Possible terrorist attempt Stockholm

[ORAC]

BBC - Thursday, 29 August, 2002, 20:52 GMT 21:52 UK
20 held after gun found at airport

An airline passenger and about 20 other people, thought to be heading for an Islamic conference in the UK, are being held in Sweden after a handgun was found in hand luggage.
Swedish police say they are treating the incident "very, very seriously" and a terrorist connection is being considered.

A Swedish police spokesman told BBC News Online a 29-year-old man, who is from Tunisia but has Swedish citizenship, was being questioned along with other passengers, also believed to be going to the conference.

The gun was found on Thursday at Vasteras Airport, west of Stockholm, as passengers prepared to board Ryanair flight FR685 to Stansted Airport in Essex, a spokeswoman for the airline said.

Ulf Palm, a spokesman for Vasteras Police, said luggage and the plane itself were being checked for any explosive devices.

"We are checking to see there are no explosives or guns," he said. "We are taking this very, very seriously.

"The suspect was with a group of about 20 people and we have information, which is being checked out, that they were heading for an Islamic conference in Birmingham.

Mr Palm could not say when the flight would go ahead.

[Crepello]

BBC News 24 reports that Swedish Police just charged a 29-year old with the incident, and that FR sent a relief aircraft which departed 10 hours late.

Full marks to the security staff concerned.

[Edited for spelling, more coffee needed...]

[Brenoch]

Thats an awfully long turnaround for being Ryanair.. :D

[Whiskey Zulu]

Storm in a tea cup. Ryanair would have lost the bag with the gun in anyway. Why do they lose so many bags ffs?

[Shuttleworth]

Again - well done - Swedish police.
I wonder how many other authorities would have been capable of making the discovery and handling the situation so well.
__________________________________________

It raises the point - that we are still very much at risk from these moslems.

I recently attended my annual security session at Cranebank. The "security" lecturer started the session, by asking the audience a question; "How do you think passengers would react (post911) if there was a hijack on board?"

He claimed that the hijacker would be instantaneously overrun by law abiding passengers - and therefore there was no longer any risk.
This astonishing claim was accepted by the class and we went on to talk about other kinds of security threat.

Now; this is from a senior person with full DOT backing. What the heck are they thinking? Here is a flight with 20 moslems attending a meeting in Birmingham and one tries to get a gun aboard.


If this Ryanair aircraft and all lives aboard had been lost - then apart from the human tragedy - 30% of pilots reading this forum would lose their livlihoods as airlines suffer further commercial collapse.
I personally think we deserve a better approach to the problem from our governments. I believe they have implemented no real change and have put their heads in the sand hoping it wont happen again.

:mad:

[luvly jubbly]

X Ray machine picked up gun in washbag. Police refusing to say if it was real or loaded.

Even without a gun, 20 determined terrorists could easily take over a 737. What the hell can you do about that??????????

LJ

[brabazon]

Shuttleworth

Let's not jump to conclusions about this incident and just be thankful that the security staff at Vasteras were vigilant enough to spot it and deal with it.

[Captain Stable]

Agreed, brabazon.

What concerns me, though, is that there is only one line of defence in sutuations like these, and that is the security staff.

If the X-ray machine isn't working properly, or the staff ar not as vigilant as they were yesterday, then the gun gets on board.

It doesn't matter if it was real or whether it was loaded or not. If people believe it is real when it is produced, then your in deep doodoo.

Should carryon baggage be examined twice? Once before the departure lounge and once at the gate?

[Robert Vesco]

luvly jubbly has a point,

Who needs weapons if you have 20 mad men screaming and kicking around in the cabin. If you can´t smuggle weapons across security, you can certainly get 20 ´honnest´ passengers with a valid boarding pass through security.

Even if the cockpit door is closed and locked it won´t do much good, unless it´s reinforced.

[Fly747]

Maybe there should be a rule that no more than say 4 people of any one ethnic or religious group should be allowed to travel on the same aircraft.

[MarkD]

Shuttleworth

He claimed that the hijacker would be instantaneously overrun by law abiding passengers - and therefore there was no longer any risk.

This would include you I assume? Why did you wait for "the class" to dispute it?

Getting back to the incident at hand,

WZ: the gun couldn't have been lost by FR because it was in *hand luggage*, smart alec

Why did FR have to send a relief aircraft? Was it because the original departed without pax?

[Smokie]

Fly747.
The annual haj would be a no,no as would the trips to Lourdes then ! :D

[timzsta]

Well done to the security staff. It is, however, what they get paid for. No one says well done to the crew when a plane completes a flight without crashing, because its the crews job not to crash.

The Ryanair basher who made the comment about the bag - that was pathetic. Hopefully the moderators will take appropriate action.

Ryanair had to send another aircraft because the one that was to originally operate the service, as you could see from the news footage, was being extensively searched by police, sniffer dogs, and no doubt a few other organisations.

Whoever suggested that groups of no more than 4 from one religion or race on a flight - again not very clever. A family of five asian people comes to check in on a flight - two adults, three childrem. "Sorry Mr and Mrs Patel, we only excpet groups of 4 people who are not white european males". I dont think so.

Those that think passengers would overwhelme terrorists need to have a rethink in my opinion. How do you overwhelme 20 determined and motivated hijackers?

This is a timely reminder, less than a year after Sep 11, that there are those out there who still try, and in this case, came very close to succeeding, to commit acts of terrorism in commercial flights. It beholds everyone of us in the aviation industry to stay sharp and be vigilant.

[A300Man]

Brenoch and Whisky Zulu,

Your comments are misguided. I feel that to make a mockery of something that could have been a serious situation (it COULD have been, but thankfully wasn't) is very incorrect.

Those members of this forum who have perhaps been directly affected by terrorism acts won't thank you for your comments either!!

Well done to the Security staff.

[faheel]

Fly 747, that is the dumbest thing I have read on pprune in at least 24hrs!
Err, so no one would fly in the US or the UK just for starters, how many Catholics, Protestants do you think board an a/c in those countries?? a hell of a lot more thsn 4 thats for sure.

[Elvis21]

Captain Stable,

That is a good idea. At Dubai airport they even check your baggage once you have got off the plane and are leaving the airport. They also check it twice on the way in. Once at the front door and then again at the usual points.

As for the idiotic comments about only 4 per group, what about the white terrorists? Timothy McVeigh et al:rolleyes:

[L1011]

Fly 747,

You said:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe there should be a rule that no more than say 4 people of any one ethnic or religious group should be allowed to travel on the same aircraft.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you trying to drive all the remaining airlines to bankruptcy?

Or is this a particularly unsavoury wind-up to all the non-WASP's who read PPrune.

An apology would be in order if it was inadvertant.

[Low-Pass]

OK so once again, we have the forces of darkness trying to take over the world. We really need to do something about these Muslims! While we're at it we can take care of the Jews, Hindu's, Cathlics, Prodestants and the Chinese (hey, they don't really have religion over there, but they look different to us clean living white folk) :rolleyes:

Why didn't more people comment on the guy who left a loaded pistol in his carry-on in the US because he "forgot" (see Notices a few days ago - I don't know how to post the link). The only comments there were ones of understanding. So we accept gun-culture in the US but not elseware? Let try not to maintain double-standards.

The issue here is that the guy tried to take a pistol (real/replica, loaded/unloaded, it doesn't matter) on a flight. So well done to the Swedish Security and lets keep this focused on how to prevent anyone from getting on with such a weapon.

Fly747 - I have to agree with faheel, except that I would say that it's the dumbest idea I've heard on Pprune all week!

Cheers,

LP

[Fly747]

To the contrary, the wind-up was directed at those who immediately bash Muslims.

[Low-Pass]

Apologies Fly747

[Lou Scannon]

It would be helpful if a European Islamic organisation or spokesman could now make a statement that would disassociate the true believers from those who would seek to advance their own perverted views through force.

Silence, in this case, is not golden.

[Oscar Duece]

Side point.

Was watching the report from a distance last night. Was the plane a 737 ? I thought I saw an almost white plane with ryanair marking and rear engines ??

:confused: :confused:

[MarkD]

Lou Scannon:

indeed it would, the problem being that as the Economist recently pointed out, virtually anyone can set up shop in Western Europe, declare themselves an imam, set up a mosque and start teaching anti-Western hatred.

It is much more difficult for the Islamic moderates to claim to be the mainstream as they are only now getting to grips with secular lobbying processes. The same article called for Western governments to assist [except in US for constitutional reasons] the setting up of Islamic theological colleges as most imams are currently taught in the Arab world and take on that political worldview prior to immigrating to the West.

[Semaphore Sam]

Timzsta said:
"This is a timely reminder, less than a year after Sep 11, that there are those out there who still try, and in this case, came very close to succeeding, to commit acts of terrorism in commercial flights."

The implication is that this was, in fact, a hijacking attempt, or something similar. If they were enroute to an Islamic conference, they would not have made it there had he/they actually hijacked the aircraft. So, what has been determined? Was this another 'error' by a stupid passenger (like that lady in the US last week), or, as Timzsta asserts, and ACTUAL terrorism event?

