Network Vacancies

[Johnny Cash IBE]

Can anyone spread some light on vacancies opening up at Network. Heard they need GM Training/ Checking, Fleet Manager F100.

[tiger-palm]

Can anyone spread some light on vacancies opening up at Network. Heard they need GM Training/ Checking, Fleet Manager F100.

FM F100 on seek (CAMO role) not Flt Ops

[Johnny Cash IBE]

FM F100 on seek (CAMO role) not Flt Ops

Got the inside scoop thanks. Senior Base F100 vacant which is the old FM Flt Ops role apparently. Safety and Training on the nose and might be some vacancies there shortly.

[flyinghorseman]

Also needed are pilots that can pass command upgrades.

[sid-star]

Got the inside scoop thanks. Senior Base F100 vacant which is the old FM Flt Ops role apparently. Safety and Training on the nose and might be some vacancies there shortly.

There does seem to be a revolving door amongst the management..why so many changes.

[Johnny Cash IBE]

There does seem to be a revolving door amongst the management..why so many changes.

Thats what I’ve heard. I’m interested in senior roles having done them for 15yrs but it appears the current setup is inexperienced, ego types looking for their parachute to QF management. Upgrade failure rates possibly due to under qualified training personnel.

[aussieflyboy]

Also needed are pilots that can pass command upgrades.

Well if the QF management team had an ounce of common sense they would have offered the 20 odd NJS senior captains that were based in Perth (and have now departed the group) CMD positions at Network.

[kimbobimbo]

Thats what I’ve heard. I’m interested in senior roles having done them for 15yrs but it appears the current setup is inexperienced, ego types looking for their parachute to QF management. Upgrade failure rates possibly due to under qualified training personnel.

You don’t want much there do you buddy? Just want to get put straight to the top eh?

Under qualified training personnel? Ego types? Inexperienced? You’ve really done your research haven’t you? Come join us and save us from ourselves!

Most roles are filled internally FYI.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Most roles are filled internally FYI.

Maybe we’ve found the problem……

[Johnny Cash IBE]

You don’t want much there do you buddy? Just want to get put straight to the top eh?

Under qualified training personnel? Ego types? Inexperienced? You’ve really done your research haven’t you? Come join us and save us from ourselves!

Most roles are filled internally FYI.

Perhaps that’s the problem my friend.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Hear hear Jack. Gold

[Jc31]

100% pass rate on internal upgrades on both fleets in the last 18 months. Not one failure

[Johnny Cash IBE]

100% pass rate on internal upgrades on both fleets in the last 18 months. Not one failure
That’s a red flag itself, especially when those have only 500hrs on A320

[RealSatoshi]

I’m interested in senior roles having done them for 15yrs but it appears the current setup is inexperienced, ego types looking for their parachute to QF management. Upgrade failure rates possibly due to under qualified training personnel.
Selling 101
Squash everything and everyone to a pulp...then offer a better solution :}
You are aware though that they have ex widebody crew operating in all positions, including F100 First Officer - hardly inexperienced...I'd say.

Here's one:
Virgin Australia Group: Head of Flight Operations (https://www.seek.com.au/job/60306898?type=standout#sol=a0e50fbe319e457027b9c2d81760ad569 0d1fb17)
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/756x310/screenshot_2023_02_11_at_10_11_01_ad85888afe18584634f47bd6af 3ed35d9582e68e.png

[Jc31]

That’s a red flag itself, especially when those have only 500hrs on A320
who has 500 hours on airbus? All the internal upgrades on the bus were senior fos.

[airdualbleedfault]

Part of the issue these days is they pay their managers peanuts, and it's not just Network, which attracts the people you don't want in the position eg egomaniacs

[RealSatoshi]

That’s a red flag itself, especially when those have only 500hrs on A320
How many hours on a 787 did the first QF 787 Captain have...asking for a friend :zzz:

[Johnny Cash IBE]

who has 500 hours on airbus? All the internal upgrades on the bus were senior fos.

Depends what you call senior. 2yrs on F100 then 500hrs on A320 doesn’t classify anyone as senior.

Rapid expansion, different cultures, constantly changing management, challenging environment, and fast commands all cry out “risk”.

[kimbobimbo]

100% pass rate on internal upgrades on both fleets in the last 18 months. Not one failure

Yeah, as far as I know that’s correct.

Calling bull**** on this thread.

[kimbobimbo]

That’s a red flag itself, especially when those have only 500hrs on A320

Company requirements are high than that pal.

