Rules about pilots leaving the flight deck?

[hugh flung_dung]

A short while ago, on a couple of Easyjet flights, the FO left the flight deck and their place was not taken by a member of cabin crew. In one case the FO was chatting for more than 30 minutes. On disembarking it seemed that there were only two crew on the flight deck so, presumably, only one person was on the important side of the door for an extended period. The response to an enquiry to the CAA was that EJ SOPs permitted there to be only one flight crew member and that there was no requirement for a CC member to occupy the empty seat when one of the pilots was in the cabin.
I've been away from aviation for a while now, but I found this surprising. I had thought that, after German Wings and another incident that I can't immediately recall, it was a requirement for two people to be on the flight deck at all times. Is this is not the case then how do they propose to deal with incapacitation or "strange" behaviour?

HFD

[Dct_Mopas]

The CAA are correct, the crews were following procedure. Two crew aren’t required at all times.

All UK airlines (that I know of) no longer follow the two crew rule which was brought in as a reaction following Germanwings. However it brings its own risks and with different standards of medical oversight in the UK the least risk option has been subsequently deemed to leave the one pilot on his/ her own.

[Consol]

....... that there was no requirement for a CC member to occupy the empty seat when one of the pilots was in the cabin.
HFD

And even if there was a requirement for CC it is definitely not for them to occupy the empty seat.

Did you make the inquiry to the CAA?

Are you a journalist?

[RARA9]

It’s silly really , I know of 2 UK airlines that still do this procedure.
1. It basically says they don’t trust you on your own
2. Lots of the cabin crew put in the flight deck are very junior and have only just passed a security clearance (if at all….)
3. God forbid it happened again ! But do you really think a young 18 year old would stop a 200lb extremist.

a chilling thought but interesting

[pilotmike]

It’s silly really ,...

1. It basically says they don’t trust you on your own
….
a chilling thought but interesting
Or that they care enough about the risk of incapacitation to do something to mitgate some of the risk. Is that really so silly?

[Dct_Mopas]

Or that they care enough about the risk of incapacitation to do something to mitgate some of the risk. Is that really so silly?

The risks of having a newly qualified/ inexperienced cabin crew alone in the flight deck with one pilot (potential security issue/ stood behind the pilot so distraction if talking/ etc) needs to be balanced with the risk of incapacitation. Each alternative procedure has a level of risk, in this instance most airlines risk analysis leans towards one pilot being the better option.

[vilas]

In today's two man crew aircraft(Tomorrow's aircraft may be different) pilot should not be outside cockpit longer than absolutely necessary. There's is case long time ago in B737 Kosovo to London FL370 where Capt was in his seat talking to a passenger and copilot was the PF preparing for descent and sudden decompression took place. Copilot put on the mask and informed captain who asked the passenger to return to her seat and tried to put his mask on but his specs got dislodged, by the time he located them he passed out. The copilot called for SFA who had already noted passenger masks dropping. She realising something serious had happened she removed her masks and charged into cockpit without portable mask. In the cockpit copilot frantically indicated her put mask on the captain but before she could do that she herself passed out. They only recovered below 20000ft. If this was to happen on the EJ flight the FO will pass out. EMER DES is a serious emergency requires two pilots in the seat.
However keeping cabin crew cannot prevent German wing repeat because he cannot prevent suicidal pilot from putting aircraft on the back. In JAL B737 copilot accidentally used rudder trim instead of door unlock and aircraft went on the back.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Pilots on a 2 crew aircraft should not be chatting for 30 minutes in the cabin. Do your job.

[Chesty Morgan]

3. God forbid it happened again ! But do you really think a young 18 year old would stop a 200lb extremist.

Maybe not but they could let the 200lb non extremist back in...

[Nantucket Sleighride]

Maybe not but they could let the 200lb non extremist back in...

what if the recently recruited junior cabin crew, is in fact the bad actor?

[hugh flung_dung]

Thanks for the replies.
I'm aware of the relevant risks (medical incapacitation, decompression, mental disturbance, and CC members having less security checks) but believed that the risk-benefit-likelihood debate had resulted in a decision that the lowest overall risk was achieved with two people in front of the locked door at all times. Easyjet's answer to the enquiry was that CC were having to spend too much time away from their core duties. As SLF I would prefer that a CC member was able to unlock the door if needed, rather than trying to sell me things that I don't want.

