RAF says transgender cadets can wear uniform of either sex and advises on chest binde

[Spartacan]

Please reassure me - Is this April Fool?

RAF says transgender cadets can wear uniform of either sex and advises on chest binders (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/31/raf-cadets-gender-uniform-chest-binders-diversity/)

[Ninthace]

Please reassure me - Is this April Fool?

RAF says transgender cadets can wear uniform of either sex and advises on chest binders (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/31/raf-cadets-gender-uniform-chest-binders-diversity/)
It is no biggy. If you think about it, all that is being done is to allow whatever process a child may be going thorough to continue during a weekly Cadet meeting or Summer Camp. The DT has totally misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented what the Air Cadets are as an organisation, implying they are part of the RAF rather than a youth organisation for teenagers interested in the RAF. You can also be assured that nothing would be done without parental consent as the laws covering the management of youth organisation are quite stringent.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

A question if people don't mind; is it due to the nature of a changing society that it has become necessary for youth organisations to seek guidance on gender transition/reassignment ? Male and female Army/Navy/Air cadets have existed harmoniously for ages. A male cadet wearing a female uniform or vice versa isn't controversial, but getting guidance what has been portrayed as a radical organisation such as Mermaids would seem risky.

I speak as an "oldie" who was in the Scouts prior to joining the Army at age 16. The Scouts of my youth taught self reliance, survival skills, basic bushcraft etc. Gender issues weren't thought of at all, I guess because in the 60s and early 70s they were less of an issue.

NEO

[ORAC]

All organisation working with children have a duty of safeguarding - otherwise the6 are at risk of being sued or fac8ng cr8minalmcharges if anything untoward occurs.

In the case it flows down from the MOD - JSP 834.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1037470/JSP_834_Part_1_V5.2_Nov_2021.pdf

https://www.sea-cadets.org/userfiles/files/20190903-CadetForcesSafeguardingFramework_Sep19.pdf


Do a google search in organisations and safeguarding and you’ll find the Army, RAF and Sea Cadet forces near the top of the list.

[jayteeto]

A question that is often asked is what uniform? Which fitness test? Which toilet?
Well done RAFAC for addressing REAL issues that are happening out the right now.
Some of you might not like it, but this is the world we are now in. There are some GREAT kids out there who deserve equal chances. A choice of uniform is not going to affect any of us

[Easy Street]

The approach taken by gender advocacy groups like Mermaids and Stonewall has been to avoid public or Parliamentary debate of their causes and secure change through directly influencing policy makers, whether that be ministers, civil servants, companies' HR departments, HQ Air Cadets, or whatever. As we've seen with the closure of the Tavistock Centre and the rapid undoing of the Scottish Government's gender recognition agenda, it has fallen squarely on the Press to bring such matters to public attention, and (in the Tavistock's case) for the courts to host the difficult conversations which result. I am sure that without the threat of such scrutiny, there would be many more examples of such overreach. So I welcome light being shone into these corners, even if it turns out there is nothing to see in each individual case, because it keeps change within the bounds which society as a whole is prepared to tolerate.

[Ninthace]

It really is a non story IMHO. The Scouts, Guides and other youth organisations will be facing and addressing the same issues. The DT is trying to stir things up to provide read meat for its readership. All that is being proposed is that for the couple of hours the a Cadet meeting takes, any child that is experiencing an issue with their gender can continue during the meeting as they did before and will do after.

[m0nkfish]

It is no biggy. If you think about it, all that is being done is to allow whatever process a child may be going thorough to continue during a weekly Cadet meeting or Summer Camp. The DT has totally misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented what the Air Cadets are as an organisation, implying they are part of the RAF rather than a youth organisation for teenagers interested in the RAF. You can also be assured that nothing would be done without parental consent as the laws covering the management of youth organisation are quite stringent.


IMHO it is significant. I've had my kids coming back from school and questioning their gender. My daughter declared she was transexual because her teacher told her so. When I dug a little deeper she had no real understanding of what being transexual actually means and had completely misinterpreted what her teacher was saying. Exposing young people, who through immaturity lack the ability to properly comprehend what they are being taught, to complex gender theories is causing much more issues than it is solving.

