Diversions after fire in JFK terminal

[WHBM]

Quite some coverage about diversions after a fire at JFK Terminal 1 closed it. It seems quite a number of inbounds, the Air New Zealand one only being the most notable, were turned round mid-flight and returned to base.

Angry passenger reaction after Air New Zealand flight to US turned back - NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/air-new-zealand-passenger-aboard-returned-auckland-new-york-flight-some-people-are-kicking-off/ALJIHAN5ZFAL3L6KW3CV2AXN6I/)

Apparently the Auckland to JFK nonstop was between Hawaii and California when news of the JFK Terminal 1 (not airport) closure came through, and it returned to Auckland. Not diverted to anywhere else in the USA, such as LAX where Air NZ have a considerable operation, nor anywhere else. It wasn't the only one. Some European flights turned back mid-Atlantic to Europe as well.

One has to ask what happened to the official Alternates as filed on the flight plans. Are they in practice not practical or available, and if so are they entered on flight plans as a fiction ?

And what is it about US aviation that makes it impossible for airports to handle diversions if they are not from a regular carrier there ? Absence of handling agents, or other carriers who can do the handling, as in the rest of the world.

[atakacs]

I muss say that the 16h Auckland flight to nowhere is baffling. What's the rationale ??

[andrasz]

I muss say that the 16h Auckland flight to nowhere is baffling. What's the rationale ??
Just guessing, but probably some beancounter did the maths and figured out the additional cost of accommodating and rerouting all the pax from LAX, flying back empty (as NY departing pax would have already been accommodated on other flights), plus the rollover effect of not getting the plane back in time due to returning crew and plane not being in the same place. Probably the decision was the least costly for the airline, and likely caused inconvenience to the fewest number of passengers.

[wiggy]

One has to ask what happened to the official Alternates as filed on the flight plans. Are they in practice not practical or available, and if so are they entered on flight plans as a fiction ?



As I recall it as much as anything if the weather forecast was OK what gets entered is whatever is required from a legal POV (fuel planning purposes)...

In reality if something hits the fan at destination and you have plenty of warning it might be best to consult with mission control and go somewhere that can actually process x00 international passengers and all that goes with it.

[Bergerie1]

There are a lot more things that need to be taken into account than just the flying. Such things as the weather, the availablity of crews, accomodation, onward connections, handling resources, aircraft itineraries and availability, etc. etc. to say nothing of the expense. The crew only know part of the story, and the passengers even less. The best sources of advice will come from the airline's operations control function.

Those of us who do not know all the details should not sit in judgement!

[Hartington]

Following recent weather "events" in New Zealand, Auckland airport was flooded. I wonder if the particular New Zealand response is in any way related. Particularly the passenger(s) reported to be "boiling with rage"?

[pattern_is_full]

Given the mess SWA had when they were caught "out of position" by a winter storm around Christmas, I guess I can understand ANZ's call.

But these situations always remind me of the Marx Brothers (Chico specifically) masquerading as the "famous Italian pilots" in Night at the Opera.

"We get halfway across (the Atlantic) - an' we run outta gasolina. So we have to go back and get more gas.
The next time, we take twice as much gasolina, and we almosta make it; maybe three feet. And whaddya think happen - we run outta gasolin' again, an' we gotta go back.
The third time, we take off and get halfway, and whaddya think? We forgetta da aeroplane.....
So we sit down and thinkaboudit, ana we decide. We no take aeroplane, we no take gasolina - we taka da steamship. And dat is how we fly to America!"

[Sailvi767]

Quite some coverage about diversions after a fire at JFK Terminal 1 closed it. It seems quite a number of inbounds, the Air New Zealand one only being the most notable, were turned round mid-flight and returned to base.

Angry passenger reaction after Air New Zealand flight to US turned back - NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/air-new-zealand-passenger-aboard-returned-auckland-new-york-flight-some-people-are-kicking-off/ALJIHAN5ZFAL3L6KW3CV2AXN6I/)


One has to ask what happened to the official Alternates as filed on the flight plans. Are they in practice not practical or available, and if so are they entered on flight plans as a fiction ?

And what is it about US aviation that makes it impossible for airports to handle diversions if they are not from a regular carrier there ? Absence of handling agents, or other carriers who can do the handling, as in the rest of the world.

The US system is extremely flexible. You can divert basically anywhere you want. The decisions you mention were almost certainly made by the respective airlines operational control centers and had zero to do with US air traffic control.
The article you quoted clearly points that out so I don’t understand why you jumped on US ATC.

[Loose rivets]

EDIT. It smacks of 9-11, and dare I say it? Balloons. No, I don't dare say it.

[Fun_police]

What happened in 1911?

[AerocatS2A]

If you get to your destination and for some reason you can’t land there, then a close alternate is a fine place to go, no problems (compared to running out of fuel and crashing somewhere). If you get halfway to your destination and you can’t land there, you have a lot of options open to you. It should come as no surprise that the company will choose an option that minimises disruption overall even though that might increase the disruption experienced by those immediately affected.