Consol: Yes "empty seat" was a poor choice of words. No, I'm not a journalist (I'm a retired FE).

HFD

[BraceBrace]

Pilots on a 2 crew aircraft should not be chatting for 30 minutes in the cabin. Do your job.

It's a crew-job. 30 minutes is probably an arbitrary number that on forums needs to be translated as "too long in the mind of the observer" as he felt the need to go up on the internet and question a pilot forum about it.

We are no robots. Social interactions are healthy and necessary. Yet some people still find it normal a pilot has to stay on the flightdeck for 6 hours to prevent... wait what? suicide? We should try to impose this on people in offices. Don't leave for more than 30 minutes, don't dare to talk to someone longer than 15 minutes when venturing of the door. Newspapers would be full of it...

Be happy this happens. Be happy we get along and talk to other people... it's healthy. It's natural. For some reason people still find it acceptable a pilot has to stay up front in his seat for 4-8 hours, doomed to talk by only looking left or right and having to listen to a code before he allows somebody in on the flightdeck?

Also, passengers are advised to get up and stretch their legs for health reasons... no wait, "people flying commercially" are advised to get up and stretch their legs. And that means passengers & crew.

[anxiao]

Rt Hon Jim, you have it in one. A pilot's job is on the flight deck, not chatting up the crew. Absence from the flight deck should be kept to an absolute minimum in 2 crew operations, to reduce risk.

I still believe in a CC being on the flight deck on a two crew aircraft when one crew takes a physiological break. The CC assist is not there to fight a murder suicide, they are there to communicate to the rest of the crew that the single pilot is no longer functioning, for whatever reason.

Airlines have opposed pilot's unions on this, and won for purely financial reasons. Until the next incapacitation/murder-suicide, when they will have to do a couple of years penance in safety mode and bring the CC back.

Sometimes I despair of this industry...

Added as Brace brace got in ahead of me.

<For some reason people still find it acceptable a pilot has to stay up front in his seat for 4-8 hours, doomed to talk by only looking left or right and having to listen to a code before he allows somebody in on the flightdeck?>

Yes you do. That is your job, day or night. If you need to get lower limb blood flow, exercise behind your seat. Social interactions are for after work. If you are bored with it, get a different job. Act like a professional and maybe the travelling public will think you are one.

[hugh flung_dung]

BraceBrace:
"more than 30 minutes" was accurate, not a figure of speech.
I agree that pilots should not be thought of as "robots", but I suggest that part of the job is dealing with emergencies and that this is better done with both of them on the right side of the door.

HFD

[BraceBrace]

exercise behind your seat. Social interactions are for after work.

I fly a 737. You'll be electrocuted, crash and die if you try that.

Also, I will tell my copilot we are not allowed to have social interactions. Some might like that. Strange enough, those are also the ones I'd rather not leave behind on their own on the flightdeck.

[BraceBrace]

BraceBrace:
"more than 30 minutes" was accurate, not a figure of speech.
I agree that pilots should not be thought of as "robots", but I suggest that part of the job is dealing with emergencies and that this is better done with both of them on the right side of the door.

HFD

I appreciate the reply, but in general the guys/girls going out for a walk in the back usually are ready for emergencies. That does not mean there are exceptions, yes some take very a "liberal" approach.

Mind you, I have worked for a company that has requested to put on oxygen masks when the second pilot is out on a walk. It can get pretty strange up front...

[M.Mouse]

If this was to happen on the EJ flight the FO will pass out.

Why? He would just need to grab a spare mask.

EMER DES is a serious emergency requires two pilots in the seat.

The procedure for a rapid descent is not exactly onerous, unpleasant maybe, but not onerous. The priority is to don the oxygen mask which deals with the imminent danger, after that the procedure is quite simple. Heck, the A350 can do it automatically!

[sonicbum]

As already said, absence from the flight deck shall be kept to the minimum required time mandated by physiological needs. Anything else is simply unprofessional.
I am also a supporter of having a cabin crew in the flight deck while the other pilot is out for two reasons mainly: 1) incapacitation. Some authorities do not require the emergency door code to be tested at all. The day you need it, it should work but what if it does not? Having a cabin crew in the flight triggering an alarm and opening the door could be vital.
2) limiting the visits to the loo and to the loo only. I also had FOs (and probably FOs had their captains-don’t want to start an argument here) chilling in the forward galley and leaving me for an extended period of time by myself in the FD, worst part of this is it has happened on long haul 2 men ops crew flights at night. With cabin crew in the FD, who’ll need to go back to their duties after a reasonable amount of time the other pilot will have to come back before the purser gets pissed off.
My 2c.