[kimbobimbo]

who has 500 hours on airbus? All the internal upgrades on the bus were senior fos.

Exactly, and most have experience beyond Airbus. In fact many have thousands of hours on ‘narrow’ bodies (whatever that is) operating in the environment they will be commanding in.

Totally ignoring F100 time will not endear you to this pilot group. We are thoroughly sick of it.

[Johnny Cash IBE]

Exactly, and most have experience beyond Airbus. In fact many have thousands of hours on ‘narrow’ bodies (whatever that is) operating in the environment they will be commanding in.

Totally ignoring F100 time will not endear you to this pilot group. We are thoroughly sick of it.

oh dear, you poor misguided soul.

[Australopithecus]

I suspect that johnny Cash is either a wind-up artist or does actually have senior role experience, yet is looking for work because…

WRT to pass rates: reasonable hiring, good mentoring and training should yield very few failures at command time. Except in the RAAF apparently, and at a related airline.

[kimbobimbo]

oh dear, you poor misguided soul.

misguided? You want a job a network and insult everyone there? I feel like, sir, you are misguided.

[Johnny Cash IBE]

misguided? You want a job a network and insult everyone there? I feel like, sir, you are misguided.

You stated senior roles should be from internal applicants. You seem completely closed off to external talent joining “your” operation. That, my friend, is misguided. Perhaps the recent influx of experienced personnel, ex HKG, will open your mind to building a resilient, experienced culture at Network. The entire QF operation whether Mainline or regionals have limited reach and those operating in that environment only know what they know. There is a bigger stage in aviation and operational quality comes from embracing cultural mentorship not mentorship from those that have been isolated in a limited environment.

[twentyelevens]

You stated senior roles should be from internal applicants. You seem completely closed off to external talent joining “your” operation. That, my friend, is misguided. Perhaps the recent influx of experienced personnel, ex HKG, will open your mind to building a resilient, experienced culture at Network. The entire QF operation whether Mainline or regionals have limited reach and those operating in that environment only know what they know. There is a bigger stage in aviation and operational quality comes from embracing cultural mentorship not mentorship from those that have been isolated in a limited environment.

Management for sure. Possessed with the sole skill of writing so much yet saying so very little.

[phantom menace]

I’ve seen union reps swapping allegiances and becoming manager’s, I’ve also seen the ego types and the bloody good manager’s who are few and far between. An external perspective can be good but can also brings challenges , such as building respect and hopefully some loyalty from the troops.
The QF group will have a large talent pool to draw from but not necessarily the right person for every job - just look at all the recent job adverts for the A220 EIS.

[morno]

You stated senior roles should be from internal applicants. You seem completely closed off to external talent joining “your” operation. That, my friend, is misguided. Perhaps the recent influx of experienced personnel, ex HKG, will open your mind to building a resilient, experienced culture at Network. The entire QF operation whether Mainline or regionals have limited reach and those operating in that environment only know what they know. There is a bigger stage in aviation and operational quality comes from embracing cultural mentorship not mentorship from those that have been isolated in a limited environment.

Mate they’re flying buckets of **** from Perth to the bush and back, what could they possibly need all your “external experience” for? To teach them how to de-ice? How to taxi around Hong Kong?

[v1bang]

1. Apparently they’re about to negotiate a new EBA with similar conditions to Jetstar’s new one.

2. Rapid expansion of A320 frames could mean new destinations.

3. Quick progression to captaincy?

I think we need go stop calling this place **** - they’re obviously moving in the right direction. Any VA pilot on the F100/320 would be stupid not to take the small sign on bonus for the prospect of a bright and stable future?

Happy to be proven wrong!

[sid-star]

1. Apparently they’re about to negotiate a new EBA with similar conditions to Jetstar’s new one.

2. Rapid expansion of A320 frames could mean new destinations.

3. Quick progression to captaincy?

I think we need go stop calling this place **** - they’re obviously moving in the right direction. Any VA pilot on the F100/320 would be stupid not to take the small sign on bonus for the prospect of a bright and stable future?

Happy to be proven wrong!

You may very well be correct in your assumptions, but with the acute shortage of experienced pilots the acid test will be the new EBA ratification.
I don’t see any VA Pilot jumping ship unless the carrot is a big one.

[aussieflyboy]

1. Apparently they’re about to negotiate a new EBA with similar conditions to Jetstar’s new one.

2. Rapid expansion of A320 frames could mean new destinations.

3. Quick progression to captaincy?

I think we need go stop calling this place **** - they’re obviously moving in the right direction. Any VA pilot on the F100/320 would be stupid not to take the small sign on bonus for the prospect of a bright and stable future?