Emirates did something similar recently when Auckland airport closed due flooding. A “14 hour flight to nowhere” as the headlines put it.

[capricorn23]

I completely agree with you... it seems that for some airlines the concept of "destination alternate airports" has no more meaning (except Emirates, in this case), unless there are other reasons that we ignore... the pax won't be too much positively impressed by losing so much time for a flight departing and arriving at same airport...it's seems really all very curious... maybe we might soon learn new flight operations "philosophies".

[ex-EGLL]

it's seems really all very curious... maybe we might soon learn new flight operations "philosophies".
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/350x219/animation_bean_counter_53d9c28f0e9183ac9d5f081fb5f916f75606a f7c.gif

[capricorn23]

They can use whatever "philosophy" want but should not get surprised and... offended... if the "customer is the king" makes then a different airline choice after having been abused in that way. I won't be surprised either.

[punkalouver]

What happened in 1911?

How quickly people forget.....Top News Stories from 1911World EventsWorld StatisticsPopulation: 4.378 billion

Nobel Peace Prize: (https://www.infoplease.com/history-and-government/biographies-presidents/william-howard-taft) Tobias M. C. Asser (Holland) and Alfred H. Fried (Austria)



First use of aircraft as offensive weapon occurs in Turkish-Italian War. Italy (https://www.infoplease.com/world/countries-world/italy-0) defeats Turks (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/cultures/other/turks) and annexes Libya (https://www.infoplease.com/world/countries-world/libya-0).
Chinese Republic proclaimed after revolution overthrows Manchu (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/cultures/other/manchu) dynasty. Sun Yat-sen (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/history/greater-china/sun-yatsen) named president. Background: Chinese Dynasties (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/asia-africa/china-mongolia/chinese-dynasties-table).
Mexican Revolution: Porfirio Diaz (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/bios/mexico/diaz-porfirio), president since 1877, replaced by Francisco Madero (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/bios/mexico/madero-francisco-indalecio).
Roald Amundsen (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/history/explore-conquer/amundsen-roald) becomes first man to reach South Pole (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/places/other/antarctica/south-pole).
U.S. explorer Hiram Bingham (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/religion/christian/protestant-bios/bingham-hiram-1789-1869-american-congregationalist-missionary) discovers Incan city of Machu Picchu (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/cultures/archaeology/machu-picchu).

U.S. EventsU.S. StatisticsPresident: William H. Taft (https://www.infoplease.com/history-and-government/biographies-presidents/william-howard-taft)
Vice President: James S. Sherman (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/history/us/sherman-james-schoolcraft/)
Population: 93,863,000

Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire in New York; 146 killed. Background: Fires and Explosions (https://www.infoplease.com/disasters/man-made/fires-and-explosions)
Supreme Court finds Standard Oil Company (May 15) and American Tobacco Company (May 29) to be in violation of Sherman Antitrust Act (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/north-america/us/sherman-antitrust-act).

EconomicsFederal spending: $0.69 billion
Unemployment: 6.7%
Cost of a first-class stamp: $0.02SportsWorld SeriesPhiladelphia A's d. NY Giants (4-2)Stanley CupOttawa SenatorsWimbledonWomen: Dorothea Chambers d. D. Boothby (6-0 6-0)
Men: Tony Wilding d. R. Barrett (6-4 4-6 2-6 6-2 (ret))Kentucky Derby ChampionMeridianNCAA Football ChampionsPrinceton (CFRA, HF) (8-0-2) & Penn St. (NCF) (8-0-1)EntertainmentEntertainment AwardsNobel Prize for Literature: Maurice Maeterlinck (Belgium)Events

The first feature film is released when the two reels of D.W. Griffith's (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/arts/performing/film-tv-bios/griffith-d-w) Enoch Arden are screened together.


ScienceNobel Prizes in ScienceChemistry: (https://www.infoplease.com/year/1911#) Marie Curie (France), for discovery of elements radium and polonium
Physics: (https://www.infoplease.com/year/1911#) Wilhelm Wien (Germany), for his laws governing the radiation of heat
Physiology or Medicine: (https://www.infoplease.com/year/1911#) Allvar Gullstrand (Sweden), for work on the dioptrics of the eye
More Nobel Prizes in 1998... (https://www.infoplease.com/awards/nobel/1998-nobel-prize-winners)

British physicist Ernest Rutherford (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/bios/physics/rutherford-ernest) discovers the structure of an atom (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/physics/concepts/atom).
American geneticist Thomas Morgan (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/bios/genetics/morgan-thomas-hunt) shows that inherited factors are represented by genes placed at specific sites along a chromosome.