[stagger]

Lou Scannon and Semaphore Sam - this story on the BBC website seems relevant to the issues you've raised...

Hijack suspect 'not attending conference'

An organiser of an Islamic conference in Birmingham says it is "highly unlikely" that the man charged with trying to hijack a Ryanair flight in Sweden, was due to attend the conference.
Security officers at Stockholm's Vasteras Airport say they found a handgun in a toiletries bag when they scanned the 29-year-old man's hand luggage.

The man - who was born in Sweden to Tunisian parents - had been trying to board a Ryanair flight to London's Stansted airport.

Swedish Police say he was with a party travelling to an Islamic conference in Birmingham and believe the man was going to hijack the plane.

Abu Khadeejah, one of the organisers of the 6th Islamic National Conference in Small Heath, said he would be "surprised" if the man was attending the three-day event, which begins on Friday.

It is being sponsored by Salafipublications.com.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The one thing Salafipublications.com is known for is refuting and exposing those types of ideologies within the fold of Islam that try to put forward the type of viewpoint that you can hijack and take the lives of innocent individuals."

He added: "It's something that we have even produced a booklet on post September 11.

"Around 20,000 copies were distributed freely among various groups and organisations clarifying the true Islamic position."

Mr Khadeejah said the conference was pay-at-the-door therefore there was no official list of those attending until they turned up on the day, but he had not received any confirmation about anyone from Sweden attending.

Among the topics being discussed at the conference are Islamic fundamentalism, the Islamic creed and the life of the Prophet Mohammed.

Mr Khadeejah said up to 3,000 delegates were expected at the conference.

It’s reassuring to know that although the conference organisers have no list of who's attending they can be reasonably sure that the guy apprehended in Sweden wasn’t on his way to the meeting – simply because he was trying to board an aircraft carrying a gun.

They have no idea who’s coming but he certainly wasn’t…..hmmmm…:(

[Rananim]

This was a clear attempt to bring down that Ryanair aircraft...probably on Buckingham palace or the Houses of Parliament.Thanks to the vigilance of the Swedes,it was thwarted but what if it had succeeded?Maybe you'd be a little more understanding of just what the US has suffered this last year(or decade for those with short memories) and not so quick to criticize what has to be done in this war of survival.Its either them or us.You choose.But dont whinge or utter platitudes whilst you're sitting on the fence making up your mind.
I note some snide anti-American remarks on another thread re the proposal to ban foreign flights into DC and NYC on the 911 anniversary.Well,you're entitled.But you only betray your own naivete and gullability.The risk of a copycat attack is much higher than many suppose.With the US airports on high alert,it would not be unreasonable to assume that the terrorists would try their luck on a States-bound foreign carrier.I recently walked thru MXP crew check without being stopped or asked to present ID.
So lets cut the talk of United Nations(what a joke)..we're about as united as a square peg in a round hole anyways.The US will make up its own mind and if you're not part of the solution,you're part of the problem.WW11 was prolonged by months because Eike was too wrapped up in preserving the Alliance instead of sending his best general(Patton) into the Nazi fray.
The pussy-footing around stops now.

[sky9]

The question that really needs to be asked is when was he highlighted as suspect? Was he profiled and questioned after he checked in then watched as he went through security; or was he picked up at the X-ray machine?
From the information on the BBC he had the classic profile that should have been highlighted the moment he booked his ticket. If it took until the X-ray machine the system had failed at the first hurdle we should thank the operators and all count ourselves lucky.

[timzsta]

The aircraft was a Ryanair Boeing 737-800, believe the reg was EI-CSB from what I saw on the TV this lunchtime. That aircraft taxied past me for what must have been the outbound leg to Stockholm on Thursday afternoon as was working out on the "C" stands at Stansted. Rather brings it home to you.

Also seen on the knews that a man was arrested during a fuelling stop at Birmingham on a PIA A310 from Pakistan-Birmingham-somewhere in north america this morning. Aircraft is being thoroughly searched. I wonder if there is any connection, given that the passenger arrested in Stockholm claimed he was trying to reach Birmingham.

[Rollingthunder]

A man arrested in Sweden on suspicion of intending to hijack a plane bound for Britain has denied any knowledge of a gun in his
luggage.


"We believe he was going to hijack the plane,"
police spokesman Ulf Palm said.

The man has been preliminarily charged with planning to hijack a plane, an offence which carries a sentance of between six months and life imprisonment.

The suspect has previous convictions for theft and assault,

Airport police officer Anders Fryksell told the AFP news agency that the man had denied any knowledge of the weapon.

"He says he doesn't know how the weapon ended up in his luggage," he said.

"He doesn't explain anything, he just denies everything."

Thanks to the Swedes for their vigilance and thanks to the idiot himself for being terminally STUPID

[PAXboy]

Rananim, this sounds like a wholsesale windup but, assuming that you are for real ... you say This was a clear attempt to bring down that Ryanair aircraft... probably on Buckingham palace or the Houses of Parliament. Thanks to the vigilance of the Swedes, it was thwarted but what if it had succeeded?
At the present time, the Swedish Police state that they think it was a hijack attempt but you state that it was. The extra information that you have will doubtless be used in court when the man comes to trial. :rolleyes:

You go on:
The pussy-footing around stops now.
Perhaps what you meant to say was, "The blind assumption that we know what is correct, even if we are on the other side of the Atlantic, and the belief that we have the right to direct action as we want."

Should Stop Now.

[M.Mouse]

Rananim

....but what if it had succeeded?Maybe you'd be a little more understanding of just what the US has suffered this last year

I think it might be more accurate to say that the US now knows what the rest of the world has been contending with for the last 30 years.

Remind me where a substantial proportion of the IRA's funding came from, would you?

[EI_Sparks]

Hmmm. Yup, dodgy thing to happen. Not terribly worrying mind you. Want to see worrying?


It raises the point - that we are still very much at risk from these moslems.


Hmmm. Yes, quite. Of course, I personally feel at risk from all you religious freaks. Afterlife. *pftttt*


Who needs weapons if you have 20 mad men screaming and kicking around in the cabin. If you can´t smuggle weapons across security, you can certainly get 20 ´honnest´ passengers with a valid boarding pass through security.


Yes. He may be innocent, unarmed, peaceful, not bothering anyone, but NOOOOOOOOOOOO! - he's a muslim!!! Shoot the bastard!!! Hurry!!! He might be thinking about taking over the world!!!! Oh, wait - that's the russians, isn't it?


Those that think passengers would overwhelme terrorists need to have a rethink in my opinion. How do you overwhelme 20 determined and motivated hijackers?


But that's easy! You just convert to islam and be one of them! *sheesh* You so stuuuupid!!!




From the information on the BBC he had the classic profile that should have been highlighted the moment he booked his ticket. If it took until the X-ray machine the system had failed at the first hurdle we should thank the operators and all count ourselves lucky.


Ah, profiling. That wonderful way of watching people because they have the same skin colour as someone else that did something bad once. Pity, really, that it works as well as chocolate frying pans...


Maybe you'd be a little more understanding of just what the US has suffered this last year(or decade for those with short memories) and not so quick to criticize what has to be done in this war of survival.Its either them or us.You choose.But dont whinge or utter platitudes whilst you're sitting on the fence making up your mind.


The US will make up its own mind and if you're not part of the solution,you're part of the problem.WW11 was prolonged by months because Eike was too wrapped up in preserving the Alliance instead of sending his best general(Patton) into the Nazi fray.
The pussy-footing around stops now.


Brenoch and Whisky Zulu,

Your comments are misguided. I feel that to make a mockery of something that could have been a serious situation (it COULD have been, but thankfully wasn't) is very incorrect.

Those members of this forum who have perhaps been directly affected by terrorism acts won't thank you for your comments either!!


Brenoch and Whisky Zulu,
As a member of this forum who grew up in a country that had an active terrorist problem from four hundred years before he was born and who grew up getting used to hearing of parents being shot in front of their children in their homes, kneecappings by the gross, people ordered to leave the country or have their family killed, or that old favorite, 17-year-olds being crucified with re-bars from a building site, I offically thank you for doing the best thing possible in the situation - poking fun at it. If the expletive deletor on the site wasn't censoring me, I could tell you what I think of the ignorant, self-important, puffed-up, bloodthirsty, arrogant, self-rightous, annoying, loud, obnoxious, racist, bigoted, myopic, sabre-rattling, goat-loving sons of brothers that have been posting here like they were members of the nationalist socialist party in Munich in the 1930s.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Honestly, why weren't these posts moderated? Capt PPRuNe, CrashDive, PPRuNe Towers, Sick Squid, are you conducting a social experiment in mob mentality or trying to raise the level of racial bigotry in the forum?

BTW, I know all those quotes came from different people - I don't care. You're all just as bad. Someone got arrested on a plane with a gun, which may or may not have been real. None knows who he's connected to, what his intentions were, or what his religion is or if that even has anything to do with his actions. In response, we get postings that don't bother holding short of branding a large segment of the world's population as bloodthirsty ignorant terrorists, a threat to be eliminated. Frankly, if you want a group like that, you need to look to US foreign policy from the last sixty years.