As a society we are absolutely playing with fire over these gender concepts. We have no idea of the damage we are doing to our young people in this crazy experiment that appears to me to be about accommodating a very small minority of people. At my work we were told we had to append pronouns to our e-mails and I've yet to see anyone use a pronoun that isn't either he or her and every single person is identifying with their biological sex.

All this change has happened slowly and without our consent. Organisations and charities have been lobbying behind closed doors and coercing people into compliance with their ideological viewpoints. If you speak out now you are vilified, and even hounded on social media. There is no possibility of debate on this topic anymore. And it's very disappointing to see that the RAF has now also found themselves sucked into this nonsense.

[Ninthace]

IMHO it is significant. I've had my kids coming back from school and questioning their gender. My daughter declared she was transexual because her teacher told her so. When I dug a little deeper she had no real understanding of what being transexual actually means and had completely misinterpreted what her teacher was saying. Exposing young people, who through immaturity lack the ability to properly comprehend what they are being taught, to complex gender theories is causing much more issues than it is solving.

As a society we are absolutely playing with fire over these gender concepts. We have no idea of the damage we are doing to our young people in this crazy experiment that appears to me to be about accommodating a very small minority of people. At my work we were told we had to append pronouns to our e-mails and I've yet to see anyone use a pronoun that isn't either he or her and every single person is identifying with their biological sex.

All this change has happened slowly and without our consent. Organisations and charities have been lobbying behind closed doors and coercing people into compliance with their ideological viewpoints. If you speak out now you are vilified, and even hounded on social media. There is no possibility of debate on this topic anymore. And it's very disappointing to see that the RAF has now also found themselves sucked into this nonsense.
Do they have a choice but to address the issue if it is in the schools and the homes . . .
The only thing the Cadets can do is respect the parents wishes, whatever they are and that requires a policy.

[Ken Scott]

I instruct at my local RAFAC Sqn, I have heard nothing regarding this and don’t really see it as an issue. We have a good bunch of boys and a few girls, the parents are mostly quite close to matters so I don’t think there could be any possibility of things happening without their knowledge. Most of the girls wear trousers just like the boys do, if the latter wanted to wear a skirt then so what?

[[email protected]]

There are and always have been, some people with genuine gender dysmorphia - I have worked with a couple - but the number of people, especially young ones, identifying as the opposite gender (or even none at all) is way out of proportion presently.

The gender fluidity issues (whilst absolutely genuine for some) seem to be mired in fashionable lifestyle choices and the desires of easily influenced young minds to want to mimic the fashion/music/social media 'stars' they are bombarded with daily.

[m0nkfish]

Do they have a choice but to address the issue if it is in the schools and the homes . . .
The only thing the Cadets can do is respect the parents wishes, whatever they are and that requires a policy.


Although the article has a quote from an 'insider' that reads: “If a child decides they are trans and tells the group instructor then that instructor is not allowed to tell their parents.”, this is probably the most concerning aspect of the article for me.

And this policy isn't addressed the issue, it's fuelling it by normalising what is still a controversial theory amongst many parents.

[Ninthace]

Although the article has a quote from an 'insider' that reads: “If a child decides they are trans and tells the group instructor then that instructor is not allowed to tell their parents.”, this is probably the most concerning aspect of the article for me.

And this policy isn't addressed the issue, it's fuelling it by normalising what is still a controversial theory amongst many parents.

That would be separate issue if the parents had not expressed a wish on how the child how the child should be treated. TBH, within the context of a Cadets' meeting, I am not sure what difference it would make beyond which pronoun to use. The issue would come if the parents insisted on one gender and the child insisted on another.
However, this is not a societal issue and should not be laid at the door of the Air Cadets to solve.

[Spartacan]

My son is at sixth form college where the trans agenda is being actively promoted. He's told me they are actively screwing young people up.

The whole gender / trans debate is utterly sickening. I would be avoiding the RAF Air Cadets quite frankly. I expect many parents will after that news iten. It's the one issue that is really uniting people against the insanity that comes out of the Department for Education.

[Sleeve Wing]

Simples. You've either got one or you haven't ! Don't lets start ANOTHER industry staffed by inadequates.

OK, coat........... :ugh:

[charliegolf]

My son is at sixth form college where the trans agenda is being actively promoted. He's told me they are actively screwing young people up.

I would be avoiding the RAF Air Cadets quite frankly. .

But you're keeping your boy at the college?