[B-757]

.. Meanwhile the Bad Guys are reading all this with interest..Not smart postings on a public website..

Fly safe,
B-757

[FUMR]

I am very surprised and alarmed to learn that apparently UK airlines no longer require two on the FD at all times (I'm of course including CC as one of the two in the case of a bathroom break). How quickly we forget. Let's not forget that there have been suspected suicides since Germanwings. Suicide in general has been on the increase since 2021, and a large majority are men.

[canyonblue737]

Did you speak to the crew after the flight or just go straight to the CAA? :-(

[hugh flung_dung]

canyonblue737:: how do you do that in these days of locked doors?
An initial enquiry to Easyjet didn't produce an answer.

HFD

[vilas]

Why? He would just need to grab a spare mask.



The procedure for a rapid descent is not exactly onerous, unpleasant maybe, but not onerous. The priority is to don the oxygen mask which deals with the imminent danger, after that the procedure is quite simple. Heck, the A350 can do it automatically!
I gave an example of two pilots sitting in front messing it up. You didn't seem to have read it. Everything everytime doesn't go as per the book. It's not simulator. Yes! A350 does it on it's own because it's designed not because Pilots like to stay away from cockpit. Anyway the industry is trying to find out if one crew can stay not even at the back but may be at home itself. Your comments will definitely help.

[Rozy1]

Doors aren’t locked after the flight. And the requirement for a cc member have nothing to do with germanwings type scenarios.

[Chesty Morgan]

what if the recently recruited junior cabin crew, is in fact the bad actor?
What if what if what if...

[back to Boeing]

What if what if what if...
this entire thread is what if what if what if.

The airlines will have made a risk assessment (one of hundreds if not thousands they’re required to do to be allowed to operate) and have decided what is best for their operation. Some deem it less of a risk to have 2 people in the flight deck at all times. Others have deemed it less of a risk to not require that.

[CaptainSouth]

My 2 cents worth as a 34 year Long Haul pilot…what would ANY non qualified person be able to do on a flight deck?
Certainly would be unable to transmit on a radio to let out a mayday, let alone tune to correct frequency….I spend hours flying around Deep South of the world CPDLC only. Tell me a Flight attendant could work out how to do that.
Fly the aeroplane? Again, where I am, no tower getting a pilot out of bed to tell you how to select LNAV, ALT HOLD, HDG SEL
Stop me or recover once I have done something bad to aeroplane?
And who was the GermanWings pilot..as one example? Previously he was…..a flight attendant.
Limit time off flight deck due being a professional adult pilot. Aircraft was designed for 2 crew ops. All other stuff is making rules for the optics, not practical nor adding to safety.

[Radgirl]

My 2 cents

It looks very unprofessional for a pilot to be chatting to CC or drinking or eating in flight. If you care what your customer thinks you wouldnt do it

If you want to socialise why not open the FD door and stand by the exit to speak to disembarking passengers. Might improve image and get happy punters

The need to exercise is a red herring. Pilots do not not seem to have a raised thromboembolic risk - reason unclear.

[Sawdust]

My 2 cents

It looks very unprofessional for a pilot to be chatting to CC or drinking or eating in flight. If you care what your customer thinks you wouldnt do it

If you want to socialise why not open the FD door and stand by the exit to speak to disembarking passengers. Might improve image and get happy punters

The need to exercise is a red herring. Pilots do not not seem to have a raised thromboembolic risk - reason unclear.

Ah yes, the passengers must surely wonder why I've popped out into the galley to make a cup of tea and have a snack. Eating and drinking infront of passengers is very unprofessional, got it. While 30 mins is a bit excessive I see no problem in popping out the flight deck for 5/10 mins... let alone eating/drinking..

[PoppaJo]

My 2 cents

It looks very unprofessional for a pilot to be chatting to CC or drinking or eating in flight. If you care what your customer thinks you wouldnt do it

If you want to socialise why not open the FD door and stand by the exit to speak to disembarking passengers. Might improve image and get happy punters

The need to exercise is a red herring. Pilots do not not seem to have a raised thromboembolic risk - reason unclear.
They might not always be socialising, who knows what they talk about? I was the other day standing in the forward galley with the curtain drawn, the CC wanted me to review some docs on the iPad and asked for my view. I was drinking coffee at the same time, hope that all sits well with you.