[WHBM]

If you get halfway to your destination and you can’t land there, you have a lot of options open to you. It should come as no surprise that the company will choose an option that minimises disruption overall even though that might increase the disruption experienced by those immediately affected.
The two however are not comparable. Firstly it should not be beyond the carriers ability to handle this at their alternate, and I trust the New Zealand CAA will be asking just how realistic and capable the filed alternate is, If the flight had been a few hours further on, and beyond return endurance, what then ? Secondly the additional, unrecoverable costs imposed on such passengers are considerable, hotel reservations which nowadays are mostly non-refundable, etc. And when you get back and look at rebooking, apart from being knackered you find the next days' flights are full because you are now very firmly put at the back of the queue. Trip lost.

I recall long ago being associated with the first JFK-Tokyo nonstops. Because of the large reserves required for such a long flight putting it slightly beyond range it was filed initially to Anchorage, alternate Fairbanks, and then when overhead Alaska and the numbers still looked good for Japan, was refiled from the air for Tokyo, alternate Osaka. All within the rules, but there was very considerable examination of all four points for capability etc. I think if it was noted by Alaska that a stop was needed, which would have involved a crew change, and it was therefore to be turned round back to JFK, the authorities would have been down like a ton of bricks.

[AerocatS2A]

I think you’re barking up the wrong tree to be honest. I don’t know the details of why it was better to return to Auckland than use a US alternate, but the decision in no way implies that a domestic alternate isn’t suitable, it just means that given a range of options a return to departure was chosen as the better one. It was presumably better logistically to handle it from Air NZ’s main crewing base rather than end up out of position in the states with a crew needing a couple of days rest. Have you never diverted or even carried fuel for a more distant alternate because it was more convenient than the nearest suitable?

[Fun_police]

How quickly people forget.....Top News Stories from 1911World EventsWorld StatisticsPopulation: 4.378 billion

Nobel Peace Prize: (https://www.infoplease.com/history-and-government/biographies-presidents/william-howard-taft) Tobias M. C. Asser (Holland) and Alfred H. Fried (Austria)



First use of aircraft as offensive weapon occurs in Turkish-Italian War. Italy (https://www.infoplease.com/world/countries-world/italy-0) defeats Turks (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/cultures/other/turks) and annexes Libya (https://www.infoplease.com/world/countries-world/libya-0).
Chinese Republic proclaimed after revolution overthrows Manchu (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/cultures/other/manchu) dynasty. Sun Yat-sen (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/history/greater-china/sun-yatsen) named president. Background: Chinese Dynasties (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/asia-africa/china-mongolia/chinese-dynasties-table).
Mexican Revolution: Porfirio Diaz (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/bios/mexico/diaz-porfirio), president since 1877, replaced by Francisco Madero (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/bios/mexico/madero-francisco-indalecio).
Roald Amundsen (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/history/explore-conquer/amundsen-roald) becomes first man to reach South Pole (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/places/other/antarctica/south-pole).
U.S. explorer Hiram Bingham (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/religion/christian/protestant-bios/bingham-hiram-1789-1869-american-congregationalist-missionary) discovers Incan city of Machu Picchu (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/cultures/archaeology/machu-picchu).

U.S. EventsU.S. StatisticsPresident: William H. Taft (https://www.infoplease.com/history-and-government/biographies-presidents/william-howard-taft)
Vice President: James S. Sherman (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/history/us/sherman-james-schoolcraft/)
Population: 93,863,000

Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire in New York; 146 killed. Background: Fires and Explosions (https://www.infoplease.com/disasters/man-made/fires-and-explosions)
Supreme Court finds Standard Oil Company (May 15) and American Tobacco Company (May 29) to be in violation of Sherman Antitrust Act (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/north-america/us/sherman-antitrust-act).

EconomicsFederal spending: $0.69 billion
Unemployment: 6.7%
Cost of a first-class stamp: $0.02SportsWorld SeriesPhiladelphia A's d. NY Giants (4-2)Stanley CupOttawa SenatorsWimbledonWomen: Dorothea Chambers d. D. Boothby (6-0 6-0)
Men: Tony Wilding d. R. Barrett (6-4 4-6 2-6 6-2 (ret))Kentucky Derby ChampionMeridianNCAA Football ChampionsPrinceton (CFRA, HF) (8-0-2) & Penn St. (NCF) (8-0-1)EntertainmentEntertainment AwardsNobel Prize for Literature: Maurice Maeterlinck (Belgium)Events

The first feature film is released when the two reels of D.W. Griffith's (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/arts/performing/film-tv-bios/griffith-d-w) Enoch Arden are screened together.


ScienceNobel Prizes in ScienceChemistry: (https://www.infoplease.com/year/1911#) Marie Curie (France), for discovery of elements radium and polonium
Physics: (https://www.infoplease.com/year/1911#) Wilhelm Wien (Germany), for his laws governing the radiation of heat
Physiology or Medicine: (https://www.infoplease.com/year/1911#) Allvar Gullstrand (Sweden), for work on the dioptrics of the eye
More Nobel Prizes in 1998... (https://www.infoplease.com/awards/nobel/1998-nobel-prize-winners)

British physicist Ernest Rutherford (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/bios/physics/rutherford-ernest) discovers the structure of an atom (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/physics/concepts/atom).
American geneticist Thomas Morgan (https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/bios/genetics/morgan-thomas-hunt) shows that inherited factors are represented by genes placed at specific sites along a chromosome.



