Taxi Speeds

[LootedfromCPA]

Will operating crew soon be summoned for third floor interviews by someone who does not understand what happens on the line? Taxiing below 15 knots has become an issue with management apparantly. With lots of ground incidents happening across the globe, does management want a cathay aircraft to appear on the headlines for a ground collision? Ultimately, it is the Commanders responsibility to ensure the safety of an aircraft. The most recent email sent out by Mr.Burns mentioned that 'we pride ourselves on our pilots with high levels of proficiency and operational standards' but yet our pilots are being paid dirt cheap rates and constantly put up with sh*t and now are being threatened with management interrogations for taxiing slower than what they think is possible. This is just adding onto a pile of psychological problems for operating crew on top of the existing issues which were never rectified.

Unfortunately this is what crew have to face everyday so to the new joiners and interviewees I suggest you look elsewhere for employment. And to the frequent travelers who fly with cathay, if you aren't already doing so I beg that you fly with another carrier for your own sake.

[RAT Management]

If salaries for pilots is 2% of the operating cost. Has any of the geniuses figured out the cost of engine time, brakes usage and fuel for these slow taxi speeds. Seems to me they could fix the problem easily and things would go back to normal. But I guess getting a bigger stick to management is better than being fair and reasonable to the pilots.

[pill]

Easy to fix with an amendment to the handbook. Pay the higher of blocks or scheduled. It seems so simple.

[From a distance]

So Cathay pilots are being incentivised to operate the aircraft inefficiently and no other airlines operating to HKG have this problem. Sounds like a systemic failure.

Fix the systemic issue and the problem gets resolved. Any worthy manager would realise this, but instead there is the usual threat and intimidation tactics.

Workplace intimidation only creates a toxic culture and forums such as this are good to expose such a culture.
And besides with people being so interconnected nowadays through various chat groups, it tends to make people more resolute, so management’s hostile posturing is in this case like pissing in to a typhoon wind.

[Sam Ting Wong]

It's only the beginning. With AI soon every nano-second of every flight will be monitored and analyzed. I think this will affect every commercial flight everywhere.

[magenta magnet]

well if it's CAT 2 outside sure 10kts whatever nice and slow
normal running around would be around 20kts, with backtrack at 30kts

if you're backtracking or running around at 10kts then you're 100 years old and I'd be banging my head on the dash :ugh:lol

[buggaluggs]

Well Magnet, clearly you don’t get paid by the minute, as we’ve been forced to accept!

[dingodyle]

well if it's CAT 2 outside sure 10kts whatever nice and slow
normal running around would be around 20kts, with backtrack at 30kts

if you're backtracking or running around at 10kts then you're 100 years old and I'd be banging my head on the dash :ugh:lol

lol you must be on a diffrent cos to me :p

[magenta magnet]

If you want to hate management etc by all means, but remember all companies managers are the same small brained nutters brownnosing each other in the office to climb their own ladder.

But if you are deliberately practicing poor airmanship then that's a whole different level of childishness, and you become just as bad as them and every other "terrible" pilot, try rise above it and set a good example to your co-pilot / captain. Who cares what these moronic managers are doing or saying, when you come to work just try at least have a good time and not plant it into the side of a mountain or even the runway because you're angry 24/7, leave the politics on the ground for the pub.

[dingodyle]

I get that and I think its a fair position, we all would rather go to work and not let it affect us but the reality is that it does. Have to fly safe of course, but if your in an empty airport (as HK often is) are you really gonna gun it down on the backtrack at 30kts when the new contract financially incentives you and rewards you for every minute you take? Be a good example? As bad as them? Im here to make money not show the company what a great pilot I am on my new cos. They designed this system of which only they can change, we are just playing within it.

[Dilbert68]

Pay sched or better, there will be no more issues. You can go ahead and monitor my taxi speeds all you want, I really do not care. Slow taxi speeds add up to a significant pay difference over the course of a year on this absolutely garbage contract. Do the right thing for once... yeah right. Rather keep the pilots miserable.

[Starbear]

Pay sched or better, there will be no more issues. You can go ahead and monitor my taxi speeds all you want, I really do not care. Slow taxi speeds add up to a significant pay difference over the course of a year on this absolutely garbage contract. Do the right thing for once... yeah right. Rather keep the pilots miserable.

Many years I worked for a UK airline where our "Duty Pay"which was an hourly rate was paid from report time to blocks on ( I think). One day someone on the 3rd floor (yes we had one of those too) noticed that some flights actually blocked on before schedule and saw a golden opportunity to save the company a few bob and earn themselves a ~well deserved~ pat on the back as in Look how clever we are. It lasted about a week as feedback was forwarded to the DFO who immediately issued a notice stating that under no circumstances were crews to be penalised for arriving early. Sorted! That was the mark of a true manager (and yes if you arrived late that was paid to actual arrivlal time). Happy days

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Slow taxi speeds add up to a significant pay difference over the course of a year on this absolutely garbage contract.
And it's also extremely selfish, you're not the only ones using the airport. Have you ever noticed the long trail of aircraft behind you as you taxi at 5 knots along F/T/A after vacating 07L? But you obviously don't care about others, it's all about you, right?

[Zi Peng]

If you want to hate management etc by all means, but remember all companies managers are the same small brained nutters brownnosing each other in the office to climb their own ladder.

But if you are deliberately practicing poor airmanship then that's a whole different level of childishness, and you become just as bad as them and every other "terrible" pilot, try rise above it and set a good example to your co-pilot / captain. Who cares what these moronic managers are doing or saying, when you come to work just try at least have a good time and not plant it into the side of a mountain or even the runway because you're angry 24/7, leave the politics on the ground for the pub.

Why is it happening ? Why not focusing on the why, the reason and work on that to find a solution.
Someone gave it here, pay the highest of scheduled and actual.
Do you think raising the minimum hours thresholds helped ?

As for you Sue Ridgepipe, when you lost 50+% of your income you do what you have to do; hopefully you will never be in that position. Again let’s have a look at the cause to find the solution, taving slow is just an expression of a different deeply rooted problem. Punishing someone doesn’t eliminate the problem it will just create more resentment

[magenta magnet]

small minded..

So Zi Peng from Angola and the rest who don't think this is pathetic, do you shut down 2 engines on the 74 during flight or maybe just throttle the 777 back to just above stall speed on your now 95hr flight from HK - LHR so you can earn an extra $200 at the end of the year? I mean where do you draw the line at being a bad airman? And do you do these sort of petty things in your every day life outside of aviation?

Airfares around the world have doubled since covid, but you're quite happy to quickly jump ship and head off to eg. Emirates who are screwing over their customers, but hey we don't care about them because I'm ok, how does that saying go, "ef you, Jack, I'm alright."

Aviation is now run by such petty people.

Just set a good example, there are others in the cockpit / office / home who might just look up to you.

[Kitsune]

small minded..

So Zi Peng from Angola and the rest who don't think this is pathetic, do you shut down 2 engines on the 74 during flight or maybe just throttle the 777 back to just above stall speed on your now 95hr flight from HK - LHR so you can earn an extra $200 at the end of the year? I mean where do you draw the line at being a bad airman? And do you do these sort of petty things in your every day life outside of aviation?

Airfares around the world have doubled since covid, but you're quite happy to quickly jump ship and head off to eg. Emirates who are screwing over their customers, but hey we don't care about them because I'm ok, how does that saying go, "ef you, Jack, I'm alright."

Aviation is now run by such petty people.

Just set a good example, there are others in the cockpit / office / home who might just look up to you.

