SWA 737 Cuba to Ft Lauderdale smoke, engine out, slides deployed

[ethicalconundrum]

https://nypost.com/2023/03/06/southwest-airlines-flight-to-florida-fills-with-smoke-returns-to-cuba/

Did a quick search didn't see this posted. The O2 masks did not deploy, looks like a pretty big CF. Landed and evac safely back in Cuba. I didn't know we had direct flights from Cuba to US.

[Seat4A]

https://twitter.com/OnDisasters/status/1632731406030852096?cxt=HHwWgMC-4YWk0KgtAAAA

[JPJP]

https://nypost.com/2023/03/06/southwest-airlines-flight-to-florida-fills-with-smoke-returns-to-cuba/

Did a quick search didn't see this posted. The O2 masks did not deploy, looks like a pretty big CF. Landed and evac safely back in Cuba. I didn't know we had direct flights from Cuba to US.


How to demonstrate you’re not a pilot without saying it. Why would the 02 masks deploy for smoke in the cabin ?

US airlines fly to Cuba. And have done so for years. The location in your profile makes absolute sense now.

[ethicalconundrum]

How to demonstrate you’re not a pilot without saying it. Why would the 02 masks deploy for smoke in the cabin ?

US airlines fly to Cuba. And have done so for years. The location in your profile makes absolute sense now.

Really? One who flies private planes is 'not a pilot'. Glad I was able to catch your entitled response in time. And, being from Texas is a problem too? Oozing with entitlement, and elitism. Wouldn't life saving O2 be useful when people are gagging/choking on smoke? Hmmmmm, I guess the pointy end people really do consider us 'meat sacks in back'. :p Eff all of them. They don't need air! (Oh - in case you didn't know, there are duplicate guarded switches for manual deployment of the O2 on ALL airliners built since 1998, due to another pointy headed pilot mistake)

Edit; looky what I found!
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1130/o2_on_cf0f0c8b91fdc5b1cf027d20c75fdd738ef04d33.jpg

[visibility3miles]

BBC news version:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64842270

"Nobody could breathe," Marc Antonio, a passenger on the flight told NBC's Early TODAY show. "It was burning so much in the lungs."

Could be a reason to deploy oxygen.

​​​​​​​Nobody was hurt.

[Capt Fathom]

(Oh - in case you didn't know, there are duplicate guarded switches for manual deployment of the O2 on ALL airliners built since 1998)

Could you point out in the photo you supplied where the ‘duplicate’ switches are?
The Manual switch is the backup for the ‘Automatic Deployment’ function in the event of loss of cabin pressure.

Oxygen masks are NOT deployed for fire/smoke events. The masks do not seal and allow ambient air to circulate within.

[WhatShortage]

Really? One who flies private planes is 'not a pilot'. Glad I was able to catch your entitled response in time. And, being from Texas is a problem too? Oozing with entitlement, and elitism. Wouldn't life saving O2 be useful when people are gagging/choking on smoke? Hmmmmm, I guess the pointy end people really do consider us 'meat sacks in back'. :p Eff all of them. They don't need air! (Oh - in case you didn't know, there are duplicate guarded switches for manual deployment of the O2 on ALL airliners built since 1998, due to another pointy headed pilot mistake)

Edit; looky what I found!
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1130/o2_on_cf0f0c8b91fdc5b1cf027d20c75fdd738ef04d33.jpg
This has been one of those epic laughable moments Where you try to explain yourself like an expert but you have absolutely 0 knowledge about the topic.

In case of smoke cabin mask are USELESS are the smoke will be mixed within the mask. You'll need positive pressure, which is not the case, to be able to breath without smoke. You're welcome. Btw: no double switch, it's a single guarded one in case of malfunction. You're welcome x2.

Aside from this useless explanation, it's Cuba... Do you expect people following what they're being told? Thanks God they left the aircraft...

​

[43Inches]

Pumping more O2 into the cabin when there is a fire is not desirable either.

[MechEngr]

<sarcasm>Sure - cut off oxygen from the fire - that's the best approach. </sarcasm>

Any displacement of toxic/poisonous fumes from the lungs of people is probably a good thing. The oxygen flow from the generators is so low compared to the volume of air in the cabin that not dying of lung damage is worth that change.

The fire is out in the engine coming in the normal ventilation supply and unaffected by cabin oxygen levels and that supply should have been shut off ASAP.

