Vickers Viscount - performance issues.

[Mooncrest]

I've heard it said that in the old Northeast and British Airways 806 days, the Viscounts flying from Leeds Bradford to Jersey and Guernsey would often delay their departure until the early evening as the short runway at LBA plus relatively high takeoff weights precluded midday and afternoon departures during the summer. I don't imagine performance was an issue when these fine aeroplanes were on Heathrow and Ireland duties - probably fewer stuffed suitcases and not quite as many passengers. But, how did the 806s and 802s manage during similar summer weather when departing from the Channel Islands? For comparison, the Jersey runway in the 60s and 70s wasn't much longer than LBA's (a problem for the BAC 1-11 too) and Guernsey's runway was less than 5000 ft long. Were British Midland and Dan Air Viscount 810s affected too ? They did have more powerful engines.

Thankyou.

[ATNotts]

BAF purchased many if not all the BA V.806 fleet and I recall they operated out of Coventry in the heat (Well occasionally!) of high summer to JER without any issues. I Don't recall the runway length at CVT in the mid 1980s but I don't imagine it would have been much longer than LBA.

British Midland were of course operating the V.810 at the same time.

[Mooncrest]

The Coventry runway was physically a little shorter than that of LBA but maybe had more useable length if there were no obstacles at either end. LBA is nearly 700 ft above sea level whereas Guernsey and Jersey are pretty much on the deck, as it were. That might have been significant; not exactly hot and high a la Nairobi but along those lines.

[oxenos]

Long time since I flew out of LBA, but I seem to recall that there was rising ground off the end of the north westerly runway. The performance limit may have been terrain clearance rather than runway length.

[kcockayne]

I can’t supply a definitive answer but, word was (in the 60s) that Viscounts were weight restricted on “hot” summer days on take off from Guernsey. This may also have been true for Jersey also; although probably less so due to the extra 400 ft of runway & lesser obstacles.

[Mooncrest]

Thankyou all. The climb out off RW32 at LBA does have The Chevin in its path but there is no such obstacle off RW14 (or 15 as it used to be). RW15 could be made available for departures for performance reasons, even with a tailwind. But if the aircraft was still too heavy, then...buggered!

[Herod]

Sort of relevant. In the F-27 days, using the -100 series, there was an engine-out escape manoeuvre off 33. Hang a left, between the cemetery and the tarn, thereby avoiding the Chevin. I don't think it applied to the -200 series, but it's a long time ago.
(AirUK F-27, based LBA '80-'88)

[oxenos]

In the F-27 days, using the -100 series, there was an engine-out escape manoeuvre off 33. Hang a left,
​​​​​​​Same for the 737-200

[Mooncrest]

I guess there are, or were, those occasions where you would just have to wait for the air to cool or a stiff headwind to spring up. Or wait a lot longer for a runway extension!

[Gordomac]

Mooncrest : You keep taking me back to flying the NE Viscounts outa LBA in 1972-4 !

I don't recall any performance issues'

Only issues were that Skippers tended to hog the pole. The 5=sector day, LBA-LHR-LBA in the morning followed by afternoon LBA-GCI-JER-LBA was greeted with hope as, surely, one might get offered one leg out of five- ?

Luvley sunny day, no wind, cavok everywhere and I was rostered with the CP and, of course, a full blown TRE/IRE. Off we went to LHR and I thought, at the start of each sector, this one is surely mine (?). Nah. Not a sniff. rotters.

As a result, in my P1 days to follow, I ensured "leg for leg" and on a three leg day, P2 would get two. One leg-? Didn't even flip a coing; P2 got it.

Formative days.

[Mooncrest]

Gordomac, I knew you would have something to contribute. Did you ever ask the captain if you could take a turn at actually flying the aeroplane or was that not the done thing for a newbie ?

[sandringham1]

I once had a conversation with an ex BEA Argosy and Merchantmen caption who told tales of flying the -100 series Argosies which didn't go too well, especially if leaving Turin, they had to circle while climbing before crossing the Alps, then the more powerful -222 version arrived which was a big improvement. Until BEA decided the Viscounts had a greater need for the more powerful engines so they did a swop and the Argosies went back to struggling again. Might have been just a pub story though.