You are VeryOldChinaHandjob and I claim my £5.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You can all take a deep breath. It's over anyway, one letter is all it takes in this business. Taxi speed will be back to normal. Remember the extra fuel debate and how it was solved with a monthly chart?

Soon you will get automatically marked for any exceedence or irregularity anyway. Every step climb, every speed etc. Welcome to the new world of transparent real-time data and AI processing power.

[VforVENDETTA]

It's well known and mentioned by many authors of books on the subject of airmansbip, this mythical word, that you won't find two pilots who agree on the exact definition of it.

How well one wears the uniform, the fit, cleanliness, proper buttoning, the tie, hat etc. Following the rules, regulations and SOPs. Not following rules, regulations and SOPs when doing so would delay or cancel the flight or otherwise is inconvenient to self, passengers or the company. Being a master in operating the aircraft throughout its operating envelope and phases. Being good at nothing but operating the aircraft in the most fuel/money efficient way. The list goes on.

Some apparently think it means being a chump. If I've learned anything in 30+ years in the airline business, is that unfortunately you'll never get anything you want from any airline unless you hurt them in the pocket book. You have to make it so they come to you with their grievances not the other way around. If you follow negotiations at companies that pay their pilots the highest, work to rule and general slowdowns start before the negotiations have even started. The lesson is learned a long time ago.

The same day contract cancelation and 50% pay & benefits cuts were announced, slow taxiing, not requesting or accepting directs, not starting engines until pushback was complete etc started. Starting that day I never taxied faster than 5-10 knots, never asked for or accepted a direct from ATC, never started engines until pushback complete, planned my autobrake setting to result in longer taxi and more. My financial well being was directly affected by it all.

The reason why airlines implemented block time pay guarantee back in the 60s was not because they liked their pilots so much. It was because a large majority were doing all possible to add every minute to every flight and make sure at le least they don't end up with less pay than their monthly awarded schedule and once they got started down that path it also became a way to make maximum pay as much as possible. It became normalized. Routine requests to hold in the penalty box "due to technical etc issue", requesting random holds "to burn excess fuel due max landing weight" and more were common. The companies tried to intimidate pilots into compliance but to no avail. Afterall if most of your pilots are doing it you can't fire them all. Firing a few at a time was also tried to no avail. It didn't stop them. It costs cathay 20 times more in operational cost of the aircraft in fuel and engine maintenance alone than what a pilot gets paid for every minute, under cos18 FO 1 scale. 10 times in CA pay. But do you think they're smart enough to be able to do the math? Did it take them 2.5 years to finally notice?

The cathay geniuses who decided on cathay being the only airline to not pay block hour guarantee have obviously not read the history of this practice and why it was adopted in the first place. Incompetent management at its worst.

What cathay management is complaining about, taxi speeds and many many other ways pilots are adding time to flights, is obviously very common for them to feel the pain. Whatever they thought has obviously been wrong on this issue. 2.5 years of adding time to flights. How much has that cost them?

But don't hold your breath. Cathay is a colonial outfit. Such outfits chronically suffer from Incompetent management. They never admit to their fkkk'ups. They keep doing what has been proven painfully to be damaging financially and otherwise every day but never correct it because doing so is admission to the Incompetent mistake in the first place. They will ride the sinking ship to the bottom and never admit to being wrong.

Read the book called "Chaos of empire". Its a true history of the disasterous colonialism in British India. You will he struck with extreme similarities of that failed endeavor and how cathay management operates. The language, the attitudes, the behaviors, the beliefs of these people are extremely alike. And what they couldn't achieve via competence and skill, they always attempted to achieve via shear force & violence instead.

Who are the swires afterall anyway? One of the original few pirate families who got mother England to forcefully take hong kong for them so they could keep selling opium in China. Who they are has not changed. They have little or no influence left but still have the same stripes.

They won't change anything back and will ride this sinking ship until it sinks rather than fix what they've broken.

Get off this sinking ship as soon as you can. But while you're still on it, ask yourself a very important question when they're wanting you to operate as money efficient to the company as you can while you're struggling financially and barely surviving at best or are bankrupt already while they seek new ways to squeeze more blood out of you every day with new policies.

Ask yourself if you're a chump.

Others Know the answer by your taxi speed.

[Brown Nose]

If you want to hate management etc by all means, but remember all companies managers are the same small brained nutters brownnosing each other in the office to climb their own ladder.

But if you are deliberately practicing poor airmanship then that's a whole different level of childishness, and you become just as bad as them and every other "terrible" pilot, try rise above it and set a good example to your co-pilot / captain. Who cares what these moronic managers are doing or saying, when you come to work just try at least have a good time and not plant it into the side of a mountain or even the runway because you're angry 24/7, leave the politics on the ground for the pub.

that is the most retarded post I have ever read on the forum. You must be the utmost loser to ever work for CX if you do actually work for them. Swire are them most immoral management in airline history that have raped pilots and you have the audacity to call it poor airmanship. Congratulations, you can now be capped as the number one pilot loser ever, well done! Please, continue to work for cathay, you deserve all you receive!

[dingodyle]

that is the most retarded post I have ever read on the forum. You must be the utmost loser to ever work for CX if you do actually work for them. Swire are them most immoral management in airline history that have raped pilots and you have the audacity to call it poor airmanship.

okay glad it's not just me, this guy thinks taxing slow = stalling with two engines in the jumbo over Y1, what??? So delusional lol like dude you work for cx on Cos18 who you setting an example for :D

Good post V, thanks for the book reccomend.

[MENELAUS]

okay glad it's not just me, this guy thinks taxing slow = stalling with two engines in the jumbo over Y1, what??? So delusional lol like dude you work for cx on Cos18 who you setting an example for :D

Good post V, thanks for the book reccomend.


Que ?

[Zi Peng]

small minded..

So Zi Peng from Angola and the rest who don't think this is pathetic, do you shut down 2 engines on the 74 during flight or maybe just throttle the 777 back to just above stall speed on your now 95hr flight from HK - LHR so you can earn an extra $200 at the end of the year? I mean where do you draw the line at being a bad airman? And do you do these sort of petty things in your every day life outside of aviation?

Airfares around the world have doubled since covid, but you're quite happy to quickly jump ship and head off to eg. Emirates who are screwing over their customers, but hey we don't care about them because I'm ok, how does that saying go, "ef you, Jack, I'm alright."

Aviation is now run by such petty people.

Just set a good example, there are others in the cockpit / office / home who might just look up to you.

You are obviously management, pro management for some reason or ex management.
Just check his posts.
You haven’t answered my question, why not check the why , the root cause.
All those guys that have been exemplary for years … now taxi slow ! Why ?
CX, probably you, have taken 6000hkd ( in my rank) from my salary just raising the threshold, don’t you dare talking to me and all of us about professionalism.
You raise a very interesting problem, what about the “kids” with no aviation background, spending 6/7 years as a sandwich officer then upgrading Gods knows how, doing 1.03 landing a month being exposed to such a toxic non professional environment. Those are the ones the company are banking on for the future.
Finally you are talking about setting the example; where did you go mgmt school, Dysneyland !
How about setting the example from the top ? Simplest way of leading, if you are not a natural leader, a good talker, set the ******* example !
So pretty please, don’t insult us further.

[mngmt mole]

Zi Peng. That was the best explanation of what they have done to the CX pilots, and why any strategy to recoup a few $$ back is more than justified. They created this situation.

[SloppyJoe]

It's surprising to read comments from people about professionalism, mentioning the other aircraft having to wait behind, selfishness.... There is not a single professional pilot that I know or work with, who would not be sympathetic, wait patiently feeling solidarity, as most have been through similar at some point and understand. It's the unprofessional ones who would get their knickers in a twist, worrying about otp not understanding the bigger picture. It's out of your hands so why worry, have their back and hope that the actions they do go some way to improve things. It's a world market in places like CX so any resistance to degradation of contracts helps. CX management have behaved despicably. At most 5 minutes, really, this is something that concerns you? That's unprofessional.