On another note, can I ask what is the American policy these days when it comes to one leaving for the loo etc?

[islandguy]

There is (was) one purpose of the observer (usually an FA) when a pilot steps out of the flight deck. This really applies to any airline.

In the event of an abnormality requiring the vacant pilot to return, their one and only job is to ensure the flight deck door opens.

That's It. An insurance policy against a locked door.

[pilotmike]

The risks of having a newly qualified/ inexperienced cabin crew alone in the flight deck with one pilot (potential security issue/ stood behind the pilot so distraction if talking/ etc) needs to be balanced with the risk of incapacitation. Each alternative procedure has a level of risk, in this instance most airlines risk analysis leans towards one pilot being the better option.
It seems you completely missed my point, which was to counter the comment made by 'RARA9':
It’s silly really ,...
1. It basically says they don’t trust you on your own
...

[wiggy]

My 2 cents

It looks very unprofessional for a pilot to be chatting to CC or drinking or eating in flight. If you care what your customer thinks you wouldnt do it

.

Frankly - tough- sometimes there are no other options.

The sort of policy you seem to be seeking would make life kind of tough if you are operating augmented crew on an aircraft with no or very limited crew rest facilities so any required rest period has to taken in the cabin..

[Atlantic Explorer]

Frankly - tough- sometimes there are no other options.

The sort of policy you seem to be seeking would make life kind of tough if you are operating augmented crew on an aircraft with no or very limited crew rest facilities so any required rest period has to taken in the cabin..

I take your point re augmented crew but we’re talking Easyjet here with 2 crew which is a slightly different kettle of fish.

[BraceBrace]

It looks very unprofessional for a pilot to be chatting to CC or drinking or eating in flight. If you care what your customer thinks you wouldnt do it

If you want to socialise why not open the FD door and stand by the exit to speak to disembarking passengers. Might improve image and get happy punters

The need to exercise is a red herring. Pilots do not not seem to have a raised thromboembolic risk - reason unclear.

There is nothing unprofessional about drinking a coffee in the galley. In any cooperation, face to face social interactions are the valuable time to have people aside in an more informal way, create interactions, who knows, even "dislodge" certain things that might have been created before due to "formal" interactions. It is a social requirement to create trust. Sometimes the "leader" needs to leave his office and step into the "zone" of others. "My door is open" phrases don't work for many people if there are problems, because they will stay in their "zone". Which is the exact reason why I distrust any person who prefers to stay up front, door closed, and calls it "professional". A first officer is "second-in-command". He has to be allowed to go out there and interact. It's eyes and ears of what might possibly "stir" in the back. If there is nothing, fine. If there is something, you are proactive.

No you don't need excercise, you need to get up and interact with people, the act is fysically AND mentally healthy. It still surprises me to see how the world of aviation still thinks they are a world on their own from a human perspective. For years aviation was "founded" on a military background where people should follow strict hierarchic procedures. The Asians still like it, we complain so much about it, yet we defend it in our little world ourselves? Not on my aircraft. I've only got one message: you ain't fighting a war on the flightdeck, we're not part of an army. That's not the reason why the concept of CRM was created.

[sudden twang]

I saw a captain leave the flight deck go to the loo then chat to the crew in the forward galley.
as he was chatting 2 women with a baby used the loo to change a nappy. They seemed to have a changing table which blocked access to the flight deck door for about 15mins. The captain couldn’t return to the flight deck and just waited.

[enzino]

Where I work, we always have 2 people in the flight deck. If one pilot needs to use the toilet one cabin attendant is required to be present in the flight deck but they are not allowed to seat anywhere but on the jumpseat and they are not allowed to touch any controls.

[sonicbum]

I see no problem in popping out the flight deck for 5/10 mins...
Your regulator does however.
Who should we listen to? 🤔

[Splat]

If I had my way I’d block that forward toilet off and make it for crew use only. Curtain off the galley.

Don’t think Joe Public would be impressed though.

[the_stranger]

While not taking 30 minutes, I do take some time to stretch my legs and have a chat with another human being, be it crew or passenger. It's a relief on a 8 hours two man flight to have some minutes of walking and seeing other people face to face instead of turned on a chair.