Happy to be proven wrong!

1. Jetstars conditions are not something to be striving for…

2. These are not new aircraft, they are nearly 20 years old.

3. No, seniority can also mean a very long time to captaincy as the boys all get upgraded.

A company will stop being called **** when it stops being ****. This particular companies work is over 60% contract flying. Not stable at all.

[dr dre]

1. Apparently they’re about to negotiate a new EBA with similar conditions to Jetstar’s new one.

New Jetstar EBA (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMi8xMi9BRTUxODcxNi5wZGY1 ?sid=&q=Jetstar%24%24pilot) is $232k Capt NB for 75hrs per month at 2023 rates. I believe NAA at their last 2018 rates and all added in plus a lower overtime threshold brings their pay into the low $200k’s. So a standard 3% pay rise from 2018 to 2023 rates would be very similar to JQ’s end total which really isn’t any significant win, especially considering the pay rates on offer rates some other airlines at the moment with DEC positions.

2. Rapid expansion of A320 frames could mean new destinations.

Probably just more Pilbara flying. Operational spares for aircraft that aren’t too reliable and mining companies that have contracts that require a minimum level of OTP otherwise penalties kick in. These aircraft are used for low density flying (a 1.5hr Pilbara run in the morning and arvo) specifically due to them being at the end of their service life.

3. Quick progression to captaincy?

Maybe, all regionals/subsidiaries have a quick progression to captaincy, well compared to mainline at least. But it’s probably not the long term captaincy that most pilots will strive for in their career. The fact all ex NAA pilots who went back to NAA from mainline on LWOP during Covid went straight back to mainline, even NAA Capt to mainline S/O in some cases, as soon as they could probably shows you where most see a better long term future.

Any VA pilot on the F100/320 would be stupid not to take the small sign on bonus for the prospect of a bright and stable future?

”Bright and stable” 😂. If flying to and from the Pilbara for the rest of your career is a bright future…..

You’re right about the “small” sign on bonus. Pathetic in the long run, mainline pilots will get their yearly bonus for this year alone about 2-3x more than that.

For a VA pilot there’s no real benefit, VA looks to be heading toward more integration between VARA and mainline whereas in the QF group it’s all about separation. Who knows if NAA will stop expanding if/when the A220 arrives west one day? Then to move in the group requires a full resignation of job and rehiring at NJS. It’s almost like a full circle.

The only ones who I could be see attracted by the bonus are the handful of Skippers or Alliance F100 guys. But probably can be counted on less than one hand.

[Bull_Shark]

Network are the Qantas group basket case.

It’s a failed experiment to see how low you can take subsidiary pay and conditions.

But you’ve got to keep everyone there engaged by making them think they’re taking over the world, one clapped out ex Jetstar Airbus at a time.

Network have their place and that’s bunting bogans around the Pilbara.

[kimbobimbo]

1. Jetstars conditions are not something to be striving for…

2. These are not new aircraft, they are nearly 20 years old.

3. No, seniority can also mean a very long time to captaincy as the boys all get upgraded.

A company will stop being called **** when it stops being ****. This particular companies work is over 60% contract flying. Not stable at all.

hahahahaha! Wow. That is good, so RPT is stable then? Sorry but you’re wrong. The thing you don’t realise is how lucrative contract work is, it’s 100% profit mate! If you divert on a mining contract, guess what, they pay! Not so for RPT. One passenger on a flight? No worries, they pay 100%! It’s ridiculous.

I would agree if we experience a mining downturn but that’s not the case just now. And if that happens guess what? All you’re bogan RPT pax won’t have the cash to fly as they won’t have a job!

You best hope WA keeps flying whatever the subsidiary, cause if they stop we all start sweating. East or west coast. But mostly east ;)

Also agree, long term network isn’t the place to be. But if you want to feel important I guess it is.

[soseg]

hahahahaha! Wow. That is good, so RPT is stable then? Sorry but you’re wrong. The thing you don’t realise is how lucrative contract work is, it’s 100% profit mate! If you divert on a mining contract, guess what, they pay! Not so for RPT. One passenger on a flight? No worries, they pay 100%! It’s ridiculous.

I would agree if we experience a mining downturn but that’s not the case just now. And if that happens guess what? All you’re bogan RPT pax won’t have the cash to fly as they won’t have a job!