[magenta magnet]

Dumbfounded by the childish remarks and actions.

Years ago when a national airline was going under, salaries late, not paid, useless management (infinity times worse than CX management) theft, etc etc etc
Not 1 co-pilot or captain ever tried to screw the airline over by doing anything unprofessional. We loved flying, set an example to anyone and everyone. And what we went through was a hundred times worse than what CX and this new COS are.

Never once did we ever screw the airline over by deliberately doing acts that drag the airlines name down further, because that is pathetic.

Have some pride in what you do for heavens sake, or should everyone on this planet be an absolute tosser.

CX pilots used to be regarded as some of the most professional pilots out there, highly looked up to, but by reading these comments and what you "kids" are doing, it shows this airline is nothing more than another failed fly by night. In the long run you are all shooting yourself in the foot, cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you hate it so much, then why not leave because there are plenty of jobs going today.

[MENELAUS]

Dumbfounded by the childish remarks and actions.

Years ago when a national airline was going under, salaries late, not paid, useless management (infinity times worse than CX management) theft, etc etc etc
Not 1 co-pilot or captain ever tried to screw the airline over by doing anything unprofessional. We loved flying, set an example to anyone and everyone. And what we went through was a hundred times worse than what CX and this new COS are.

Never once did we ever screw the airline over by deliberately doing acts that drag the airlines name down further, because that is pathetic.

Have some pride in what you do for heavens sake, or should everyone on this planet be an absolute tosser.

CX pilots used to be regarded as some of the most professional pilots out there, highly looked up to, but by reading these comments and what you "kids" are doing, it shows this airline is nothing more than another failed fly by night. In the long run you are all shooting yourself in the foot, cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you hate it so much, then why not leave because there are plenty of jobs going today.

And that, Sir, is sense. Have your own views on your employer. Lord knows, you’re entitled. That said if you hate it so much that you feel
it necessary to act like longshoremen on strike then just buggar off. We’re supposed to be highly professional in all that we do. Behave that way.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Dumbfounded by the childish remarks and actions.

Years ago when a national airline was going under, salaries late, not paid, useless management (infinity times worse than CX management) theft, etc etc etc
Not 1 co-pilot or captain ever tried to screw the airline over by doing anything unprofessional. We loved flying, set an example to anyone and everyone. And what we went through was a hundred times worse than what CX and this new COS are.

Never once did we ever screw the airline over by deliberately doing acts that drag the airlines name down further, because that is pathetic.

Have some pride in what you do for heavens sake, or should everyone on this planet be an absolute tosser.

CX pilots used to be regarded as some of the most professional pilots out there, highly looked up to, but by reading these comments and what you "kids" are doing, it shows this airline is nothing more than another failed fly by night. In the long run you are all shooting yourself in the foot, cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you hate it so much, then why not leave because there are plenty of jobs going today.

You’re right we are professionals, so why aren’t we compensated as ones? Oh that’s right, we’re not considered an asset to the company, we’re just an expense to them.

CX decided to run its mainline operations like a LLC, remote/distant bays when possible, loading 90% of meals for a full flight, Minimum CC on board and a lacklustre product.

What’s next? Advertising stickers on the back of the seats and overhead bins?

[Jackschitt]

In the interest of solidarity, I would like to implore IFALPA to mandate that all members taxi at 5-10 kts in Hong Kong International Airport.

[KABOY]

It’s a sad state of affairs when taxi speeds becomes the most popular post in a professional forum.

There is no dignity in being a CX pilot, however the instagrammers are doing a good job( but they do get some doge coin for it)

May the circus continue, the lead actors are really making it look good..

[Oasis]

Law of unintended consequences.

I remember we had such a thing as 'overtime', where every minute netted me an extra 50 or 80 hkd, depending on how much overtime.
I was never in a rush under those conditions. It just felt I was robbing myself.

This was before cos 18, mind you. Now everyone is operating under "overtime" conditions all the time, times 4 in a long haul flight, you are also screwing the other crew, by shaving off a few minutes here and there.

Pay people based on what is rostered, and add more if the flight is longer. Easy fix.

[Rie]

Spot on Zi Peng. They cost everyone for the sake of a more "competitive" deal. This is just the competition.

[RichardJones]

Will operating crew soon be summoned for third floor interviews by someone who does not understand what happens on the line? Taxiing below 15 knots has become an issue with management apparantly. With lots of ground incidents happening across the globe, does management want a cathay aircraft to appear on the headlines for a ground collision? Ultimately, it is the Commanders responsibility to ensure the safety of an aircraft. The most recent email sent out by Mr.Burns mentioned that 'we pride ourselves on our pilots with high levels of proficiency and operational standards' but yet our pilots are being paid dirt cheap rates and constantly put up with sh*t and now are being threatened with management interrogations for taxiing slower than what they think is possible. This is just adding onto a pile of psychological problems for operating crew on top of the existing issues which were never rectified.

Unfortunately this is what crew have to face everyday so to the new joiners and interviewees I suggest you look elsewhere for employment. And to the frequent travelers who fly with cathay, if you aren't already doing so I beg that you fly with another carrier for your own sake.

Goodness me. When I was flying, if an operator told me to speed up on the taxi, they would have good a mouthful. You can take that to the bank.

Like speeding boy racers, those who participate in this foolishness, are a menace and a threat to ground safety.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Dumbfounded by the childish remarks and actions.

Years ago when a national airline was going under, salaries late, not paid, useless management (infinity times worse than CX management) theft, etc etc etc
Not 1 co-pilot or captain ever tried to screw the airline over by doing anything unprofessional. We loved flying, set an example to anyone and everyone. And what we went through was a hundred times worse than what CX and this new COS are.

Never once did we ever screw the airline over by deliberately doing acts that drag the airlines name down further, because that is pathetic.

Have some pride in what you do for heavens sake, or should everyone on this planet be an absolute tosser.

CX pilots used to be regarded as some of the most professional pilots out there, highly looked up to, but by reading these comments and what you "kids" are doing, it shows this airline is nothing more than another failed fly by night. In the long run you are all shooting yourself in the foot, cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you hate it so much, then why not leave because there are plenty of jobs going today.

Are you still in CX?
Are you aware of how CX is now perceived within the industry as a whole?

Your responses seems to be from someone who is completely removed from the current conditions and was only part of the company during its “golden era”.

[SabrinaSenior]

Dumbfounded by the childish remarks and actions.

Years ago when a national airline was going under, salaries late, not paid, useless management (infinity times worse than CX management) theft, etc etc etc
Not 1 co-pilot or captain ever tried to screw the airline over by doing anything unprofessional. We loved flying, set an example to anyone and everyone. And what we went through was a hundred times worse than what CX and this new COS are.

Never once did we ever screw the airline over by deliberately doing acts that drag the airlines name down further, because that is pathetic.

Have some pride in what you do for heavens sake, or should everyone on this planet be an absolute tosser.

CX pilots used to be regarded as some of the most professional pilots out there, highly looked up to, but by reading these comments and what you "kids" are doing, it shows this airline is nothing more than another failed fly by night. In the long run you are all shooting yourself in the foot, cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you hate it so much, then why not leave because there are plenty of jobs going today.

what exactly is the definition of professional to you? That you carry out your duty in the best interest of the company no matter what the company does to you?

then by your definition, pilots who go on strike are not professional, or for that matter anyone in any profession that go on strike is not professional...