CG

[charliegolf]

and had completely misinterpreted what her teacher was saying.

Have you asked in detail WHAT was being taught, what the learning objectives were, and where in the scheme of work is the demand it be taught? If a child can completely misinterpret the teacher, the teacher needs to change his/her delivery. Maybe a kid asked what transgender meant?

​​​​​​​CG

[Ninthace]

My son is at sixth form college where the trans agenda is being actively promoted. He's told me they are actively screwing young people up.

The whole gender / trans debate is utterly sickening. I would be avoiding the RAF Air Cadets quite frankly. I expect many parents will after that news iten. It's the one issue that is really uniting people against the insanity that comes out of the Department for Education.
But the Air Cadets are not actively promoting children becoming transgender.. One could argue that since the foster common sense and thinking for yourself, the reverse may be true. What they have actually done is give their staff guidance for situations they may encounter,

[ORAC]

Although the article has a quote from an 'insider' that reads: “If a child decides they are trans and tells the group instructor then that instructor is not allowed to tell their parents.”, this is probably the most concerning aspect of the article for me.
That's actually the law.

Many children come from homes and backgrounds where being known to be gay or trans would lead to physical, let alone mental abuse. I personally know one trans girl who got thrown out of her home and ended up on the streets until a charity took her in - same thing happens to many others when they are "outed".

Parents don't own children and don't always know best. If a child shares such information in confidence the recipient, whether a teacher or a cadet instructor, is obliged not to inform anyone apart from the appropriately trained safeguarding officials in the chain of organisation. They are protected under both privacy and GDPR regulations.*

Those who have broken that rule have been sacked for gross misconduct and the punishment upheld in employment tribunal judgements.

*See section 8.

https://tinyurl.com/ycyd5ymr (https://www.hcrlaw.com/blog/transgender-pupils-key-considerations-for-schools/)

[Easy Street]

That's actually the law.

Many children come from homes and backgrounds where being known to be gay or trans would lead to physical, let alone mental abuse. I personally know one trans girl who got thrown out of her home and ended up on the streets until a charity took her in - same thing happens to many others when they are "outed".

Parents don't own children and don't always know best. If a child shares such information in confidence the recipient, whether a teacher or a cadet instructor, is obliged not to inform anyone apart from the appropriately trained safeguarding officials in the chain of organisation. They are protected under both privacy and GDPR regulations.*



That's a very partial account, very much in line with the approach taken by gender lobbyists: asserting something as a self-evident truth with the aim of discouraging or deflecting challenge or dissent. This very subject was in the news yesterday (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65127170) and it's very much *not* the law that children have an absolute right of confidentiality from their parents in these matters. The Government is to issue fresh guidance to schools after a think-tank used FOI requests to uncover the extent of confusion (let's be charitable and call it that) among secondary schools over disclosure. As I said above, we seem to be entirely reliant on the Press and other commentators to keep the likes of the education sector honest.

The Prime Minister says:

"These are really sensitive areas, it's important that we treat them sensitively, and that parents know what's going on, and we'll make sure that that happens."

[chevvron]

I instruct at my local RAFAC Sqn, I have heard nothing regarding this and don’t really see it as an issue. We have a good bunch of boys and a few girls, the parents are mostly quite close to matters so I don’t think there could be any possibility of things happening without their knowledge.
Which makes me wonder about todays date.

[Finningley Boy]

I had no idea there were openly transgender folk serving. Somehow this suggests a messy disintegrating future.:(

FB

[Ninthace]

I had no idea there were openly transgender folk serving. Somehow this suggests a messy disintegrating future.:(

FB
When I joined. being gay or pregnant could get you the sack. By the time I left, not only was it not an issue but we had people transition from one sex to another. Yet the world carried on turning and the RAF kept right on going. No biggy.

[langleybaston]

Most "News" these days looks like an April Fool wind-up.

That is what happens when the lunatics take over the asylum.

If it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change. [I think it was Wellington]

[ORAC]

FB, I am sure you said the same about gays, and perhaps another groups.

Perhaps you should just thank them for their service, like everyone else serving?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-25/transgender-pilot-ayla-holdom-royal-wedding-prince-william/9691102

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11823617/Britains-openly-trans-Army-officer-says-ordered-shoot-came-out.html

[muppetofthenorth]

My son is at sixth form college where the trans agenda is being actively promoted. He's told me they are actively screwing young people up.