[FFFlyer]

Yeh, sure Mossad planted the gun there.

Awful lot of coincidences though isn't there.

Maybe if that degree of vigilance had been in place before Sept 11 it wouldn't have happened.

It always strikes me as strange that nobody ever criticises (or evne mentions now) what was Soviet communist foreign policy up to the fall of the USSR. All the world's ills are now a result of the US foreign policy over the last 60 years! Amazing!

[wooof]

This whole incident does rather beg the question whether a 737 makes the same size hole no matter what colour scheme it happens to have!

When the relevent authorities work that out:eek: maybe we will see all operators into and out of UK airspace being forced to modify cockpit doors to the new UK requirements. Otherwise the whole modification programe for UK registered aircraft could prove to be a waste of time and money.

At approx. £40000 a door MOL's going to have to sell a lot of £9.99 tickets:(

[uffington sb]

M. Mouse
Couldn't agree more. We in Europe have been fighting the 'War on Terrorism' for the last 30/40 years against groups such as the IRA,PIRA,INLA,ETA,RAF,Red Brigade,PLO,Black September,UDA etc etc etc.
Most of the money for the IRA groups coming from, guess who? the good 'ol US of A and going to, guess who? Col Gaddafi.
Welcome to the real world.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Firstly, a warning to those xenophobes suffering from acute paranoia, either get a grip of yourselves and start posting something sensible or else take your racial prejudice and phobias elsewhere.

Secondly, I find it rather startling that no one has tried to analyse this incident a bit more clearly. We do not know all the facts except what the press have reported, so, those of you with some form of divine perception can go and preside over a different audience, preferably on a different website.

From the mixed reports I have read, it would appear that the man actually was already in his seat on the a/c. Everyone was ordered off and had to identify their baggage, presumably checked-in bags. If that is the case then it is going to be very difficult to hijack the a/c if your gun is in the hold. So, it would seem that this man had a gun in his washbag, inside his checked in case and NOT in his hand baggage.

Because here in Europe all hold baggage has to be X-rayed and has been required so for several years, the system works. What may not be clear is the intent of this man once he arrived in the UK. He may just have been a sacrificial lamb (martyr) for a sinister cause who was used to 'test' the security system. He may have been trying to get the gun through so that on arrival it could be secreted 'semi-airside' for an accomplice to pick up and use somewhere else. He may just be an innocent mule who had the weapon planted without his knowledge. Thankfully we still have a legal system that presumes innocence until proven guilty and not the kangaroo court some posters on here would advocate.

What you have to realise is that a serious terrorist attempt takes a lot of time to plan and a lot of people to assist. An individual working on his own, whilst still a threat, is much less likely to achieve success. Any terrorist trying to stage another 'catastrophe' will probably come at us from a totally different and unexpected direction. It will take some of the best thinkers and planners to thwart all the serious, future attempts to stage the next mass murder of innocents. Unfortunately, because it has to take place in secrecy I doubt most politicians in power have the cojones to spend the money required and would rather squander it on the current 'cosmetic' security which is much more visible and affords them more soundbite opportunities.

Unless we have people in government who are prepared to provide the resources to seriously set up aviation security and use their sources of intelligence at all levels, not just the cosmetic farce that we have at the moment with private companies employing people on little more than minimum wage with minimal training, then it is only a matter of time before another cell or group stage another attack. Profiling, done by highly trained, intelligent people together with the latest technology that is available to assist them is the first step. Done properly with planning I don't think it will take any longer to check-in for most pax than it does now with the ridiculous queues we see at any major airport when waiting to pass through 'security' when it is busy.

We will still need some form of x-raying hand baggage and scanning of pax, but not as the last resort to stop a terrorist but to prevent the minority of the populace who are too stupid to realise that some items are just not acceptable in the cabin even though they never intended to use those items in an attack. All this confiscation of nail clippers is a petty show of futility by beaurocrats who have little comprehension of the operational side of our jobs, who have implemented rules based on a knee-jerk reaction and a need to be seen to be doing something and getting as many soundbites out it as possible. There will still be regular cases of 'air-rage' because of alcohol, nicotine withdrawal, drug abuse or plain psychotic behaviour. We train our cabin crews to deal with these incidents whilst we endeavour to get the a/c to the nearest airport so the the authorities will hopefully deal with the individuals. We have scanning of hold baggage to prevent terrorists planting bombs or smuggling weapons but what we don't appear to have is an integrated intelligence gathering service combined with a highly trained, government supported aviation security service who are able to use the proven methods of using that intelligence for thwarting highly organised attacks by well funded terrorist groups. Once the highly organised terrorist is on the a/c it is too late.

At the end of the day unless everyone is prepared to pay for this type of security and the politicos have the sincerety to push this through to the end, all we will have is the current situation which stifles our industry for very little increase in REAL security. Soundbite politics and political correctness will prevail and we will realise that big business and government would rather take the risk of another catastrophe than spend the serious money that it takes.

'Rant off'. Discuss. (Xenophobes not welcome)

[Lee-a-Roady Moor]

747 - I think your suggestion would is quite unworkable and a bit off the the limits. Discrimination - can you begin to imagine the lawsuits?

Whilst 9/11 is very much to the fore, it has been suggested that this was an isolated incident by someone who is suffering from serious mental problems - none of the other pax were considered a threat - according to media reports.

[essexeng]

I have only just started to read this subject and already,within just FOUR posts,there are already 2 morons making ridiculous 'slates' on Ryanair.This is UNBELIEVABLE!For christ's sake!surely you can recognise how potentially serious this incident could have been.When will you bunch of COMPLETE idiots realise that Ryanair are no different from any other airline,not only from the threats they face from terrorism,but the regulations they need to comply with,the standards of crew training,the standards of maintenance etc etc.This could have been BA,GO,BUZZ,BMI,BRITANNIA,the list goes on.Just GROW UP.I apologise if these things have been said in the rest of the topic,but i haven't got that far.If no other morons have made similar comments then i will look pretty stupid.If so i will be surprised.

Having read the rest of the post,just to raise the mood a little,with respect to my previous post,i think that 'standard of maintenance' should be placed above 'standard of crew training'!!!

[Wino]

Maybe some sort of probe or whatnot.

Security is a multilevel thing.
ARmed cockpit is a controvertial things but these (http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/InfoCenter/streaming_media.asp) videos are worth seeing and thinking about for the debate.

Cheers
Wino

[Caractacus]

>>it would seem that this man had a gun in his washbag, inside his checked in case and NOT in his hand baggage.<<

Danny, check the Times today:


>>Kerim Chatty, a keep-fit fanatic of Tunisian origin, was found with a loaded gun in his hand luggage as he arrived late to catch the Ryanair flight <<

[Fool's Hole]

It seems that smuggling a gun on board is getting more and more difficult, but how are we to stop someone from throwing a gun over a perimeter fence, once the accomplice is already airside?
I feel that this might be the next possible way ahead for them, watch your backs.

[HotDog]

but how are we to stop someone from throwing a gun over a perimeter fence, once the accomplice is already airside?

Come on Fool's Hole, you can't be serious. Just where is he going to throw it? How is the accomplice going to retrieve it?:rolleyes:

[Fool's Hole]

HotDog,

You must be extremely naive if you can't imagine the following:

Accomplice 1. is an airport worker ie; cleaner, catering, fuelling etc.... He/she has access to all areas and of course can go past any part of the perimeter fence at almost any time, (feel free to imagine a dark night!).
At the airport I work from there's plenty of perimeter fence, where passers by, observers and indeed anyone can come and go Right Next To The Fence on the outside. It's not tall and you could throw a sandbag with ease over it.

Accomplice 2. is a terrorist. He will throw the gun at his mate, because the mate (Accomplice 1.) is vetted and genuinely works at the airport. He has already been through security, so all he has to do is hide the gun, unitl it's needed.

I don't really want to go on with an obvious possible outcome, so, I hope this helps HotDog.

[Taildragger]

Danny...... My understanding was that this person had the gun in his handluggage. It would therefore be a very feeble attempt at a hijacking if he was relying on getting it past security to carry out his plan, and would not be part of a diabolical plot.
Rather the plans of someone disturbed. However, I don't mean to minimise the threat, just the feasability of his "cunning plan".
I have just heard on the 1300 BBC News that this man was planning to crash the aircraft into a US Embassy "Somewhere in Europe" Given the difficulty of identifying something like a building in the middle of a city (Twin towers excepted) it seems even more like this was a one off. It shows, though, that on the run up to September 11th 2002, there are people out there who want to harm us, and nothing less than total vigilance will do.

[sky9]

El_Sparks,

You suggest that profiling it a "chocolate saucepan". I would suggest that the profile of this individual is remarkably similar to the "shoe bomber" and should have been identified - and I don't mean that he is of Middle East origin and a Muslim. He was late checking in, had hand luggage only and was a single traveller.

One of the features of the present security situation is that there is no cohesive group, more a funding of individuals, some of whom are deeply committed, others of a more unbalanced mind.

It is however pertinent that in a recent conversation with a D of T (?) Inspector he made the point that it was extremely difficult to make "some" low cost carriers aware of the importance of proper security checks after passengers had left the plane and before boarding as they were reluctant to compromise their tight turnround times.