[Groundloop]

I once had a conversation with an ex BEA Argosy and Merchantmen caption who told tales of flying the -100 series Argosies which didn't go too well, especially if leaving Turin, they had to circle while climbing before crossing the Alps, then the more powerful -222 version arrived which was a big improvement. Until BEA decided the Viscounts had a greater need for the more powerful engines so they did a swop and the Argosies went back to struggling again. Might have been just a pub story though.

Slightly off topic (quite a lot actually!) talking about a climbing turn before setting course I can remember Icelandair and Loftleidir DC-6Bs out of Glasgow often doing a climbing orbit to the south before heading North towards the Ben Lomond area.

[pax britanica]

Surely the Channel islamds were by virtue of theri location not as hot as inland lcations like Cov and LBA even if they are in the North (if youare from the Channel islands Cov is in the North) . Islands are usually windy most of time (except when they were foggy which i think was more of a problem with Ops into the Channel Islands.(judging from my fathers muterings about the places (BEA/BA Maintrol).

Re the Argosy's out of Turin how common were these circling departues back in the day? I flew Beijing to CDG on an ancienne AF 747-100 in the mid 1990s and that had to do an enormous circle returning back over the departure runway at several thousand feet to get over the mountains north of Beijing . Announced to the passengers by droll AF captain as nothing to be alarmed about but we need to be able to climb over ze wall . A memorable flight for that reason and because for business reasons I got to fly First as I had to be back in Uk next day and that was the only way. AF had caviar with ultra chilled proper vodka as a very generous 'amuse bouche' .

[Helen49]

I saw many years of Viscount operations at LBA but have no recollection of problems caused by high temperatures.......high cross winds a different matter! The majority of high temperatures, caused by high pressure, would usually lead to light winds and therefore the use of 15 for departures

[Mooncrest]

I must confess I'm repeating hearsay in this thread. I don't actually remember the Northeast and BA Viscounts flying from LBA to the Channel Islands - for me, the Dan Air HS748s were the machines on this run which I guess was after BA bailed out. But any excuse to talk about Viscounts!

[billyg]

Slightly off topic (quite a lot actually!) talking about a climbing turn before setting course I can remember Icelandair and Loftleidir DC-6Bs out of Glasgow often doing a climbing orbit to the south before heading North towards the Ben Lomond area.
That's spot on , I also remember sitting in my P4 classroom in Paisley and seeing the BM Argonauts circle the west end of the town until they had the height to head south !

[WHBM]

I once had a conversation with an ex BEA Argosy and Merchantmen caption who told tales of flying the -100 series Argosies which didn't go too well, especially if leaving Turin, they had to circle while climbing before crossing the Alps, then the more powerful -222 version arrived which was a big improvement.
Saw this just a few years ago. The Swiss preserved DC3 took off from Cannes airport, over us on the beach (sound of the R-1830s woke me up from my slumber, much to the amusement of Mrs WHBM :) ), southbound over the Med heading for Algeria, but was back high overhead on a reciprocal heading 15 minutes later having got the altitude to clear the coastal mountains on its way back to Switzerland.

[rolling20]

I once had a conversation with an ex BEA Argosy and Merchantmen caption who told tales of flying the -100 series Argosies which didn't go too well, especially if leaving Turin, they had to circle while climbing before crossing the Alps, then the more powerful -222 version arrived which was a big improvement. Until BEA decided the Viscounts had a greater need for the more powerful engines so they did a swop and the Argosies went back to struggling again. Might have been just a pub story though.
Early 2000's same thing in a 146. Cannot remember what series it was, but it took a while before we were flying back to Gatwick, rather than in climbing turns.

[bean]

I once had a conversation with an ex BEA Argosy and Merchantmen caption who told tales of flying the -100 series Argosies which didn't go too well, especially if leaving Turin, they had to circle while climbing before crossing the Alps, then the more powerful -222 version arrived which was a big improvement. Until BEA decided the Viscounts had a greater need for the more powerful engines so they did a swop and the Argosies went back to struggling again. Might have been just a pub story though.
Other way round. They took the 520 series Darts from the Viscount 806s for the Argosys

[bean]

Mooncrest.
The 1971 Northeast summer timetable shows many Viscount 806x flights to the Channel Islands departing on various days between 11:45 and 14:25

[Gordomac]

Mooncrest; Good grief, "Ask for a leg ?" ! I was glad enough to be RHS and paid as FO whereas the Hamsters going to BEA would never get near the RHS as P2 for a long time. Gosh, I called everyone Sir.