You best hope WA keeps flying whatever the subsidiary, cause if they stop we all start sweating. East or west coast. But mostly east ;)

Also agree, long term network isn’t the place to be. But if you want to feel important I guess it is.


Pay? Who? Management’s pockets. The pilots at network get nothing.

[ZebraFlyer]

New Jetstar EBA (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMi8xMi9BRTUxODcxNi5wZGY1 ?sid=&q=Jetstar%24%24pilot) is $232k Capt NB for 75hrs per month at 2023 rates. I believe NAA at their last 2018 rates and all added in plus a lower overtime threshold brings their pay into the low $200k’s. So a standard 3% pay rise from 2018 to 2023 rates would be very similar to JQ’s end total which really isn’t any significant win, especially considering the pay rates on offer rates some other airlines at the moment with DEC positions.

It was a significant pay increase. But even still, we're outta here.

If you wanna be in WA the rest of your life then go to QF. You're wasting your time at any subsidiary when mainline struggles to find people in your preferred base at the best of times, yet still pays the 73 FOs way way more money than Network peeps. You will have narrowbody FO and widebody FO positions before everybody else because they can't be ****** commuting from the east coast. DO IT!

[Oldbrigade]

Would it possibly having anything to do with EB. Not the best track record in Regional Aviation.

[dusty99]

It's threads like these ones which define the Australian aviation industry. Toxic. Throwing hands over the internet at peers who do exactly the same job. Poor form. Get better.

[aussieflyboy]

It's threads like these ones which define the Australian aviation industry. Toxic. Throwing hands over the internet at peers who do exactly the same job. Poor form. Get better.

Exactly, the SAME job for less pay is the issue mate…

QF flys PER-BME and the Capt gets $300K
NA flys PER-BME and the Capt gets $170K

[flyinghorseman]

No amount of salary is enough compensation for wearing a popeye the sailor uniform and that hat.

[RealSatoshi]

Exactly, the SAME job for less pay is the issue mate…
QF flys PER-BME and the Capt gets $300K
NA flys PER-BME and the Capt gets $170K
And your point, when comparing B737 with F100 scales is what again..?
Why not compare QF 737 to 787 on the MEL-PER sector as well then..?

Comparing A320 to A320 would be technically correct yes, but that is not what you are inferring here.

[aussieflyboy]

And your point, when comparing B737 with F100 scales is what again..?
Why not compare QF 737 to 787 on the MEL-PER sector as well then..?

Comparing A320 to A320 would be technically correct yes, but that is not what you are inferring here.

You’re aware they fly A320s to Broome…? I was comparing a 737 to a A320

[RealSatoshi]

You’re aware they fly A320s to Broome…? I was comparing a 737 to a A320
You're aware that the figures you quoted are not A320 scales..?

[aussieflyboy]

You're aware that the figures you quoted are not A320 scales..?

Very aware. Why don’t you give us the correct scales. My point will still be proven.

[RealSatoshi]

Very aware. Why don’t you give us the correct scales. My point will still be proven.
Not saying you don't have a point, but don't use shock tactics such as quoting completely irrelevant figures to prove your point. Not associated with them, so will refrain from providing inaccurate figures :E

[dr dre]

You're aware that the figures you quoted are not A320 scales..?

Both figures quoted are about $50k shy of actual figures atm

[soseg]

And your point, when comparing B737 with F100 scales is what again..?
Why not compare QF 737 to 787 on the MEL-PER sector as well then..?

Comparing A320 to A320 would be technically correct yes, but that is not what you are inferring here.

350k vs a little over 200k if that makes you happy?

737 Captain can make similar to a 787 captain be it working a lot harder for it.

Here's a question for you, Satoshi. Let's ignore real figures. How much do you think an A320 FO and an A320 Captain should be making as a comparison to the average fulltime aussie wage?
1.2x? 1.5x? 2x?

The average aussie wage. Think about all the hundreds of jobs out there. Most would be at home every night, less stress, less skill and training, and wouldn't have 180 people's lives in their hands multiple times per day dealing with schedules, fatigue, MELs, crosswind/TS/sheer/traffic in ctafs/visibility/etc
Actually, let's make it more interesting. How much should those A320 FOs and Captains make compared to the average WA wage? 1.5x more? 2x more? 3x more?

[RealSatoshi]

Here's a question for you, Satoshi. Let's ignore real figures. How much do you think an A320 FO and an A320 Captain should be making as a comparison to the average fulltime aussie wage?
Comparing Pilot wages to the average Aussie wage is a Fools Game for many reasons - we all know it...