Thanks!

😄😄

[WHBM]

I think you’re barking up the wrong tree to be honest. I don’t know the details of why it was better to return to Auckland than use a US alternate, but the decision in no way implies that a domestic alternate isn’t suitable, it just means that given a range of options a return to departure was chosen as the better one. It was presumably better logistically to handle it from Air NZ’s main crewing base rather than end up out of position in the states with a crew needing a couple of days rest. Have you never diverted or even carried fuel for a more distant alternate because it was more convenient than the nearest suitable?
But the return crew already in JFK didn't necessarily need a couple of days rest if the flight, for example, had diverted to Philadelphia, 130 miles away by domestic flight which were all still running, or even by taxi. The outbound crew in New York could have positioned down, possibly with just 24 hours delay.

Furthermore, the flight was carrying a full deadhead tech/cabin crew (as ops were reminded by the pilots). Presumably them ending up back at base has caused a further major dislocation to a return flight at some stage.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Those of us who do not know all the details should not sit in judgement!

I’ve never heard such tosh in all my life. Where the hell is the fun in that?

[Loose rivets]

What happened in 1911? Doh! :\ But I still think we're not being told. The decisions to mosey back from whence they came seems oddly universal.

That expression sticks in my mind from an American in the early 60's, flying something with a lot of engines, was defeated by NW European weather. His laconic reply to ATC was, I guess we'll mosey back to Texas.

[AerocatS2A]

But the return crew already in JFK didn't necessarily need a couple of days rest if the flight, for example, had diverted to Philadelphia, 130 miles away by domestic flight which were all still running, or even by taxi. The outbound crew in New York could have positioned down, possibly with just 24 hours delay.

Furthermore, the flight was carrying a full deadhead tech/cabin crew (as ops were reminded by the pilots). Presumably them ending up back at base has caused a further major dislocation to a return flight at some stage.
I’m not defending the decision itself, it might have been a good one or bad one, I don’t know, I don’t have enough information. I’m just saying that declining to use a US alternate when they had other options available in no way implies their US alternates aren’t suitable.

[KAPAC]

The passengers want to be in the states , if it’s safe to continue then do it ! What suits the airline is secondary . Shareholders , bonuses all take a back seat .

[capricorn23]

My idea on these stories (ANZ and ITA flights, ex Alitalia) is that they were not carrying just boxes and goods, but people, with whom "a contract" (tickets) was signed to be carried from a departure airport to a destination one. Unless critical safety issues aroused during the trip, I find the "end of this story" very embarassing for the carriers and a legitimate anger from all the passengers was more than justified and logical. The "internal reasons" put ahead by those airlines are like a "cover laid on a hole"... with the "cover" much worse than the "hole". Once in a while, any commercial enterprise faces business risks... this was one of these... but those carriers "kicked the ball outside the 'out' line", saving "few peanuts " but destroying the trust of many people, with logical consequences on their future "fidelity".That says a lot on the "internal culture" of those enterprises, being their mission a "people business".

[tdracer]

People have to make quick decisions based on the data that is available to them at the moment.
Sometimes - often with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight - those decisions are not perhaps the best. But you have to work with what you have available at the time - not the information you wish you had available.

[WHBM]

People have to make quick decisions based on the data that is available to them at the moment.
Sometimes - often with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight - those decisions are not perhaps the best. But you have to work with what you have available at the time - not the information you wish you had available.
Isn't that why we calmly work out Alternates on the filed flight plan before we start ?

[capricorn23]

Just to be frank, in my 40+ years of aviation and 20k+ hours as a pilot, I never heard such a sillness as "the airplane will sit idle on the ground at the alternate airport for 2-3 days"... com'on... that's ridiculous... we are not talking of "third world" airports, neither of exceptional adverse weather like typhoon, hurricane and similar stuff. The only excuse I might find is relevant to the max. Duty times of the outbound crew ( the flight time only is in the region of 17-18 hrs.) as it might position from the original destination to an alternate airport... but those might be easily Newark and La Guardia, so here no problem. For more distant alternates (e.g. Boston) the break for the crew after the positioning flight and before their duty flight might cost not more than 8-10 hrs. as a delay. Of course, the company coordination of all this should be quite effective. And that's not a rarity in the long haul operations.

[tdracer]

Isn't that why we calmly work out Alternates on the filed flight plan before we start ?
Alternates are usually intended for 'land at nearest suitable airport' purposes - basically no other choice but put the aircraft on the ground as soon as practical.
When you have a perfectly serviceable aircraft and the destination airport is unexpected closed, planned alternates don't hold as much meaning.

