Working on public holidays

[BravoSierraLima]

Interesting court case! If it becomes law, what is your fee to work a public holiday if you don't have to? I think I'll need a double RDO payment or to have my operator (not QF mainline or VA) renegotiate the existing EBA.

Public holidays 2023: Bosses must ask employees if they want to work public holidays | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site (https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/bosses-must-ask-employees-if-they-want-to-work-public-holidays-after-landmark-ruling/news-story/1dacffe3a3fa7dedf4dae050acd5ca6c)

[Icarus2001]

If this stands unchallenged it will have huge implications across many industries.

[walesregent]

If this stands unchallenged it will have huge implications across many industries.

maybe, but not for airlines. They’ll just have to apply the extra cash they bring in through their dynamic pricing model to pay staff enough to want to work on public holidays.

[Seaeagle109]

Pretty sure that pilots get 6 weeks annual leave, instead of the society standard 4 weeks, because we work on public holidays without extra compensation. The amount of public holidays roughly equates to 10 working days, hence the 2 extra weeks.

So, if you want to decline to work on public holidays, I guess that employers will want to reduce annual leave back to 4 weeks.

[PoppaJo]

Pretty sure that pilots get 6 weeks annual leave, instead of the society standard 4 weeks, because we work on public holidays without extra compensation. The amount of public holidays roughly equates to 10 working days, hence the 2 extra weeks.

So, if you want to decline to work on public holidays, I guess that employers will want to reduce annual leave back to 4 weeks.

Potentially an allowance for working a PH might come into play. My other half gets an allowance (roughly $400 extra) if her day on by chance falls on a PH, and she chooses to work it (up to her), otherwise they just get the day off and standard pay.

The model around staff volunteering to work PH’s is probably beyond many rostering departments to organise. Generally these periods are the busiest for airlines and travel, and generally the times staff just don’t want to work either. I am sure many will sacrifice 2 weeks leave to have those peak period off, I sure would, wouldn’t mind the Easter long weekend off, yet I am stuck working Friday to Monday.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Karma will be a bitch for airlines if this is applied as it appears it will be. Years of the war on staff cannot go unpunished. Colleagues I have spoken to already have suggested only large sums of money will get them to work on a public holiday.

Someone mentioned something about the 6 weeks A/L being compensation for public holidays in a prior post. I don’t believe this has been expressly stated in any EBA, rather suggested by management. It’s a null and void argument.

[RealSatoshi]

Pretty sure that pilots get 6 weeks annual leave, instead of the society standard 4 weeks, because we work on public holidays without extra compensation. The amount of public holidays roughly equates to 10 working days, hence the 2 extra weeks.

It is TIME we Professionals STOP taking it on the chin :eek:

For context, here is some insights into the BHP proposed EA for Production Staff - 15 March 2023 (https://www.bhp.com/-/media/documents/business/2023/230216_oseaemployeefaqs_production.pdf)

Working on Public Holidays
OS works 24/7 rosters. To meet our plans and commitments to our customers, we need rostered shifts to continue over Christmas Day and Boxing Day.

Where an Employee is rostered on over Christmas Day and Boxing Day, they will be required to work unless they have leave approved.

To enable Employees who are rostered on to take leave, the proposed EA outlines that OS may call for volunteers to work Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Where an Employee who is not rostered on volunteers and performs work on these days, they will be paid overtime rates.

Separate to the EA, Employees who are rostered on and who work will continue to be eligible for a $700 per shift payment in accordance with the Working on 24-26 December Ex-Gratia Payment Policy.

Employees who receive overtime will not be eligible for the $700 policy payment.

Annual Leave Entitlement
The proposed EA will not change your existing annual leave entitlements or accruals. Under the proposed EA, Employees are entitled to 5 or 6 weeks’ annual leave per year (depending on the type of roster they work).

For full time employees who are entitled to 6 weeks’ annual leave per year:

employees working a 2/1 roster will typically be entitled to be absent from work on annual leave for 28 shifts per year (or 2 full swings), as they would typically work 28 shifts in a 6-week roster cycle; and
employees working a 7/7 roster will typically be entitled to be absent from work on annual leave for 21 shifts per year (or 3 full swings), as they would typically work will 21 shifts in a 6-week roster cycle.