And TRN. Fbbo. My rosters were full of the usual but up came a one=off TRN. I thought it might be Edinburgh Turnhouse and had to look it up. Told girlfriend of the time that I would be late home as I was now a long-haul pilot flying international routes.

Did the circling out of TRN to get height before tackling the alps. No, didn't get either leg. Captain Terry F must have felt guilty as hell because. thereafter he gave me leg for leg whenever we met up.

[Mooncrest]

Gordo, I hope cockpit relations have changed for the better now. I took a jumpseat ride on a 757 a few years back and the FO flew both legs. I don't know if that was his choice or if the skipper just couldn't be arsed!

[nina wang]

Flew the 813,814 and 836 out of LBA for a few happy years and agree with a previous post. Never any performance issues. The only time I needed to give it some thought was on a 3 eng ferry to EMA. Second the comment about the wind and also remember that annoyingly low cloud base lifting over the threshold that allowed a good view of the runway during a missed approach!

[WHBM]

The Viscount 800 was sold to Continental Airlines in the USA, in the days when they had a substantial local service network astride the Denver-Dallas alignment, which included some points at 5,000 feet elevation. South African Airways and the Central African/Air Zimbabwe operation regularly ran through lesser points at this sort of altitude as well, at summer temperatures rarely attained in the UK. Didn't hear of any issues.

[dixi188]

IIRC the Viscount 800s had the RR Dart 515 and the 810s had the RR Dart 525. More power with Water Meth on the 525s.
I remember going out of Sana'a in Yemen in a SOAF Viscount that required 3 orbits to gain enough height to go north over the mountains, and the airport is over 7000ft up.

[Mooncrest]

The 810 - 836, 839 etc. Viscounts flown by British Midland, Dan Air, Air Bridge, Alidair and anyone else shouldn't have experienced performance problems from LBA, JER, GCI or anywhere else. Their engines were more powerful than those of the 802 and 806 fitted to the legacy British Airways aeroplanes.

[N707ZS]

Didn't they use the cross runway that went over Yeadon?

[DH106]

Didn't they use the cross runway that went over Yeadon?

I never saw a Viscount use R28, but certainly the smaller Dart twins - 748, F27 etc used R28 for landing in strong westerlies.

[Mooncrest]

The British Midland Viscounts certainly used RW28 for takeoff and landing in strong westerly winds. I don't remember British Airways or their predecessors doing so. Prior to 1965, when RW15/33 was commissioned, there was no choice!

[GAXLN]

I never saw a Viscount use R28, but certainly the smaller Dart twins - 748, F27 etc used R28 for landing in strong westerlies.

I recall landing R28 on a BMA Viscount flying in from LHR one morning. Would have been very early 80’s. Was noticeable by being different scenery below me on the approach.

[DH106]

The British Midland Viscounts certainly used RW28 for takeoff and landing in strong westerly winds. I don't remember British Airways or their predecessors doing so. Prior to 1965, when RW15/33 was commissioned, there was no choice!

Wow - a Viscount departure off R28 (~1000m) must have been something to behold !
Can't imagine the residents on the Harrogate Road being that thrilled though ! :rolleyes::eek:

[Herod]

As DH106 says, the F-27 used it regularly. Of course, only when the wind was a strong westerly. Just a "little" turbulent. It was also used by the 146 at times. Them was the days.

[Gordomac]

Nope, never looked at R28 but, hey, we in our 806X's were big, heavy, pretty, four-engined bombers ! Watched the fire service zapping along 28 on regular practice drills though.

Oh and Mooncrest, since you comment on the handling bit; a Jordie Capt came down from NCL for a five leg day and at the start of Leg 1-LHR, he said, ;" Oh, which way would you like to fly it?". Dumbfounded, startled and not prepared he saved me from an answer and continued-" actually, you do ALL the flying today....I enjoy a good laugh......."! Beastly.

[Mooncrest]

Should have flown him to Newcastle and dumped him there, Gordomac.

Anyone who wanted the thrill of a Viscount taking off just a few feet overhead need only to have been in a Fire tender on RW15 on a foggy Saturday morning in November 1978😉.