While it might increase the chance of something happening in case of my colleague becoming incapacitated, it in turn increases my overall level of alertness and happiness. I deem the net result as positive.
Regarding a suicidal pilot, I trust my colleagues and if indeed someone wants to do something, they really don't need to be alone to crash a plane. A cabincrew member wouldn't help a bit and close to the ground there are plenty of ways even with 3 pilots in the cockpit.

Keep a common sense about it and don't overreact or panic over the slightest thing.

[dr dre]

While not taking 30 minutes, I do take some time to stretch my legs and have a chat with another human being, be it crew or passenger. It's a relief on a 8 hours two man flight to have some minutes of walking and seeing other people face to face instead of turned on a chair.


The best bit about getting out of the flight deck and chatting to F/As is a chance to get away from a nutter pilot if you’re flying with them, in the flight deck the guy has you cornered and can unload all his opinions on you about politics, finance, union stuff, his ex wives, conspiracy theories and every topic under the sun. Sometimes it’s just good to chat to a normal human being again……….

[student88]

How long was the flight?

Personally I enjoy the solitude of being left alone on the flight deck every now and again, if there is an emergency I'll cycle the seatbelt signs or make a PA for my colleague to return to the flight deck. I also enjoy taking time to stretch my legs and walk around the cabin, say hello to the crew etc.

However, on an easyJet flight with the forward galley in full view of the passengers, I cant deny that the optics of a pilot spending an extended period in the galley are such that passengers would feel uncomfortable after a few minutes. Personally I wouldn't have stood there for so long, but given a different galley config/privacy curtain it would be a different story.

[Cough]

Can't help feeling the only relevant reply on this thread is that from B757...

[giggitygiggity]

Can't help feeling the only relevant reply on this thread is that from B757...
Agreed.

[Denti]

Airlines have opposed pilot's unions on this, and won for purely financial reasons. Until the next incapacitation/murder-suicide, when they will have to do a couple of years penance in safety mode and bring the CC back.


Have they? In Europe? Back when the strong suggestion from EASA came (it was never a rule, i believe BA never introduced it) i was a union rep. Not only me, but the whole union was very much against the untrained, not properly security checked, after a 3 week course fully „qualified“ observer on the flightdeck rule. We had safety cases around that issue for years and they all came straight out against it. Yes, in my outfit we introduced it as well, the safety management was very clear: their safety case was against it, the rule was brought in as pure publicity stunt and quietly dropped a year later. There are airlines that still use it, mainly because they have not installed cameras and therefore need someone out of the seat to identify the person that wants to get in. They have no choice, without the camera system it is a clear requirement.

[DuncanDoenitz]

The best bit about getting out of the flight deck and chatting to F/As is a chance to get away from a nutter pilot if you’re flying with them, in the flight deck the guy has you cornered and can unload all his opinions on you about politics, finance, union stuff, his ex wives, conspiracy theories and every topic under the sun. Sometimes it’s just good to chat to a normal human being again……….
PF: "Thank God that nutter's gone to annoy the cabin crew".

[vegassun]

Pilots on a 2 crew aircraft should not be chatting for 30 minutes in the cabin. Do your job.

I don't chat back there; I hone my 45 minute standup comedy routine at the front of the cabin.

[tdracer]

On another note, can I ask what is the American policy these days when it comes to one leaving for the loo etc?

To the best of my knowledge, the FAA never mandated or even recommended not leaving a single person alone on the flight deck when a pilot took a comfort break.
As others have mentioned, a truly suicidal pilot can crash a pilot if they are so determined regardless of how many people are on the flight deck - for example, going full nose down at 500ft. during takeoff or landing would leave no time for successful intervention. Mandating (at least) two people at all times was at best a 'feel good' PR after Germanwings.
A while back I was in first class flying Alaska Airlines somewhere - mid flight the pilots took a comfort break - one at a time of course. What I found mildly amusing was that - when the flight deck door was open, the flight attendant - a young (20ish), very pretty, rather petit flight attendant stood in the aisle - doing her best to look intimidating - to block access to any bad actors who wanted to access to the flight deck while the door was open. Purely symbolic - since unless the young lady was secretly a black belt or similar - I'm sure she wouldn't have been able to provide more than token resistance to a determined bad actor...

BTW, I do agree that - while a brief chat with a FA while taking their comfort break is acceptable, 30 minutes would be excessive...

[BraceBrace]

Can't help feeling the only relevant reply on this thread is that from B757...