[Lapon]

Pretty sure that pilots get 6 weeks annual leave, instead of the society standard 4 weeks, because we work on public holidays without extra compensation. The amount of public holidays roughly equates to 10 working days, hence the 2 extra weeks.

So, if you want to decline to work on public holidays, I guess that employers will want to reduce annual leave back to 4 weeks.

That may (or may not have been) the orginal intent, but if an existing eba merely stimulates a six week annual leave entitlement it will be a moot point.

At a minimum I'd expect to see penalty rates applied. If I recall correctly this holiday requirement cannot simply be contracted out of either.

[dr dre]

Karma will be a bitch for airlines if this is applied as it appears it will be. Years of the war on staff cannot go unpunished. Colleagues I have spoken to already have suggested only large sums of money will get them to work on a public holiday.


If you look at all the others professions who work public holidays, police, nurses, hospital staff, emergency services, mining, retail, aged care etc there are a lot of people needed on public holidays who would also like to get the day off. I can’t imagine there’s too many workers in other industries willing to volunteer to give up every holiday to help out their boss.

At risk of society shutting down the government will have to step in and ensure that employers have the right to force employees in those industries to work, but as quoted in this AFR article (https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/bosses-must-ask-staff-before-rostering-to-work-public-holidays-court-20230329-p5cw5q):

An employer could still require the employee to work on a public holiday if the employee’s refusal was unreasonable given the nature of the work, reasonable employer expectations, the type of employment and the level of pay.

All an employer has to do is say “you agreed to work in aviation therefore it’s expected you work holidays” and your right to opt out is over. However they may be forced to institute a mandatory penalty payment for working on a holiday.

I don’t think this ruling will ensure pilots and airline employees a guaranteed Christmas off every year. But you may get a bit more money in the bank account for working on the day.

[walesregent]

If you look at all the others professions who work public holidays, police, nurses, hospital staff, emergency services, mining, retail, aged care etc there are a lot of people needed on public holidays who would also like to get the day off. I can’t imagine there’s too many workers in other industries willing to volunteer to give up every holiday to help out their boss.

At risk of society shutting down the government will have to step in and ensure that employers have the right to force employees in those industries to work, but as quoted in this AFR article (https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/bosses-must-ask-staff-before-rostering-to-work-public-holidays-court-20230329-p5cw5q):

An employer could still require the employee to work on a public holiday if the employee’s refusal was unreasonable given the nature of the work, reasonable employer expectations, the type of employment and the level of pay.

All an employer has to do is say “you agreed to work in aviation therefore it’s expected you work holidays” and your right to opt out is over. However they may be forced to institute a mandatory penalty payment for working on a holiday.

I don’t think this ruling will ensure pilots and airline employees a guaranteed Christmas off every year. But you may get a bit more money in the bank account for working on the day.

interesting, though, that the test case involved miners, who work in a famously 24/7 365 industry and it’s not like anyone could reasonably claim they are underpaid. Closing down medical and emergency services would lead to anarchy pretty abruptly, but you can close air travel down for 18 months or more and society will keep trudging along, so calling it essential is a bit of a stretch. They might find themselves in a situation where they have to demonstrate that their service is more essential than mining- no mean feat in Australia.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

….but you can close air travel down for 18 months or more and society will keep trudging along,

Or ground your own airline following an industrially driven hissy fit.

[swh]

Pretty sure that pilots get 6 weeks annual leave, instead of the society standard 4 weeks, because we work on public holidays without extra compensation. The amount of public holidays roughly equates to 10 working days, hence the 2 extra weeks.

So, if you want to decline to work on public holidays, I guess that employers will want to reduce annual leave back to 4 weeks.

normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave

that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)

i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.

It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer

[Mr_App]

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)



Pilot's only get 42 days off per year?

Anyway, so you drop from 6 weeks to 4 weeks, but gain 10-12 days in PH Paid days off. Unlucky if they fall on your RDO however. You also get the choice to have those peak, holiday, and often non attractive work days, OFF. Sounds good.

What is stopping them from dropping a clause in the EBA seen across some other industries......."if we can't get volunteers, then we can force you to work etc."

They would struggle to even maintain 10% of a daily schedule going off volunteers. Might as well not operate on the 25/12. But hey, don't all the folks in HQ all over the place get the day off?

[B043]

normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave

that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)

i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.