[dingodyle]

Dumbfounded by the childish remarks and actions.

Years ago when a national airline was going under, salaries late, not paid, useless management (infinity times worse than CX management) theft, etc etc etc
Not 1 co-pilot or captain ever tried to screw the airline over by doing anything unprofessional. We loved flying, set an example to anyone and everyone. And what we went through was a hundred times worse than what CX and this new COS are.

Never once did we ever screw the airline over by deliberately doing acts that drag the airlines name down further, because that is pathetic.

Have some pride in what you do for heavens sake, or should everyone on this planet be an absolute tosser.

CX pilots used to be regarded as some of the most professional pilots out there, highly looked up to, but by reading these comments and what you "kids" are doing, it shows this airline is nothing more than another failed fly by night. In the long run you are all shooting yourself in the foot, cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you hate it so much, then why not leave because there are plenty of jobs going today.

Dumbfounded with how delusional and removed from reality you are.

I guess that makes two of us dumbfounded.

You are not treated as a professional, you are not paid as a professional, how much do you have to lose and still keep coming to work to "set a good example" & "have pride in what you do". Would you show up for work and work for free? Kinda sounds like you would. Wouldn't want to "set a bad example" or inconvenience the company right?
It's this kind of blind loyalty and compliance that has got us here in the first place. Isn't a general labour strike by very defenition "trying to screw over the airline"? You do you magenta, maybe if you race around the airport at 30kts you will get a lil pat on the head from management 🤡

[Australia2]

Thank god I’m out of it, what a toxic environment.

[Winemaker]

Thank god I’m out of it, what a toxic environment.
Gotta say, as SLF reading threads on PP, WTF is going on here? Is management really this blind?

[dingodyle]

Company sending such mixed messages. Taxi faster! ... butt I'll pay you more if you taxi slow 😏

[freightdoggiedog]

And that, Sir, is sense. Have your own views on your employer. Lord knows, you’re entitled. That said if you hate it so much that you feel
it necessary to act like longshoremen on strike then just buggar off. We’re supposed to be highly professional in all that we do. Behave that way.

Oh please, spare us the holier-than-thou attitude.

As one poster noted, by that logic, no worker would ever be able to strike (think of all those inconvenienced passengers, so unprofessional!), or enact any sort of protest at all. That would be fine in an ideal world, with concerned employers who actually took their employees’ interests into consideration.

In actual fact, we are saddled with cold-hearted bonus-obsessed managers who during covid saw fit to rip up our legal contracts, permanently slash our terms and conditions (by half in some cases), and topped it all off by imposing an absurd remuneration system which literally disincentivises efficiency, a system so dumb no other airline use it -not even hard-nosed low cost airlines or ME carriers.

We are not priests serving a divinity, or even doctors with a patient’s life in our hands. We are professionals who will always continue to put safety first and foremost, but for the rest, if the girls and boys are taxying around a little more slowly than usual, or not asking for directs anymore, is that so surprising? When every dollar you save the company is another dollar out of your own pocket and that of your colleague?

It’s a counter-productive system, and the sooner they change it the better. Knowing how hard-headed they are, I won’t be holding my breath, but as usual I am even more disappointed by the attitudes of some of my colleagues than I am by my employers.

[ZootBoot]

Easy to fix with an amendment to the handbook. Pay the higher of blocks or scheduled. It seems so simple.

I imagine the handbook will be updated to state flying time plus 10 minutes for taxi.

[Babyjet_dododo]

I imagine the handbook will be updated to state flying time plus 10 minutes for taxi.

That sounds about right, something CX swine management would implement, especially when HKIA is starting to get busy again. That’s exactly what that pilots want, giving more free time to the company.

[VforVENDETTA]

That sounds about right, something CX swine management would implement, especially when HKIA is starting to get busy again. That’s exactly what that pilots want, giving more free time to the company.
I would still taxi 5-10 knots regardless. You have to make sure the money they dont pay you comes out of their pocket anyway and then some. For instance, ever since our last pay negotiations when the company offered 1% if I remember correctly and then called the negotiations over when we voted that measly rise down, I went back to using full flaps/max reverse/10-15 kts taxi/starting APU asap off the runway/never again doing RETI, every single time. If you do the math it cost cathay astronomically more than what they would have to give just to keep up with inflation or maybe a little more to qualify as a raise, on my individual basis. And there are many others who have done the same.

If you Let them take money out of your pocket and do nothing about it, you're simply a chump. Professionalism has nothing to do with it. Look up the meaning of words in a dictionary and don't be delusional or worse, illiterate.

[CXDOG]

Dumbfounded by the childish remarks and actions.

Years ago when a national airline was going under, salaries late, not paid, useless management (infinity times worse than CX management) theft, etc etc etc
Not 1 co-pilot or captain ever tried to screw the airline over by doing anything unprofessional. We loved flying, set an example to anyone and everyone. And what we went through was a hundred times worse than what CX and this new COS are.

Never once did we ever screw the airline over by deliberately doing acts that drag the airlines name down further, because that is pathetic.

Have some pride in what you do for heavens sake, or should everyone on this planet be an absolute tosser.

CX pilots used to be regarded as some of the most professional pilots out there, highly looked up to, but by reading these comments and what you "kids" are doing, it shows this airline is nothing more than another failed fly by night. In the long run you are all shooting yourself in the foot, cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you hate it so much, then why not leave because there are plenty of jobs going today.
So the National Airline that you worked for was in serious financial difficulty? Did you take a 50% pay cut to help them out perhaps or did you continue to expect/demand your full terms and conditions? So assuming you were still fully paid during your airline’s time of need, then of course you went to work with a cheery smile and displayed exemplary professionalism.
CX on the other hand does NOT seem to be in financial trouble. They maintained a full workforce in the head office, has not sold one of its stored airplanes and in fact is continuing to accept new aircraft at pace, re-growing as quickly as crew numbers allow. They are holding numerous PR campaigns and even feel good parties.
So the paycut that was forced on me was purely a corporate accountant’s wet dream to save on expenses.
Let’s face it, this giant corporation could care less if I dawdle around at 10kts. The cost is minuscule. But as someone pointed out, those extra minutes add up over the course of a year to the benefit of my family and me. If I have to choose saving a faceless corporation those few extra dollars instead of granting them to my family then you know which one I’ll choose. Given that each and every time that this professional turns up to work as one the the lowest paid wide body pilots in the world, the company is already thousands of dollars ahead.

[mngmt mole]

And the irony is we were at one time the highest paid wide body pilots in the world. No amount of slow taxiing is going to make up for that loss. I completely agree with the sentiment however.

[RAT Management]

And the irony is we were at one time the highest paid wide body pilots in the world. No amount of slow taxiing is going to make up for that loss. I completely agree with the sentiment however.
Highest paid pilots that had the highest usage of De-rated Take offs and De Rated climbs in the world. Making us the envy of other operators, saving 100's of thousands in fuel and engine maintenance and longevity alone. Meanwhile all the other carriers were doing Toga takeoffs narrowing the already very thin margin between profit and expenditure. You can see where this is all heading if management don't actually apply the simple solution. Turns out good Airmanship and professionalism are linked to pay and conditions.

[bored]

There are plenty of jobs out there. If you're still at CX, you're either happy being abused or have no self respect.

[Sam Ting Wong]

There are plenty of jobs out there. If you're still at CX, you're either happy being abused or have no self respect.

This is not only a pretty arrogant statement, but it's also ignorant and simplistic. So many individual factors at play, from family to passport or age, just to name a few. You either did not think at all before posting or you have no capacity to put yourself into others shoes.