With regard to your complaints about other messages, compare your own to theirs, there is a similarity. Red smilies never look good on a posting.

[EI_Sparks]

sky9 :You suggest that profiling it a "chocolate saucepan". I would suggest that the profile of this individual is remarkably similar to the "shoe bomber" and should have been identified - and I don't mean that he is of Middle East origin and a Muslim. He was late checking in, had hand luggage only and was a single traveller.

That profile would have tagged my father more times than I care to remember - for when he'd be flying to the UK on one-day business trips. Anyone else out there fit the profile from one-day business trips?

Profiling may sound reasonable sky9, but observe the way in which it has been abused in the states - which has a lot more attention paid to checks and balances by police and security checks than I'd be used to - but then again, I'm used to the Irish way of life ...

And yes, I know I'm being intolerant of bigots. The irony isn't lost on me :) But what else can you do when people are so angry at someone that they start raging on against vast numbers of people, sometimes without noticing? I dislike getting angry, but reading this thread to date got me very worked up :(

[Check 6]

This should shed a little light on the subject:

NY Times/Reuters Headline (http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-sweden-hijack.html?todaysheadlines)

Sweden Says Hijack Suspect Planned U.S. Embassy Attack
By REUTERS


Filed at 9:12 a.m. ET

STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish man of Tunisian origin, arrested on suspicion he was about to hijack a plane, was planning to crash the aircraft into a U.S. embassy in Europe, Swedish intelligence sources said on Saturday.

The man was arrested on Thursday -- almost a year after the September 11 hijack attacks on the United States -- when a gun was found in his luggage as he boarded a flight to Britain from a small airport west of Stockholm.

Police were looking for four more men, including an explosives expert, who worked with him on the plan, the sources said.

"We know for sure that the plan was to crash the plane into a U.S. embassy in Europe,'' a military intelligence source told Reuters.

[Smoketoomuch]

It constantly surprises me that many of the people who complain about xenophobia, intolerance, profiling, stereotyping etc often then launch into an anti-American tirade :rolleyes:

As far as 'profiling' in this case goes, the 'suspect' was travelling with a group of 20 self-declared fundamentalist Muslims of the 'Salafi' sect - the same as OBL and Richard 'shoe-bomber' Reid. It now transpires that this small time crook had undergone pilot training in the US. Just how comfortable would you be sharing a plane with him? What about your wife and kids? Just how far do your 'anti-racism' credentials stretch?

[Capt PPRuNe]

BBC have now reported that Swedish authorities are denying that this mans intentions were to hijack the a/c and force it to crash on an unspecified US embassy. They are saying though, that this man has received some sort of pilot training in the US in the past.

My worry is that because this person does seem to have a certain 'profile' as is being reported (although I think the quality of the reporting appears to be rather limited and poorly researched) and IF his intention was a hijack then he should never have got as far as the check-in desk, never mind the x-ray machine before the departure lounge. Well trained profilers who are well briefed with intelligence from other government security agencies are a formidable deterrent to any terrorist organisation. It may not be PC but it is a lot cheaper than another success for Al Queida or any other organisation of indoctrinated murderers.

[SaturnV]

More information:

August 31, 2002

Swedish Man Said to Target U.S. Embassy; Official Refutes Report

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

STOCKHOLM, Sweden -- A man arrested at a Swedish airport after a gun was found in his carryon luggage was not planning a hijacking, his lawyer said Saturday, amid reports that the suspect had attended flight school in the United States.

The director of the national security police, meanwhile, denied a report that the suspect was planning to crash the aircraft into a U.S. embassy in Europe and that they were looking for four men connected to the plan.

"It's false information. ... I deny it absolutely," security police director Margareta Linderoth told The Associated Press. "We are not looking for four more men."

The 29-year-old suspect, identified by the defense attorney as Kerim Chatty, a Muslim, was detained Thursday at Vaesteraas airport in central Sweden as he prepared to board a Ryanair flight to London. Police said he was on his way with a group to an Islamic conference in Birmingham, England.

Several passengers already aboard the aircraft were evacuated while police searched the cabin and luggage compartment. The plane took off for its original destination several hours late without the suspect and the group police believed he was traveling with.

The suspect was being held on a preliminary charge of planning to hijack a plane. A hearing will be held in a few days to determine if the man should remain in custody until prosecutors decide whether to charge him.

Linderoth said her agency, known as SAPO, was working with local police and was investigating a possible link to terrorism. She also confirmed a media report that the man had an incomplete pilot education from the United States.

But she stressed that was just one part of the investigation and she declined to comment further on the motive.

"It's too early to say," she said, also denying reports that Swedish police had called for help from British experts. "We don't need experts from other countries."

Meanwhile, defense attorney Nils Uggla said his client can explain why he carried a gun in a toilet-articles bag and that Chatty regrets causing trouble for the 20 people booked on the same flight to Britain who also were detained for questioning and later released.

"He denies that this has anything at all to do with terrorism or airplane hijacking," Uggla told The Associated Press by telephone. "He is deeply sorry that he caused trouble for the others who were traveling."

Police said the suspect had been convicted of theft and assault.

The Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet reported on Saturday that the suspect had attended flight school in Conway, S.C. The paper quoted Jim Trautman, an official at the North American Institute of Aviation, as saying the suspect had studied at the school.

"Unfortunately I cannot see whether he finally received a diploma or not," Trautman was quoted as saying.

Ursula Alford, office manager at the North American Institute of Aviation in Conway, said she didn't remember anyone named Kerim Chatty or anyone matching his description studying at the school during the 21 years she's worked there. She said Trautman told her he doesn't recall anyone matching the description training there either.

Uggla would not comment on the report. He said he had spoken to Chatty by phone and would meet him Sunday at a police station in Vaesteraas, 60 miles northwest of the capital, Stockholm.

Uggla also wouldn't confirm that his client was heading to an Islamic conference as police said, but confirmed he was Muslim and on his way to Birmingham.

[Brizzo]

I am perfectly prepared to believe that this man was a potential hijacker, but it gets a bit far fetched to suggest that he planned to crash into a US embassy or wherever. Even if, all alone, he takes and keeps control of the a/c (nobody to watch his back) and assuming he is an ATPL, how will he find any US embassy? Do Ryanair carry A to Zs of European capitals? How easily could anyone find Grosvenor Square, and thus the Embassy? Let's not get too excited about particular targets. Of course some very large and well known buildings are potentially vulnerable, but in this case, it's unlikely.

[Check 6]

Here are the FAA records on this suspect:

KERIM SADOK CHATTY
Address
Address is not available
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medical
Medical Class : First Medical Date: 07/1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certificates
1 of 1
DOI : 05/04/1997
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

Also, if his attorney says he is innocent, then he must be innocent. Right??

:D :D :D

[Jet II]

I have to agree with Brizzo on this - its a bit far-fetched to say that he was going to fly into an American Embassy - I have enough trouble finding it when I'm driving, let alone wizzing around London in a 737.

I seem to remember that on Sept 11 the a/c that crashed in Washington onto the Pentagon was supposed to be going for the White House but couldn't find it. If you can't see the White House from 1000' what chance an Embassy?

:(

[PaperTiger]

Meanwhile, defense attorney Nils Uggla said his client can explain why he carried a gun
Go on then, I'd be interested.

Whatever the story here. the Swedes have done us a big favour. No major incidents for almost a year, guard coming down, people (including me) bitching about bumbling screeners, uproar/poo-pooing about anniversary concerns (see related thread) etc.

Big wake-up call, just when needed.

[curmudgeon]

This man had a PPL and a gun. Perhaps he is trying to pre-empt the arming of pilots that some of out American cousins feel so strongly about?

cur

[sky9]

"Sparky"

The fact that the profile would "tag" your father does not make him a terrorist, it would simply make him someone worthy of taking a closer look at. Having done that he would then have been allowed to go on his merry and profitable way.

The more that comes out on this the more interesting the question as to whether this was good information or luck.

I see that DL was very bullish in the Daily Tel. today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/08/31/nhij231.xml

[arcniz]

Whatever the resolution of this incident, it highlights the problem that no guarantee exists regarding professionalism on the part of troublemakers. Defensive strategies must include means for handling the crazy and inept alongside skilled and focussed psychopaths, with all shades of variation along the way.

For that reason, multiple counter-methods that are effective, cost efficient, and practical need to be deployed - as a matter of regular practice - to deal with the problem. Rather than debate whether A is better than B and C, etc., it makes sense to do everything now which can produce results and is economically and operationally feasible, then manage the evolution toward greater social sensitivity and better economy. A wide range of preventative measures, including improved physical security, background checks and profiling, inspection and random re-inspection, defensive methods, etc. will need to become an integral component of aviation procedure for the span of time - surely decades - needed to work down to the many roots and terminate these problems near their source.

[Seriph]

Why would he be looking to hit the US Embassy? Big Ben would be much easier.

[BELHold]

Who cares what religion, motives, target this HUMAN BEING may of had.

Simple fact remains that the Swedish Security Agents did their job and prevented a person boarding an aircraft with a firearm.