[43Inches]

Except that your QRH will probably say to cut off or not deploy pax O2 supply in case of smoke in the cabin, it's at the start of the list for my type. That is to restrict any excess O2 that the fire could use to intensify, any fire within the cabin is a real emergency as there is limited ability to fight it, smoke and fumes builds up rapidly, there is usually an emergency ventilation procedure you can use once the fire is extinguished. There have been cases where a smoldering fire has raged when the exits were opened as it introduced more O2 from outside air. Remember the cabin crew only have a couple of BCFs or such for less than 1 minute of fire fighting, you don't want any excess fuel or O2 added no matter how small the amount. Engine failure/fire should be limited smoke, I've had fumes in the cabin from various engine related problems from electrical to oil vapor, it's nasty and shutting off the source or bleed will stop it pretty fast.

FAs have some portable oxygen for those that are struggling.

Probably good to remember that a few lung issues is better than the fire spreading and the aircraft being lost. Once on the ground Evac ASAP if it's that bad.

I think some form of smoke hood/mask should be carried on airliners similar to life jackets. Even if it just provides some filter and no O2 it's better than nothing.

[fdr]

Ethical, what the responding post was really trying to say is, that:

OEM NNCL's and airline SOP's do not direct the use of the oxygen system for smoke events, as their design provides for a "Continuous Flow Passenger Oxygen Mask Assembly" to be dropped down in the event of loss of cabin pressure. The design takes a limited amount of O2 from either a regulated supply air bottle, and meters a limited amount into a bladder that then provides O2 to the user on inhalation, and is designed to have exhalation to atmosphere. The limited flow rate requires the addition of additional air from atmosphere to be able to be drawn in to give sufficient volume of air to meet a high demand, such as when the pax suddenly see a jungle of masks coming out of the overhead, feel the aircraft commence a fairly rapid descent and other wise get a chance to recall what the flight attendants were describing in that interminable period from getting on the plane and getting airborne. The fact that they mix air source means they are of limited to no value in smoke conditions.
That the FAA and other NAA's spent considerable time assessing the use of PBE systems for smoke protection, and have generally concluded that they would not be particularly effective for airline use, for the in-flight smoke case, and would likely delay egress of an aircraft in the event of an ground evacuation. To this, I am less convinced, however the airlines also object to the cost, maintenance, and procedural issues related to PBE for the passengers. The cost is not a major factor, small flat pack charcoal activated items that are close to the form factor of a fat surgical mask, with a head cover, small vision area, and activated charcoal filtration and an expulsion valve were available for less than 5USD each, (I used to carry them in my bags 25 years ago for hotel and cabin use...) at present the latest versions are up around 30USD/ea, but take up more volume, and are good for up to 60 minutes purportedly, vs the 20 minutes from the flat pack ones that existed previously. Problem with smoke is, by the time people have reacted, it can be too late to avoid incapacitation to react... But, I carry my own...
As far as Texas goes, messing' with Texas is probably a thing of jest, y'all take the lone star seriously, and y'all got guns, lots of guns, big n' small, but mainly, lots of them.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/918x928/screen_shot_2023_03_07_at_9_49_29_am_200399b564f5ffcdc769473 810d0dc8cad8fc3f5.png

Activated carbon surgical, & N95 type masks are available, and they are cheap, they would however require additional repackaging and control to be provided. Would they work? They do remove CO and other toxic substances, and they also remove particulates. They would give a measure of protection in some cabin smoke conditions.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1650x1144/screen_shot_2023_03_07_at_3_09_22_pm_3777a40e75336b00f3a02bd 4ca39b9e00b065eaa.png
Soeroso NN, Intan TK, Ichwan M, Fadlurrahman MH, Ananda FR. Four-type of Masks and its Effectiveness Based on Reduced Level of Expiratory Carbon-monoxide. Med Arch. 2020 Oct;74(5):342-345.

[dingy737]

If it is known that the cabin smoke is coming from the engine bleed, is there any real concern that deploying the oxygen mask could make matters worse?

If you were knowledgeable of the system, is it possible to filter the ambient air inlet to the mask with light closing, or a napkin, to give your self a fighting chance by increasing the ratio of oxygen to smoke?

Just asking.

[ZFT]

Except that your QRH will probably say to cut off or not deploy pax O2 supply in case of smoke in the cabin, it's at the start of the list for my type. That is to restrict any excess O2 that the fire could use to intensify, any fire within the cabin is a real emergency as there is limited ability to fight it, smoke and fumes builds up rapidly, there is usually an emergency ventilation procedure you can use once the fire is extinguished. There have been cases where a smoldering fire has raged when the exits were opened as it introduced more O2 from outside air. Remember the cabin crew only have a couple of BCFs or such for less than 1 minute of fire fighting, you don't want any excess fuel or O2 added no matter how small the amount. Engine failure/fire should be limited smoke, I've had fumes in the cabin from various engine related problems from electrical to oil vapor, it's nasty and shutting off the source or bleed will stop it pretty fast.