[Maggie Island]

Actually, let's make it more interesting. How much should those A320 FOs and Captains make compared to the average WA wage? 1.5x more? 2x more? 3x more?

Let’s make it even more interesting! Let’s use WA FIFO workers as a more appropriate comparison. A 19yo drillers offsider can make far more money than the average wage in a very high turnover position, s/he is compensated well not just to try (in vain) to stop them from pulling the pin but also for the varying levels of misery inflicted upon them.

Surely these factors combined with the cost of pilot training would suggest an A320 FO be provided with a few more rods!

[soseg]

Comparing Pilot wages to the average Aussie wage is a Fools Game for many reasons - we all know it...

Why is it a fool's game?

You're an apologist for Network's poor wages. Now it's time to defend them.

How much more should an a320 pilot be making compared to the average aussie doing presumably the average job? Easy question to answer.

[RealSatoshi]

Why is it a fool's game?
You're an apologist for Network's poor wages. Now it's time to defend them.
How much more should an a320 pilot be making compared to the average aussie doing presumably the average job? Easy question to answer.
Mate, I think you are misreading the room on this one...I'll just put this here from another thread to quell your fears...
Well, let's just start by saying that flying a Boeing 787 = "The Same Job" as flying a Boeing 787 et al.
There are low cost passengers and low cost services, but Boeing and/or Airbus never designed Low Cost Pilot versions of the same type...
Coat, Hat, Door :zzz:

[soseg]

Mate, I think you are misreading the room on this one...I'll just put this here from another thread to quell your fears...

Coat, Hat, Door :zzz:

You must be a politician. Great at avoiding questions.

[flyinghorseman]

100% pass rate on internal upgrades on both fleets in the last 18 months. Not one failure
Does that include F100 to A320 left to left seat?

[The Love Doctor]

Network A320 pilots should be at least aiming for parity with mainline 737 wages and conditions.
Network F100 pilots should be at least aiming for better than NJS 717 wages and conditions.
Similar wages and conditions for similar jobs.

There are ways of doing unofficial industrial action. Do the bare minimum as a starting point.

[aussieflyboy]

um - it takes around 20 years to get a 737 command in Qantas. Parity for someone who joined the Network recently is a bit rich isn’t it?

One could argue that it would take considerably less if QF Management had mainline pilots operating the routes Network are operating…

[dusty99]

I fail to see how an individual companies time to command has anything to do with deserving more pay. 🤦‍♂️


um - it takes around 20 years to get a 737 command in Qantas. Parity for someone who joined the Network recently is a bit rich isn’t it?

[Slippery_Pete]

NAA - The bin chicken scabs of the airline world.

No wonder they get excited when it‘s announced there’s some 30 year old, clapped out A320s on the way.

[unknownpilot]

NAA - The bin chicken scabs of the airline world.

No wonder they get excited when it‘s announced there’s some 30 year old, clapped out A320s on the way.

You wont find more than a handful of pilots at NAA who were around at the time where the term “scab” come into our industry. Absolutely zero justification for the use of that word to be aimed at the NAA pilot group.

Keep you your jaded and toxic comments to yourself Pete, clearly you don’t understand what that word actually means. 🤦🏼‍♂️

[BuzzBox]

NAA - The bin chicken scabs of the airline world.

Charming. Does it ever occur to some of you skygod wankers that quite a few people lost their livelihoods during the pandemic, and if those people want to live in a particular part of the world, they're left with little choice but to accept what's available in the local market?

[CaptCloudbuster]

I fail to see how an individual companies time to command has anything to do with deserving more pay. 🤦‍♂️

Because QF Management only allows their existence through low pay?

20% churn rate per year. Broken system. Provide a viable career path for existing Mainline Crew. Requires a complete change in mindset.

I’ll accept the current model if QF Management demonstrates savings achieved with low T & C’s Vs costs of training, admin etc etc.

Till that cold day arrives in hell I expect QF Management to abide by their own promulgated “non negotiable business principles “ ie “recruiting the right people into the right jobs”. As a poster on Qrewroom highlights those same principles state:“Our future success is underpinned by our people being skilled, motivated and supported to do great things.”

[AviatoR21]

I bet your were applying to NAA during the pandemic when you were stood down Pete. Happy to lower your standards then but clearly back on your high horse now.

[dusty99]

Everyone we are in the presense of a Sky God! Wow.