What’s the big secret?

[fireflybob]

Do Easy have CCTV on the flightdeck to see who is in the area of the cockpit door?
When I flew with another carrier the main reason for having a cabin crew member on the flight deck was to check through the spyhole (to ensure that those with mal intent were not there) when the crew member was returning to the flight deck.
(Obviously pilot on his/her own cannot vacate seat to check spyhole).

[enzino]

I am not in orange, but despite having CCTV camera on the flight deck, we always apply the two person in the flight deck at all times.

[rattle]

Why the assumption that the CC replacement is the youngest person on the flight rather than more senior cabin crew?

[lowskids]

If I had my way I’d block that forward toilet off and make it for crew use only. Curtain off the galley.

Don’t think Joe Public would be impressed though.
Like UA crew does on 777 long hauls:rolleyes:

[prickly]

Anyone who feels ii's OK for cockpit crew to hang around the galley drinking coffee or shooting the breeze with pax in the cabin mid flight is certainly someone I don't want to fly with, ever.

[Flyhighfirst]

The best bit about getting out of the flight deck and chatting to F/As is a chance to get away from a nutter pilot if you’re flying with them, in the flight deck the guy has you cornered and can unload all his opinions on you about politics, finance, union stuff, his ex wives, conspiracy theories and every topic under the sun. Sometimes it’s just good to chat to a normal human being again……….

Best thing any pilot can learn. You don’t need to talk the whole flight. Silence isn’t awkward.

[Gordomac]

One minute certain folk recommend single-crew only ops, followed by pilotless flight=decks followed, in the same breath, insistence on no-one leaving the flight-deck.Few pilots amongst that lot.

[FullWings]

What’s the big secret?
Quite. All of the relevant information is just a simple internet search away.

Germanwings proved to bad actors that, if operations are according to procedure, the flight deck remains secure. It also implied that the best course of action would be to take a bit more interest in employees metal health, not shove extra people who are not pilots into the cockpit and expect them to make any difference apart from a) the flight deck door opening for twice as often as it needs to be or b) being open for twice as long, both of which are undesirable security wise and one of the reasons why the majority of airlines do not do this if they have any choice.

If there is someone in a pilot’s seat who wants to end it all, there is very little anyone can do about it, even if they are sitting next to them. Even critical mistakes/misdiagnoses with no ill intent can end up irrecoverable (AF447). The solution is to make sure people with that mindset don’t get on the aeroplane to start with.

[A340Yumyum]

Pilots on a 2 crew aircraft should not be chatting for 30 minutes in the cabin. Do your job.


And you get back to FS98, keyboard warrior.

[fireflybob]

If people are so concerned about a pilot leaving the flight deck in the cruise for a personal comfort break and even dare to engage in having a tea/coffee and chat with cabin crew then why not have three pilots on the flight deck or even four?
This would mean pilots could get a proper rest break especially on a long duty day.
Add to this bunk facilities for inflight rest on all flights.
I'm sure the passengers and the airlines would be quite happy to pay for an extra level of safety.

[golfbananajam]

As SLF, it wouldn't worry me one bit if either of the flight deck crew came into the main cabin for a break during cruise flight. I'd even go so far as to say they should talk to the SLF while they're there, not just the crew, you know, make a fuss of us, show us we're special, good PR.

[vilas]

If people are so concerned about a pilot leaving the flight deck in the cruise for a personal comfort break and even dare to engage in having a tea/coffee and chat with cabin crew then why not have three pilots on the flight deck or even four?
This would mean pilots could get a proper rest break especially on a long duty day.
Add to this bunk facilities for inflight rest on all flights.
I'm sure the passengers and the airlines would be quite happy to pay for an extra level of safety.
When passenger buys a ticket it's meant for travel with safety an airline that cannot provide it needs to close down. Passenger doesn't have to pay extra for that. If passengers think this way then for pilot error accident they wouldn't accept human factor certificate but will demand punitive refund.

[MENELAUS]

Qué ?

[ShyTorque]

*Whatiffery alert*

Some seem to be almost paranoid about the two staff on the flight deck rule. Mandating that a CC member becomes the second person on the flight deck doesn’t account for a situation where the CC, rather than the pilot taking a break, intends the aircraft take its final nosedive to the surface and have been waiting for said opportunity.