FAs have some portable oxygen for those that are struggling.

Probably good to remember that a few lung issues is better than the fire spreading and the aircraft being lost. Once on the ground Evac ASAP if it's that bad.

I think some form of smoke hood/mask should be carried on airliners similar to life jackets. Even if it just provides some filter and no O2 it's better than nothing.

Not arguing but it is surprising this is still the case after what happened to that Varig 707 at Paris? albeit a long time ago.

[MechEngr]

Closing off the engine air bleed and opening the cabin bleed would drop the air pressure and evacuate the majority of the contaminated air allowing the air masks to drop and become the majority of the O2 supply to passengers while cutting the toxins.

There should be smoke detection in the ventilation system to automatically close the supply doors so smoke cannot make it to the cabin from the affected engine.

Varig Flight 820 - what a nightmare.

If the fire is held back by lack of oxygen then everyone is dead already. It will have moved to primarily carbon monoxide production along with heavy, choking soot.

[Capt Fathom]

Just follow the Checklists!

[xetroV]

One row of O2 masks was apparently deployed, as seen in the video from the NY Post link. Did the passengers open that mask container?

[visibility3miles]

I met an NTSB investigator who said they carried a trash bag with them on flights so they could grab a bag full of fresh air to breath and buy time if smoke or noxious fumes filled the cabin. Don’t know if they ever had to do so. Not sure how well it would work either, or maybe they developed cautious behavior due to their job.

They also said that pilots would often let them get a good look from the air as they were arriving to let them get a better understanding of the scene.

[FakePilot]

I met an NTSB investigator who said they carried a trash bag with them on flights so they could grab a bag full of fresh air to breath and buy time if smoke or noxious fumes filled the cabin. Don’t know if they ever had to do so. Not sure how well it would work either, or maybe they developed cautious behavior due to their job.

They also said that pilots would often let them get a good look from the air as they were arriving to let them get a better understanding of the scene.

Haven't any of you played with trash bags over your head as kids? You definitely can get a few minutes out of a trash bag. It can also help you escape a building fire if you're only way out is through smoke. But this only works if you have an exact plan.

[Euclideanplane]

Just curious how it works exactly. If you keep a large trash bag filled with air in the cabin, where do you store it? The CC are usually vehement to prevent storage in any of the aisles, where it would otherwise be most practical in terms of having enough space.

[Bksmithca]

Just curious how it works exactly. If you keep a large trash bag filled with air in the cabin, where do you store it? The CC are usually vehement to prevent storage in any of the aisles, where it would otherwise be most practical in terms of having enough space.You would pull the bag out when needed and fill it with cabin air before the cabin fills with smoke

[megan]

Southwest said in a statement that the Boeing suffered serious bird strike damage to an engine and the aircraft’s nose shortly after takeoff.

[ethicalconundrum]

This has been one of those epic laughable moments Where you try to explain yourself like an expert but you have absolutely 0 knowledge about the topic.

In case of smoke cabin mask are USELESS are the smoke will be mixed within the mask. You'll need positive pressure, which is not the case, to be able to breath without smoke. You're welcome. Btw: no double switch, it's a single guarded one in case of malfunction. You're welcome x2.

Aside from this useless explanation, it's Cuba... Do you expect people following what they're being told? Thanks God they left the aircraft...

​

Pumping more O2 into the cabin when there is a fire is not desirable either.

So I had to do some looking into this before responding. We have a bunch of advice, from people that should know, and it seems to boil down to two discrete and opposing POV. On one hand, we have the 'there will be no value because there is no pressure differential and the O2 masks are useless'. We have the other group which warn of pumping additional O2 to the air and smoke in the cabin. In some other cases we have a presumed 'fire' in the cabin. I also called my long time buddy retired from AA and asked him about it, and he gave me what he considers his op-ed. It basically came down to 'how much and for how long' was the smoke present? This seemed a bit evasive, so I asked him to read the article on the SWA plane. He said in this case, he would follow the QRH for smoke in the cabin. And, from that he could find no reference to deploying the O2 masks. Given it didn't exist in his Airbus book he would not have deployed them either.

I then took a primer on O2 generators and did find there was positive pressure in the O2 gen, regulator, and canula that provides O2 to the pax. It's not much, but there is slightly more pressure in all cases when the O2 is deployed. Which becomes the two-pronged issue of adding O2 to the potential for fire(not good, even if there was no fire) or giving the pax life-saving O2 while they are choking on the smoke filled air. Folks here can take a look at the various videos uploaded to media to check the amount of smoke and draw their own conclusions.