It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer


and I sincerely hope you’re no where near an aircraft. A real concern! :ugh:

[Eclan]

normal worker has 52 weekends plus 12 public holidays (or more depending on the state) plus 4 weeks annual leave

that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)

i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.

Please tell me you were on the whisky when you wrote that.

[cLeArIcE]

This is certainly interesting to ponder. Not just for us, but for many industries. To me the biggest benefit is choice. Some people want Christmas, Easter off etc. I personally don't. I am more than happy to work public holidays etc. I hate going away in peak periods and having to put up with people's annoying offspring and crowd's etc. Choice is always a good thing.
But this could have such a huge quality of life benefit for so many people that I can't see the government letting anything happen from it. Healthcare providers would burn the country down before they give their nurse's anything.
But if COVID has taught me something, there is zero care and loyalty in this game anymore. So if you don't give me my wife's birthday off or the kids footy grand final off I sure as hell won't turning up.
​​​​

[swh]

Please tell me you were on the whisky when you wrote that.

Nope, I was just getting to bed.

About to go out an do my 29th flight for the month tonight, just a cheeky 14 hrs sector, back on Monday.

[noclue]

You can add some days off to the 42 days leave.

Typical 28 day roster has 8-10 days off depending on employer, making 108-130 extra days off.

Making 150-172 days off. 👍

If you happen to use your sick leave (2 +wks) you only work 50% of the year any way 🤷‍♂️🤫

[KRUSTY 34]

interesting, though, that the test case involved miners, who work in a famously 24/7 365 industry and it’s not like anyone could reasonably claim they are underpaid. Closing down medical and emergency services would lead to anarchy pretty abruptly, but you can close air travel down for 18 months or more and society will keep trudging along, so calling it essential is a bit of a stretch. They might find themselves in a situation where they have to demonstrate that their service is more essential than mining- no mean feat in Australia.

Yup, they threw us out on the street and closed the entire industry virtually overnight!

Won't stop them from trying on the "essential" caveat though. When the time comes, this should be the first thing they need to be reminded of.

[cloudsurfng]

Yup, they threw us out on the street and closed the entire industry virtually overnight!

Won't stop them from trying on the "essential" caveat though. When the time comes, this should be the first thing they need to be reminded of.


and they will respond with the government ‘minimum domestic network’ and ‘IFAM’ etc etc.

To which the unions should respond ‘well you only needed x pilots for that’

it’s simple. You can have any day of the year off you want. (Except Xmas day…..) we don’t need a PH mandate. The reality is this will only benefit the hours pigs who live for money. The only other benefit I see is if there is some kind of penalty attached and you are assigned work on a PH, you’ll get something extra.

[soseg]

and they will respond with the government ‘minimum domestic network’ and ‘IFAM’ etc etc.

To which the unions should respond ‘well you only needed x pilots for that’

it’s simple. You can have any day of the year off you want. (Except Xmas day…..) we don’t need a PH mandate. The reality is this will only benefit the hours pigs who live for money. The only other benefit I see is if there is some kind of penalty attached and you are assigned work on a PH, you’ll get something extra.

Why the hate towards hour pigs?

[Buswinker]

normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave

that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)

i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.

It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer

so many entirely missing your point
it’s not so much that the pilot ends up working 323 days of the year
it’s that those days off are received in a haphazard manner, often at short notice and without any consultation

the normal worker knows they have every weekend off, every public holiday etc, IN ADDITION TO annual leave and the rest of it
therefore can plan- whatever they want to do. Footy on a Saturday, church on Sunday, childcare, date night, whatever. And months in advance

to do any of that in aviation you’d have to book leave, and you’d run out of it very quickly- after around…42 days in fact!!

[volare_737]

normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave

that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)

i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.

It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer


I might be wrong but most pilots still get their 8 days of in 28 which brings the yearly days off to 146 !!! Or am I missing something ?????

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Also pretty sure that if you have already counted 52 weekends, then 4 weeks annual leave is only another 20 days. ie 104+12+20=136 days

Also didn't know that pilots not on their 6 weeks annual leave worked the remaining 46 weeks of the year without another single day off....wow you guys have it tough!

[megan]

Wouldn't want swh doing the fuel calcs. :p

[MaxHelixAngle]

Bottom line; it needs to be a ‘request’ to work on a public holiday. Not a requirement.

