Passengers dies Jet2 flight from Antalya to Glasgow

[pbwhi0]

Just curious about the following passenger statement in this article - 44 Year old passenger dies on Jet2 flight Antalya to Glasgow (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/passenger-dies-on-a-flight-forcing-pilot-to-make-emergency-landing/news-story/50f1ae16073a3e2ceb24043d9bf01e0c):

“We had to land with all our cabin lights on and it was quite scary because you know that is quite dangerous.”

Does anyone know why it is so dangerous to land a 737 (800) with the cabin lights on?

Thanks, Paul

[hans brinker]

Just curious about the following passenger statement in this article - 44 Year old passenger dies on Jet2 flight Antalya to Glasgow (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/passenger-dies-on-a-flight-forcing-pilot-to-make-emergency-landing/news-story/50f1ae16073a3e2ceb24043d9bf01e0c):

“We had to land with all our cabin lights on and it was quite scary because you know that is quite dangerous.”

Does anyone know why it is so dangerous to land a 737 (800) with the cabin lights on?

Thanks, Paul

Because if you crash at night and have to evacuate your eyes won't be adjusted to the dark.


So, in other words, no, not dangerous really. Bigger question is why would you need the lights on when there is a dead body in the cabin????

[irpond]

Deleted.

[DaveReidUK]

Bigger question is why would you need the lights on when there is a dead body in the cabin????

Presumably because, as the report states, cabin crew were still performing CPR until after the aircraft had landed.

[pbwhi0]

I seem to remember reading that the cabin should have the same lighting as the exterior so that eyes do not need time to get accustomed to a sudden difference in case of an emergency exit.
Yep, understand that but in the vast majority of cases the aircraft lands normally. In this case, I assume the pilots declared a medical emergency and received priorty landing. But there was no emergency with the aircraft itself and presumably it pulled into the gate as normal.

I believe reporting is going downhill these days and maybe the reporter could have asked the passenger why they believed it was so dangerous to land with the cabin lights on.

[pattern_is_full]

I believe reporting is going downhill these days and maybe the reporter could have asked the passenger why they believed it was so dangerous to land with the cabin lights on.

Eyewitness told reporter they were scared by the experience. Reporter quoted the eyewitness, presumably accurately.

The story was about a health emergency that happened to be on board an aircraft. Not really a time or place for two non-experts to get into an extended debate about cabin lighting, unless it was a causal factor in the emergency.

To go off on a tangent: to start talking about something that is only slightly or indirectly related to the original subject.

[hans brinker]

Presumably because, as the report states, cabin crew were still performing CPR until after the aircraft had landed.

Yeah, oops. Didn't read the whole article. From what I remember, 30 years ago, we were instructed to get them in the galley if possible, and leave the aisle clear. And they took our copy of the FA manual away from us, so I don't know what our procedure is....
Two things TIL: read the article, read the manual.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Slightly off tangent but still related, I flew DL EDI-JFK-EDI recently on a b767. At no point on either leg did CC ask for window blinds to be open during t/o or landing and indeed there were many window blinds closed at all these points on these flights. Is this a legal or safety requirement? in europe they are very stringent about enforcing this but the DL crew were ambivalent to the fact.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Yep, understand that but in the vast majority of cases the aircraft lands normally. In this case, I assume the pilots declared a medical emergency and received priorty landing. But there was no emergency with the aircraft itself and presumably it pulled into the gate as normal.

I believe reporting is going downhill these days and maybe the reporter could have asked the passenger why they believed it was so dangerous to land with the cabin lights on.

Although the aircraft was not in immediate danger, the landing phase is still one of the most critical phases of flight. There are many instances of a/c leaving the runway or running off the end during a normal landing. In this instance the pilots would have been under pressure to get the aircraft on the ground asap for patient to get proper medical attention, I have been on two flights where a pax has had a cardiac event, those pilots dropped those planes like a stone to get on the ground asap.

[VHOED191006]

Although the aircraft was not in immediate danger, the landing phase is still one of the most critical phases of flight. There are many instances of a/c leaving the runway or running off the end during a normal landing. In this instance the pilots would have been under pressure to get the aircraft on the ground asap for patient to get proper medical attention, I have been on two flights where a pax has had a cardiac event, those pilots dropped those planes like a stone to get on the ground asap.
A few weeks ago, a Jetstar 787 flying right over the top of Alice Springs had some medical emergency. They then rapidly descended straight away. FR24 picked up at one point that they have a descent rate of -7000fpm.

[SpamCanDriver]

Although the aircraft was not in immediate danger, the landing phase is still one of the most critical phases of flight. There are many instances of a/c leaving the runway or running off the end during a normal landing. In this instance the pilots would have been under pressure to get the aircraft on the ground asap for patient to get proper medical attention, I have been on two flights where a pax has had a cardiac event, those pilots dropped those planes like a stone to get on the ground asap.

Aircraft leaving the rwy during a normal landing is a rare event.
The Captain had to decide between having the cabin lights on for landing, enabling the crew to perform CPR correctly. Or dimming the lights incase of a very low probability event.