Airport Security vigilance would seem to have paid off, probably because the agent in question has become more aware since 9/11 and probably even stopped a F/O from carrying his multi tool onto his flight earlier.

Just be thankful that Security has become more interested in examining ANYTHING that may cause interference with your flight.

Well done that man!

[airbourne]

I, like everyone else was deeply shocked to see what is presumed to be another hijack atempt of an aircraft. I am not making light of what happened on 9/11, it indeed was terrible but it happened in New York, a world away for some people. Most of the members here, that are British, Irish would not have known the pilots and crew that suffered at the hands of terrorists last year.

This latest incident on the other hand has really hit home for me. I know a lot of Ryanair pilots and cabin crew. Had this individual succeeded I may have lost friends of mine. Is it not time to stop presuming what goes on with security and start to take responsibility for what we know. I as a pax would not mind checking in 3-4 hours before a flight if I thought that it was then going to be safe because all procedures had been followed and all checks made. Let us all do our best to keep our skys safe before we sit here and mourn the loss of one of our friends, one perhaps like you or me, that you may have innocently talked to the night before. Think about it my friends

[BOING]

Posters touched on a lot of good points here. Clearly the Swedes did a good job.

Point is that there are far more reliable ways for a terrorist to get weapons onto an aircraft rather than carrying them in their hand baggage. This makes me feel that this fellow was no more than a lone nutter. Did you notice that US security recently arrested a couple of suspect terrorists who were trying to get jobs at Detroit Airport? Perhaps the terrorists are trying to spread their actions around the various US carriers. (Detroit is a NorthWest hub).

[Caractacus]

Al Qaeda, being a 'smart' and (apparently still) well funded terrorist organisation, presumably run mules around the airline network looking for 'soft' points of entry.

It is fact that they chose Stockholm and Ryanair for this hijack attempt.

The jury is out as to whether the 'low cost' airline model can support as strong a security structure as a full service airline - the achived turn round times give the biggest clue to this. Stringent regulation is a pre requisite for safest practice and here we know that the IAA has a more relaxed culture than the CAA.

My point is this: Al Qaeda MUST have tested this plan and chosen this attack wth fore knowledge. We know it didn't work but perhaps it might have done?

[411A]

Those that don't care for Ryanair and their lower cost structure now seem to say that they can't be as safe or security-conscious as full service (read expensive) airlines?

What a load of horsepucky.

Forget it guys....those that don't like low-cost airlines will have to get used to them...the ain't going away anytime soon.;)

[Flight Safety]

From the MSNBC website...

Hijack suspect at U.S. flight school

NBC, MSNBC AND NEWS SERVICES

STOCKHOLM, Sweden, Sept. 1 — A man arrested in Sweden on suspicion that he was about to hijack a plane had taken flight training classes in the United States, Swedish police said Sunday. The disclosure emerged amid conflicting reports about the alleged hijacking attempt last week.

MARGARETA LINDEROTH, director of Sweden’s national security police, confirmed reports by NBC News and a Swedish newspaper that the suspect, Kerim Chatty, 29, took classes at the North American Institute of Aviation in Conway, S.C. But he did not complete the course and did not get a license, Linderoth said.

The school’s chief operating officer, Robert Sunday, said Chatty flunked out. “He just wasn’t a good student. ... He wasn’t cutting the mustard, and we let him go,” Sunday said.

At least three of the hijackers involved in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington attended or visited flight schools in the United States.

Reuters quoted unnamed Swedish military intelligence officials Saturday as saying authorities believed Chatty planned to crash the plane into a U.S. embassy in Europe and were looking for four men connected to the plan. But Linderoth flatly dismissed such speculation, calling it “false information.”

“I deny it absolutely,” she told The Associated Press. “We are [also] not looking for four more men.”

Nils Uggla, Chatty’s attorney, also said Chatty “denies that this has anything at all to do with terrorism or airplane hijacking. He is deeply sorry that he caused trouble for the others who were traveling.”

Uggla would not comment on the report about his client’s flight training.

A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Stockholm, Keith Petersen, would not comment, saying the investigation was “in the hands of Swedish authorities.”

PRELIMINARY CHARGES

Chatty was detained Thursday at Vaesteraas airport as he prepared to board a flight to London after police found a gun in his toiletries bag. Police said he was with a group of about 20 people bound for an Islamic conference in Birmingham, England.

Several passengers already aboard the aircraft were evacuated while police searched the cabin and luggage compartment. The plane took off for its original destination several hours late without Chatty and the group police said he was traveling with.

Chatty was held on a preliminary charge of planning to hijack a plane. A date for a preliminary hearing was not set. The other members of the group were questioned and released.

Organizers of the Muslim conference in Birmingham, hosted by the Salafi Bookstore and Islamic Center, said in a statement that they did not know Chatty and “have not had any communications with him.”

NOT A TERRORIST, ATTORNEY CLAIMS

Uggla said Chatty, who has convictions for theft and assault on his record, had an explanation for why he was carrying the gun, but he said he could not be more specific because of a gag order.

Uggla said Chatty “was very much against violence” and was being unfairly portrayed because of his religion and the proximity of the anniversary of Sept. 11 terror attacks on the United States.

“He is Muslim, he is flying, and he has a gun, and it’s close to 11 of September,” Uggla said. “That makes people draw quick conclusions.”

NBC’s Robert Windrem reported that there was no evidence to link Chatty to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaida terrorist organization, but he reported that U.S. officials noted that Chatty’s background fit a pattern of recent arrests of alleged terrorists.

Chatty’s background is similar to that of other suspected terrorists like Zacarias Moussaoui, indicted as a Sept. 11 co-conspirator; Richard Reid, the so-called shoe bomber; and Nizar Nawar, the Tunisian man who carried out the suicide bombing of a synagogue on the Tunisian tourist island of Djerba.

Reid, Moussaoui and Nawar were drifters who became devout Muslims and then were drawn into terrorist plots, the U.S. officials allege. Chatty has a long criminal record, as did Ressam and Reid, and British news reports said he was a recent convert to a more radical form of Islam.

NBC’s Robert Windrem and Javier Morgada, The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

What's interesting is that Check 6 posted the FAA record that shows the man clearly had obtained a PPL. The news services are behind on this point at present. If he washed out at the South Carolina flight school, then he must have obtained the PPL at another flight school. I think we'll hear more about this shortly. I think this story will continue to develop over the next several days.

[Capt PPRuNe]

There was a poster on this thread yesterday who claimed he was an instructor at the flight school where Chatty trained and knew him at that time. The post has been removed (not by us) and I would appreciate it if you could get in touch with me, preferably through the Private Message facility.

[Seriph]

The airline is not responsible for security at the airport, all airlines whether low cost or not are all screened by the same staff and system at the airport. It is amazing that in the land of the neurotics an airport is not required to screen or search hold baggage if it happens to handle less than a 'significant' number of pax.

[126.9]

to bringing Ryaniar under British jurisdiction as an international security measure

What a load of zenophobic, pathetic, better-than-though bullsh!t :mad: Whoever proved that security at British airports was any better than anywhere else?

[DX Wombat]

I do not intend getting involved in the, to my mind, very unprofessional squabbling about whether or not any particular airline/ religion/nationality/security service etc is better/ worse/ just the same as any other; all I would like to say is this: a passenger was found with a gun in his luggage, it may have been for the purpose of hijacking the aicraft or it may not. It may also have been an attempt to illegaly import a weapon into the UK. In either case we should be glad it was found. A hijack would have been dreadful and the damage caused by an illegal gun being imported may not have had quite the same large scale effects but could have spelled disaster for some families. I live in an area which suffered severe rioting in the not too distant past. I, for one, am just glad that another lethal weapon has been removed from circulation before anyone was hurt.

[Caractacus]

Gentlemen, my point is that terrorists choose soft targets they think they can breach. I.E. domestic U.S. carriers on 9/11.

This time they chose Stockholm/Ryanair presumably after a dummy run?

Becaue I make this point it doesn't mean I am anti Swedish/Irish.

[Flight Safety]

Again from the MSNBC website...this report is similar to the last one, but has a lot of new details.

NBC, MSNBC AND NEWS SERVICES

STOCKHOLM, Sweden, Sept. 1 — Swedish police confirmed Sunday that the man arrested on suspicion that he was about to hijack a plane last week had taken flight training classes in the United States, but they were sharply divided over the man’s intentions, with some saying he may have been planning to fly the plane into a U.S. embassy in Europe and others dismissing that possibility out of hand.

MARGARETA LINDEROTH, director of Sweden’s national security police, confirmed reports Saturday by NBC News and the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet that the suspect, Kerim Chatty, 29, took classes at the North American Institute of Aviation in Conway, S.C., near Myrtle Beach on the Atlantic Coast. But he did not complete the course, for which he paid $5,000, and did not get a license, Linderoth said.

The school’s chief operating officer, Robert Sunday, said Chatty flunked out. “He just wasn’t a good student. ... He wasn’t cutting the mustard, and we let him go,” Sunday said.