The whole gender / trans debate is utterly sickening. I would be avoiding the RAF Air Cadets quite frankly. I expect many parents will after that news iten. It's the one issue that is really uniting people against the insanity that comes out of the Department for Education.
The air cadets is better off for your absence.

[ExAscoteer2]

WOW! There's some apparent bigotry on this thread!

[chevvron]

It's April 1st fer chrissake!

[Ninthace]

It's April 1st fer chrissake!
Allegedly not, though DT is the sole source, probably leaked to the paper by someone with an agenda and perhaps, being charitable, half the story.
The DT's official AF was a rather weak story about turning the Post Office Tower to a wind turbine.

[ExAscoteer2]

There have been Trans people as long as humans have walked this Earth.

There is very, VERY, good, peer reviewed, research that indicates Trans is a form of Intersex at the sub-chromosomal level ie gene switching.

But hey, close minded, predudiced bigots, with ZERO genetic education, are going to continue to bigot.

I thought we lived in the 21stC.

Apparently not.

I despair.

[olster]

Yup, here come the insults. Predictable. Opposing views must be closed down due perceived terminal bigotry. Another word bandied around liberally like fascist. Generally I have a take it or leave view of the world and letting people live their lives without prejudice. Fortunately I still live in a country that allows freedom of thought (just). I can’t help thinking that this bizarre obsession with trans ideology is highly damaging to a young person’s mental health. Just my opinion. The RAF can wring their hands over sexual politics, diversity etc but it hardly instils confidence in their primary role as an airborne fighting force.

[[email protected]]

There have been Trans people as long as humans have walked this Earth.

There is very, VERY, good, peer reviewed, research that indicates Trans is a form of Intersex at the sub-chromosomal level ie gene switching.

But hey, close minded, predudiced bigots, with ZERO genetic education, are going to continue to bigot.

I thought we lived in the 21stC.

Apparently not.

I despair.

But what percentage of the population does this study say it affects? I can't believe it is anything like the number we see wanting to jump on the trans bandwagon.

[m0nkfish]

There have been Trans people as long as humans have walked this Earth.

There is very, VERY, good, peer reviewed, research that indicates Trans is a form of Intersex at the sub-chromosomal level ie gene switching.

But hey, close minded, predudiced bigots, with ZERO genetic education, are going to continue to bigot.

I thought we lived in the 21stC.

Apparently not.

I despair.

This is the reason we are in this mess. Any dissenting opinion is immediately snuffed out with the call of 'bigot!'. This is why there has never been a proper debate about this topic and instead we have allowed social media to legislate new policy.

[charliegolf]

The B word is valid in the trans discussion. Because trans people are a minority. Like gay people, lesbians, black people and brown people. No one outside those groups (I'll wager) thinks, "Oh I really wish I could be a (insert minority), I think I'd be happier there." Why? Because of the sh1t and corruption that will always come their way, often starting with their family. I'll also wager for some in those groups, the opposite is true. But they have no choice- it's not about lifestyle.

Members of minority groups- especially the visually different- suffer bigotry every day. The best bit for LGBT minority members, is getting free membership to the, 'Must be perverts and paedos club'.

For balance, I believe children should be believed and supported when they raise issues; should be allowed to experiment with gender style, but should not have medical intervention until of age. As a schoolie, I believe any disclosure should generally be reported to and discussed with the child's parents. The exception would be if I and other professionals felt it would put them at risk. Families are as nutty as the rest of the population, after all. Rant over.

CG

[Finningley Boy]

FB, I am sure you said the same about gays, and perhaps another groups.

Perhaps you should just thank them for their service, like everyone else serving?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-25/transgender-pilot-ayla-holdom-royal-wedding-prince-william/9691102

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11823617/Britains-openly-trans-Army-officer-says-ordered-shoot-came-out.html
Orac,

Every time another "progressive" change to the order of society and its institutions, is successfully imposed, the immediate defence to seal the situation is usually lines ;like "be thankful for their service" or some reference to facing the heat of battle, as if no one else ever did. That isn't in doubt, what is, is the very creed and image of the armed forces. I'm not going to open your links, because I've read it all and had it all shoved down my throat every time I, or anyone else voices concern about what is taken to be an irrelevance now. I can't change it, but don't expect me to embrace it, and I still maintain, it is bad news in the long run.