[RAT Management]

This is not only a pretty arrogant statement, but it's also ignorant and simplistic. So many individual factors at play, from family to passport or age, just to name a few. You either did not think at all before posting or you have no capacity to put yourself into others shoes.
Would be nice if everyone that was frustrated did leave. Because it would be pretty hard to run an airline without any pilots. It would also be useless chanting the mantras of quick upgrades, rostering seminars and giving sincere thanks for good Airmanship and professionalism. Let alone sending emails about taxi speeds.

But yeah, many factors at play, can't deny that.

​​​​​​

[bored]

This is not only a pretty arrogant statement, but it's also ignorant and simplistic. So many individual factors at play, from family to passport or age, just to name a few. You either did not think at all before posting or you have no capacity to put yourself into others shoes.

NO. Grow a set and make a long/medium term decision that will benefit you and your family. Every single pilot in CX has the option to go to either Emirates, AUS, the US, NZ, UK or Europe. I left at 52, so STFU about age. Family? In 5 years, how will your education allowance and housing (sorry, HK allowance) be doing to support your actual costs as HK bounces back and experiences the next property boom? You'll go backwards, and have to move into a smaller apartment working for those thieving criminals, and you know it!

Shooting the messenger and calling me arrogant is just stupid. You have absolutely no right to complain about your plight going forward if you stay working for CX. It may not seem like it, but I'm actually on your side....I just think you need a gentle virtual slap!!

You're welcome.

[Posterizing]

There are plenty of jobs out there. If you're still at CX, you're either happy being abused or have no self respect.

all the local 7 year SOs must have no self respect then, cuz theyre definitely not happy being abused. or maybe theyre not considered pilots so your statement does not apply?

[Posterizing]

NO. Grow a set and make a long/medium term decision that will benefit you and your family. Every single pilot in CX has the option to go to either Emirates, AUS, the US, NZ, UK or Europe. I left at 52, so STFU about age. Family? In 5 years, how will your education allowance and housing (sorry, HK allowance) be doing to support your actual costs as HK bounces back and experiences the next property boom? You'll go backwards, and have to move into a smaller apartment working for those thieving criminals, and you know it!

Shooting the messenger and calling me arrogant is just stupid. You have absolutely no right to complain about your plight going forward if you stay working for CX. It may not seem like it, but I'm actually on your side....I just think you need a gentle virtual slap!!

You're welcome.

for family, i cant disagree with moving when it comes to kids, but for those who for examples sake have two 70 year old parents dependant on their care who are definitely not moving anywhere away from HK. according to your theory should they be leaving them alone to take care of themselves in HK just for you to work in the middle east (the only place hiring non nationals) with no way of commuting back to take care of them? Sure youd still have to grow a ******* pair when the situation makes sense to leave but it cant truly be "no external factors matter" as youre preaching.

[AQIS Boigu]

NO. Grow a set and make a long/medium term decision that will benefit you and your family. Every single pilot in CX has the option to go to either Emirates, AUS, the US, NZ, UK or Europe. I left at 52, so STFU about age. Family? In 5 years, how will your education allowance and housing (sorry, HK allowance) be doing to support your actual costs as HK bounces back and experiences the next property boom? You'll go backwards, and have to move into a smaller apartment working for those thieving criminals, and you know it!

Shooting the messenger and calling me arrogant is just stupid. You have absolutely no right to complain about your plight going forward if you stay working for CX. It may not seem like it, but I'm actually on your side....I just think you need a gentle virtual slap!!

You're welcome.

You are almost right…

Our 7 year SOs (btw it is not 7 years anymore thank god) can’t but anyone with 500hrs P2 can indeed leave - even our South Africans or local pilots who keep telling everyone “I got nowhere to go…”

It is a personal choice

[Sam Ting Wong]

Bored, you are no messenger at all, everybody knows their options. Every single one of us. The problem is that you don't acknowledge individual differences. Just as an example, you assume living in a rental with kids in school. Postenzing above pointed out potential needs of family members, and I could give you a long list of other factors.We all have idiosyncratic obligations, limitations and preferences and people around us with again their obligations, limiations and preferences.

Now pull your head out of own butt and learn quickly how to consider other people's perspective, or you will not only disappoint random people online, but those you are close to.

You are welcome.

[Ecam321]

Bored, you are no messenger at all, everybody knows their options. Every single one of us. The problem is that you don't acknowledge individual differences. Just as an example, you assume living in a rental with kids in school. Postenzing above pointed out potential needs of family members, and I could give you a long list of other factors.We all have idiosyncratic obligations, limitations and preferences and people around us with again their obligations, limiations and preferences.

Now pull your head out of own butt and learn quickly or you will disappoint not only random people online, but those you are close to.

You are welcome.

That is the truth 👍

[mahogany bob]

What an extraordinary thread!

Have relations between crews and management sunk this low ?

Flight Safety??

In my day ( RAF ) we taxied and shutdown as quickly and safely as possible with the sole intention of getting to the bar ASAP

[mngmt mole]

"have relations between crews and management sunk this low".....? That was rhetorical wasn't it Mahogony ?

[Bokpiel]

Every single pilot in CX has the option to go to either Emirates, AUS, the US, NZ, UK or Europe.

Every single pilot? Please do tell how the low time SO’s with crap passports are suppose to get into any of those places you mentioned…

[Bokpiel]

You are almost right…

Our 7 year SOs (btw it is not 7 years anymore thank god) can’t but anyone with 500hrs P2 can indeed leave - even our South Africans or local pilots who keep telling everyone “I got nowhere to go…”

It is a personal choice

It is still 7 years on the 777.

[Rie]

Every single pilot? Please do tell how the low time SO’s with crap passports are suppose to get into any of those places you mentioned…
What difference does a passport make? SO time yes that's problematic but if a Russian can easily go to Dubai for a job right now I don't think there are many bad passports that can't make it.

[dingodyle]

What difference does a passport make? SO time yes that's problematic but if a Russian can easily go to Dubai for a job right now I don't think there are many bad passports that can't make it.

Cant go without a visa sponser if you can't get a job because your logbook is filled with p2x 🥸. Point is "there are loads of other jobs" is just not true. Home legacy carriers (QF, BA, UA, etc) require the respective passport. EK requires 2000hrs P2 (NOT P2X). E3 needs aus pass. SQ and AJ haven't hired yet. For 7 year SOs it's usually this or the streets.

[buggaluggs]

Cant go without a visa sponser if you can't get a job because your logbook is filled with p2x 🥸. Point is "there are loads of other jobs" is just not true. Home legacy carriers (QF, BA, UA, etc) require the respective passport. EK requires 2000hrs P2 (NOT P2X). E3 needs aus pass. SQ and AJ haven't hired yet. For 7 year SOs it's usually this or the streets.

Anyone would think CX had designed it that way!

[bored]

Every single pilot? Please do tell how the low time SO’s with crap passports are suppose to get into any of those places you mentioned…

Apologies to you. I should really have narrowed it to "every one with a rating, on here and whingeing". I do hope you upgrade soon so you can market yourself, get a job and live somewhere you can have a prosperous future.

[Pearly White]

Charging for doing any specific job by the hour is a conflict of interest. Conversely, framing a contract to pay someone by the hour to go from A to B is just asking for them to do it as slowly as possible. The behaviour is the proof!

I can't think of any jobs a client would want done that they'd enjoy paying more for taking longer. Ok, maybe one, but that's nothing to do with aviation.

They need to rethink the motivation they've built into what is evidently (I haven't read it) a very stupid Contract.

[controlledrest]

They need to rethink the motivation they've built into what is evidently (I haven't read it) a very stupid Contract.

We don't actually have a contract. COS18 is all company policy, which the company can change whenever they like to whatever they like.