Will be interesting if there is any comment at all in the NTSB report, if one is even developed concerning the smoke issue and what was done. I'm guessing it will be mostly glossed over. Several have commented on the delaying of de-planing had the O2 canisters have been deployed. I don't know if that kind of speculation is warranted either way. Myself, once I saw the door open and the slide deployed, I would haul my ass out of there after one big gulp. It also makes my TX hide happy to know we get full irritation out of the cognoscenti and elitists that want to be so inclusive, except the hate directed our way. Yeehaa. 🤣

[MechEngr]

The 02 generation will be insignificant to the volume of air in the cabin. Anything to cut the choking soot and toxic gases are a plus.

Most every time a deplaning delay is mentioned, even including retrieving carry-ons the bulk of the passengers are being delayed by the limited rate the escape slides can be used. I've not seen one instance of anyone grabbing for a bag with the gap of even one person ahead of them in line.

What will cause problems is if, during that delay at the chute, the people at the back die solely because they have no breathable air when that air is available, just not deployed. I'd rather grab a mask, take a breath, move forward, grab another mask and another breath rather than choke to death. I guarantee in the case of a smoky fire the flight attendants and pilots will be grabbing those portable units.

So, why not deploy them? Calculated risk. In the case of engine smoke you can take out a few dead passengers and not have to replace those expensive O2 generators. Apparently airlines have fought efforts to carry smoke hoods but do carry those crappy air vests as if the scattered fragments of an airplane will allow them to be used. Some say it's advertising that's the issue. No one wants to contemplate being on fire.

What I want to know is if the ventilation system can rapidly isolate the engine bleed air from the cabin so no smoke gets in at all.

[megan]

Carry your own HEEDS bottle, sold for underwater and smoke enviroments.

https://heed3.com/models/models.html

[43Inches]

The 02 generation will be insignificant to the volume of air in the cabin. Anything to cut the choking soot and toxic gases are a plus.


No amount of added O2 is insignificant in an aircraft fire. You add O2 the fire burns more, it's not an amount and suddenly it flares up, every molecule you add to an already smoldering fire will increase the combustion relative to it therefore adding fumes and more heat, which adds more fire. The flashover events have proved that the level of O2 can drop to a point where the fire is subdued enough to get on the ground and passengers generally survive, however when the exits open you want to be out in under a minute before the new fresh O2 reaches the fire site which can have almost explosive results. There may be limited use of O2 in relieving smoke issues after the fire is out, or say bleeds sealed off, however the main focus should be removing the smoke from the cabin. One rule applies overall, LAND ASAP... better to be on the ground watching it burn than flying around doing anything more than landing while your arse burns off.

What I want to know is if the ventilation system can rapidly isolate the engine bleed air from the cabin so no smoke gets in at all.

Pull the fire handle all bleeds close, or if not directly a engine fire the crew will have to find out which bleed is causing the smoke, which may be straight forward or require a methodical approach led by the QRH. Therefore some smoke will enter the cabin, until the bleeds are closed, not sure there is a feasible way to have smoke detectors in bleeds to auto close them, and what threshold. That would then have issues if you fly through smoke, or even just water vapor. High humidity or other gases and particulate can trip smoke detectors, let alone sitting in blasting hot bleed air as well.

Carry your own HEEDS bottle, sold for underwater and smoke enviroments.

Great idea until you try to get them through security, and they probably class as DGs, even the small canisters on the LJs constitute DGs.

[ZFT]

Closing off the engine air bleed and opening the cabin bleed would drop the air pressure and evacuate the majority of the contaminated air allowing the air masks to drop and become the majority of the O2 supply to passengers while cutting the toxins.

There should be smoke detection in the ventilation system to automatically close the supply doors so smoke cannot make it to the cabin from the affected engine.

Varig Flight 820 - what a nightmare.

If the fire is held back by lack of oxygen then everyone is dead already. It will have moved to primarily carbon monoxide production along with heavy, choking soot.

Yet , if I recall all the cabin crew survived being on supplementary O2.

[theFirstDave]

Carry your own HEEDS bottle, sold for underwater and smoke enviroments.


https://heed3.com/models/travel.html

"Your Heed must be depressurized and the regulator removed from the cylinder to allow for visual inspection."

[hunbet]

This is what would work and it should be able to pass through security.

​​​​​​https://elmridgeprotection.com/ievac-smoke-hood-fire-escape-mask/

[43Inches]

Looks like a leak in a cockpit O2 system led to an out of control fire on board a TU 204 last Jan. Even with rapid airport fire service response on the ground the aircraft was burnt out. Seems relevant to what we were talking about on this thread.

Just reinforces that with a fire on board the main focus should be land and evac ASAP.

[BFSGrad]

N8792Q flew from HAV to HOU on 3/25. Scheduled for return to revenue service on 3/31.