[DH106]

Should have flown him to Newcastle and dumped him there, Gordomac.

Anyone who wanted the thrill of a Viscount taking off just a few feet overhead need only to have been in a Fire tender on RW15 on a foggy Saturday morning in November 1978😉.

802 G-AOJE wasn't it? :)
I understand the captain's subsequent verbal exchange with ATC wasn't exactly to full & proper RT standards :}

[WHBM]

As DH106 says, the F-27 used it regularly. Of course, only when the wind was a strong westerly. Just a "little" turbulent. It was also used by the 146 at times. Them was the days.
When BMI started a London City to Leeds run some years ago, with a leased ATR42, I was one of its (few) passengers until it was quite quickly given up as a bad job. And it was indeed once landed on 27 at Leeds, I think on a stormy day.

Surprised about the 146. Though I likewise once got one on a departure off the old northern short runway at Dublin (26 ?), which came as a surprise as I'd never seen any airliner go off it before, let alone a jet. Although when I looked it up, it turned out it was actually longer TORA than London City at the time, which we were heading for !

[dixi188]

Dublin 29 I think. We landed on it in an Electra early one morning.

[Mooncrest]

802 G-AOJE wasn't it? :)
I understand the captain's subsequent verbal exchange with ATC wasn't exactly to full & proper RT standards :}
Nearly. G-AOJF. There is an AAIB report out there which makes alarming reading. As we were also talking about Jersey, another of our airports prone to fog/low cloud/sea fret (delete as appropriate), it's a wonder there haven't been more incidents like this. We need the sun to come out and get rid of the fog to gin-clear skies and raise the temperature to the point where takeoff isn't permitted or possible, whichever it is!

[nina wang]

The fun bit about JEY was that the fog would sometimes be moving sideways at 20kt +

[billyg]

Should have flown him to Newcastle and dumped him there, Gordomac.

Anyone who wanted the thrill of a Viscount taking off just a few feet overhead need only to have been in a Fire tender on RW15 on a foggy Saturday morning in November 1978😉.

Or landing at Renfrew in 1965 (Tom Baillie pic)

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x853/viscount_icelandair_tom_baillie_just_clearing_the_fence_at_r enfrew_1961_1280a_ae155517dabb7c264e26310c332b3fdee458fe2c.j pg

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Super Photograph !

[ATNotts]

Super Photograph !

Indeed, and taken without the benefit(?) of a fully automatic digital SLR camera. There was some real skill in photography back then. Heck, I'm showing my age!

[chevvron]

I recall landing R28 on a BMA Viscount flying in from LHR one morning. Would have been very early 80’s. Was noticeable by being different scenery below me on the approach.
Flew to Sumburgh from Glasgow on 6 Sep 1972 in G-AOHR (BE8012); had to stand all the way as there was no jump seat.
We landed on runway 27 there even though it was only about 900m in those days (before it was re-configured with ILS etc); bounced slighly thus lengthening an already short LDA; captain said 'ooh you cow' and slammed it firmly on the ground.
I remember as we did a 180 at the end of the runway, I was able to look straight down into the water at the seals gazing up at us.
A couple of weeks later, (I was there on detachment for 4 weeks) I returned from lunch to see a piece of paper on the controller's desk with '160/18' written on it. Asked the Manager what this was for; he replied that the Viscount captain had been up to watch the wind dials for a while and this was the wind speed/direction I was to pass to enable the departing aircraft to take off.
More than that I'm not saying.

[Flightrider]

I understand the captain's subsequent verbal exchange with ATC wasn't exactly to full & proper RT standards https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

The AAIB report rather drily notes that: "The commander of the aircraft then reported the incident to ATC in forcible terms"

The appendices to the report have the transcript!

[WHBM]

Or landing at Renfrew in 1965 (Tom Baillie pic)
Icelandair. They only had one Viscount, which ran from Reykjavik twice a week to Glasgow and Copenhagen, returning next day (so four Renfrew landings a week) and once a week day return to Heathrow. The latter took four hours each way, quite a run for a Viscount. They had lost a second Viscount somewhat earlier, and had to hang on to a DC-6B until their first 727 came.

