."

I can't say I'll be rushing to be one of the first passengers.

[Capt Fathom]

I can't say I'll be rushing to be one of the first passengers



Any particular reason why not?

[artee]

Any particular reason why not?

I'd like to see an established safety record first.

[Capt Fathom]

I'd like to see an established safety record first.

Define an established safety record.

[artee]

Define an established safety record.
I'm not being scientific about this, I'd just rather not fly on one until they have a track record. Unreasonable, possibly.

[DaveReidUK]

A tad over 6 years since the C919's maiden flight, and almost 6 months since the first delivery to the launch customer, would suggest that all hasn't gone terribly well in the meantime

[Superpilot]

We are going to poke fun at the Chinese venture into aerospace (naturally) but one thing you need to know about Chinese culture is that they don't like failure, as to fail means to lose face. And so their attitude to engineering right now will be way more robust than Boeing's over the last decade.

[Less Hair]

Quite a progress compared to the recent ARJ21 but I am not sure if they could do a CR929 widebody alone? Let's wait for their first export customers.

[Pain in the R's]

It would be a brave western airline to order this aircraft. With the Chinese government continuing to make threats against Taiwan orders might never be delivered.

[DaveReidUK]

We are going to poke fun at the Chinese venture into aerospace (naturally) but one thing you need to know about Chinese culture is that they don't like failure, as to fail means to lose face. And so their attitude to engineering right now will be way more robust than Boeing's over the last decade.

I'm not casting any aspersions on Chinese engineering But, at the end of the day, it's not good engineering that sells airliners, but many other factors.

[averow]

I can see it now" "Please hold for the next available airliner salesperson..."

[YRP]

A tad over 6 years since the C919's maiden flight, and almost 6 months since the first delivery to the launch customer, would suggest that all hasn't gone terribly well in the meantime

I don't know if that is the correct interpretation. It might be but it might not. Lots of possibilities: 1. they took the time to get it right, 2. reduced investment / team size, 3. inexperienced team that was learning as they went, 4. difficulties, as you said. And probably a few others.

From my experience in engineering development (electronics / high tech), getting out on schedule / fast can be a good or bad thing, often means immature management: gotta get out fast, worry about problems later, optimistic rather than careful. Design verification can be done _properly_ or going through the motions. Eg the testing on the Max.

I respect a team that takes the time rather than rushes. (If that was the case).

Not meaning to be critical of your comment, just been in this type of situation a lot.

[Ben_S]

A tad over 6 years since the C919's maiden flight, and almost 6 months since the first delivery to the launch customer, would suggest that all hasn't gone terribly well in the meantime

Doesn't seem terrible given similar timescales are likely for sticking a new wing and engines on the 777...

[Asturias56]

or converting the 767 to a tanker...................

[DaveReidUK]

iMVgXuDQNu8

Even after allowing for the US bias, still a pretty realistic assessment of China's troubled commercial aircraft manufacturing industry, and COMAC in particular.

[GlobalNav]

Any particular reason why not?
The Chinese did everything they could to avoid full compliance with certification standards, pencil-whipping wherever possible.
The FAA gave up trying to help them. Their heart wasn’t in it, only their pocketbook.

[hans brinker]

Any particular reason why not?

I think I can see where you are coming from. I did a lot of home improvement, and every bit of the parts I used were miC. All certified safe and legal. But a casual search on YouTube for escalator/elevator deaths will show a lot of videos from china.

[First_Principal]

I'm not casting any aspersions on Chinese engineering But, at the end of the day, it's not good engineering that sells airliners, but many other factors.

Tex Johnston would have you believe it's tipping people upside down (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/60-years-ago-the-famous-boeing-707-barrel-roll-over-lake-washington/) in a machine that sells them...

FP.

[Australopithecus]

Interesting situation that China finds itself in. A natural customer would be Russia after the war, but sanctions on engines and avionics are likely to be long-lasting. China itself cannot rattle sabres across the Taiwan strait for the same reasons.

While I personally eschew Chinese products where I have an option I don’t doubt their engineering prowess per se.

[His dudeness]

And so their attitude to engineering right now will be way more robust than Boeing's over the last decade.

Which is a very, very low bar set.

[GrahamO]

We are going to poke fun at the Chinese venture into aerospace (naturally) but one thing you need to know about Chinese culture is that they don't like failure, as to fail means to lose face.

Which is why they have a tendency to hide bad news and failure rather than not have it in the first place. Bankruptcy and failure is quite common in China, but you wont hear about it. hardly a good sign for an industry that needs openness and honesty.

And so their attitude to engineering right now will be way more robust than Boeing's over the last decade.

China doesn't do 'engineering' - it does 'copying' without necessarily the insight into why things are the way they are - and then buries the failures.

[Asturias56]

"China doesn't do 'engineering' - it does 'copying' without necessarily the insight into why things are the ay they are - and then buries the failures."

I can remember British and American car and electronics firms saying the same thing about Japan in the '60's

[Noxegon]

China, like the Japanese before them, learns from each iteration of a product they make.