Nor does it take into account a single pilot operation.
My interest is semantic only. I’ve spent much of my career flying aircraft where if I left the flight deck I’d fall out into the air.

[70 Mustang]

when the FO left the flight deck. Many were much better looking than the absent FO! And I never made them rush back. I have been fully able to avoid distraction while at the same time fully enjoying the visual improvements.

regarding the German Wings, I strongly suspect that he would not have been so disconnected with reality if a fellow human had been in the flight deck with him at the time. Alone, his mental state could quickly implode when he was the only person in his field of focus and perhaps reacting to the absent Captain. With another human, next to him, bringing another “life” into the flight deck most likely would have prevented his descending into his internal vortex.

[brakedwell]

Times have changed! This was 50 years ago, in a Britannia from Kathmandu to Hong Kong. The visitors were a Gurkha Major and his daughter.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x673/ghurka_major_daughter_flt_deck_26913c136eabb2e40a9976bd83094 2500694d1e5.jpeg

[WhatsaLizad?]

.. Meanwhile the Bad Guys are reading all this with interest..Not smart postings on a public website..

Fly safe,
B-757

Add me to the list of you and the few others above who seem to possess some situational awareness.

It's bad enough on PPrune with every well meaning enthusiast or SLF clogging up the incident threads, but drawing out in detail the procedures, policies and practices of cockpit access inflight on a public forum is beyond any common sense.

[excrab]

Add me to the list of you and the few others above who seem to possess some situational awareness.

It's bad enough on PPrune with every well meaning enthusiast or SLF clogging up the incident threads, but drawing out in detail the procedures, policies and practices of cockpit access inflight on a public forum is beyond any common sense.

Or alternatively, the savvy terrorist, rather than having to find the existence of pprune just needs to use Google. Get a grip. Pprune isn’t that important.

[BraceBrace]

When passenger buys a ticket it's meant for travel with safety an airline that cannot provide it needs to close down. Passenger doesn't have to pay extra for that. If passengers think this way then for pilot error accident they wouldn't accept human factor certificate but will demand punitive refund.

Same applies for the pilots who want to fly in safety. Comparing the number of hijacks causing fatalities to pilot suïcide causiyng fatalities, you might end up timing how much time passengers spend on their legs talking to others...

[WhatsaLizad?]

Or alternatively, the savvy terrorist, rather than having to find the existence of pprune just needs to use Google. Get a grip. Pprune isn’t that important.

"Get a grip"?
I'll spare my true verbal feelings, my co-workers along with my companies customers and innocents on the ground were slaughtered on 9/11, there is zero sense in making it easier for those that still desire today to pull a repeat of that terrible day. Only an abject fool would consider supplying information like has already been posted in this thread without any thought to it's end use by bad actors.

Yes, Google exists, but why give an inch to make it easier?

[Bluffontheriver123]

There are lots of factors at play. Guess what, when both pilots are present, sometimes one is asleep.

Taking a break or nap is designed to make sure the crew are at their best when really needed for the approach and landing. Sitting for 9 hours in the dark, wide awake in the wee hours without a break is dangerous. Likewise gassing away for 30 mins is unnecessary.

The question though was about the need for a baby sitter:
It takes a crew member away from a busy cabin unnecessarily.
If the pilot becomes incapacitated the AP will happily fly until the other returns.
It doesn’t reduce the risk of a suicidal pilot
it does increase the number of times the cockpit door opens

so make your risk assessment but I for one, will leave the flight deck to stretch my legs, make a cuppa, have a brief chat with the crew and return. I might even do a crossword before top of descent to get my brain working after 8 hours in the dark.

[Gizm0]

There are lots of factors at play. Guess what, when both pilots are present, sometimes one is asleep.

Taking a break or nap is designed to make sure the crew are at their best when really needed for the approach and landing. Sitting for 9 hours in the dark, wide awake in the wee hours without a break is dangerous. Likewise gassing away for 30 mins is unnecessary.

The question though was about the need for a baby sitter:
It takes a crew member away from a busy cabin unnecessarily.
If the pilot becomes incapacitated the AP will happily fly until the other returns.
It doesn’t reduce the risk of a suicidal pilot
it does increase the number of times the cockpit door opens

so make your risk assessment but I for one, will leave the flight deck to stretch my legs, make a cuppa, have a brief chat with the crew and return. I might even do a crossword before top of descent to get my brain working after 8 hours in the dark.

About the most sensible post on this thread so far. Mods: time to lock this one up?