Regarding Leeds and fog, a couple of years after the event above I did a Viscount day return from London. Outwards was OK, and I chanced upon a colleague on the same flight, but coming back to the airport in the evening the fog had come down and the inbound didn't make it in. Colleague there too, now with his client, and eventually told they were organising a coach to Heathrow. This seemed a bit tedious so the three of us cancelled our reservations, went out to the cab rank, and took one from there ... direct to Heathrow T1 car park. Poor driver, likely from Bradford if not Lahore, was rather lost, we had to give him cash for fuel on the way, and these were the times before the M25 round to Heathrow; fortunately we could give directions. Gave him a decent tip, but last saw him drawing (very) hesitantly away from the T1 set-down. Wonder how long it took him to get back.

[Airbanda]

Mooncrest.
The 1971 Northeast summer timetable shows many Viscount 806x flights to the Channel Islands departing on various days between 11:45 and 14:25

BKS/Northeast/BA flew a scheduled service from LBA to both Guernsey and Jersey from the opening of 15/33 until they pulled out altogether. Saturday and Sunday in the peak season saw the schedules augmented by additional services some of which were, I think, IT charters.

That tailed off by the late seventies, whether as a result of BA changes or the beginning of the end for the Channel Isles as a mainstream holiday destination I do not know. Both Dan Air with 748s and later leased Viscounts and Air UK picked up the slack later.

I lived in Guiseley, somewhat further out along 28's extended centre line than Yeadon, and was very much aware of Viscounts etc using 28 in strong westerlies along with the 748, F-27 and occasional piston engined machines such as BAF Carvairs etc . Noisiest I think was an Aer Turas DC-7. These and later their C-54 EI-ARS were usually carrying racehorses for Doncaster, Wetherby etc.

Wasn't there to see it myself but there was one occasion when a Britannia 737 positioning in from Luton landed on 10 in a strong easterly.

[rog747]

BKS certainly flew IT package Holiday Charters from LBA for Airways Holidays on the Viscount right back to 1966 on the first 700 series.
Charter flights were also operated from LBA by BKS on behalf of Wallace Arnold to Rotterdam (for the bulbs) Ostend and Basle, being the gateways to pick up the European Scenic Coach tours flying on their Prop Jet Avro 748, and the Viscounts would be used later.

The first two 112 seat Britannia 102's arrived in 1964 and would fly IT charters for Airways and Skytours Holidays.
Both aircraft had actually been bought from BOAC by Airways Holidays to protect their #1 stake in the North East from Skytours and their new Britannia Airways, however they didn't have a license to operate the whispering giants and so BKS took them on their own AOC to fly Airways' IT Charters at the weekends to Tarbes, Barcelona, Lisbon, Valencia, Ibiza, Palma, Rome, Dubrovnik, Rimini, Trieste (for Venice) and Mons from NCL and MME, but not from LBA.

1965 saw the completion of a new 5400 feet runway at Leeds/Bradford allowing larger aircraft to be considered by BKS for future operations, and on April 22 1966 a United Airlines Viscount 745 arrived at BKS Southend for overhaul and respray before entering service with B.K.S.
Registered G-ATTA, this 63 seat Viscount was test flown on June 7, and two days later it entered service with B.K.S. Air Transport on services from Leeds.
3 more Viscount 700's arrived to join BKS in 1967.
1968 saw the introduction of the 71 seat Viscount 806 at Leeds/Bradford.
1968 also marked the end of the operation of the HS 748 aircraft.

Holiday airports flown from LBA on the BKS Viscounts would have been Jersey (of course) Rotterdam Ostend Basle Lourdes/Tarbes, with longer routes to Rimini Palma Perpignan Barcelona and possibly Malaga and Valencia.
The new airport at Alicante had opened in 1968 and was taking some charter flights, but until the inauguration of the new charter terminal (1972) many tourists who had been arriving from London and the UK landed in Valencia and from there they arrived in Benidorm by coaches; a 3 to 4 hours long drive on the old narrow and windy coast road.
These flights would have been full (63 pax on the 700 series, and 71 on the larger 806 series) and adult passengers would have had one hold luggage; the allowance was only 15 kgs back then.
I have no idea if all of those longer routes could be made without a fuel stop.