Those throwing stones would do well to remember the 737 MAX debacle.

[hunterboy]

I’d say the big problem would be when the Chinese govt decides to flex its foreign policy by restricting the export of spare parts and the like. Much like the US has done with Russia.

[MENELAUS]

China’s first domestically produced passenger jet makes maiden commercial flight (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/28/chinas-first-domestically-produced-passenger-jet-makes-maiden-commercial-flight)

"China’s first domestically produced passenger jet took off on its maiden commercial flight on Sunday, a milestone event in the nation’s decades-long effort to compete with western rivals in the air.

Beijing hopes the C919 commercial jetliner will challenge foreign models like the Boeing 737 MAX and the Airbus A320, though many of its parts are sourced from abroad.

Its first homegrown jetliner with mass commercial potential would also cut the country’s reliance on foreign technology as ties with the West deteriorate..."

I can't say I'll be rushing to be one of the first passengers.

You’re damn tooting.

[WideScreen]

Any particular reason why not?
China is completely covered with carpets, under which failures are wiped (by the decree of its authoritarian ruler). Including those who dare to make public those failures. See what happened around the Covid-19 origin (both location and existence), the millions of denied deaths, when Covid went haywire in China, etc.

See, what got done after the first High-Speed train accident in China: The carriages got "buried" by a local contractor, just to wipe out the traces.

See the extremely bad, low, and dangerous quality of all the "cheap" crap coming from China.

Not to say, that the long-term development of technical ingenuity does not co-exist with a society where the major task is to avoid "loss of face", where lying is the norm, where extensive punishment is practiced as retaliation for failures, where politics have a major and final say about "technics", etc.

The same fundamental reasons why the Russian military turned out to be completely dysfunctional.

We saw with the MAX, what happens when things are brushed under the carpet, and Boeing still denies it, etc.

[Smilin_Ed]

Not a lot of info on Captain Fathom's background.

[dr dre]

China’s DJI accounts for 75% of the world drone/personal UAV market, and is considered to be the leader in new drone technology. If you know someone with a drone it’s probably a Chinese one, and they’ve outclassed US or Euro companies on the global market.

These aren’t the days of Tupolev or Ilyushin.

[WideScreen]

China’s DJI accounts for 75% of the world drone/personal UAV market, and is considered to be the leader in new drone technology. If you know someone with a drone it’s probably a Chinese one, and they’ve outclassed US or Euro companies on the global market.

These aren’t the days of Tupolev or Ilyushin.
Yep, those areas where the politics did not interfere with the tech, manage to flourish in China. Larger companies, adhering to Western engineering and production methods, manage to grow into an international market. Though, let's be realistic about this: The "cheap" (affordable on the world market) engineering/production is largely due to slave-labor alike circumstances for the staff.

The same reasons why ME carriers can be successful: Slave labor circumstances with 24/7 airport use, ignoring the health of people living around the airports.

[ATC Watcher]

Yep, those areas where the politics did not interfere with the tech, manage to flourish in China. Larger companies, adhering to Western engineering and production methods, manage to grow into an international market. Though, let's be realistic about this: The "cheap" (affordable on the world market) engineering/production is largely due to slave-labor alike circumstances for the staff.

The same reasons why ME carriers can be successful: Slave labor circumstances with 24/7 airport use, ignoring the health of people living around the airports.
Absolutely! and you forgot to add total disregard for environment, which will become the most important priority in the years to come.

[ATC Watcher]

The C919 was described 10 years ago as the wonder that would put Airbus and Boeing in their knees beacause it would cost a fraction of its werstern counterparts. I wonder what the selling price would be today to an outside China airline ?
And similarly the the Sukhoi SSJ , a lot of its componnents depend on werstern parts, which inflated its end price, and it was definitively not a success as expected . so we'll see if this one has a better chance.

As to Chinese only copying , this morning France announced the opening of a factory nickmamed the "Airbus of car batteries" ( joint venture between France, Germany and Italy) , interestingly it says that the technology and the machines/robots used in this fcatory are imported from China,and South Korea, and only these 2 countries have the knowhow and the expertise in this field .A complex transfer of technology agreement had to be put in place.

[WideScreen]

Absolutely! and you forgot to add total disregard for environment, which will become the most important priority in the years to come.
Actually, my initial text did have that in too, though I removed it because it's a bit of a mixed bag. However, I absolutely agree with you, these third-world countries still have little understanding of the "environment". Especially the fact, that EVERYBODY has a small contribution to this.

Just today, I caught a 6-year-old just in time, to prevent her from throwing an empty Tetra pack "just on the roadside" and directed her, to hold the pack until at home and throw it in the garbage can. Next time, when I am not there, she'll probably revert to her normal habit, though let's hope, when older she starts to make the connection between the mess on the street and people's behavior ;-)

[Hartington]

China overseas politics may come into play, particularly in Africa. Given their "investment" in infrastructure there I wonder if a few aircraft will also appear?

[WideScreen]

China overseas politics may come into play, particularly in Africa. Given their "investment" in infrastructure there I wonder if a few aircraft will also appear?
Maybe, with the same quality aspects as with the infrastructure items, built by China quality contractors, based on politically motivated China government (backed) loans.