[AQIS Boigu]

Qatar Airways only requires 500hrs in the RHS

[Sam Ting Wong]

maybe worth asking why

[Dingleberry Handpump]

maybe worth asking why
Yes.CX require zero, which is exactly what they’ll get. You just need someone with zero aptitude or personality to tell your stupendous pilot selection team that they grew up in HK looking up at the thin streak of light between the buildings, and if the pollution wasn’t in the red that day, they might have seen a 330 go over and it made them very excited.

How’s the DEFO recruitment going?

[mngmt mole]

Funny, but sadly true

[Sam Ting Wong]

Yawn. Tens of thousands of pilots who all started with zero hours as junior or second officers are now flying all over the world, with dozens of airlines, many as captains.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

maybe worth asking why
So, erm, yawn?

[main_dog]

Yawn. Tens of thousands of pilots who all started with zero hours as junior or second officers are now flying all over the world, with dozens of airlines, many as captains.

But whereas once most of their colleagues had to go through thousands of hours of GA or military flying learning the ropes before being allowed anywhere near an airliner (so ab initios at least flew primarily with people with that background and thus had some opportunity to learn from the experience of others), now they’re straight into the flight decks of wide bodies with maybe 250 hours, but increasingly paired with people of similar provenance.

This means fewer and fewer are capable of much more than routine automatic flight, which breeds lack of confidence in one’s skills, which is self-fulfilling in this game. When suddenly put in situations where aviating skill is required, the results are understandably less than stellar, reinforcing the idea in the industry that automation is the way forward, which in turn means more automation and fewer opportunities to build skills.

To be fair this erosion of skill due to increasing dependence on automation is true for experienced crews as well, but for inexperienced crews with little to fall back on it’s presumably worse.

To get back on topic, slow taxying may be partially down to increasing lack of experience as well as lack of recency for many (only partly tongue in cheek).

[Sam Ting Wong]

Not sure if everybody is aware of how long recruitment of zero to low hour applicants is actually going on... Many airlines employ cadets straight from school, since decades. It is standard practice, all over the world.

[BusyB]

Perhaps you should read "Fate is the Hunter" again

[Babyjet_dododo]

maybe worth asking why

So you make a snide remark to why QR is hiring low time pilots but you defend the reason why other airlines like CX hire zero hour pilots.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Not sure if everybody is aware of how long recruitment of zero to low hour applicants is actually going on... Many airlines employ cadets straight from school, since decades. It is standard practice, all over the world.

Every country has its own requirements, some countries only take cadets straight out of the military, some require you to have a degree for a cadet ship, some require you to only be a citizen to be considered for a cadet ship.

To say many airlines employ cadets straight from school is not right.

[Sam Ting Wong]

So you make a snide remark to why QR is hiring low time pilots but you defend the reason why other airlines like CX hire zero hour pilots.

You misunderstood me. QR has lower hour requirements than e.g. EK because they apparently have to lower the bar. Most would agree it's a difficult employer in a not very attractive place to live.
Regarding zero hour requirements for cadets, just pointing out that many airlines recruit this way, since 20+ years. I find the associated safety discussion futile, just look at the data. Plus the vast majority doesn't care who sits in the cockpit anymore anyway.

[Babyjet_dododo]

You misunderstood me. QR has lower hour requirements than e.g. EK because they apparently have to lower the bar. Most would agree it's a difficult employer in a not very attractive place to live.
Regarding zero hour requirements for cadets, just pointing out that many airlines recruit this way, since 20+ years. I find the associated safety discussion futile, just look at the data. Plus the vast majority doesn't care who sits in the cockpit anymore anyway.

please furnish your data, I’ll wait.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You can use literally any accident statistic. Note that there is no increase in accidents since introduction of cadets, quite the opposite really. Accidents are in steady decline and every year marks a new low, currently 0.7 accidents per 1 million flights. If you control and analyse the data for developed world aviation it's basically zero.
In the future automation will increase further, pilots will all but monitor. Think MTR driver with a red push button in front of them. As a consequence, safety is not a helpful argument for pay anymore, unfortunately. Mr and Mrs Wong from Guangzhou don't care who sits in the cockpit, they look at connection time, inflight entertainment or miles program, but really mainly at the price.

[KABOY]

You can use literally any accident statistic. Note that there is no increase in accidents since introduction of cadets, quite the opposite really. Accidents are in steady decline and every year marks a new low, currently 0.7 accidents per 1 million flights. If you control and analyse the data for developed world aviation it's basically zero.
In the future automation will increase further, pilots will all but monitor. Think MTR driver with a red push button in front of them. As a consequence, safety is not a helpful argument for pay anymore, unfortunately. Mr and Mrs Wong from Guangzhou don't care who sits in the cockpit, they look at connection time, inflight entertainment or miles program, but really mainly at the price.

CX780.

You truly are a short sighted individual, COS18 will be around for a long time whilst we have individuals who espouse this rubbish.

[VforVENDETTA]

CX780.

You truly are a short sighted individual, COS18 will be around for a long time whilst we have individuals who espouse this rubbish.
The next CX780 will be a lawn dart smoldering hole in the front yard.

Emirates had a crash in 2016 and a near crash just a few months ago that came within a couple of hundred feet of buildings. cathay has had a hard landing pandemic on the 747 fleet lately. Coincidentally with a reduction of experienced crew. "Coincidentally"

That red button you speak of has yet to be invented for airliner aircraft. Nothing inherently unsafe with hiring cadets, providing robust training and years of experience built up. If you remove qualifications and experience too soon before the cadets can be safely brought online, there will he a gap thru which its easy to lose aircraft and most importantly reputation. I'd like to see Mr & Mrs Ho get on a cathay flight after a well publicized event.

An airline that has to fill close to 2000 pilot jobs asap doesn't have the luxury of time to develop cadets to fill them anyway.

[mngmt mole]

Couldn't be better said.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You guys are riding a dead horse.

[Busbuoy]

You guys are riding a dead horse.
Sadly they are not.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The next CX780 will be a lawn dart smoldering hole

Emirates had a crash in 2016 and a near crash just a few months ago that came within a couple of hundred feet of buildings. cathay has had a hard landing pandemic on the 747 fleet lately. Coincidentally with a reduction of experienced crew. "Coincidentally"The captain was a 34-year-old UAE national who had been with Emirates since March 2001 and had logged 7,457 flight hours, including 5,123 hours on the Boeing 777.[1] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521#cite_note-Final-1) The first officer was 37-year-old Australian national who had been with Emirates since October 2014 and had 7,957 flight hours, with 1,292 of them on the Boeing 777.


Where do you see a connection to cadets at CX? Experience clearly was not an issue. Fatigue seems more likely, considering rostering at EK..

CX780.

You truly are a short sighted individual, COS18 will be around for a long time whilst we have individuals who espouse this rubbish.

Same question. Where is the connection?
Again, THOUSANDS of cadets flying and every year almost zero incidents. What is so hard to see? The data can't be more clear. Plus the customer doesn't care, nobody except some nerds even heard about these incidents.

[BuzzBox]

Experience clearly was not an issue.

That might depend on how you measure "experience"...:=

[Sam Ting Wong]

Look, I don't dispute that if every pilot had F16 carrier landing experience flying would be safer. But by how much? Which part of near zero accidents don't you guys understand??


How many of the Top 11 employ cadets/ low hour junior F/O??The Top 20 Safest Airlines For 2023

Qantas
Air New Zealand
Etihad Airways
Qatar Airways
Singapore Airlines
TAP Air Portugal
Emirates
Alaska Airlines
EVA Air
Virgin Australia/Atlantic
Cathay Pacific Airways


Which part is so hard to understand????