1969 saw the Britannia's replaced by the two new 117 seat Trident jets purchased from Hawker Siddeley.
The second Trident's first flight was a charter flight for Airways Holidays from Newcastle to Palma.
The Tridents would not fly holiday charters from LBA, but flew these from NCL and MME and also from LHR for Swans Tours, but now fitted with 123 seats.

Some notes from Jim Shield who had joined BKS in 1959 and had been Station Manager at Newcastle for BKS in the mid Sixties, continued as Station Manager for British Airways until he retired in 1999.

[WHBM]

I believe that by the mid-1960s BKS divided their types by North-east airport, certainly on the London runs, with Viscounts from Leeds, 748s from Teesside, and Britannias from Newcastle. The whole Teesside operation was rather abruptly given up around 1967 (there was a paper insert into their timetable saying so), and the 748s were then sold. The 748 was a good aircraft for coach-air holiday Its, as the 44/48 seats nicely matched a typical coach of the era, whereas 70-odd seats in a Viscount didn't.

Jersey/Guernsey were particularly weekday popular destinations for flight planners because their duration slotted in nicely to do a morning business return to Heathrow, then a mid-morning departure to the Channel Islands, and back in time for the later afternoon business demand again to Heathrow. If you didn't do them every day there would be Belfast or Dublin at similar times.

[ATNotts]

rog747,

Apologies for the thread drift but I always understood the BKS Trident 1Es were originally part of a 5 unit order from Channel Airways, who eventually took just two, one of which, G-AVYE eventually wound up operating from BHX to GLA and CDG as well as some weekend IT work and was the only 1E flown by BEA.

[chevvron]

rog747,

Apologies for the thread drift but I always understood the BKS Trident 1Es were originally part of a 5 unit order from Channel Airways, who eventually took just two, one of which, G-AVYE eventually wound up operating from BHX to GLA and CDG as well as some weekend IT work and was the only 1E flown by BEA.
Returned from Gibraltar to Heathrow on 19 Feb 76 in GAWFA which had 50% backwards facing seats; I believe this indicated it was a 1E but I'm not sure as I didn't record the exact type.

[DaveReidUK]

Returned from Gibraltar to Heathrow on 19 Feb 76 in GAWFA which had 50% backwards facing seats; I believe this indicated it was a 1E but I'm not sure as I didn't record the exact type.

Probably 2E G-AVFA. Can't have been G-AWFA, which was a Cherokee Arrow.

[WHBM]

rog747,

Apologies for the thread drift but I always understood the BKS Trident 1Es were originally part of a 5 unit order from Channel Airways, who eventually took just two, one of which, G-AVYE eventually wound up operating from BHX to GLA and CDG as well as some weekend IT work and was the only 1E flown by BEA.
This is so. Sqn Ldr Jack Jones at Channel got into a financial pickle with Hawker Siddeley over his Trident order, they just took two, which is all he could get finance for. One more went to Air Ceylon, and the other two to BKS. After these were rebadged as Northeast they were joined by their two compatriot Channel aircraft after the latter shut down (AVYE did operate at first for BEA). Northeast had one written off at Bilbao in 1975, the remaining three were merged into BA shortly after when the Northeast brand was shut down. Like quite a number of Tridents of other types they only got 10 or 12 years use overall out of them - many of the initial BEA Viscount fleet lasted for double or treble this.

[megan]

Returned from Gibraltar to Heathrow on 19 Feb 76 in GAWFABritish Airways had twenty Tridents with registrations in the G-AWZ* range, could it be G-AWZA MSN 2302 HS.121 TRIDENT SERIES 3B-101? Only two of them built

[bean]

I believe that by the mid-1960s BKS divided their types by North-east airport, certainly on the London runs, with Viscounts from Leeds, 748s from Teesside, and Britannias from Newcastle. The whole Teesside operation was rather abruptly given up around 1967 (there was a paper insert into their timetable saying so), and the 748s were then sold. The 748 was a good aircraft for coach-air holiday Its, as the 44/48 seats nicely matched a typical coach of the era, whereas 70-odd seats in a Viscount didn't.