Combine the excellent China quality with the inherent African tendency to properly maintain what one has and the long technical life of these items, being far beyond the time required to pay off the loans for these items, and one can expect all these countries to be in for a very prosperous future. And at the same time giving China the opportunity to reinvest the money they get back on loan pay off's. Or do I miss something?

I do hear stories about large-scale loan restructuring for these African countries, with repayment terms beyond the time horizon, or just outright confiscating the properties (ehh buy for default value), and internal China messages about (super) large scale mortgage restructuring in such a way that the grandchildren still pay off the mortgages of their grandparents. All these items are financially very healthy. Or do I miss something?

Of course, the red carpet is being used to brush away unwanted items.

Gives me visions of the USSR "selling" their fighter aircraft to poor Asian/African countries, just to find out, these turned into scrap, not long after delivery.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think the C919 is a good example of the limits of the current Chinese political system. All the hard parts are 100% Western technology and yet it is still effectively obsolete on its first day of revenue service. I don't think it is a "bad" airplane in that it should be able transport passengers with a acceptable level of safety between domestic airports and it is probably certifiable by Western regulators, but it will never be economically viable. Even if the airplane was sold at a huge discount the life cycle costs, high CASM, and likely low OTP, make it unviable.

Once again the failure of a top down politically command driven system has demonstrated the superiority of a rules based open and free society in creating innovation. Capitalism has plenty of problems but the Chinese system is worse in every way.

[ATC Watcher]

China overseas politics may come into play, particularly in Africa. Given their "investment" in infrastructure there I wonder if a few aircraft will also appear?
Besides Ethiopian and (former) South African who esle in Africa is buying new jet transports from manufacturers? For the reasons explained by WideScreen I do not think C919s will see the light of Africa until they become old and cheaply available.

[Flying Clog]

Having operated for an Asian based airline for 2 decades, and witnessed the shenanigans that go on, particularly with China, and literally anything it produces or attempts to develop.... the acid test, as always, has to be, would you put your family on a Chinese built jet operated by Chinese crew.

The answer to that has to be, an emphatic no way!

[neville_nobody]

Isn’t this thing just a flying Patent Infringement?

[DaveReidUK]

Isn’t this thing just a flying Patent Infringement?

OK, I'll bite - what patent(s) do you have in mind ?

[megan]

what patent(s) do you have in mindI'm reminded of when Airbus started out, they asked Boeing for the research done on optimum engine/wing interface, no deal said Boeing. The patents office is full of Boeing patents, one I found among the thousands was for hydraulic powered controls, first used on the P-38 ailerons. As for infringement, patents do lapse.

[atakacs]

Having operated for an Asian based airline for 2 decades, and witnessed the shenanigans that go on, particularly with China, and literally anything it produces or attempts to develop.... the acid test, as always, has to be, would you put your family on a Chinese built jet operated by Chinese crew.

The answer to that has to be, an emphatic no way!
Maybe not today but 10-20 years from now quite likekly

[ATC Watcher]

one I found among the thousands was for hydraulic powered controls, first used on the P-38 ailerons. As for infringement, patents do lapse.
Yes they do, but , to be pedantic.on who was fist, it was not the P38, the hydraulic powered flight controls were invented and patented by Rene Leduc in France in 1937 and first used on its first ramjet fighter (Leduc 010)
The patent continued long after the manufacturer stopped its aircraft production in 1958 and it brought steady revenue to the the company for many decades.afrerwards. ( source Rene Leduc biography)

[Asturias56]

Isn’t this thing just a flying Patent Infringement?


People (mainly in the USA) said that about Airbus when they started out

[pithblot]

MENELAUS
You’re damn tooting.

Brevity.

I like it.

[Propellerhead]

It looks a nice aircraft on the face of it. The flight deck seems to have copied bits from both Airbus and Boeing and the avionics are supplied from the west. The side stick is pure Airbus obviously but the MCP panel looks more Boeing.

Does anyone have an English FCOM for it? Be interested to know how far the FBW has gone - does the pilot retain full authority or is it more Airbus? Looks like the thrust levers move unlike Airbus?

I suspect it may turn out to be decently safe but think I’d wait a couple of years before making a judgement.

[newscaster]

Possibly the first review https://youtu.be/nAwtVWwqnW0

[CargoOne]

Besides Ethiopian and (former) South African who esle in Africa is buying new jet transports from manufacturers? For the reasons explained by WideScreen I do not think C919s will see the light of Africa until they become old and cheaply available.

You would be surprised but actually there are many. African carriers have placed 305 orders since 2010, 40 different carriers. Obviously it is less than RYR alone but it is still a number.

[GlobalNav]

Maybe not today but 10-20 years from now quite likekly
I suppose we’ll see, won’t we? It’s not that the Chinese are incapable of great engineering, innovation, or safety. It’s that they prefer to fake it, instead.

[Toggerobs]

No surprise that Noel Philips over on youtube has managed to get a ride on the C919