The crew made the right call

[macdo]

Quite a few really pathetic posts on this thread. The only things that need to be said are sympathies to the deceased and their families and sympathies to the crew who were trying to save the person. I've been on a flight where crew made heroic attempts to resus a passenger while we got on the ground asap. It was all to no avail and it was horrible for the crew and a number of passengers who witnessed the drama. Discussing the rights and wrongs of cabin lights seems very disrespectful.

[DaveReidUK]

Quite a few really pathetic posts on this thread. The only things that need to be said are sympathies to the deceased and their families and sympathies to the crew who were trying to save the person. I've been on a flight where crew made heroic attempts to resus a passenger while we got on the ground asap. It was all to no avail and it was horrible for the crew and a number of passengers who witnessed the drama. Discussing the rights and wrongs of cabin lights seems very disrespectful.

Each to his/her own. I can't see anything in this threat that's remotely disrespectful towards the unfortunate deceased.

[Capt Fathom]

A few weeks ago, a Jetstar 787 flying right over the top of Alice Springs had some medical emergency. They then rapidly descended straight away. FR24 picked up at one point that they have a descent rate of -7000fpm.

Where do people get this rubbish from?

[albatross]

Where do people get this rubbish from?
Is the aircraft incapable of -7000 FPM?
Also data from Flight tracking sites particularly rates of climb and descent is not very reliable and must be taken with a large grain of salt. Some “Expert” folks take it as gospel however.

As for cabin lights….common sense should prevail. If you need them on for the purpose of trying to save life…keep them on. If you as a passenger feel endangered by this…close your eyes or put on your sleep mask to preserve your night vision.

I am taken aback that people were “traumatized” by seeing CPR being conducted and someone passing away even with the best of efforts. What kind of bubble do they live in? They would be less than useful when a relative has a heart attack at a family dinner…they would probably just live stream it on their cell phone while forgetting to call 911.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

One of the flights I was on a pax had a cardiac event. It was British Midland. The patient was lying in row one with head propped up against the cabin wall. The plane was diverted as a medic in board patient needed immediate treatment. CC insisted patient was raised and sat in seat with seat belt on. Medic said raising patient would put pressure on heart but CC insisted.

[NYCPK]

On some airlines, like United, SOP in an unplanned emergency is for the CC to turn the lights up to full so the crew can either prepare the cabin for emergency landing or attend to the medical situation. I have no idea what Jet2's policy is. Since this was a medical emergency I guess either the CC forgot to dim the lights for landing especially if they were still using the Defibrilator or for some reason doing CPR.

[Asturias56]

Because if you crash at night and have to evacuate your eyes won't be adjusted to the dark.
So, in other words, no, not dangerous really. Bigger question is why would you need the lights on when there is a dead body in the cabin????

I asked that question of BA many years ago and had a personal reply from a very senior person in the flying arm who agreed with HB's response

[golfbananajam]

Presumably because, as the report states, cabin crew were still performing CPR until after the aircraft had landed.

Having performed CPR more than once, why would you need to leave the lights on if you were already performing CPR. Also, do planes not carry a defib these days?

[DaveReidUK]

Having performed CPR more than once, why would you need to leave the lights on if you were already performing CPR. Also, do planes not carry a defib these days?

Doubtless alternative explanations are available - feel free to suggest one.

[albatross]

Having performed CPR more than once, why would you need to leave the lights on if you were already performing CPR. Also, do planes not carry a defib these days?

Yes, you could perhaps, but why would you.
You and the team are going to have to change persons doing the cpr unless you are in extremely good shape.
Adjust O2 masks, loosen clothing, do lung inflations mouth to mouth, check for pulse, perhaps fit a defib. and read the instructions thereupon ect. ect.

All this in the dark in order to dim the lights for landing?

[TheFiddler]

Having performed CPR more than once, why would you need to leave the lights on if you were already performing CPR. Also, do planes not carry a defib these days?

All Jet2.com aircraft carry AED's. However in many cases they will not find a solution and so will not shock. Also, AED's are most effective used in conjunction with CPR - CPR pushes blood (and therefore oxygen) around the body, AED's shock the heart to try and get it restarted to push the blood itself. In my simple understanding of the terms.

TF.

[Bksmithca]

The cockpit doors are closed, so there's little chance the light will affect the pilots. The chances of the passengers needing night vision is minimal, non existant at best. So can someone explain to me the logic of dimming the cabin lights.

[Coochycool]

The cockpit doors are closed, so there's little chance the light will affect the pilots. The chances of the passengers needing night vision is minimal, non existant at best. So can someone explain to me the logic of dimming the cabin lights.
In order that ones eyes are already somewhat adjusted should you need to quickly evac out into the dark.

[wiggy]

The cockpit doors are closed, so there's little chance the light will affect the pilots. The chances of the passengers needing night vision is minimal, non existant at best. So can someone explain to me the logic of dimming the cabin lights.

"The chances of the passengers needing night vision is minimal": True but it's definitely not non-existent,

As an example if the BA38 accident had happened at night the evac would have been into darkness, hence the procedure. There will be plenty of other examples of evacuations post runway excursions, some of them night evacuations.

