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k.swiss
22nd Apr 2023, 12:33
Hello! For some reason I confused myself..

In the below scenario (ENG1 FAILURE) I have two questions.

First of all, once the actions from the initial line ENG1 FAIL are completed do we say "CLEAR ENGINE 1" (After relight consider..) or do we continue to the end of the items and announce "CLEAR ENGINE 1" after the TCAS has been changed to TA?

What is the rule here? Line to box or just clear the page as the actions come. I am aware that if I was to press CLR at this moment (in the screenshot) the new line would appear "ENG 1 SHUTDOWN"

Any explanation or rule of thumb would be appreciated!
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/ecam_40e4d0ab16e91b34b849928d00c7815f641acf78.png

CrazyStuntPilot
22nd Apr 2023, 13:03
As per Fctm-AOP, you perform one procedure at a time and repeat the call outs for each procedure. So, "clear eng 1" at the end if ENG 1 FAIL, then "eng 1" again at the end of ENG 1 SHUT DOWN.

k.swiss
22nd Apr 2023, 13:12
As per Fctm-AOP, you perform one procedure at a time and repeat the call outs for each procedure. So, "clear eng 1" at the end if ENG 1 FAIL, then "eng 1" again at the end of ENG 1 SHUT DOWN.

Cheers! So essentially the SQUARE BOX indicates a new procedure?

CrazyStuntPilot
22nd Apr 2023, 13:40
Each title is one procedure. So, ENG 1 FAIL is a procedure, ENG 1 SHUT DOWN is another, etc. The box around a procedure title indicates that there are secondary failures associated with it, but some procedure titles are not boxed.

AerocatS2A
22nd Apr 2023, 14:56
Each title is one procedure. So, ENG 1 FAIL is a procedure, ENG 1 SHUT DOWN is another, etc. The box around a procedure title indicates that there are secondary failures associated with it, but some procedure titles are not boxed.
I donít think this is correct. The CLR key clears from underline to underline, so it moves through the independent failures. In the OPís example the first press of CLR key will move to the second page because there is a green overflow arrow. If you press the CLR key when you get to the boxed ENG SHUTDOWN it will clear that whole page, which is not what you want.

CrazyStuntPilot
22nd Apr 2023, 15:06
I donít think this is correct. The CLR key clears from underline to underline, so it moves through the independent failures. In the OPís example the first press of CLR key will move to the second page because there is a green overflow arrow. If you press the CLR key when you get to the boxed ENG SHUTDOWN it will clear that whole page, which is not what you want.
That is not correct. Try it in the sim next time.

AerocatS2A
22nd Apr 2023, 15:21
That is not correct. Try it in the sim next time.
Weíll, Iíve done it a few times in the sim in the past and my company training documents support my memory. The CLR key clears from underline to underline. Unless ENG 1 remains and SHUTDOWN moves up adjacent to it. Now youíve got me questioning myself. Iím not in the sim for ages.

AerocatS2A
22nd Apr 2023, 15:40
This YouTube video supports my recollection. When the CLR button is pushed, the entire ENG 1 procedure is removed, including the boxed SHUTDOWN portion. (Skip forward to about 7 min).

It would be different if the SHUTDOWN box had its own ENG 1 title, but it doesn’t.

https://youtu.be/KyWBCiQYRVM

Server too busy
22nd Apr 2023, 15:57
If you press CLR it will clear FAIL and move SHUTDOWN up, except if TCAS is only in TA.
As "TCAS mode selector.....TA" is an actionable item, ECAM won't automatically clear.
Doing resets and practice engine failures in the sim it is easy to forget to reset TCAS to TA/RA which is probably why some have seen the ECAM clear to the next underline item.
Whether you clear the FAIL part or not would be company SOP.

AerocatS2A
22nd Apr 2023, 16:15
That is the opposite of what happens in the video. They action the TCAS, clear ENG 1, and the whole procedure clears. This is the way our company run the engine fail ECAM. Maybe if we haven’t actioned the TCAS it will just clear to SHUTDOWN.

CrazyStuntPilot
22nd Apr 2023, 17:13
This YouTube video supports my recollection. When the CLR button is pushed, the ENG 1 procedure is removed, including the boxed SHUTDOWN portion. (Skip forward to about 7 min).

It would be different if the SHUTDOWN box had its own ENG 1 title, but it doesnít.

https://youtu.be/KyWBCiQYRVM
You don't see the ECAM in that video when they push the CLR pb; you see a handmade illustration. In any case, it's one procedure at a time, as stated in the AIB FCTM and the tasksharing table, company SOP notwithstanding.