[Posterizing]

Look, I don't dispute that if every pilot had F16 carrier landing experience flying would be safer. But by how much? Which part of near zero accidents don't you guys understand??


How many of the Top 11 employ cadets/ low hour junior F/O??The Top 20 Safest Airlines For 2023

Qantas
Air New Zealand
Etihad Airways
Qatar Airways
Singapore Airlines
TAP Air Portugal
Emirates
Alaska Airlines
EVA Air
Virgin Australia/Atlantic
Cathay Pacific Airways


Which part is so hard to understand????

the part where an F16 lands on a carrier, I jest I jest

[BuzzBox]

the part where an F16 lands on a carrier...

That'd be a neat trick! :E

[Bekol delay]

How long before we get cadets with J15 carrier experience?

[Dingleberry Handpump]

You’re 66% less likely to have an incident when your airline is only operating a third of its capacity.

STW’s Stockholm Syndrome is well documented. Ironically, he accuses others of flogging a dead horse.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Statistical literacy is not a hallmark in here. Of course the ranking reflects a ratio, flown miles vs incidents etc.

Fact is that 7ish of the top 11 safest airlines hire cadets. You can continue to call that defending or praising Cx, but nothing could be further from the truth. I am stating facts. You can quote obscure flight numbers and whisper scandalous alleged near crashes all day long, fact is cadets are industry practice, since decades. To single out CX is ludicrous. And again, this is NOT defending them, it is pointing out FACTS.

I don't care about management or be called management stooge/ stockholm etc, because management is not important in the end.They are the symptom of the desease, not the cause. It's futile and frankly simple-minded to target them. It's the market which dictates the price of labor, not a single company. Covid gave them the unicorn chance to cut the T&C because they could not care less if pilots gave notice. Of course they used that. Time will tell if they have to pay more, but whoever points at cadets or talks about safety needs to look into the mirror first. Anybody not leaving is supporting COS 18. Stop being hypocrits and whinge about alleged safety risks, it's pathetic. If you stay you are collaborating, period. And if you did quit and accepted lower conditions elsewhere you are serving just a different master. Anybody who reads this IS the market. Stop blaming others or fake safety concerns. This is about money, be at least honest.

And whoever thinks American operators pay more because they value pilots higher needs to check into a mental institution. It's ONLY the market that is forcing them to pay more. No airline pays more than they have to. Different union power, migration / legislation laws, DEMAND AND SUPPLY, that is what decides in the end.

[lucille]

Head of nail, meet STW’s hammer.

STW is 100% correct. It’s all about the money. One way or another, everything is always about the money.

[VforVENDETTA]

The captain was a 34-year-old UAE national who had been with Emirates since March 2001 and had logged 7,457 flight hours, including 5,123 hours on the Boeing 777.[1] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521#cite_note-Final-1) The first officer was 37-year-old Australian national who had been with Emirates since October 2014 and had 7,957 flight hours, with 1,292 of them on the Boeing 777.


Where do you see a connection to cadets at CX? Experience clearly was not an issue. Fatigue seems more likely, considering rostering at EK..



Same question. Where is the connection?
Again, THOUSANDS of cadets flying and every year almost zero incidents. What is so hard to see? The data can't be more clear. Plus the customer doesn't care, nobody except some nerds even heard about these incidents.

I said there's nothing inherently dangerous about hiring cadets, provided it's done right. None of those airlines you listed have had 1700 pilots bleed off from the top heavy end in 2.5 years and then try to replace them with cadets and some individuals with fake logbooks.

Experience is not just a matter of how long one has been doing a job. we've all worked with some who despite their many many thousands of hours and years at the job regardless of seat or rank, are terrible at their job. You can hire people like that who nobody else will hire, if you don't pay ****. When you don't pay ****, the people you lose are the ones others love to hire, and these are coincidentally the ones you can least afford to lose. Cathay has lost 1700 of those at last count. It goes against logic to think this has not had an effect on safety of the operation. Plus, the ones who are desperate enough to still be there under the financial stress of having lost 50% pay & benefits are not by any means at their average performance levels.

Cathay has been hiring individuals who after struggling in training are found to have fake logbooks with fake hours in them. That's how things are at cathay today. Remembering how difficult cathay's selection process used to be and to what lows it has sunk today, I feel guilty laughing my ass off... just a little.

it's funny Cathay isn't even in the top 10 list of safest airlines today. It's number 11.

[Posterizing]

well the good news is now cadets get 2 months of work experience as ground handlers in HKIA. Im sure theyll be extra sharp with the suitcase carrying/ baggage loading onto the crew busses etc. when they finally check to line.

[Bekol delay]

3 x 9-hour shifts per week, I wonder what their threshold is?

[KABOY]

well the good news is now cadets get 2 months of work experience as ground handlers in HKIA. Im sure theyll be extra sharp with the suitcase carrying/ baggage loading onto the crew busses etc. when they finally check to line.

That's because nobody wants to do the job and CX have taken the liberty to change a job description for a cadet pilot.

With COS 18 there might be a change to the handbook where all pilots will need to do a rotation on the tarmac to make HK great again.

When are those HK employer of the year awards due again?

[Piet Lood]

Head of nail, meet STW’s hammer.

STW is 100% correct. It’s all about the money. One way or another, everything is always about the money.

He is! He’s also just so bloody arrogant.
Why can’t Mighty Mouse never seem to make a point without also pointing out his own superiority and commenting on others’ “lack of literacy”.
His air of superiority always overshadows his already obvious “intellect”.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Of those “7ish of the 11 safest airlines” who hire cadets, what kind of proportions are we talking about, STW?

I’m all for cadet hiring, as part of a wider hiring mix. So are many airlines. At most of those carriers, it’s a few percent of the total intake for obvious reasons. At CX it’s going to be almost all of it. The top half the of the experience shelf has collapsed. Don’t be so stupid as to pretend this isn’t impacting safety.

Oh - I thought the baggage handling/toilet cleaning secondment missives were a late April fools joke. Please tell me I’m right. Please.

Quite incredible to see what’s going on.

[dabz]

Rumour is training cadet SOs is so low priority in the training system that new cadets are now to do up to 3 months on ground duties at the airport.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Piet, it's a bit difficult to stay well-mannered when you get called as many names as me. The moment you point out flaws in an argument against CX you are immediately a company stooge etc. In fact, just this morning I received a friendly PM from a user calling himself "nkund" to suggest I should suck his (allegedly) generously proportioned gonads. You will be pleased to hear I respectfully declined, in the most polite words possible in such circumstances.

But sure, let's stay civilised, I'll try.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

To be frank, I would think that it’s not your lack of civility that rubs people the wrong way; more that you come over as an unpleasant, pompous know-it-all. We all have to endure it in in the flight deck, but thankfully it’s infrequent.

[Sam Ting Wong]

[QUOTE=Dingleberry Handpump;11430301]

STW’s Stockholm Syndrome is well documented. /QUOTE]

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Yes, STW, I’m that guy people hate flying with.

Regardless, your continual and unwavering defence of CX suggests a very clear picture here.

[Piet Lood]

Piet, it's a bit difficult to stay well-mannered when you get called as many names as me. The moment you point out flaws in an argument against CX you are immediately a company stooge etc. In fact, just this morning I received a friendly PM from a user calling himself "nkund" to suggest I should suck his (allegedly) generously proportioned gonads. You will be pleased to hear I respectfully declined, in the most polite words possible in such circumstances.

But sure, let's stay civilised, I'll try.

You ever wonder WHY you get called as many names as you?

[Sam Ting Wong]

I know exactly why. It's a defense mechanism.