[Rozy1]

They might not always be socialising, who knows what they talk about? I was the other day standing in the forward galley with the curtain drawn, the CC wanted me to review some docs on the iPad and asked for my view. I was drinking coffee at the same time, hope that all sits well with you.

On another note, can I ask what is the American policy these days when it comes to one leaving for the loo etc?

The regulations provide why in the US we can’t have one person alone with a need also to check the peephole:


§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.

[sudden twang]

The regulations provide why in the US we can’t have one person alone with a need also to check the peephole:


§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.

could you share what para (b) is.

[the_stranger]

could you share what para (b) is.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-G/part-121/subpart-T/section-121.543#p-121.543(b)

[hans brinker]

The regulations provide why in the US we can’t have one person alone with a need also to check the peephole:


§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.(b) A required flight crewmember may leave the assigned duty station -

(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;

(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or

(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period, and relief is provided -

(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command during the en route cruise portion of the flight, by a pilot who holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in § 61.167 of this chapter (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-61.167) and an appropriate type rating, is currently qualified as pilot in command or second in command, and is qualified as pilot in command of that aircraft during the en route cruise portion of the flight. A second in command qualified to act as a pilot in command en route need not have completed the following pilot in command requirements: The 6-month recurrent flight training required by § 121.433(c)(1)(iii) (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.433#p-121.433(c)(1)(iii)); the operating experience required by § 121.434 (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.434); the takeoffs and landings required by § 121.439 (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.439); the line check required by § 121.440 (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.440); and the 6-month proficiency check or simulator training required by § 121.441(a)(1) (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.441#p-121.441(a)(1)); and

(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot qualified to act as second in command of that aircraft during en route operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent experience requirements of § 121.439(b) (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.439#p-121.439(b)).

Added para (b) for completeness. And this isn't the reason why we have an FA in the cockpit when one of us leaves, getting up to let the other guy in could be a duty in connection with operating the aircraft. These rules predate 9/11. These rules are for duty rest and lav breaks, that is it. The security theater, with locked doors, code words and all the secure info we won't disclose on a public website is in a different place.

[sudden twang]

So the entire argument comes down to ones interpretation of the definition of physiological needs.
interestingly a LHR NBO flight had an incident a while back with an FO on a physiological break.

[vilas]

(b) A required flight crewmember may leave the assigned duty station -

(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;

(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or

(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period, and relief is provided -

(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command during the en route cruise portion of the flight, by a pilot who holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in § 61.167 of this chapter (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-61.167) and an appropriate type rating, is currently qualified as pilot in command or second in command, and is qualified as pilot in command of that aircraft during the en route cruise portion of the flight. A second in command qualified to act as a pilot in command en route need not have completed the following pilot in command requirements: The 6-month recurrent flight training required by § 121.433(c)(1)(iii) (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.433#p-121.433(c)(1)(iii)); the operating experience required by § 121.434 (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.434); the takeoffs and landings required by § 121.439 (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.439); the line check required by § 121.440 (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.440); and the 6-month proficiency check or simulator training required by § 121.441(a)(1) (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.441#p-121.441(a)(1)); and

(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot qualified to act as second in command of that aircraft during en route operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent experience requirements of § 121.439(b) (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-121.439#p-121.439(b)).

Added para (b) for completeness. And this isn't the reason why we have an FA in the cockpit when one of us leaves, getting up to let the other guy in could be a duty in connection with operating the aircraft. These rules predate 9/11. These rules are for duty rest and lav breaks, that is it. The security theater, with locked doors, code words and all the secure info we won't disclose on a public website is in a different place.
This should close any arguments suggesting otherwise. Pilot's duty station is in the cockpit and he should be there. Building public relations in the cabin during cruise is not his job.

[Gordomac]

VILAS; We know what a Duty Station is and we are permitted to leave. We do not enter the cabin in order to build public relations but, often, that is an outcome welcomed by the commercial department.

Envious SLF on here would have us in the seat, full harness, headsets on, raybands on, oxymasks & goggles round the neck, ready. Maybe, like the old clark Gable movies, hats on too but with the headset on over the top, from start to end (some 12 hours in many cases.

I would leave the FD, often, but only to engage with female CC in the rear galley in order to arrange down-route, night stop planning. I would return to a smiling, highly competent Secondin Commander with the usual ; " Sorted !".