Jersey/Guernsey were particularly weekday popular destinations for flight planners because their duration slotted in nicely to do a morning business return to Heathrow, then a mid-morning departure to the Channel Islands, and back in time for the later afternoon business demand again to Heathrow. If you didn't do them every day there would be Belfast or Dublin at similar times.
The 748s were based at Leeds. LHR-MME was Britannias

[DaveReidUK]

British Airways had twenty Tridents with registrations in the G-AWZ* range, could it be G-AWZA MSN 2302 HS.121 TRIDENT SERIES 3B-101? Only two of them built

They did indeed - but the OP's reference to a significant proportion of rear-facing seats would appear to rule out a T3.

[rog747]

rog747,

Apologies for the thread drift but I always understood the BKS Trident 1Es were originally part of a 5 unit order from Channel Airways, who eventually took just two, one of which, G-AVYE eventually wound up operating from BHX to GLA and CDG as well as some weekend IT work and was the only 1E flown by BEA.

Yes, correct, as you and WHBM comment, Channel ordered 5 Trident One-E's to be designated 1E-140's, G-AVYA/YB/YC/YD/YE.

These were to have the 139 seats we all know about, so would gain the extra midships exit hatch (Door 2R) over the 1E-110's which did not have the extra exit.

I have just read only recently that G-AVYA was already built, ordered for Kuwait Airways but was NTU.
Hence this odd one out was actually a 1E -110 and so did not ever get the extra door modification.
Subsequently when Channel only wanted 2 Tridents delivered in 1968 (YB/YC) this odd one (YA) eventually went to Air Ceylon, and the other 2 (YC/YD) went to BKS a year later in 1969.

Channel now struggling for its life, sold G-AVYB to BEA in late 1971, and this Trident went to join the former BKS pair now flying as Northeast in yellow livery.

G-AVYE was sold to BEA in Feb 1972 and painted in BEA livery, but eventually joined Northeast Airlines with small Northeast titles added in Nov 1973, and British Airways titles replaced BEA.
YE was operated by Northeast until 1 Apr 1976.

YD, now painted in the new BA Negus livery, was written off at Bilbao (RTO) 09/1975

Both G-AVYC and YD had already been built and painted ready for Channel Airways in 1968.

Here is a photo of YC almost completed, and one of YD modified to 1E-140 standard with the additional midships emergency exit door.
The Channel Airways contract was cancelled, so the pair were completed for BKS Air Transport in 1969.
Photos taken 24/09/1968 acknowledged to Ken Haynes.


TRIDENT 1E-140, G-AVYC Hatfield (https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1825733)

TRIDENT 1E-140, G-AVYD Hatfield (https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1825734)

The 1E-140 originally ordered by Channel used the same seats as their 1-11s, made by Flight Equipment, at 31-inch pitch. So still roomier in that regard than many airlines today.
They had four exits on each side, instead of the standard 1E's four to port and three to starboard.
The midships galley was omitted.
The seat design was a forerunner of the modern type in that it only had lateral frames, and lacked the reinforcing horizontal lower-rear bar.
So people could put their feet under the seat in front instead of just their bags.
Britannia later adopted the same seats for their 737s and were able to squeeze in an additional two rows as a result from 117 seats to 130.

[rog747]

Returned from Gibraltar to Heathrow on 19 Feb 76 in GAWFA which had 50% backwards facing seats; I believe this indicated it was a 1E but I'm not sure as I didn't record the exact type.

Probably Trident G-AVFA a Trident Two E.
The Trident 3B's were allocated from G-AWZA and so on...

All BEA and BA Tridents has some sections of rearward facing seats, including the One-E's with Northeast.
So all three types at BEA had at least some rear facing seats. The One and Two had more than the Three.

[WHBM]

Dragging us back (yet again) to Viscounts, that Channel Airways livery on the Trident originated with a fleet of 11, no less, Viscount 800s that Channel bought from Continental Airlines in the USA. Their gold and black livery was retained almost unaltered by Channel, including keeping Continental's encircled eagle emblem, which they took for their own, and even the one notable change, the Channel Airways fuselage title, was done in Continental's distinctive font. They formed Channel's mainstream fleet at Southend for the rest of the airline's existence.

[rog747]

Indeed, back OT to Viscounts lol - Channel Airways leased some of their -V700's to BKS in 1967.

BKS went on to have 6 x V806's from BEA from 1968.

And of course BKS Engineering was for many years done at their own Hangar at Southend.