FB

[bobward]

I served as an ATC instructor for over 40 years. In the beginning, it was great. Towards the end of my time, say from 2010 onwards it became more and more embroiled in HSE, risk assessments and other stuff, such as having to give many weeks notice of holding any sort of outdoor activity. Whilst I agree that, when responsible for young people, we need to take adequate care of them, some of the stuff we had to do did not make sense to me. I can compare ATC requirements against the offshore industry where I worked in the day job. When we had to risk asses cadets making tea, I knew things were not sensible.

Sadly these days, application of common sense no longer applies in our culture. In my time I never had to deal with the sort of issues mentioned above, although we did have one cadet who was about to transition when I left five years ago. At that time there was, to my knowledge, no advice available from the head shed on how to handle this. The current generation of instructors have my unfailing respect and admiration for trying to look after the cadets in what is becoming, to me, a very strange world.

Good luck for the future ladies and gentlemen, and thanks for all you did, with, and for me in the past.

[HOVIS]

IMHO it is significant. I've had my kids coming back from school and questioning their gender. My daughter declared she was transexual because her teacher told her so. When I dug a little deeper she had no real understanding of what being transexual actually means and had completely misinterpreted what her teacher was saying. Exposing young people, who through immaturity lack the ability to properly comprehend what they are being taught, to complex gender theories is causing much more issues than it is solving.

As a society we are absolutely playing with fire over these gender concepts. We have no idea of the damage we are doing to our young people in this crazy experiment that appears to me to be about accommodating a very small minority of people. At my work we were told we had to append pronouns to our e-mails and I've yet to see anyone use a pronoun that isn't either he or her and every single person is identifying with their biological sex.

All this change has happened slowly and without our consent. Organisations and charities have been lobbying behind closed doors and coercing people into compliance with their ideological viewpoints. If you speak out now you are vilified, and even hounded on social media. There is no possibility of debate on this topic anymore. And it's very disappointing to see that the RAF has now also found themselves sucked into this nonsense.
You were doing so well with a reasonable debate until the last line showed your prejudice.
Shame.

[HOVIS]

Orac,

Every time another "progressive" change to the order of society and its institutions, is successfully imposed, the immediate defence to seal the situation is usually lines ;like "be thankful for their service" or some reference to facing the heat of battle, as if no one else ever did. That isn't in doubt, what is, is the very creed and image of the armed forces. I'm not going to open your links, because I've read it all and had it all shoved down my throat every time I, or anyone else voices concern about what is taken to be an irrelevance now. I can't change it, but don't expect me to embrace it, and I still maintain, it is bad news in the long run.

FB
What exactly does "the order of society" mean?
This is not the 19th century, we are not in Downton Abbey.

[chevvron]

I served as an ATC instructor for over 40 years. In the beginning, it was great. Towards the end of my time, say from 2010 onwards it became more and more embroiled in HSE, risk assessments and other stuff, such as having to give many weeks notice of holding any sort of outdoor activity. Whilst I agree that, when responsible for young people, we need to take adequate care of them, some of the stuff we had to do did not make sense to me. I can compare ATC requirements against the offshore industry where I worked in the day job. When we had to risk asses cadets making tea, I knew things were not sensible.

Sadly these days, application of common sense no longer applies in our culture. In my time I never had to deal with the sort of issues mentioned above, although we did have one cadet who was about to transition when I left five years ago. At that time there was, to my knowledge, no advice available from the head shed on how to handle this. The current generation of instructors have my unfailing respect and admiration for trying to look after the cadets in what is becoming, to me, a very strange world.

Good luck for the future ladies and gentlemen, and thanks for all you did, with, and for me in the past.
I joined as a cadet at age 13 in 1962; served as a qualified Glider Pilot then from CWO to CI; commisioned, was put in charge of a squadron for 8 years then later became Wing Gliding Liaison Officer. I too would have done over 40 years but my wing OC, having been 'passed over' himself for an award which I got, made a 'case' for me getting my commision terminated so I left after 36 years.
If all the above discussion is true, which I'm still not sure about, I feel for those who are left.

[SASless]

Lots of use of the word "Bigot" in this thread.....and allegations of "bigotry".

That is a pretty mean thing to do shy of direct evidence to base such address upon.