[Climb150]

Alternates are usually intended for 'land at nearest suitable airport' purposes - basically no other choice but put the aircraft on the ground as soon as practical.
When you have a perfectly serviceable aircraft and the destination airport is unexpected closed, planned alternates don't hold as much meaning.

Planned alternates are exactly for problems at the destination airport. Weather, closed runways etc.

You are confusing diversions with alternates.

[tdracer]

Planned alternates are exactly for problems at the destination airport. Weather, closed runways etc.

You are confusing diversions with alternates.
OK, fair enough - but at the time they learned of the closure of the destination airport, they are in the middle of the Pacific. If they were closer to the North American mainland, a diversion to somewhere in North America would make sense. As it was, they were closer to home than they were to the primary alternates.

[wiggy]

OK, fair enough - but at the time they learned of the closure of the destination airport, they are in the middle of the Pacific. If they were closer to the North American mainland, a diversion to somewhere in North America would make sense. As it was, they were closer to home than they were to the primary alternates.

Absolutely agree with your thinking on this.

Yes, "Planned alternates are exactly for problems at the destination airport. Weather, closed runways etc.", and obviously become of increasing importance as you approach destination and your options reduce since your diversion footprint is becoming more limited, typically by fuel.

OTOH if you learn that your destination is closed when you are several hours away AFAIK there's never been a requirement to slavishly plod on to any one of your filed alternates (either destination alternate or en-route alternate). In that situation to some extent pre-flight planning, including choice of alternates, that was often done simply to satisfy legal fuel requirements at the original destination, all goes in the bin and you start considering all other options.

[dmwalker]

May I ask what the planned alternates might have been in this case?

[EEngr]

Yes, "Planned alternates are exactly for problems at the destination airport. Weather, closed runways etc.",


Which this was. I would think that a planned alternate somewhere near the original destination would be preferable to having the plane end up half way around the world from it's original schedule. Not to mention the replacement crew that got left behind in New York and subsequent flights planned for that equipment and personnel. All which could have been solved with a few cab/bus rides had LGA or somplace in New Jersey been used for the diversion.

[patrickal]

Which this was. I would think that a planned alternate somewhere near the original destination would be preferable to having the plane end up half way around the world from it's original schedule. Not to mention the replacement crew that got left behind in New York and subsequent flights planned for that equipment and personnel. All which could have been solved with a few cab/bus rides had LGA or somplace in New Jersey been used for the diversion.
Individual airlines may have a diversion plan, but what about the airport operator? Port Authority of NY-NJ owns not only the international airports JFK and EWR, they also own Stewart International Airport (SWF) in Newburgh, NY, about 60 air miles north of JFK. It often used as a diversion destination when serious storms are hitting the NYC area and international arrivals are inbound and approaching fuel limits. It is also serves as the "parking lot" for many diplomatic aircraft (most of which are wide-bodies) during the annual UN General Assembly. Although the terminal is rather small , 7 jetway gates (but more than half of the 11 gates of Terminal 1), has immigration and customs facilities, and it is VERY underutilized. There are also several large hangers which are in good shape and could be used as temporary terminals.

There is no reason why the Port Authority does not have a back plan in their pocket ready for exactly the kind of situation they faced here. It would include diverting a select number of long range inbound flights to SWF, processing passengers through immigration and customs, and bussing them south to NYC, about a 90 minute ride to Manhattan. Any flight still reasonably close to their origin could return, and perhaps some other flights could be diverted to EWR, BOS or PHL. There are 11 gates at Terminal 1. I don't know how many total flight operations occur out of there on a daily basis, but it has to be possible to have a backup plan that could handle it.

[CargoOne]

It is a typical story of long haul (ULH in this instance). Solution to land at Philly, EWR etc would suit most of the passengers on this particular flight better but the implications to the whole network will be there for a good 7 if not 14 days, with a good probability of making literally thousands of passengers unhappy. There is a general rule to try to isolate the problem where it is and carry on. One missed round trip (with airplane and crew in position) is way much better than a cascade of delays and cancellations. Same applies to rebookings - no ticketed pax will be denied boarding in AKL next day just because you have a full load of pax from yesterday's return awaiting their flight.

[patrickal]

It is a typical story of long haul (ULH in this instance). Solution to land at Philly, EWR etc would suit most of the passengers on this particular flight better but the implications to the whole network will be there for a good 7 if not 14 days, with a good probability of making literally thousands of passengers unhappy. There is a general rule to try to isolate the problem where it is and carry on. One missed round trip (with airplane and crew in position) is way much better than a cascade of delays and cancellations. Same applies to rebookings - no ticketed pax will be denied boarding in AKL next day just because you have a full load of pax from yesterday's return awaiting their flight.
But what about the full load of passengers sitting in NY awaiting a flight to AKL where there is no aircraft now? Do they spread those passengers on either empty seats available for the next few day or re-book them on another carrier? I guess the real question is when will the airline industry get to using AI to help figure this all out. It's much more complicated than the average traveler realizes.