The Sun News of Myrtle Beach reported Sunday that the school teaches students only how to fly small planes, no bigger than the two-engine Piper Seminole. Even if he had finished the program, he would not have been able to fly a large passenger plane like the one he was boarding, the newspaper said.

“That’s the big story, to try to find out what did he do after he left our school, whether he had advanced training in a big plane,” the school’s retired president, Doug Beckner, told the newspaper. “All we were giving him was basic training, and we kicked him out. He would have had to train in a big simulator.”

At least three of the hijackers involved in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks attended or visited flight schools in the United States. In addition, the presumed organizer of the attacks, Mohammed Atta, lived for a while in Delray Beach, Fla., near Pembroke Pines, where Chatty was known to have lived after he left South Carolina, Aftonbladet reported Sunday.

The Swedish newspaper Expressen reported that friends said Chatty had made several trips abroad in the past year. It said he was questioned by police after Sept. 11 to establish whether he had any contacts with Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaida terrorist organization, which is believed to have carried out the attacks that killed 3,000 people in New York, suburban Washington and Pennsylvania.

TERROR ACCOUNT QUESTIONED

A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Stockholm, Keith Petersen, would not comment, saying the investigation was “in the hands of Swedish authorities.” But just what Chatty was up to was the subject of intense debate among those authorities Sunday.

Reuters quoted unnamed Swedish military intelligence officials as saying that some investigators believed Chatty, whose father is Tunisian, planned to crash the plane into a U.S. embassy in Europe and that police were looking for four other men in connection with the plan.

But other police and security officials rejected that scenario, including Linderoth. “I have never heard that the man has planned to do what you say he has,” she said. “I deny it absolutely. We are [also] not looking for four other men.”

Reuters, which said it stood by its report, quoted its sources as saying they did not believe Chatty was tied to al-Qaida. Instead, they said they believed a copycat attack was being planned.

“There is nothing to suggest that this is al-Qaida,” one of the sources said. “It’s more likely that they are some kind of ‘wannabes.’ ”

Nils Uggla, Chatty’s attorney, said Chatty “denies that this has anything at all to do with terrorism or airplane hijacking. He is deeply sorry that he caused trouble for the others who were traveling.”

Uggla would not comment on his client’s flight training.

Friends and family acknowledged that Chatty had dedicated himself to Islamic fundamentalism and sometimes spoke of jihad, or holy war, but they stressed that his conversion took place only recently, several years after he sought flight training.

In Washington, a State Department official said on condition of anonymity that U.S. embassies in Europe had not been put on higher state of alert as a result of the incident. The official gave no other details.

PRELIMINARY CHARGES

Chatty was detained without a struggle Thursday at Vaesteraas airport as he prepared to board a flight to London after police found a 6.5mm pistol, loaded with three or four rounds, in his toiletries bag.

Those aboard the Irish Ryanair aircraft, which carried more than 180 passengers, were evacuated while police searched the cabin and luggage compartment. The plane took off several hours late without Chatty and a group of 20 other people, including two children, who were bound for a Muslim conference in Birmingham, England.

Chatty was held on a preliminary charge of planning to hijack a plane. He was moved to a high-security prison and was expected to be charged Monday with hijacking or illegal possession of a firearm.

The members of the group headed to the Muslim conference, most of them in formal Arab dress, were questioned and released after investigators determined that they had no connection to Chatty, police said.

Organizers of the Muslim conference in Birmingham, hosted by the Salafi Bookstore and Islamic Center, said in a statement that they did not know Chatty and “have not had any communications with him.”

NOT A TERRORIST, ATTORNEY SAYS

Aftonbladet reported that Chatty regularly visited a mosque in Stockholm and quoted friends as saying he spoke of fighting for Islam and “wanting to be part of jihad.”

But Uggla said Chatty, a bodybuilder and former boxer, “was very much against violence” and was being unfairly portrayed because of his religion and the proximity of the anniversary of Sept. 11.

“He is Muslim, he is flying, and he has a gun, and it’s close to 11 of September,” Uggla said. “That makes people draw quick conclusions.”

Uggla also said Chatty, whose long criminal record includes convictions for theft and assault, had an explanation for why he was carrying the gun, but he said he could not be more specific because of a gag order.

U.S. officials noted, however, that Chatty’s background fit a pattern of recent arrests of alleged terrorists, NBC’s Robert Windrem reported.

Chatty’s background is similar to that of other suspected terrorists like Zacarias Moussaoui, who has been indicted as a Sept. 11 co-conspirator; Richard Reid, who is charged with trying to blow up a plane by igniting bombs in his shoes; and Nizar Nawar, the Tunisian man who carried out the suicide bombing of a synagogue on the Tunisian tourist island of Djerba. Like Chatty, those three men were drifters who became devout Muslims.

NBC’s Robert Windrem and Javier Morgada, MSNBC.com’s Alex Johnson and Michael E. Ross The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

This quote is interesting...

But Uggla said Chatty, a bodybuilder and former boxer, “was very much against violence” ...

Do you think his lawyer realizes what he's saying?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Al Qaeda, being a 'smart' and (apparently still) well funded terrorist organisation, presumably run mules around the airline network looking for 'soft' points of entry.

It is fact that they chose Stockholm and Ryanair for this hijack attempt.

Caractus

Have you passed on all your intelligence on this fact to the Swedish Authorities ??? Because they don't seem to be linking this to Al Queda. At least not publicly.

Reuters quoted unnamed Swedish military intelligence officials Saturday as saying authorities believed Chatty planned to crash the plane into a U.S. embassy in Europe and were looking for four men connected to the plan. But Linderoth flatly dismissed such speculation, calling it “false information.”


Well done to the security staff on duty, a potential bad day for aviation averted.

[TheMagus]

Trying to breach a soft target?
Possibly, but I'm quite sure these organisations know that a gun will show up in the screening. If they want to know if x-ray is used they only need to go to the airport and look at any departure.

An interesting point in the report from Reuters is that they quote a source in swedish military intelligence. The military are not involved in the investigation in any way at all, it's being conducted by the local police.
The military may, of course, be conducting their own investigation but we have rather strict laws on what the military are allowed to do in times of peace.


Regards from the land of the neurotics... :D :D :D

[bluecrane]

Two points:

1. To get a handgun past security, you have to work with the screeners, that means they have to be part of your terrorist team. Look at the screeners on your next flight. Are you sure they are all loyal and lawful? Especially on a small airport, you mighht know in advance who is working on a particular day.

2. NY times reported today, that administrative office of Chatty's flight school burned down in May, destroying all student records.
Interesting coincidence, isn't it? There means there are more of these guys, and they do not want to be found.

[SaturnV]

From the September 1 New York Times

[Excerpts related to the flight school.]

Mr. Chatty underwent training at the North American Institute of Aviation in Conway, S.C., near Myrtle Beach.

The flight school specializes in training foreign pilots, particularly students from Scandinavia, who arrive with special visas allowing them to attend school and later work in the United States. School officials go to Scandinavia every year to test and recruit potential students, according to the school's Web site.

The flight school in South Carolina opened in 1972 and has trained about 3,500 pilots over the past three decades, according to its Web site.

The school offers a six-month course that trains students to fly and work as flight instructors, the first step to obtaining a commercial pilot's license. At about $35,000 including housing, the course is considered a bargain compared to comparable European programs.

Beginning in 1997, the school was 1 of 21 in an experimental program in the southeastern states that used the Internet to report foreign students who did not show up for classes to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

Federal Bureau of Investigation agents visited the school twice after Sept. 11 during sweeps of flight schools across the country, The Sun News of Myrtle Beach reported last year. Robert Sunday, the school's chief operations officer, told The Sun News at the time that his school took extra care in admitting its students. Typically students are required to have J-1 visas, a special educational visa that requires tougher screening than a typical student visa. Mr. Sunday also said the school immediately reports students who do not show up for class.

In May, a fire destroyed the administrative offices of the school. James Lamb, an instructor at the school, said he could not be sure whether Mr. Chatty was a student because student records were destroyed in the fire.

Morgan Martin, a former state legislator from Conway who serves on the state Transportation Commission, said the school had a good reputation.

"As far as I know it is a well-respected and well-run operation," he said.
____________________________________________________
Suspect Failed Training, Flight School Official Says

By SARAH KERSHAW

CONWAY, S.C., Aug. 31 — Kerim Chatty, like many of the students who come here to the flight school at the airport to train as professional pilots, was recruited from Scandinavia, passed a written exam gaining him entrance and a visa, and began instruction in September, 1996, a top school official said tonight.

Bunking in the dormitory-style quarters on the grounds of the sprawling Conway Horry County Airport, the school's jeadquarters, Mr. Chatty, now 29, was trained to fly Cessna 152 planes, and, later, Cessna 172 planes, along with other skills. But after five months, he was dismissed from the program with no pilot's license because of "lack of progress," said Robert Sunday, executive vice-president of the school, the North American Institute of Aviation.

Mr. Sunday said there was nothing in the school records to indicate the dismissal was the result of anything other than poor performance, but he said he was still planning to speak with some instructors who were not available yesterday because of the holiday weekend.