Interesting you noted that the Avro 748 seats of 44-48 was a 'Coach load' - never thought of that.
Although when the bigger Viscounts took over some folk would have booked 'stay put' holidays,
and some may have chosen the Rail option to continue on from Ostend or Basel to say the Tyrol, or Venice by Continental Rail.

[WHBM]

And of course BKS Engineering was for many years done at their own Hangar at Southend.
Indeed, often not known that BKS was originally a Southend-based operator, their concentration on the Northeast came later, the engineering staying at Southend long after the ops focus moved. And the "K" in the name was for 'Mike' Keegan, longstanding and well-known Southend stalwart running multiple airlines from there over the generations.

Interesting you noted that the Avro 748 seats of 44-48 was a 'Coach load' - never thought of that.

44 seats was a common continental road coach configuration of the 1950s-60s. 11 rows of 4-across.

I always thought that Skyways had much input into the 748 design. They had established their coach-air operation from Lympne to Beauvais, with coaches to London and Paris. They initially used DC-3s, 21-24 seats, so two DC-3s were run for one coach. They were the first operator of the 748, and likely the first to order it. A "coach-sized aircraft".

Back to Channel Airways, they also adapted a DC-4, squashing in a record (I think) 88 seats, running on their Southend to Ostend shuttle many times a day. Ostend was the centre of coach operators for British coach holidays in Europe. Why 88 seats ? Two coach loads.

[ATNotts]

Dragging us back (yet again) to Viscounts, that Channel Airways livery on the Trident originated with a fleet of 11, no less, Viscount 800s that Channel bought from Continental Airlines in the USA. Their gold and black livery was retained almost unaltered by Channel, including keeping Continental's encircled eagle emblem, which they took for their own, and even the one notable change, the Channel Airways fuselage title, was done in Continental's distinctive font. They formed Channel's mainstream fleet at Southend for the rest of the airline's existence.
Of course coming bang up to date Jet2 have done similar with their "Jet2 Holidays" livery nicked from Allegiant of the USA.

Are there other examples of airlines effectively taking on another ones livery for their own? I think I'll start a new thread later.

[DaveReidUK]

Probably Trident G-AVFA a Trident Two E.
The Trident 3B's were allocated from G-AWZA and so on...

All BEA and BA Tridents has some sections of rearward facing seats, including the One-E's with Northeast.
So all three types at BEA had at least some rear facing seats. The One and Two had more than the Three.

Strange echo in here. :O

[condor17]

Apols no Viscounts ..
Chev , thanks for the '' approved winds '' in Shetland . We needed them sometimes , even in ATP times !
Sorry for 19th Feb '76 , not on GIB , I was being 'retreaded after redeployment .. A double to DUB and AMS on T2 G-AVFF and T1 G-ARPD .
Apols to DR for harmonic echo , they all had front 1/2 of rear cabin [ down to emrg. exit ] with rear facing seats .
Gordo with his lack of landings ... Mainline Trids operated with 3 pilots , thus if Skipper gave every other ldg away , you as F/O only got 1 in 4 as both F/Os alternated sectors on P2 [ RH seat ] and P3 [ panel , Flt Eng seat ].
Capt Fred Terry , excellent Captain , pilot , aviator .
My 1st trip on the line after training , P3 to Athens , P2 back ... Capt. Fred gave me the t/o and ldg ! And another next day on a 4 sector Zagreb , Belgrade .
Mind you , quickly sussed out that from hot and heavy destinations , skipper often gave flying away ... They had Their Big , Hairy , Old , Mitts on the throttles and could decide how much , how long , an over temp and/or over RPM of the engines would be tolerated . Not some junior sprog straight out of training .
Fred's method of communicating with 'eyetalian ATC was just to shout louder , but equally he had delicate hands flying his beloved Tiger , UK's second oldest .. G-ACDJ .

Rgds condor .

[rog747]

Strange echo in here. :O

Sorry old chap, missed yours further up - was a bit of a boring bank holiday day lol

[Meikleour]

What was the origin of the single Trident 1E that BEA based in Glasgow in the early '70s?

[ATNotts]

What was the origin of the single Trident 1E that BEA based in Glasgow in the early '70s?

That was G-AVYE, formerly of Channel Airways, and used on GLA-BHX-CDG principally.

[Meikleour]

Thanks ATNotts: I had several mates "posted" to that oddball flight.