I doubt they get excited over a 30 year old A320. I think they take them for exactly what they are and going through the register don't know if many of them are 30 years old 🤦‍♂️. Bet you were applying for them 3 years ago when you were stacking shelves in woolies. 🤣


NAA - The bin chicken scabs of the airline world.

No wonder they get excited when it‘s announced there’s some 30 year old, clapped out A320s on the way.

[Australia2]

NAA - The bin chicken scabs of the airline world.

No wonder they get excited when it‘s announced there’s some 30 year old, clapped out A320s on the way.


What a miserable part of this industry you present as, inside or outside of the flight deck I’m pleased our paths don’t cross regularly.

I hope you never have a requirement for the empathy of others, I imagine it’ll be in short supply.

[davidclarke]

NAA - The bin chicken scabs of the airline world.

No wonder they get excited when it‘s announced there’s some 30 year old, clapped out A320s on the way.

Why do people continue to use this filthy word.
1989 was 34 years ago. Move on. You’re a scumbag Pete.

I bet you think that all the group AOCs are scabs except mainline. I know your type. You can spot them a mile away.

[john_tullamarine]

Let's change the thrust of the discussion, shall we, or the thread will be locked.

Like it or not, PPRuNe prefers not to get down and dirty regarding 1989.

For what little it may be worth to those who were not there and flying at the time, the timeframe is a tad longer than the previous post might suggest.

[morno]

34 years ago even!

I know a few guys there that just want to live in the west and fly planes. Leave them in peace.

We'll edit for a little while but the lock beckons. - jt

[43Inches]

In any case a "scab" is a strike breaker (in any industry), not relevant in this case. If you want real change you need all QF groups to represent as a group and sign clauses in the EBAs that prevent each group stepping on the others toes, ie scope clause. That is all group unions agree to work together to get that clause enacted. Only united you will be able to counter what management is doing, calling names, threats and disunity will just continue the cycle, management doesn't want you to agree on anything, that's how they can keep the downward pressure applied on your T&C. If you don't agree you get less.

And seriously I say this as at this time where experienced pilots are at a shortage QF seems to be the only pilot group going backwards in T&Cs with management laughing all the way to the bank with a massive profit announcement.... People need to grow some balls or you will be on bus driver wages in a few years.

[davidclarke]

34 years ago even!

I know a few guys there that just want to live in the west and fly planes. Leave them in peace.

We'll edit for a little while but the lock beckons. - jt

typo oops. I was only 10 years out ….😂

[PPRuNeUser01531]

Scope Clauses are the only answer to achieving solid unity across the QF pilot group. Unfortunately due to today's selfish survival modes that we are all programmed into managment have no concern about strength in numbers and will continue to divide and conquer. Unions....Unity....Yeah....Nah.

[Slippery_Pete]

I bet your were applying to NAA during the pandemic when you were stood down Pete. Happy to lower your standards then but clearly back on your high horse now.

​​​​​​​
Everyone we are in the presense of a Sky God! Wow.

Have never worked for the Q group, nor a subsidiary. However, have many friends I trained with about 30 years ago working at Q.

But good attempts to change the subject. One can only surmise such a huge reaction to my post means there’s something in it.

If you weren’t so busy flying to the Pilbara on days off for $350, you might have time to sit down and really THINK about how what you accept and normalise screws everyone else in the industry.

I don’t have anything against NAA pilots. You need to be aware that whoever accepts the lowest conditions affects EVERYONE else.

Let’s say for example, there’s 10,000 active jet airline pilots in Australia. Probably Qantas have the top 2000 or so in terms of pay. Then there’s VA, Jetstar, Rex and probably NAA tied for bottom place.

If Qantas pilots go in for an EBA, it only affects them because they’re at the top. No-one below them is affected because they’re currently paid less. If anything, it may help drag others up. What they are doing and accepting is affecting only them.

But if you’re say in the bottom 500 paid airline pilots in the country, the minimum you will accept affects EVERYONE above you. If airline management know there’s people willing to do much more for much less, it dilutes our profession and drags down what the other 9,500 pilots above you can achieve.

The lowest paid Australian jet pilots in fact have a huge amount of industrial responsibility, because they’re effectively demonstrating what the industry minimum can be for everyone above them. Lower that standard enough, and those 9,500 above you are at risk of losing their work as greedy management break legacy jobs apart and play everyone against each other.

Who the hell goes in on a day off and does a Pilbara return for $350? It’s absolutely ludicrous and your union should be stamping that **** out. All you’re doing is pissing on your colleagues both at NAA and other airlines.