"He did not cut the mustard," Mr. Sunday said in an interview here tonight. "He never got a license and he was let go."

Mr. Sunday said that the school then notified immigration authorities to inform them that the visa granted to Mr. Chatty
with the school's help would need to be invalidated.

When Mr. Chatty enrolled, there were no criminal background checks required of prospective students, unlike now, when, because of Sept. 11, applications are painstakingly reviewed, Mr. Sunday said.

"Did he stick out like a sore thumb?" Mr. Sunday said. "No. Are we overplaying this thing? Yes. We're close to September 11th, and this of course should be checked out, but I'm thinking of Shakespeare and `Much Ado About Nothing.' "

[Few Cloudy]

Caractacus,

re: your earlier post - why would a short turn around time make for a poor security check?

It is the aircraft and the crew who make the short turn-round - not the passengers, who have to be there as early as required by the operator/authority to undergo security checks and other forrmalities.

[PaperTiger]

Caractacus is clearly privy to information that the rest of us (and the authorities) are not.

Yesterday the Telegraph explored the angle that Chatty was 'known to police'. He appears to have a sizeable rap sheet, and is alleged to have been a minder for some Swedish criminals. Wonder if his 'client' could possibly have been on the flight too ?
Today's story, including comments from his parents (he's a nice boy etc.), does seem to reinforce the portrait of him as a wide boy.

Personally I doubt this was a (dis)organized terrorism act, just a pinball nutter. Rather disturbing to see that the minimum sentence for attempt hijack in Sweden is reportedly 6 months :mad:. Hope he gets a damn sight more than that.

[brabazon]

Having travelled through Vasteras airport myself (inbound only) and seen the facilities, I would suggest that the security there could actually be more vigilant than at a larger airport where they could easily be distracted.

The fact that it was a Ryanair flight is irrelevant from the security screening perspective.

Though it would be interesting to know when he booked his flight and how much he paid for it.

[Seriph]

Surely all that is known at this time is that this person was in possession of a gun whilst checking in for a flight. Where pray is the evidence of an intended hijack, assault upon a US embassy or indeed anything else? Once again the media and these forums are into feeding frenzy. What about waiting for a few facts to emerge? How anyone can assume, from what is known so far, that an embassy was to be targeted by a guy who had a go at a ppl six yrs ago beggars belief.

[Capt.KAOS]

1) took flying lessons 1996 with bad results, sounds suspected to me, because no need to have a license to act as a kamikaze

2) got to know fundamentalist muslims during this flying course

3) tried another flying school in Florida 1998, but left because of a "sore neck"... and lived not far from Atta's place...

4) A certain Kassir (known as hitman for Bin Laden) was his mentor and was instrumental in his conversion to Islam.

5) During 9/11 Chatty was attending "a religious school in Saudi Arabia", such a coincident.

Too many "coincidents" to be a coincident....

CaPt.KaOs


PS we all must be aware of the fact that possible hijackers might read this message board too....

[Seriph]

Obviously no need for any 'evidence' or trial then!

[Check 6]

Capt. KAOS, I think that Chatty should live with Seriph while he is on bail pending trial.
:D :D :D

[Whiskey Zulu]

A300Man & Mark D:

Look up irony in the dictionary and take a chill pill :D

[Steepclimb]

How come no matter how serious the topic there's always some dimwit or two who posts some childish and stupid comment. You people need to look at yourselves in the mirror and think about what kind of person you are.

Caractus you are one of those people, your implication that Swedish/Irish security is not as good as British is idiotic considering that Swedish security caught the man.

That aside, it seems that Chatty, is trying to distance himself from the idea of it being an attempted hijack. News footage shows he's shaved off his beard and no doubt his 'explanation' for having the gun will be so very plausible.

But there can be little doubt he intended to hijack the aeroplane. The question in my mind is whether he had any comrades among the other passengers. Certainly not all the other 20 Moslems on board would have been involved. One or two perhaps, being unarmed they would have passed through without difficulty.

But his attempt was always doomed to failure. Even if the hijack succeeded. Even if the passengers and crew sat like sheep knowing that they were about to die. Would you??? Even if he somehow took conrol of the aircraft he could not avoid the fighters sent to intercept. Where would he have gone? The suggestion that he intended to crash into a US embassy is ridiculous. As any pilot knows pinpointing a building in a city is difficult let alone hitting it.

He could have crashed it more or less randomly, but all that would have achieved would be to kill at least 20 Muslims, and an assortment of Swedes, Irish and British.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that he was a lone nutter trying to prove a point. Like the shoe bomber he's a loser who found religion. He's also a failed pilot. There is none so bitter as a failed pilot who's found religion. Now he could go out in a blaze of glory as seen by certain elements. Luckily being a complete loser like the shoe bomber he failed in that too.

He may of had help but any intelligent peson would have told him the odds of getting a gun through security these days is slim. I daresay he had the blessing of some people but little practical help. He only had three rounds of ammunition, no doubt the might of Al Qaeda might run to a full magazine.

No he was a loser with a mission. There are parallels, in western culture, gunmen as in Columbine or Dunblane go out in what are effectively suicide missions. They kill as many as they can before being killed themselves. They pretty much fit the profile too. Losers with something to prove.

What all this does highlight is that security must remain high, with profiling. We are always going to be prey to the lone fundamentalist with something to prove. We can expect more attempts in the future. The nightmare is that one succeeds and an aircraft is either destroyed by fighters or crashes as a result of the crew being incapacitated. This can happen anywhere in the world at any time.

I would be surprised if there wasn't another attempt this year. I would bet money that it won't happen in America either. We all need to stay vigilant.

[Check 6]

Identifying a building or landmark from the air is not that difficult. It requires a little research and planning. Aerial photos will help, as does hiring a C-172 and flying it over a target location for practice.

And hitting a building? Well, some terrorists found the WTC and the Pentagon without getting lost!!

[Capt.KAOS]

Hire a C-172? What about buying MS Flight Simulator? Latest releases are known to be like the real thing.....

cAPt.kAOs

[Steepclimb]

Kaos I refer you to my first paragraph, it applies to you. Find a mirror now.
Check six, well you should know better than that. Why do you think they chose those particular targets? Chatty would be lucky to find a city let alone a building. Canary wharf might be the most obvious target. Do you really think a failed PPL would get close enough even to that landmark.

On another point for those of you who like to say 'I'm not anti American but.......' If he had hit London or Stockholm or wherever. Would you glibly say 'The Brits/Swedes had it coming' or any of the other stupid comments people have come out with in the last year?

[Check 6]

Steepclimb, I beg to differ with you.

The low lifes who flew the airlines on 11/9 did not have pilot's licenses!! So a PPL is not capable of committing a similar mass murder??

If you do not believe the targets on 11/9 were the WTC and the Pentagon, you need to get outside more.

If you believe that a PPL could not find an American Embassy in Europe by air, you need to get outside more.

Finding locations/landmarks/prominent buildings by air is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. This is not speculation on my part. I flew surveillance aircraft for twenty-one years.


:( :( :(

[PaperTiger]

I seriously doubt (ie. don't believe) that a PPL could single-handedly commandeer a 737, find a comparatively small and undistinguished building in a European capital and hit it dead on. Even if he was allowed to attempt to do so unchallenged.

wrt Sept 11, the WTC was an unmistakeable target, identifiable for miles. Even then, the second 767 had to be put into a desperate last-second bank to avoid sailing right by. The 757 hit the parking lot and bounced into the Pentagon, not what I would call a direct hit. If you've seen the Pentagon from the air, you'll appreciate that it was a p*ss-poor shot.

It is understandable that news reports were initially rife with speculation and conjecture. Personally, unattributable quotes and anonymous sources who 'claim' this or 'believe' that don't carry much weight. The two people who did put their names to their words were the Swedish Police Chief, who essentially said 'bollox' to the early reports, and the Judge who decided there was no evidence (as yet) of anything other than CCW.

The media now seems to have toned down the hyperbole and rhetoric as more information (actually no more information) becomes available. Suggest we do the same until something a bit more tangible emerges one way or the other.

[Steepclimb]

Check six your answer puzzles me so. This is the lazy way but:

The low lifes who flew the airlines on 11/9 did not have pilot's licenses!! So a PPL is not capable of committing a similar mass murder??
Don't quite get your point but the licence is irrelevant. Training and preparation is. I think you might understand that given your profession. Nothing has come forward about further flying by him since '96 or '97. I don't think he would be capable of finding his way anywhere on his own in a glass cockpit airliner somewhere over Europe at 300 kts or more. FS2002 practice or not.

If you do not believe the targets on 11/9 were the WTC and the Pentagon, you need to get outside more.
Again I don't get your point. I do believe the targets were the WTC and the Pentagon with, again my opinion, flight 93 being intended for the White House. Precisely because they are very prominent buildings and obvious from the air once in the vicinity. What on earth brought you to the conclusion that I believed they weren't the targets? Maybe I should get out more but you should learn to read read better.


If you believe that a PPL could not find an American Embassy in Europe by air, you need to get outside more.
I do believe a PPL could find an American embassy eventually in a light aircraft. But flying a 737 for the first time? Just how big and obvious do you think US embassies are? The hijackers on flight 93 seem to have been lost at least for some of the time despite all their preparation.


