Fighting in flight fires

[sky9]

An FAA document that is well worth reading for reference.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2001/A01_83_87.pdf

[HugMonster]

Interesting document, sky9.

I am shocked in the extreme that the crews involved displayed such poor training and sense in these incidents.

Delta 2030
What on earth was the #1 thinking of in delaying to ask the captain's permission to put a fire out? And what on earth was he thinking of when he told the #1 not to use Halon in the cabin? Yes, Halon is nasty stuff after it's been pyralised, but not nearly as nasty as an uncontrolled fire.

AirTran 913
Does Fire Training in the USA not cover the chemistry of fire? The off-duty pilot was worried that "oxygen would be taken away"??? He's obviously not aware that this is one method of extinguishing a fire.

American 1683
The CC told the passenger to "use the extinguisher if needed"???? Whatever happened to the crew taking responsibility for the people in their care? She should have sat herself right there. She has the equipment, the recurrent training (or does she?).

Air Canada 797
As the document makes clear, one significant factor in this incident was the delay in putting the aircraft on the deck. If I have any fire within the fuselage, I am going to make an emergency descent and diversion ASAP. I am going to be extra keen on this if the crew can't determine the origin of the fire.

Whilst it is important not to be complacent about such things, I think that most flight deck and cabin crew members I have flown with would show 50 times more sense than was displayed in these incidents.

[RatherBeFlying]

Now that the SLF can no longer be usefully canvassed for ironmongery suitable for penetrating interior panels, it may be time to stump up for a couple battery operated drills with hole-saw attachments sized to admit a fire extinguisher nozzle.

The panel does help keep the halon concentrated where it is most needed.

And definitely the cabin crew needs to know where not to drill holes:eek: Markings to indicate vulnerable bits immediately beneath or alternatively Drill Here marks would do that.

[flapsforty]

The times I focus on fire fighting in the pre flight safety briefing, I use the number of people dead from the Air Canada toilet fire to emphasize the importance of communicating properly with the pilots.
From what I have read about that accident, had the pilots been informed immediately & precisely about the severity of smoke development in the cabin, the outcome would have been far different.
A real life example tends to drive the message home far more effectively than a mere rehashing of procedures.

[FWA NATCA]

One must remember that the by-product of Halon is very deadly, though given the choice of burning to death or being smoothered by Halon, I think I'd pick Halon.

Mike

[Captain Stable]

Me too, Mike. At least after the fire is out you can ventilate the cabin, or drop the rubber jungle. With fire raging uncontrolled, you don't have much choice of anything.

[RatherBeFlying]

Unreacted halon is a mildly toxic fluorocarbon-- and considerably more toxic after the reactions engendered by extinguishing a fire. The bigger the fire, the greater the eventual toxic release; so, immediate extinguishing action will substantially minimise this.

But far less toxic than combustion byproducts from an uncontrolled fire -- CO, HCL, HCN ... :(

[Tonic Please]

AA 1683 flight...was struck by lightening, and during my read, I noticed that the attendants asked for someone to get a knife to "cut the ceiling panel".

I was just thinking that that AA flight had someone carrying a knife, which in comparison to nowadays, is unheard of. I find it quite interesting that even that person carrying a knife had no intention of killing anyone or taking the crew hosage, and it annoys me that just because of those "9/11 attackers", peoples' freedom(i think thats the word im meaning to use) has been lost. EG: Visiting the flight deck, and taking toe nail clippers with you :mad: Those "privelages" have been lost.

Smooth skies

:rolleyes:

[DECU]

Hi Guys,
A very interesting thread. I am about to start this phase of my sim training, and would appreciate any helpful information regarding dealing with inflight fires.

I am new to airline flying and this is my first sim session dealing with fires. Can anyone give me some helpful pointers and steer me in the right direction, as to what to do and how to hanlde the situation?

Thakns in advance.

DECU:eek:

[BlueEagle]

DECU - You don't say if you are flight tech or cabin crew but, either way, you must follow the manuals. Know all your boxed items in the check list, it is mandatory memory stuff, follow up by reading all the notes in the expanded check list.

Engine fires require a fairly straight forward drill, cabin fires a little more complex as the drill sometimes depends on where abouts in the cabin the fire is. Once again, follow the check lists.

Golden rules for all check lists are to not rush them and for any action you take wait and watch to see what the reaction is as it can effect your subsequent drills.

Best of luck in the SIM.

BlueEagle - moderator.

[DECU]

Blue Eagle,

Thanks for the reply. It's all very useful information and advice which I shall follow. I did forget to mention it, and I apologize. I am flight deck crew training on the Airbus A330.

The engine fire I didnt really have a problem with, but I am just a bit anxious about the smoke/fire in the cabin stuff.


Besides following the checklist procedures, what are the CRM aspects of it? Coming straight out of flying school as an instructor, I do not have that much experience working with another crew member when it comes to dealing with these abnormals/emergencies. Can you or anyone else please shed some light on the do's and dont's of working together with the other crew members?

Thanks,

DECU

[FWA NATCA]

Tonic,

In the US passengers have never been allowed access to the flight deck after the acft has left the jet way. And since 9/11 no one but the pilots get near the flight deck.

Mike

[Tonic Please]

FWA was not aware of that but all in all...A great shame.

I was watching a documentary on discovery channel called "After the Fall" and it still gives one shivers watching those planes hit, and seeing people jumping from windows 120 stories up coz they cannot escape. :(

Smooth skies to all :cool: and keep air travel what it should be. Fun, safe and enjoyable to do.

[BlueEagle]

Yes, the reason I raised the question of Cabin crew or Tech crew
is because several airlines now have a very sophisticated cabin simulator that can realistically simulate T/O, cruise, landing, landing gear collapse, over-run, abort T/O, fire, smoke in the cabin etc. etc.

You, having come from an instructional background and not having been with an airline before, are in a very enviable position since you don't have another operators/aircraft procedures to forget whilst learning the new ones!

Remember that you are doing a conversion course and the primary object is to teach you the required procedures, it is possible but unlikely that a cabin fire would become part of a final or a base check. It is a crew coordination exercise and gives you the opportunity to follow the check lists, cross check each action and monitor your partner. If you see something being missed or incorrectly interpreted then it is your job to say so.
Having been an instructor your CRM qualities are probably quite a lot more advanced than you imagine since you will already be used to working with someone else in the cockpit to achieve the best correct results.

Be sure to know your aeroplane systems and procedures, study the check list and the expanded check list and enjoy the training.

Best of luck,

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[DECU]

Blue Eagle,

Thanks for all your input. The cabin fire procedure I asked you about is an actual LOFT exercise I did in the sim, just as you described. Much fun indeed, but hard work , especially when the cockpit gets filled with smoke too!

Once again, I appreciate your help. Thank you.

DECU

[BlueEagle]

DECU - you are most welcome. If they eventually filled the cockpit with smoke too the chances are you were doing so well they gave you the lot to see how you coped!