[CargoOne]

But what about the full load of passengers sitting in NY awaiting a flight to AKL where there is no aircraft now? Do they spread those passengers on either empty seats available for the next few day or re-book them on another carrier? I guess the real question is when will the airline industry get to using AI to help figure this all out. It's much more complicated than the average traveler realizes.

For sure they will distribute pax across other carriers, for some it will mean a stop in LAX, for some it will be a detour via SYD but one plane load is doable and again, it it just pax from this flight instead of thousands.

[AerocatS2A]

Which this was. I would think that a planned alternate somewhere near the original destination would be preferable to having the plane end up half way around the world from it's original schedule. Not to mention the replacement crew that got left behind in New York and subsequent flights planned for that equipment and personnel. All which could have been solved with a few cab/bus rides had LGA or somplace in New Jersey been used for the diversion.

All of those points are valid and presumably they were taken into consideration when deciding whether to send the flight to the States or turn it around.

How long did the JFK terminal end up being closed for? Does anyone know?

[capricorn23]

The "commercial message" sent to the pax on board and those waiting to depart JFK back to Auckland has been: "we, the company, don't care about all of you but we do for all our future passengers"... that is all those still sitting unaware at home. I think that could have originated by a panicking atmosphere at the company OCC. I am sure they will earn a mention in the Guinnes Book of Records next edition.

[WHBM]

One of the downsides of a return to base is that, whereas if you divert en-route all the Ops team are scrambling to get accommodation, onward flights, relief crews, etc to move you on, go back to base and it's not their problem any more, over to Reservations, back of the queue, no seats for the next three days, just squeeze you in wherever.

[wiggy]

It is a typical story of long haul (ULH in this instance). Solution to land at Philly, EWR etc would suit most of the passengers on this particular flight better but the implications to the whole network will be there for a good 7 if not 14 days, with a good probability of making literally thousands of passengers unhappy. There is a general rule to try to isolate the problem where it is and carry on. One missed round trip (with airplane and crew in position) is way much better than a cascade of delays and cancellations. Same applies to rebookings - no ticketed pax will be denied boarding in AKL next day just because you have a full load of pax from yesterday's return awaiting their flight.

Yep, and TBF from some of the shock/horror/commercial disaster posts you'd think ANZ are the first and only airline ever to have U-turned well into on a Longhaul flight to the States...reality is it's certainly happened before to other airlines and no doubt will happen again.

Have to say that from having listened to some personal accounts over the years IMHO it's highly risky thinking diverting, especially somewhere well offline, will immediately get you the instant undivided attention of Ops staff and others back at base......I understand the logic behind thinking that but it's quite possible you, your flight deck colleagues and the cabin crew will end up as being "it" as far as the passengers are concerned for an undetermined period of time........

[FBW390]

I have diverted several times with my single or twin aisle aircraft now and I find this turn back to Auckland completely stupid!!! It was maybe better for ops and beancounters but ANZ forgot why passengers pay a ticket : arrive at destination, or near, and on time, more or less.
Here ANZ didn’t care they Had PAX to NY. And what about the ones for the return flight ? I understand they must all be very angry!
Yes, an alternate is exactly for that !

FBW390

[goeasy]

It is a typical story of long haul (ULH in this instance). Solution to land at Philly, EWR etc would suit most of the passengers on this particular flight better but the implications to the whole network will be there for a good 7 if not 14 days, with a good probability of making literally thousands of passengers unhappy. There is a general rule to try to isolate the problem where it is and carry on. One missed round trip (with airplane and crew in position) is way much better than a cascade of delays and cancellations. Same applies to rebookings - no ticketed pax will be denied boarding in AKL next day just because you have a full load of pax from yesterday's return awaiting their flight.

Top reply!!! The downline effects were reduced by this action. End of story! Tough for those on board - but best for all others on Air NZ network...

[capricorn23]

Top reply!!! The downline effects were reduced by this action. End of story! Tough for those on board - but best for all others on Air NZ network...

I would then suggest ANZ to cancel the concept of destination alternate , so they would spare fuel and make sure of no delay in the operations... diversion will be carried out only enroute and always back home. After all, the enroute airports diversion for emergencies are not so frequent.

[CargoOne]

I would then suggest ANZ to cancel the concept of destination alternate , so they would spare fuel and make sure of no delay in the operations... diversion will be carried out only enroute and always back home. After all, the enroute airports diversion for emergencies are not so frequent.