Employee cannot ‘unreasonably’ refuse. Both the nature of the request and the employee’s circumstances will be relevant.

The request may also open the door to a dialogue or negotiation.

Will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

MHA 👍


Edit: here’s a link to the list of factors that will be considered (s 114(4)). I’d suggest ‘personal circumstances including family responsibilities’ and the absence of penalty rates would be the two factors to play in favour of crew. The nature of the job, contract and expectations would be powerfully against.

http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/fwa2009114/s114.html

[golfbananajam]

normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave

that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)

i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.

It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer

Are you really telling me that pilots (or should it be aircrew?) work 7 days a week, every week, unless they take holiday? So no down time between shifts?

[FightDeck]

Pilots and other workers get 42 days a year leave because they work shift work, back of the clock, and work weekends. Holidays are a moot point.
Irregardless this is a landmark ruling. Qantas are worried. So much so that the chief pilot’s had to put his name to a letter from legal asking you to work during holiday periods. Hazard a guess other airlines and industries also.
As others have suggested airlines are going to have to start remunerating people properly for working holidays, providing confirmed travel for family etc.
The chief pilot still gets 42 days a year leave. Perhaps he can put his hand up.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Karma will be a bitch for airlines if this is applied as it appears it will be. Years of the war on staff cannot go unpunished. Colleagues I have spoken to already have suggested only large sums of money will get them to work on a public holiday.

Someone mentioned something about the 6 weeks A/L being compensation for public holidays in a prior post. I don’t believe this has been expressly stated in any EBA, rather suggested by management. It’s a null and void argument.
It's explicitly stated in the Air Pilots Award 2020:29. Public holidays

29.1 For the avoidance of doubt:


(a) the minimum wage provided for in this award;and

(b) the entitlement to annual leave in clause 23 (https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000046#P751_73366)—Annual leave (https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000046#P751_73366),

take into account an employee’s entitlement to public holidays in the NES (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awards/resources/nes.pdf) and include compensation for all public holidays provided for in the NES (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awards/resources/nes.pdf).

[Horatio Leafblower]

normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave

that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)

pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)

i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.

It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer

I think you need lessons in reading the award, Comrade.15.7 Periods of duty


The weekly duty period will normally consist of 5 days’ duty and 2 consecutive days free from all duty. By mutual agreement between the employee and the employer one day free of duty can be deferred. Where a day has been deferred a substitute day will be granted and taken within 28 days unless further deferred by mutual agreement in writing. For the purpose of rotating the roster one 2 day period may be reduced to single days in each 28 day cycle.




15.8 Periods free of duty


(a) When an employee completes the maximum permissible flying or duty hours prescribed in CAO 48 the employer will not require the employee to perform any further duties whatsoever for the remainder of the relevant period.


(b) The employer will ensure that an employee is rostered at least one weekend off in each 28 day cycle,where practical.

ANNUAL LEAVE

23. Annual leave

23.1 Annual leave is provided for in the NES (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awards/resources/nes.pdf). Clause 23 (https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000046#P751_73366) provides occupational specific detail. (The NES gives every full time employee 4 weeks annual leave)

23.4 Entitlement to annual leave

An employee is entitled to annual leave such that the employee’s total entitlement to annual leave pursuant to the NES (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awards/resources/nes.pdf) and this award for each year of employment is a total of 42 days annual leave,inclusive of Saturdays,Sundays and public holidays on full salary for each completed year of service,with a right to take 2 rostered days free of duty immediately before or after or one day immediately before and one day immediately after such leave period.NOTE: Where an employee is receiving over-award payments such that the employee’s base rate of pay is higher than the rate specified under this award,the employee is entitled to receive the higher rate while on a period of paid annual leave (see sections 16 and 90 of the Act).23.5 Annual leave loading


(a) Clause 23.5 (https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000046#P762_74737) does not apply to employees engaged in aerial application operations.

(b) In addition to the entitlement to payment under clause 23.4 (https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000046#P759_73965),an employee when proceeding on annual leave will be paid in respect of the first 28 of 42 days annual leave (inclusive of Saturdays,Sundays and public holidays) falling due each year either:

(i) an annual leave loading equivalent to 17.5% of the salary inclusive of allowances and additions to salary prescribed by this award;or


(ii) the employee’s actual salary or wage inclusive of allowances and additions to salary or wage, whichever amount is greater.

