PDA

View Full Version : Calling all grandfathers re AFI->FI


PeeToo
18th Feb 2023, 13:05
Can anyone tell me the old (CAP54?) minimum instructional hours required for upgrade from AFI to FI?
This pertains to the CAA having previously seen evidence that I had the requisite number of hours at that time and therefore that my licence re-issue should have contained privileges (e) under the FI certificate
Obviously I can show I have the hours anyway by logbook evidence but it seems they will now seek a further 96 from me to amend it!
Thanks

awair
18th Feb 2023, 18:02
I think it was 200 hours, and also having passed the Instrument Instructor add on.

Don’t have a copy of CAP 53/54 any more.

MrAverage
19th Feb 2023, 16:37
Sounds right to my memory

Whopity
19th Feb 2023, 18:16
There were four requirements to upgrade from AFI to FI

CAP 54 -To qualify for the grant of a FI Rating (Aeroplanes)the applicant will be required to:

1. Have obtained not less than 400 hours experience as PIC of aeroplanes incl: uding 200 hours as an instructor on aeroplanes.

2. To have been a AFI or military QFI for a period of at least 6 months

3. If an AFI to have qualified for the removal of the no applied Instrument instruction restriction.

Where an AFI rating is issued with a restriction on applied instrument flying instruction the rating holder may qualify for removal of the restriction by completing additional training and passing a further flight test and ground examination conducted by an FIE. The additional training must include not less than 15 hours of ground training and 7 hours of flying raining, and it must be carried out at an approved FTO iunder a FIC Instructor. Holders of an AFI rating granted prior to 1 August 1987 are required to carry out 20 hours of ground training and 10 hours of flight training for removal of the restriction.

4. Applicants for a FI Rating will be required to pass a Flight Test and Ground Examination conducted by an FIE

Fl1ingfrog
19th Feb 2023, 18:21
We no longer have AFIs nor is there a requirement to hold an instrument rating (IMC or IR). No longer is there a requirement for an unrestricted FI to qualify to teach applied instrument flying (IMC or IR) before applying for the restriction to be removed.

Todays FI(r) before the restriction is removed (there is no upgrade) is required to have sent students supervised solo (not first solos) on 25 occasions and have totalled at least 100 hours of instructing.

Whopity
19th Feb 2023, 19:24
The question was looking for a historical answer from CAP54."Can anyone tell me the old (CAP54?)"

Fl1ingfrog
19th Feb 2023, 20:46
Yes, and Whopity you answered that for him comprehensively. But reading between the lines Pee Too hadn't attended a course to teach applied instruments nor had he been assessed by an FI Examiner to teach that. He hadn't undertaken an upgrade test either. Subject to him having the current required experience then obtaining the removal of the (r) etc for 96 is a bargain.

PeeToo
21st Feb 2023, 10:50
Yes, and Whopity you answered that for him comprehensively. But reading between the lines Pee Too hadn't attended a course to teach applied instruments nor had he been assessed by an FI Examiner to teach that. He hadn't undertaken an upgrade test either. Subject to him having the current required experience then obtaining the removal of the (r) etc for 96 is a bargain.

I'm not sure about reading between the lines. Just reading what I actually wrote might be a start? Never mentioned removal of (r) - its all about (e)

Wrong on all counts! My bad for not explaining more fully maybe!
I have just renewed by FI having previously held an FI under the old system. Yes i did the upgrade from AFI to FI including instrument.
On neither the renewal application online form, nor the guidance notes, does the CAA mention anywhere the need to specifically request the (e) endorsement for instructing for a CPL
The only additional requirement to FI cert - as things stand today - for that endorsement is 200 hrs instructional time
Assuming Whoppity is correct (thanks for the answer) then at the time I upgraded from AFI to FI, I must have submitted logbook evidence of that 200hrs instructional time or the CAA would not have upgraded me.
Therefore it is a matter of record that I was already qualified for the (e) endorsement
However the new licence (cost 96) was issued without it
They now want another 96 to re-issue it with that endorsement added

Please tell me how that is a bargain?

Whopity
21st Feb 2023, 15:12
Regulation 6 appeal. They have failed to issue a rating to which you are entitled.

Fl1ingfrog
21st Feb 2023, 17:45
Can anyone tell me the old (CAP54?) minimum instructional hours required for upgrade from AFI to FI?

I couldn't understand why you introduced the above if the question was only to do with the (e). Are you assuming that they will charge you or have the CAA told you so in writing? If they have told you in writing then an appeal as Whopity has suggested is the next option. I'm sure you will succeed.

I wish you well.

PeeToo
24th Feb 2023, 09:21
I couldn't understand why you introduced the above if the question was only to do with the (e). Are you assuming that they will charge you or have the CAA told you so in writing? If they have told you in writing then an appeal as Whopity has suggested is the next option. I'm sure you will succeed.

I wish you well.

because the fact I did the upgrade and got the full rating is indicative that the CAA already had received my evidence of the 200hrs instructional time that is (now) required for issue of (e). In other words they knew that I was qualified for (e) when they renewed my FI cert

Thanks for Input and the good wishes.

PeeToo
3rd Mar 2023, 14:30
Final Score: CAA 1: PeeToo 0,

For reference this is what they said:Thank you for your email.

Prior to the introduction of EASA Part FCL in 2012, individual training schools gave privileges to instructors to provide CPL Training. When pilots submitted their applications to convert to an EASA licence with us, there was a box on the application form for pilots to annotate the Flight instructor privileges they held. If a pilot had annotated they had CPL instructing privileges, we would have then asked them to provide the evidence from the training provider. This would then have been completed as part of the conversion process. I have reviewed your conversion application and confirm that you did not tick the CPL instruction privilege box.

We would therefore have presumed that you did not hold these privileges. To enable us to endorse CPL instructing privileges now, you would need to submit an application for a variation of your instructor rating, using the online application form, within the attached webpage and selecting the variation option Online applications for instructor privileges | Civil Aviation Authority (caa.co.uk) (https://www.caa.co.uk/commercial-industry/pilot-licences/instructors-and-examiners/instructor-certificates/online-applications-for-instructor-privileges/). We will also require logbook evidence that you have 200 hours of flight instruction in the category or written confirmation for your previous training school that they had given you CPL instructing privileges. Please accept my apologies if this was not fully clarified in our previous emails.

Kind Regards
X Technical LeadFlight Crew Licensing
So basically, whether you apply for the (e)privileges at the time your FI rating is being renewed, or not, you will still have to pay 96 for it, unless you were previously on record as having been a CPL instructor under the old system

Whopity
27th May 2023, 07:49
Its just the CAA making money. The regulation states the privileges of an instructor based upon certain levels of experience. The UK CAA chose to issue the letters that define those levels; this does not constitute a variation only confirmation of the privileges, but any excuse to charge another 96 is fair game. Other States don't use the letters!