I am felling sorry for the pax who were turned back to AKL and passengers awaiting this aircraft in JFK on that day but if you have had a chance to learn how it looks from the ops side, you would not make such a comment. Someone has suggested ops are just trying to avoid irregular pax handling like hotels and ground transfers. This is the last consideration to have place, at the end of a day there are people who are paid to do the things including those. Many years ago the airplane flying into EWR had to divert to JFK (no fuel to return back), and I dont remember exact reason but I well remember it took 6 (six) hours to arrange handing to deboard the passengers. And another 10 hours to get fuel. And that airline was not stupid, it just what it takes on a bad day (and JFK terminal closure by definition is a bad day). So the alternates in FPL are good if you dont have other options, you will be safe on the ground. Safe does not mean comfortable and served. If you wish to take a pilots perspective on that, such NZ diversion would cause a flush of all stand bys and offduty calls for the next week or so with many missing their kids birthdays etc. Passengers are the first no doubt and it was the best decision to make as little passengers unhappy as possible.

ps i don’t think you can divert an international (non-Canada) flight to LGA unless it is an emergency

[20driver]

I have to say I find the decision curious. I get there are a lot of balls in the air but EWR is only 30 minutes from JFK and PHL is only 90 minutes. I hope ANZ does a serious and honest post mortem on this. I get decisions have to to be made in a short time frame.
Looking at the schedule the plane arrives at JFK @ 1740 and the return departs 2 hours later. Would they use the same plane to return? That seems a very tight turnaround.
It is 12 hours are the other end.
Flight time are 16 hours inbound and 18 hours outbound. What are the FDL's for such a flight?
The other part of the decision was they had about 8 hours to see what developed at JFK. Do you take the chance things will clear up?
Must have been interesting to be in the room while decisions were made. Does anyone know how long it took to make the decision.?

[WHBM]

If you wish to take a pilots perspective on that, such NZ diversion would cause a flush of all stand bys and offduty calls for the next week or so with many missing their kids birthdays etc..

Do we think the decision taken avoids this ? Operating crew out of position; deadhead crew they were carrying out of position; return crew from JFK stuck there out of position.

This flight (16 Feb) runs just three times a week. The previous outbound flight from Auckland to JFK, three days before (13 Feb), had also been cancelled, so the return to base was doubtless carrying a good few who had been displaced from that, and were having their second gross disruption. One would have thought some extra effort would now be made to get there, or as close as reasonable. Those passengers had, for the second time, now had their expensive New York hotel stays and other arrangements on arrival, invariably prepaid and unrecoverable nowadays, wasted again.

[fdr]

ANZ probably just alienated 250+ pax and their families. Golly. An RTB that ends up with an extended duty period to return to A seems like a less than optimal solution. There are dozens of airports ENR that ANZ could have lobbed into, rather than do a ground hog day repeat. Between spending more than 16 hrs to get to the starting point or going for another 3 after 8 and taking a rest at a best western and then moving along 24 hrs later would have seemed like a good use of heartbeats, cycles and CO2. Kiwis are pretty laid back, but.... wait, they are the ones that do the Haka thingy, top people with green rock things... don't like underarm bowlers... win yacht races...

[Wingsofglass]

I do not believe it’s appropriate to think about this in terms of the number of passengers whose flights would have been impacted if the plane continued vs. turned back. Forcing a customer to spend 16 hours in a coach seat is real physical abuse compared to cancelling someone’s flight three days in the future.

[flydive1]

Forcing a customer to spend 16 hours in a coach seat is real physical abuse compared to cancelling someone’s flight three days in the future.

How long would have been without turn around?

[davidjpowell]

Given that they were several hours away, was it really impossible to get the new crew and plane to meet in an airport within kicking distance of JFK. It all sounds like a could not be bothered lets turn it around...

Simple view from a back seat passenger I accept.

[oceancrosser]

I think this thread has well run its course.

[Grummaniser]

I think this thread has well run its course.
Best turn it round and send it back then 🙂

[pattern_is_full]

Given that they were several hours away, was it really impossible to get the new crew and plane to meet in an airport within kicking distance of JFK. It all sounds like a could not be bothered lets turn it around...

Simple view from a back seat passenger I accept.

Takes more than just aircraft crew to handle an airliner at an airport. Ground crew (customer service, baggage handlers - in the US, these are generally airline employees, not airport employees), fuel service (generally contracted per airport for cheapest price), gate assignment, possibly assigned landing slot (pre-arranged time/date appointment to use the airport). And for international flights (as this was) customs and immigration/security staff (who want to have manifests on all the passengers on board, well before landing).

For a simple diversion (land, taxi to an empty ramp in a corner of the airport, sit there for x-many hours with the passengers remaining in their seats until the new crew arrives) it is not too difficult (probably). And obviously in a true emergency (serious aircraft problem, 9-11) one does what one has to do, both in the air and on the ground.

But if the passengers are going to leave the aircraft (just to stretch their legs, or go to a hotel, or catch ongoing domestic US flights), see paragraph one.

Now, if it were me personally running ANZ ops, I might have diverted to Chicago (closest airport where ANZ regularly provides service from Auckland and has at least a part-time gate and either employees or rented ground service providers on site) and assumed a small terminal fire would only cause a couple of hours delay.