[Fonz121]

So what’s this mean exactly (mainly the second quote)? From the ABC article:

"It actually impacts across every sector because it's actually the National Employment Standards," he said.

"If you have an enterprise agreement or a contract in place, that cannot override an NES provision of the act.

"So whether it's retail, mining, construction — it's a massive decision.

[MaxHelixAngle]

So what’s this mean exactly (mainly the second quote)? From the ABC article
That companies can’t require their employees to work public holidays, only request.

That’s very simplistic though, because an employee can’t unreasonably refuse to work.

From the judgment:
​​​​​​​45 An employer never has complete certainty of operation regarding what it would like in the future to demand of its employees and whether it can do so lawfully. An employer is only ever able to demand of its employees what is lawful and reasonable regardless of what a roster or contract say. Indeed, even if a contract contained a term which, in some circumstances, might be lawful and reasonable, does not mean by the intersection of a plethora of statutory obligations, that nonetheless the direction is not lawful in theparticular circumstances. It may be, as OS suggested, administratively burdensome for a mine to have to make a request rather than be able to require employees to work on public holidays. However, the legislation intends to confront this very mischief: To ensure that employers do not so require employees to work on public holidays absent the request being reasonable or the employee being able to refuse to work in reasonable circumstances.

[aussieflyboy]

Am I correct in assuming that if you are on a period of Annual or Long Service Leave during a public holiday that this is not considered a day of leave and thus your leave balance should not reduce?

And this (NES) has applied for some time so I would expect a lot of people will be getting a significant amount of Leave paid back to them.

[MaxHelixAngle]

Am I correct in assuming that if you are on a period of Annual or Long Service Leave during a public holiday that this is not considered a day of leave and thus your leave balance should not reduce?

And this (NES) has applied for some time so I would expect a lot of people will be getting a significant amount of Leave paid back to them.

No, unfortunately.

[MaxHelixAngle]

This judgment won’t change as much as some people are assuming. Police, ambulance, doctors … and pilots, are still going to be working public holidays. The only thing this changes is that the company can only request that you work, and there is a narrow scope to refuse.

[Fonz121]

The sooner that narrow scope gets defined, the better.

[Jack D. Ripper]

I think it’s fair that there is recognition for working a PH. For too long the senior have been ripping off the junior, picking the eyes out of the rostering system, whilst the junior just take it.

If you are suggesting you should be able to refuse to work. I hope you’re ok with the Ambo’s, train drivers, shop employees etc. etc. also refusing.

Will make for pretty quiet holidays

[Ladloy]

I think it’s fair that there is recognition for working a PH. For too long the senior have been ripping off the junior, picking the eyes out of the rostering system, whilst the junior just take it.

If you are suggesting you should be able to refuse to work. I hope you’re ok with the Ambo’s, train drivers, shop employees etc. etc. also refusing.

Will make for pretty quiet holidays
Ambos receive more annual leave as pilots and are paid overtime on PH's.
Nurses on full time receive 6 weeks annual leave and 250% pay for PH's.

[Eclan]

I think it’s fair that there is recognition for working a PH. For too long the senior have been ripping off the junior, picking the eyes out of the rostering system, whilst the junior just take it.
Spoken like a true socialist. When you're in the last years before retirement and being rostered for back-of-clock crap you'd rather not be doing while the new guy is doing some nice sectors, remember those words.

[dr dre]

Spoken like a true socialist. When you're in the last years before retirement and being rostered for back-of-clock crap you'd rather not be doing while the new guy is doing some nice sectors, remember those words.

Allocation of rosters is actually moving towards more equitable and fair systems, not too many existing companies/fleets are operating off purely seniority based rostering anymore.

[Lookleft]

Don't forget that this judgement will be appealed by the airlines and we all know that they will throw buckets of money at a legal case if the original judgement will affect their bottom line. The sacked rampies won a legal victory but at the end of the day they have not been reinstated. The letter that was sent out contained a clear message that you can ask to be taken off the roster but that your request is unlikely to be approved.