One of the most threatening events for humans is change. When an industry changes as dramatically as the airline industry does, it creates fear and (secondary) anger. In these situations, humans need an object ( but not themselve and nothing too abstract) to project their anger at. You can observe that very well in politics. A problem is rarely seen as the responsibility of the voter, global circumstances or general human behaviour, it's this or that guy who is responsible. As a consequence you have a whole media industry who concentrates on outrage and anger (Daily Mail, Tucker Carlson etc). The entire business model is to channel the general indignation and anger, and direct it at something (Elites, Washington, the spoiled and entitled Generation Y, Hunter Biden, Transgender, Harry, whatever). If you are left of center you blame big corporations, Boomers or Murdoch. Same principle.

Pilots need to deflect the anger by blaming an entity, like the company or a person just as well. Note the widespread need to vent the first minutes on the crew bus. In these rants, very rarely you hear someone questionning their own career choice or reflecting on global warming. Not once I have heard someone blaming the virus itself. It's always the company, a certain fleet ( not your own), A/B/C/D scale ( again, never your own), cadets ( if none actually on the bus), one specific politician or a certain manager who is the focus. At home the platform to vent is pprune.It gives us a target, a focus.A relief. It's classic scapegoating.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

It really isn’t a defence mechanism.

[Piet Lood]

I know exactly why. It's a defense mechanism.

One of the most threatening events for humans is change. When an industry changes as dramatically as the airline industry does, it creates fear and (secondary) anger. In these situations, humans need an object ( but not themselve and nothing too abstract) to project their anger at. You can observe that very well in politics. A problem is rarely seen as the responsibility of the voter, global circumstances or general human behaviour, it's this or that guy who is responsible. As a consequence you have a whole media industry who concentrates on outrage and anger (Daily Mail, Tucker Carlson etc). The entire business model is to channel the general indignation and anger, and direct it at something (Elites, Washington, the spoiled and entitled Generation Y, Hunter Biden, Transgender, Harry, whatever). If you are left of center you blame big corporations, Boomers or Murdoch. Same principle.

Pilots need to deflect the anger by blaming an entity, like the company or a person just as well. Note the widespread need to vent the first minutes on the crew bus. In these rants, very rarely you hear someone questionning their own career choice or reflecting on global warming. Not once I have heard someone blaming the virus itself. It's always the company, a certain fleet ( not your own), A/B/C/D scale ( again, never your own), cadets ( if none actually on the bus), one specific politician or a certain manager who is the focus. At home the platform to vent is pprune.It gives us a target, a focus.A relief. It's classic scapegoating.


HAHAHAHA! That’s rich and ironic.
You state that “we the people” fail to look inward, while….wait for it….failing to look inward.

I asked you why YOU were called so many names (out of dozens of fragrant harbourers) and you blame….us…..for failing to accept responsibility.

Maybe it’s just your arrogant, know-it-all-attitude, but no, that can’t be it…..or can it?

It is my honest opinion that you are probably just as often right as you are wrong, but even if you are right, I can’t stand your holier-than-thou tone of “voice”/writing skills.
I don’t find that to this extent with any other ppruner and it reminds me of one or two colleagues I shared a cockpit with.
It’s annoying as crap!
But hey, that’s entirely my bad. If I didn’t want to spend time with you locked up in a flightdeck, I should have chosen another career field!

[Klimax]

If you want to hate management etc by all means, but remember all companies managers are the same small brained nutters brownnosing each other in the office to climb their own ladder.

But if you are deliberately practicing poor airmanship then that's a whole different level of childishness, and you become just as bad as them and every other "terrible" pilot, try rise above it and set a good example to your co-pilot / captain. Who cares what these moronic managers are doing or saying, when you come to work just try at least have a good time and not plant it into the side of a mountain or even the runway because you're angry 24/7, leave the politics on the ground for the pub.

I spend about 5 years in this clown company! You good Sir, clearly can not possibly phantom the little sh@ts that grow in the Cathay Pathetic management office (used to be L8 at Hello Kitty City!) - if you could - you´d understand a lot more, than you clearly seem too understand about the outfit in question. Can´t blame you - it´s very, very hard to imagine from the outside world!

[RichardJones]

Well you have to be careful what you say on this forum of.course. As in all countries the techknowledgy is there to track you down, should you have the audacity to print our such vile truths.
I remember years ago, Cathy was only open to sky gods. Now look at it.
You really have no choice but to roll over on your backs, legs up to these people. Unless the crews are prepared to take action, enmass.
What about a mass sick out, for example? The chances of pilots sticking together for this sought of putative action are zero. Shame, as these clowns and robots could be bought to their knees.
Slaves to the industry.

[RAT Management]

The quick fix has finally been applied. Except it won't come into effect until October, and even then only a 6 month "trial".

The 6 months will give them a taxi speed datum. Followed by a reversion to block time only again.

The game is only just beginning.

[Oasis]

If only the company could have some organisation for the pilots to converse with, so that the actions of the pilots wouldn’t end up in the papers.

that way the company would know what the sentiments of the pilots would be.

it would be so efficient.

[corporal klinger]

Or they could establish a mental connection between morale and motivation and a 40 % paycut. Also a possibility.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Or they could establish a mental connection between morale and motivation and a 40 % paycut. Also a possibility.

“We are a data driven company” - If there survey doesn’t reflect that it was because of salary cuts then it doesn’t exist in their minds

[BunkPunk]

Dumbfounded with how delusional and removed from reality you are.

I guess that makes two of us dumbfounded.

You are not treated as a professional, you are not paid as a professional, how much do you have to lose and still keep coming to work to "set a good example" & "have pride in what you do". Would you show up for work and work for free? Kinda sounds like you would. Wouldn't want to "set a bad example" or inconvenience the company right?
It's this kind of blind loyalty and compliance that has got us here in the first place. Isn't a general labour strike by very defenition "trying to screw over the airline"? You do you magenta, maybe if you race around the airport at 30kts you will get a lil pat on the head from management 🤡

Probably he (and the other heroes) will get a pat on the wingtip from an unseen obstacle…. Careful with this, it’s silly to charge around at 30 knots. Ops A also specifically states that there is no rush and to taxy defensively. It’s silly also to penny-pinch like this- just simply get real and pay sched or better!

[BunkPunk]

Pilots who expect a change should be grateful that the company is at least 'honest'.

Other airlines pay 6 months profit share these days.
The best Cathay comes up with to stop the bleeding is to pay people rostered or flown BH, whichever is higher, well oh no, not right now, from October onwards, as a trial and maybe after the trial, perhaps, maybe or whatever.
At least they are persistent with their political spin, which won't make a difference in renumeration at all.
People are hitting 900 hrs already - with or without rostered or flown BH. It will be the same salary at the end.
Cathay and its accomplice the SCMP are spinning it as a pay rise, which it's not - you can't get paid more than for 900 hrs.
Furthermore they send new joiners to work at the airport for a while or to HKE to earn even less.

Well that will attract more applicants compared to 6 months profit share, won't it ?

This place will never change and with their latest announcements they are exactly telling you that.

Frank….. LOL CX and honesty in the same sentence….made me laugh mate! Your sarcasm is noted and I fully agree with all your points.

But in all seriousness- it’s all fun and games with high taxy speeds until some unfortunate hero smacks a wingtip or doesn’t hold short when they should have, and then we will see Ops A being brought out to smack the individuals during tea and biscuits. Don’t be silly chaps… taxy safely out there. There are other airlines that also taxi very slowly, I’ve noticed as a passenger (Qatar, Singapore and BA are prime examples). It’s unfair for anyone on here (management and otherwise) to point fingers only at CX crew.