AerocatS2A
22nd Apr 2023, 22:05
You don't see the ECAM in that video when they push the CLR pb; you see a handmade illustration. In any case, it's one procedure at a time, as stated in the AIB FCTM and the tasksharing table, company SOP notwithstanding.
Company SOP isnít going to change how the ECAM physically works though, anyway, I mustnít be remembering correctly.

AerocatS2A
22nd Apr 2023, 23:20
I think I’ve figured out where the ambiguity is. If there is overflow to the next page it will clear to SHUTDOWN, if there is no overflow, which is the case for a failure with damage after the TCAS is actioned, it will clear the entire ECAM (or to the next underlined title). It would also be the case that if the TCAS had been left in TA from a previous exercise then there would be no overflow and the entire ECAM will clear as Server too busy says. So if you’re SOP is to get to the SHUTDOWN box and then CLR ENG 1 FAIL it will bring SHUTDOWN to the top in order to reveal the second page. If your SOP is to just keep going to the bottom of the page then selecting the TCAS to TA clears that line which removes the second page and clearing ENG 1 will clear everything.

The key here is that if there is no overflow, clearing will clear from underline to underline which means you need to ensure all actions for the underlined system have been completed, not just the ones up to the next related failure. This is still doing one procedure at a time, you don’t skip a FAIL item to do a SHUTDOWN item to then go back to a FAIL item.

sonicbum
23rd Apr 2023, 09:01
Hello! For some reason I confused myself..

In the below scenario (ENG1 FAILURE) I have two questions.

First of all, once the actions from the initial line ENG1 FAIL are completed do we say "CLEAR ENGINE 1" (After relight consider..) or do we continue to the end of the items and announce "CLEAR ENGINE 1" after the TCAS has been changed to TA?

What is the rule here? Line to box or just clear the page as the actions come. I am aware that if I was to press CLR at this moment (in the screenshot) the new line would appear "ENG 1 SHUTDOWN"

Any explanation or rule of thumb would be appreciated!
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/ecam_40e4d0ab16e91b34b849928d00c7815f641acf78.png

Airbus ECAM discipline is to "clear name of SYSTEM"

Hence Clear ENG1 after TCAS TA.

Ref. Airbus TUTORIALS.

sonicbum
23rd Apr 2023, 09:08
As per Fctm-AOP, you perform one procedure at a time and repeat the call outs for each procedure. So, "clear eng 1" at the end if ENG 1 FAIL, then "eng 1" again at the end of ENG 1 SHUT DOWN.

This would be applicable if the depiction of the failure was ENG1 FAIL followed by ENG1 SHUTDOWN, which is not an ECAM representation.
The Shutdown is a direct consequence of the engine Failure in this context, it is not a Shutdown driven by other reasons.

CrazyStuntPilot
24th Apr 2023, 00:34
Airbus ECAM discipline is to "clear name of SYSTEM"

Hence Clear ENG1 after TCAS TA.

Ref. Airbus TUTORIALS.
You contradict yourself. "clear name of SYSTEM" = "clear ENG 1". There is no exception in the case of fail+shutdown just like there is no exception to this rile in case of rev unlocked+shutdown or any other examples of multiple related system failures, e.g., multiple FCTL or AIR alerts.Try it for yourself in the sim. "One procedure at a time," as stated in the tasksharing table and earlier in the FCTM.

AerocatS2A
24th Apr 2023, 04:42
You contradict yourself. "clear name of SYSTEM" = "clear ENG 1". There is no exception in the case of fail+shutdown just like there is no exception to this rile in case of rev unlocked+shutdown or any other examples of multiple related system failures, e.g., multiple FCTL or AIR alerts.Try it for yourself in the sim. "One procedure at a time," as stated in the tasksharing table and earlier in the FCTM.
Doing one procedure at a time does not mean saying “clear [name of procedure]” after each is complete. sonicbum doesnt contradict themselves, you do the ENG 1 Fail procedure followed by the shutdown procedure then you clear ENG 1 which clears both from the ECAM. The only reason you can clear the ENG 1 Fail procedure and still have the shutdown procedure on the screen is because there’s an overflow to the second page. If there’s no overflow the CLR button clears everything under the ENG 1 title which is not what you want if you haven’t done everything. The CLR button clears from underline to underline unless there’s overflow in which case it clears to show the next page.

If this wasn’t the case then you would have to push CLR twice to clear both ENG 1 procedures, but you don’t, you only have to press it once provided there’s no overflow.

vilas
24th Apr 2023, 05:35
You do actions underline to underline then clear. If any boxed item then read and go through but don't clear.

Superpilot
24th Apr 2023, 19:37
Seconded AerocatS2A. Just replicated inside a good PC flight sim.