[Iron Bar]

Airlines can’t appeal it as such, they’re not party to the proceedings. There would have to be some sort of ‘new’ proceeding or application to the Court. Going to be interesting.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Don't forget that this judgement will be appealed by the airlines and we all know that they will throw buckets of money at a legal case if the original judgement will affect their bottom line. The sacked rampies won a legal victory but at the end of the day they have not been reinstated. The letter that was sent out contained a clear message that you can ask to be taken off the roster but that your request is unlikely to be approved.

And judges just love to have to overturn their own decisions. The rea$on$ would have to be extremely compelling.

[Australopithecus]

I just rejected my unpaid three day reserve over the weekend because:unpaid. Also…essential service? There are plenty of airlines, and plenty of precedent for ignoring the alleged essential nature of the service when it suits management due to lock out employees for the flimsiest of reasons.

[Fonz121]

I just rejected my unpaid three day reserve over the weekend because:unpaid. Also…essential service? There are plenty of airlines, and plenty of precedent for ignoring the alleged essential nature of the service when it suits management due to lock out employees for the flimsiest of reasons.

Ha good one. Report back with the result.

[Eclan]

Allocation of rosters is actually moving towards more equitable and fair systems, not too many existing companies/fleets are operating off purely seniority based rostering anymore.
Your declaration of what is "more equitable and fair" is a great example of The Donald's infamous but accurately identified "fake news" style of commentary because the concept of what is more equitable and fair in this context is a subjective one, although I guess you knew that and made your statement anyway.

Some people seem to think it was fair and equitable that those who did their time at the bottom of the list get to enjoy their time at the top and that system seemed to work well for a long time.

I suppose a pilot (especially a Gen Me pilot) joining today would be very happy to see the flying spread evenly but for many people when it comes to rosters, as with many things in life, with age comes conservatism. I know a guy who was #1 on the list and when he retired after 50 years of flying his last flight was aguably the ****tiest in the schedule and he told me it was one of the greatest disappointments of his career. I think he would disagree with this new system.

[DirectAnywhere]

Well, if that’s one of his greatest disappointments in a 50 year career he had it pretty Fkn good.

Cry me a river.

[dr dre]

Some people seem to think it was fair and equitable that those who did their time at the bottom of the list get to enjoy their time at the top and that system seemed to work well for a long time.

Except promotion and progression has never been constant and linear. Therefore those who would be stuck at the bottom for a long time in a downturn would be taking an unequal share of the burden.

I suppose a pilot (especially a Gen Me pilot) joining today would be very happy to see the flying spread evenly but for many people when it comes to rosters, as with many things in life, with age comes conservatism. I know a guy who was #1 on the list and when he retired after 50 years of flying his last flight was aguably the ****tiest in the schedule and he told me it was one of the greatest disappointments of his career. I think he would disagree with this new system.

This may sound callous but who cares? He should be grateful for the opportunity to enjoy a long career. From some points of view it isn’t the pilots of today who are “Gen Me”, trust me older generations have no problem making their primary goal the enrich of themselves at everyone else’s expense.

There is momentum to move to more equitable rostering systems in places which don’t have it, but you won’t find any push to return to a pure seniority based rostering system where it doesn’t exist. It’s dying out for a reason, it’s unfair and creates unnecessary pain and burden for some for extended periods of time.

[Ladloy]

Gen Me, as opposed to FYIGM Generation. Wouldn't it make sense to pay holiday rates as a compromise?

[KRUSTY 34]

Why the hate towards hour pigs?

Exactly. They free up what little spare time and shorter days for the rest of us.

At least that's how we would like it to work?

[cloudsurfng]

Exactly. They free up what little spare time and shorter days for the rest of us.

At least that's how we would like it to work?

because some were still pigs when their colleagues were stood down. Could have not volunteered and made the company stand more pilots up.

because when the time comes where we take PIA, or whatever, the pigs will still be the pigs

because the pigs are often the loudest whingers, yet bend over backwards to help the company out.

that’s why.

[soseg]

Exactly. They free up what little spare time and shorter days for the rest of us.

At least that's how we would like it to work?

Yeah, that’s one way to look at it. Let them pig out. If they have the time to make bank let them while those who don’t care get more time at home with family. As long as it’s not at that pathetic industry undercutting $360/day Network rate.

[BravoSierraLima]

So, did anyone who didn't already have leave ask for the public holidays off? Were you successful or if you were denied, what is your company's justification?