[fdr]

Takes more than just aircraft crew to handle an airliner at an airport. Ground crew (customer service, baggage handlers - in the US, these are generally airline employees, not airport employees), fuel service (generally contracted per airport for cheapest price), gate assignment, possibly assigned landing slot (pre-arranged time/date appointment to use the airport). And for international flights (as this was) customs and immigration/security staff (who want to have manifests on all the passengers on board, well before landing).

For a simple diversion (land, taxi to an empty ramp in a corner of the airport, sit there for x-many hours with the passengers remaining in their seats until the new crew arrives) it is not too difficult (probably). And obviously in a true emergency (serious aircraft problem, 9-11) one does what one has to do, both in the air and on the ground.

But if the passengers are going to leave the aircraft (just to stretch their legs, or go to a hotel, or catch ongoing domestic US flights), see paragraph one.

Now, if it were me personally running ANZ ops, I might have diverted to Chicago (closest airport where ANZ regularly provides service from Auckland and has at least a part-time gate and either employees or rented ground service providers on site) and assumed a small terminal fire would only cause a couple of hours delay.

I hazard a guess that at some point since the boys got off their bikes at Kitty hawk at the turn of the last century, that some planes have diverted and got to C instead of B, and didn't sit in splendour with seats conforming the human anatomy to the delight of an EY seat, for 16 hrs to get for A to A with the same gang of fare payers who tend to bew vocal and connected on social media Chicago pizza would have been just fine I wouid wager. Or Philly cheese steak on rye, or a view of 1600 Pen.

Cost wise, cheaper to divert onwards. Disruption wise, a lower recovery period. Value? 250 grateful pax for the effort of the airline, rain, hail, shine, neither fire nor flood etc. Instead, the punters get the same pleasure again, if they are lucky. Given that the flight had been canned 3 days prior, the sensitivity to perception alone should have added weight to putting the pax proximate to their intended destination.

[condor17]

A lot of understanding from those who have done it , less from others .
Traditionally an airline ticket would take you from A to B , but no guarantee as to when .
As others implied . Flight plan diversions go out of the window when it's Commercial diversion decisions .
It does not have to be Long Haul , and in this case Ultra Long Haul [ whole set of other problems ] .
Highlands and Islands Ops , if you could not get into the Island , then back to Glasgow , no good diverting from Stornoway to Benbecula .
Moscow ops , back in the day an a/c was shuttling back and forth from Helsinki to Moscow .. Henceforth not getting into Moscow meant back to LHR .
Ops normally have the bigger picture , with Capt having overiding decision . i.e. PNR to base passed.
Last month a BBQ in NZ chatting with ANZ crews .. The JFK route is still learning , and ULH as said . 5 hrs ETOPs is used by ANZ , depressurisation fuel often needed . And if forecast winds poor on JFK-AKL , well ahead of the day , crews have to be deadheaded to Nandi in case the direct lobs in .
All in all , difficult challenges for Ops and Crew . Who over 50 yrs observations are professionals trying to do their best .

rgds condor .

[flyTheBigFatLady]

A lot of understanding from those who have done it , less from others .
Traditionally an airline ticket would take you from A to B , but no guarantee as to when .
As others implied . Flight plan diversions go out of the window when it's Commercial diversion decisions .
It does not have to be Long Haul , and in this case Ultra Long Haul [ whole set of other problems ] .
Highlands and Islands Ops , if you could not get into the Island , then back to Glasgow , no good diverting from Stornoway to Benbecula .
Moscow ops , back in the day an a/c was shuttling back and forth from Helsinki to Moscow .. Henceforth not getting into Moscow meant back to LHR .
Ops normally have the bigger picture , with Capt having overiding decision . i.e. PNR to base passed.
Last month a BBQ in NZ chatting with ANZ crews .. The JFK route is still learning , and ULH as said . 5 hrs ETOPs is used by ANZ , depressurisation fuel often needed . And if forecast winds poor on JFK-AKL , well ahead of the day , crews have to be deadheaded to Nandi in case the direct lobs in .
All in all , difficult challenges for Ops and Crew . Who over 50 yrs observations are professionals trying to do their best .

rgds condor .

question, which twin can do 5 hour diversion

[AerocatS2A]

question, which twin can do 5 hour diversion

B787 has 330 minutes ETOPS approval, that’s 5.5 hours in case you don’t want to do the maths.

[tdracer]

B787 has 330 minutes ETOPS approval, that’s 5.5 hours in case you don’t want to do the maths.
An observation - somewhere between 300 and 330 minutes ETOPS means that you can fly the most optimum routing between pretty much any two city pairs (it varies slightly between aircraft due to the differences in engine out cruise speed). 180 minute ETOPS means you can fly between any two city pairs, but the routing may not be optimal due to the need to stay within the necessary alternate distance.

[20driver]

Is there any record of what has being the longest ETOPS diversion segment to date. 300 minutes would be a very long anxious time to be cruising on one engine.