From Merriam's

Bigot

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance


Blacks Law Dictionary


Condescending, superior and intolerant mentality with regard to others, frequently used in conjunction with racism.

Why can folks not simply disagree without being disagreeable especially when discussing/debating complex issues?

Is not "intolerance" itself a symptom of bigotry?

Anthropology is defined as "The scientific study of the origin, the behavior, and the physical, social, and cultural development of humans.".

Recent thought in that field of study has begun to differentiate between Gender and Gender Identity which seems a shift from the traditional determination of Gender by bone structure.

How. much you want to bet there are disagreements for and against that shift amongst anthropologists?

[m0nkfish]

You were doing so well with a reasonable debate until the last line showed your prejudice.
Shame.

Hard to imagine how anyone can actually be prejudice to all this as we all get it shoved down our necks at every opportunity. From enforced wearing of pronoun badges, mandatory LGBQT+/E&D training, almost monthly 'awareness days', letters from school explaining how they have updated their training to reflect new government policy (currently now being reviewed!) that states LGBQT must be 'fully integrated', constant virtue signalling news and media articles from organisations trying to climb to the top of some ridiculous moral high ground.

I don't have an issue with gender dysphoria, but I do have an issue with the prominence it is being given in our society now versus the number of people who actually have it. From my experience with my children it seems that it's now become something of a trend to decide that one is transexual. The fact that this stuff is now confusing our children should be alarm bells for everyone. Sturgeon resigned because she had made such a horlicks of gender identity, if the Scottish government can't even figure out what a man and a woman is then we should at least start to open this up for a proper discussion. That means not branding opinions that contradict your own as 'bigoted' or 'prejudice'.

[cheekychimp]

Hard to imagine how anyone can actually be prejudice to all this as we all get it shoved down our necks at every opportunity. From enforced wearing of pronoun badges, mandatory LGBQT+/E&D training, almost monthly 'awareness days', letters from school explaining how they have updated their training to reflect new government policy (currently now being reviewed!) that states LGBQT must be 'fully integrated', constant virtue signalling news and media articles from organisations trying to climb to the top of some ridiculous moral high ground.

I don't have an issue with gender dysphoria, but I do have an issue with the prominence it is being given in our society now versus the number of people who actually have it. From my experience with my children it seems that it's now become something of a trend to decide that one is transexual. The fact that this stuff is now confusing our children should be alarm bells for everyone. Sturgeon resigned because she had made such a horlicks of gender identity, if the Scottish government can't even figure out what a man and a woman is then we should at least start to open this up for a proper discussion. That means not branding opinions that contradict your own as 'bigoted' or 'prejudice'.
You can't say things like that without being branded 'Nazi' 'Fascist' 'dinosaur' 'gammon' etc.

[Finningley Boy]

What exactly does "the order of society" mean?
This is not the 19th century, we are not in Downton Abbey.
I'd have the Game Keeper escort you to the main gates if we were!:p

FB

[langleybaston]

What exactly does "the order of society" mean?
This is not the 19th century, we are not in Downton Abbey.

Downton Abbey was set in 20th century.

But when did facts bother wokeism?

[ExAscoteer2]

But when did facts bother wokeism?

So demanding that people be treated equally and not discriminated against because they are in a minority group is wokeist?

PATHETIC!

[langleybaston]

So demanding that people be treated equally and not discriminated against because they are in a minority group is wokeist?

PATHETIC!

My dear fellow Prpuner,

I believe, in a non-shouty way, that minorities should be respected, but majorities in a democracy should have their will upheld.

However, the bottom line is that every one of us is a minority, with our personal Venn diagram.

If you want a debate rather than an argument I suggest that you should cut out the capital letters, exclamation marks and abuse, it sits better on this forum.

[Ninthace]

My dear fellow Prpuner,

I believe, in a non-shouty way, that minorities should be respected, but majorities in a democracy should have their will upheld.

However, the bottom line is that every one of us is a minority, with our personal Venn diagram.

If you want a debate rather than an argument I suggest that you should cut out the capital letters, exclamation marks and abuse, it sits better on this forum.
And if the will of the majority is not to respect the minority but rather supress or oppress them, where do you stand then?

[Senior Pilot]

Having morphed into an almost inevitable back and forth hardly worthy of JetBlast, time to close this thread.