We’re in a time of high pilot shortage, record airline profits, record aircraft orders, and for the first time in many years - a much easier pathway to US ATP jobs with an Aussie licence. Currently more Australian ATPL holders are disappearing overseas than new Australian ATPLs getting issued!!!

All airline pilots in Australia should be digging in right now for big improvements in conditions, not going to work for peanuts or playing into the hands of management.

What happened at NJS with the A220 should be a warning for everyone. They didn’t hold firm to bullying (“we’ll give the new jets to someone else”). They rolled over, accepting a crap pay deal. And then a huge bunch of them resigned en masse to go fly for Atlas 🤦🏻 All they’ve done is served up a huge **** sandwich for everyone who is left behind.

If they didn’t like the deal, they should have grown a backbone and not voted it up.

I wish you all well in getting huge improvements to terms and conditions at NAA, in what is most definitely a pilot’s market. Please value your profession and value yourselves.

[KAPAC]

All airline pilots in Australia should be digging in right now for big improvements in conditions, not going to work for peanuts or playing into the hands of management.

This bit is correct , blaming the bottom 500 jet pilots in Australia has been done to death , accusing unions of being weak is a reflection on the members not the proffesional union employees or nominated reps . Divide and conquer is alive and well . I’m all right Jack works for the top end of town . Problem is industry wide so I’m guessing the answer will need to involve everyone .

[soseg]

The lowest paid Australian jet pilots in fact have a huge amount of industrial responsibility, because they’re effectively demonstrating what the industry minimum can be for everyone above them. Lower that standard enough, and those 9,500 above you are at risk of losing their work as greedy management break legacy jobs apart and play everyone against each other.

Well said, Pete.

To the network guys - if you vote no to whatever crap they throw at you, what are they going to do?

Who else can they offer it to that's paid less?

You literally have nothing to lose.

[43Inches]

If Qantas pilots go in for an EBA, it only affects them because they’re at the top. No-one below them is affected because they’re currently paid less. If anything, it may help drag others up. What they are doing and accepting is affecting only them.

I'll disagree with this point only, in that you need the top to keep appreciating as well as the bottom. It keeps a flow of pilots moving towards better conditions and a view of what you can achieve. If the top level is being stomped on what hope has the bottom to get improvements. For the bottom rung to have bargaining power they need something to aim for. Hence everybody in the industry needs to support each other when it comes to PIA and not white ant the others attempt to improve their lot, that is when the word scab comes out. Sadly I see too much bickering within companies own pilot groups aiming at unions and splitting the base when they need to work together, if you can't even grasp the idea of unity within your own company you will never grasp the idea of it needing to be industry wide. So what if there is slightly different views on what scraps you argue over, or this pathetic percentage vs that, its about overall gains.

A good example is QLink vs Rex. With the constant issues between Easterns and Sunstate it is getting to the point where the united SAAB group at Rex will be on equal conditions to a Q400 pilot having already surpassed the Q300 package.

[PoppaJo]

Hence everybody in the industry needs to support each other when it comes to PIA and not white ant the others attempt to improve their lot, that is when the word scab comes out. Sadly I see too much bickering within companies own pilot groups aiming at unions and splitting the base when they need to work together, if you can't even grasp the idea of unity within your own company you will never grasp the idea of it needing to be industry wide.

Pretty much what went on at Jetstar. The book needed to be re written, dollars was just one part. The book is too old, new aircraft coming in for new missions, complete overhaul needed in pretty much all categories in the old agreement. Nobody listened, everyone had so many opinions, zero direction, company was over the moon, and a terrible contract was approved. The company can now increase its margin thanks to that behaviour, further incentivising those at the top.

Don’t fall into the same trap. But you probably will.

[maverick4442]

Could not agree more Pete.

Too many Pilots without a backbone in this Country.
Did we all get into this Industry to earn a average salary?
Is it really worth the time and money to get into an Airline for the Base salary to be average considering the hoops you have to jump through each year Sims,Medicals,working weekends and public holidays?
You cannot go off all the Day off Payments or additional hours picked each month because at the end of the day if it comes to a grinding halt and everything is outsourced you will be paid Base Salary.

Going into work for $350 is a disgrace.
So if you get called into work for a 10 hour duty less tax you will pretty much be working for 20-25 take home to fly a A320.
As long as we have the Majestic Bin Chickens happy eating the chewing gum off the shoes of fellow Pilots what hope does any other subsidiary have.
A large majority of these pilots being A320 network and E190 Bravo have applications into other subsidiary groups paying more when at the end of the day they do not realise they are making it a race to the bottom.
As for the E190 operation so many Expat Captains that have had snouts in the trough for years are happy selling out fellow pilots coming into an airline as a retirement Job for a couple of years before leaving is disgrace.