Finding locations/landmarks/prominent buildings by air is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. This is not speculation on my part. I flew surveillance aircraft for twenty-one years.
Not for you and me perhaps, I've been flying for twenty years but in the early days I was dam glad to find the town where the airport was situated. I remember flying over my house for the first time. It was hard to get orientated even though there was a huge and distinctive church right beside it.

This guy was a failed pilot and a failure in any number of other ways even when it came to getting on an aeroplane with a gun. He had no hope of success whatsoever.

[Capt.KAOS]

Well sleepclimb, I’m sorry I’ve abused your delicate (licensed) eyes. You might elaborated a bit more on my as you call, stupid comments, instead of salivate pitty brain farts?

For instance, it’s a known fact that most of the 9/11 terrorists were only interested in steering the planes and not at all in any other stuff, like landings et all.

The problem is that, most Western people grossly underestimate these terrorists. Who ever thought 9/11 could ever happen for real? According the flight pattern the White House was the first target but the Pentagon got hit, for whatever reason. Actually it doesn’t really matter. It’s about lifes of innocent people aboard and on the ground whatever target is hit.

It’s my firm believe that it WAS a hijack and possibly a ground target WAS the mission, THAT’s what worries me. The main remaining question now is: was it a copycat or was it a organised action with multiple people.

CAPT. kaos

PS When I look in the mirror I see a handsome man. Not so sure about you, if you’re ugly as you sound.

[crabby]

Rananim

quote "Maybe you'd be a little more understanding of just what the US has suffered this last year(or decade for those with short memories) and not so quick to criticize what has to be done in this war of survival.Its either them or us.You choose.But dont whinge or utter platitudes whilst you're sitting on the fence making up your mind. "


So you never donated to NORAID then ? & if u didn't who did !!

[peterbuckstolemymeds]

Capt KAOS, sorry to take issue with you (particularly in view of Steepclimb's previous er, postings, ahem) but this voodoo about 9/11 hijackers as students not wanting to take off and land aircraft really needs to be debunked.

The US media somehow attached this as a footnote to the Moussaoui story (not the other 'jackers). And it's absolutely untrue. If you were one of these cunning sobs, would you walk into a flight traing school and say what Moussaoui is supposed to have? It'd be red flag central. Of course that didn't happen.

Moussaoui was actually the subject of an FBI tip-off because of his aberrant behavior in the school. Aberrant behavior which, of course, continues to this day and would seem to indicate that he's not flying on full tanks IMHO. ("I'm not pleading," Alahu Akbar "I'm guilty" Alahu Akbar "I'm innocent" Alahu Akbar "I want to address Congress" etc etc.).

I have no idea whether or not this bloke was supposed to be the twentieth hijacker... he has cheerfully admitted to taking a little training and an oath of alliegance to UBL but - were I mohamed atta, I wouldn't want a lose cannon like that in the team.

Incidentally, the Senate's Commerce & Transportation Commitee quizzed the Transport Secretary about this on May 21 this year and he confirmed that Moussaoui did want to learn how to take off and land. This wasn't well publicized (who wants to let the facts..., etc) but you will find it accurately reported in the nytimes of May 22 under a headline titled 'Transport boss doesn't want guns in the cockpit."

Again, sorry Cap'n. No disrecpect intended.

By the way, Steepclimb's a bit of a winker, innhe?

:cool:

[Check 6]

Lead, follow, or get out of the way!

;) ;) ;)

[Capt.KAOS]

pbsmm: appreciate your input, sir. actually I remembered an interview with the dutch owner of the Venice flightschool here on the local network, in which he was talking about most of the terrorist being mediocre at best.

guess we'll know more in a week or 2.

re your last conclusion about steeplimb, couldn't agree with you more, I pitty his dog.

peace

Capt.KAOS

[brabazon]

Does this item, not illustrate the potential difference between screening at a large airport such as Heathrow compared to success at Vasteras:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2238338.stm

[Capt PPRuNe]

All that article shows is that there is a difference between a person with no murderous intent carrying an offensive pair of scissors or nail clippers and an person with murderous intent carrying the same items. Precisely why profiling is so much more important. The X-ray machine should be the 'last resort' not the 'only' resort.

It's not the scissors that do the damage, it's the person using them. According to the DoT and the CAA, even our parents, kids, brothers or sisters are not to be trusted. As usual, those who make the rules often have very little practical experience to apply to their most often flawed decisions. More likely a desire to 'please' their minister in charge with a cheap soundbite opportunity.
:rolleyes:

[411A]

Quite right Captain P....'tis called political expediency, and it stinks.

[Seriph]

We are running around like headless chickens intent upon locking the stable door when the horse has bolted. All we are doing is making life difficult for ourselves and passengers and thus damaging the industry. Absolute security is impossible at an airport, plastic items will always get through x ray machines including replica guns. It is almost certain that methods of 9/11 will not be repeated, to difficult, so other means will be researched, perhaps we should be looking into those. Meanwhile, reporters who want to emulate terrorists should be prosecuted.

[Steepclimb]

Agree with the last three posts. The same method of attack is unlikely to be repeated by an oganised group. The embittered loner might try it though and that has to guarded against.

On another point, I'm sorry to say my point about stupid and childish posts in the most serious of subjects has been proved again. I enjoy all the name calling and I can give as good as I get, in JETBLAST. That's the place for it.

[DX Wombat]

Capt K et al. Do you really think there is NO possibility of coincidences? Try this:
"Took flying lessons" - I am learning Navigation, I have no flying qualifications.
I am also trying to obtain my Radio Amateurs Licence
"Got to know fundamentalist Muslims" - so do I.
"Lived not far from Atta's place"- I live about a mile from what was the Yorkshire Ripper's home
"Attended a religious school" so did I.
Now the answers: I am learning Navigation because I will be taking part in the Outback Air Race next year and want to be of some help. Amateur Radio is something in which I have been interested since I was little and have only just had the chance to explore further. I was as shocked as anyone to find that Peter Sutcliffe lived so near - particularly in light of his statement that his next intended victim was to be a nurse. I work in a hospital with a large number of Muslim staff and patients so I come into contact with them on a daily basis. The hospital is even neare to Sutcliffe's former home. I even knew one of the people involved in the Bradford riots. I attended a religious school - all through my schooldays in fact. So what does that make me? A religious lunatic intent on murdering Australians during the Ouback Air Race? Certainly not, I'm taking part for the fun of it.

[Capt.KAOS]

Wombat, did you also carry a gun in your hand luggage? You might consider to change your nic into another ozzie animal; ostrich and put your head in the sand.

steepclimb, you think you have a monopoly on flaming here? you remind me of a brat who's running to his mother when he is paid back after kicking someone, pls do grow up....... :(

Capt.KAOS

[DX Wombat]

Capt K now you are just being silly. None of us has all the facts. The people who have the most facts are the Swedish Prosecution services. It is not always what you read in the newspapers which is important, what you do not read is just as, and indeed sometimes more, important. You are doing just what others on here complain about when the press reports an aviation item inaccurately - you are reading things into what has been written. Some of what has been said in the press may, or may not be true and accurate. It may be another case of the press sensationalising things. The point I am trying to make is that it is easy to jump to conclusions when you are in possesion of some, but not all of the facts. As I said in a previous post on this thread, I am just pleased that another lethal weapon has been removed from circulation before someone else was hurt or killed.
Oh, and by the way, I am not so stupid that I think an ostrich is a native Australian bird.

[Roadtrip]

It never ceases to amaze me how many "useful fools" there are in Europe.

Let's see . . . Tunisian background, recent convert to islam, took flying lessons but was thrown out of school for gross ineptitude, loser with criminal background including weapons charges . . . shows up on an airplane flight with a firearm and no plausible explanation.

I've heard enough.

And now the Germans don't want to release crucial information to the US because Moussaui may face capital punishment.

Nice to know who your friends really are.

[MarkD]

http://breaking.tcm.ie/2002/09/30/story70425.html

Swedish hijack suspect released from jail
30/09/2002 - 9:47:56 am

A man accused of planning to hijack a London-bound airliner last month was released from custody in Sweden today.

But prosecutors said the investigation would continue into why the suspect had a gun in his hand luggage when he tried to board the Ryanair flight.

Kerim Chatty, 29, was being held on suspicion of planning a hijacking and illegal possession of a weapon.

Chief prosecutor Thomas Haeggstroem had until today to prepare formal charges.

Haeggstroem said there was not enough evidence to continue holding Chatty on the hijacking charge, but the investigation would continue.

“In the last days the suspicions against Kerim Chatty have been weakened and there no longer are probable grounds for the suspicion of planning to hijack,” the prosecutor said.

Chatty, whose father is Tunisian and mother is Swedish, spent four weeks in jail after security officials at a regional airport in Vaesteraas, 60 miles northwest of the capital Stockholm, found a gun in his carry-on luggage on August 29.

He admitted that he had the gun but pleaded not guilty to the hijacking charge.

Chatty told police he was part of a group of people going to an Islamic conference in Birmingham.