[Jaf4fa]

My sympathies to the family of the passenger, but also to the crew who had to deal with this incident. It is a very upsetting situation for them and who gives a $hit about lights when a persons life is on the line😳

[WHBM]

Landing with dimmed lights only came along in the (1980s ?), for the reasons described above. I can assure you nobody was scared about the lights being on prior to this. In fact quite a number at first used to question the procedure.

[Chu Chu]

I'd venture to guess that the more immediate concern is evacuating in the dark, if the cabin lights fail in an accident. That seem so go along with keeping the window shades open (at least for daylight landings).

Still, if your biggest worry after everything gets quiet is how your eyes are adjusted . . .

[MechEngr]

All Jet2.com aircraft carry AED's. However in many cases they will not find a solution and so will not shock. Also, AED's are most effective used in conjunction with CPR - CPR pushes blood (and therefore oxygen) around the body, AED's shock the heart to try and get it restarted to push the blood itself. In my simple understanding of the terms.

TF.

This is close. The AED stops the heart - this is useful when the heart muscles are contracting out of their normal rhythm. The shock causes the entire internal pace-maker system of the heart to be overwhelmed and to allow it to re-establish the normal synchronization or normal rate. This works because the there is a necessary ion exchange that allows the nerves to function and that exchange was operational in the randomness of fibrillation or tachycardia.

If the heart has stopped on its own that ion differential no longer exists and shocks don't re-establish it. The AED probably doesn't make things worse - except if using it delays CPR. I think the modern ones mostly detect when the heart is not beating and won't apply the shock.

Of interest: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/electrical-cardioversion Mostly that article is for people who aren't dying from the symptoms and are able to even schedule the procedure.

The above isn't medical guidance. Contact a licensed physician with any detailed questions.

[Bbtengineer]

One of the flights I was on a pax had a cardiac event. It was British Midland. The patient was lying in row one with head propped up against the cabin wall. The plane was diverted as a medic in board patient needed immediate treatment. CC insisted patient was raised and sat in seat with seat belt on. Medic said raising patient would put pressure on heart but CC insisted.

This sounds bloody ridiculous.

As you painted it they took the generic instruction manual over situationally specific medical advice.

Why didn’t the medic just hold their ground and tell the cabin crew to back off?

“I have been invited to assist this individual and now I am telling you what they require. You aren’t qualified to dispute it.”

I can only hope the commander would agree to take the advice.

[megan]

CC insisted patient was raised and sat in seat with seat belt onDon't believe the story for one minute.

[WideScreen]

This is close. The AED stops the heart - this is useful when the heart muscles are contracting out of their normal rhythm. The shock causes the entire internal pace-maker system of the heart to be overwhelmed and to allow it to re-establish the normal synchronization or normal rate. This works because the there is a necessary ion exchange that allows the nerves to function and that exchange was operational in the randomness of fibrillation or tachycardia.

If the heart has stopped on its own that ion differential no longer exists and shocks don't re-establish it. The AED probably doesn't make things worse - except if using it delays CPR. I think the modern ones mostly detect when the heart is not beating and won't apply the shock.

Of interest: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/electrical-cardioversion Mostly that article is for people who aren't dying from the symptoms and are able to even schedule the procedure.

The above isn't medical guidance. Contact a licensed physician with any detailed questions.
While technically correct, your writing is pretty dangerous.

Your way of writing suggests a lay person should be able to conclude what even medical trained people don't take for granted.

Lay people should NEVER be discouraged to apply (CPR and) AED. The AED will find out itself, whether shocks should be applied or not, it's fail-safe. As such, lay people should always apply the (CPR and) AED, when the person is not breathing autonomously and (usually) no heartbeat can be found.

Even, when the AED decides to skip the shock, CPR should be continued. Lay people should NEVER give up on the CPR, unless a highly trained medical person takes over / has taken over control and/or decides differently.

It takes a suitable trained medic to conclude for a full and unrecoverable cardiac arrest. And even then, medical staff often continues with CPR and other life-saving treatment(s).

Since CPR is pretty exhausting for the ones applying the help, having at least 2 people alternating is (nearly) mandatory (of course, by lack of, etc, do with 1 person). Splitting the chest compressions and the artificial breathing over 2 people is also a good load spreading. Chest compressions are the number 1 focus, artificial breathing is only the number 2 importance.

Only once the person restarts autonomous breathing, CPR can be stopped.

[Radgirl]

I was reluctant to post given this thread refers to an actual person, but just to clarify in simple terms:

A heart attack causes collapse for one of two reasons:

1 the muscles of the heart all contract independently so there is no pump action. This is ventricular fibrillation

2 the heart stops electrically. This is asystole

The treatment in both cases is external cardiac compressions because the heart is not pumping

The AED looks for the rythmn on a built in ECG or EKG. If it detects ventricular fibrillation it will recommend a shock which stops the fibrillation and hopefully normal electrical activity restarts. If it detects asystole it does nothing as a shock has no effect.

So the important thing is to apply the AED pads ASAP as most collapses from a heart attack are initially ventricular fibrillation but in all cases start external caerdiac compressions until there is a spontaneous pulse