Respect to the Pilots that have a backbone and got into this Industry to strive for better conditions and pay and to be respected for what you do.

[BuzzBox]

Another one that needs to get down off their pedestal and appreciate the fact that not everyone has the same "choice". Curious to know what these so-called "pilots that have a backbone" have managed to achieve, other than feather their own nests at the expense of everyone else.

[maverick4442]

Another one that needs to get down off their pedestal and appreciate the fact that not everyone has the same "choice". Curious to know what these so-called "pilots that have a backbone" have managed to achieve, other than feather their own nests at the expense of everyone else.


You always have a “choice”
No one makes you sign the dotted line.
No one makes you vote Yes/No with contract Negotiations.

If you had a “backbone” you would not sign a rubbish agreement making it a total race to the bottom.

As for “gun to our head” you always have a choice my friend…

[BuzzBox]

And where was that so-called "backbone" when mainline pilots signed new agreements to fly their shiny new jets, hmmm?
Did they have a choice?
Did someone make them sign the dotted line?
Did someone make them vote "Yes"?

It's about time those who hold privileged positions in the Qantas Group stopped denigrating their "lesser" colleagues with pejorative terms such as "bin chicken" or "sc@b". Most pilots I know try to make the best of the choices that are available to them.

BTW, I do not work for Qantas or any of its subsidiaries.

[tossbag]

The lowest paid Australian jet pilots in fact have a huge amount of industrial responsibility, because they’re effectively demonstrating what the industry minimum can be for everyone above them. Lower that standard enough, and those 9,500 above you are at risk of losing their work as greedy management break legacy jobs apart and play everyone against each other.

You CANNOT be serious?

Have a look at what a Qantas pilot was paid, in real terms, 25 years ago and tell me who's gone further backwards, the Qantas pilot or the "lowest paid Australian jet pilot." You're kidding yourself mate.

[Hawk Circle]

You always have a “choice”
No one makes you sign the dotted line.
No one makes you vote Yes/No with contract Negotiations.

If you had a “backbone” you would not sign a rubbish agreement making it a total race to the bottom.
Where did the QF SO B-Scale come from…:ugh:

[ScepticalOptomist]

You CANNOT be serious?

Have a look at what a Qantas pilot was paid, in real terms, 25 years ago and tell me who's gone further backwards, the Qantas pilot or the "lowest paid Australian jet pilot." You're kidding yourself mate.

Due to…?

It’s a circular argument. Depends which side of the fence you’re on as to the perspective of the problem.

[tossbag]

It’s a circular argument. Depends which side of the fence you’re on as to the perspective of the problem.

Yes, very much so. But for someone to put the race to the bottom onto pilots below them, that's bull****. "Lowest paid jet pilots" are in that position for a number of reasons and it's NOT because they are lesser pilots than those at Qantas. What an absolute bull**** post.

[maverick4442]

And where was that so-called "backbone" when mainline pilots signed new agreements to fly their shiny new jets, hmmm?
Did they have a choice?
Did someone make them sign the dotted line?
Did someone make them vote "Yes"?

It's about time those who hold privileged positions in the Qantas Group stopped denigrating their "lesser" colleagues with pejorative terms such as "bin chicken" or "sc@b". Most pilots I know try to make the best of the choices that are available to them.

BTW, I do not work for Qantas or any of its subsidiaries.

So you are saying it is a privelage to work under an agreement that has pay and conditions that are above Network and Bravo Airlines?
if so we are all doomed and you have no respect for the profession.
Working under a contract that is rubbish drags every other agreement down setting a precedent that pilots are worth nothing.
I sure as hell didn’t get into this industry to go to work and give away conditions and pay because honestly who would jump through the hoops and invest all the time effort and money we did to get into an airline for rubbish conditions.

I think it was garbage that the seconds officers on the A350 contract are on a B scale again threat to give the work to Network.
I’m pretty sure though the conditions and pay would still be above network as a SO.
I also think it was garbage that the A321xlr contract got voted in 80 something percent with the threat of handing it to Network if it was not signed. Giving away conditions for what? 20 aircraft not even 1-1 replacement of the 737.

You always have a choice when voting when will pilots grow a set and stand up and say enough is enough and work under a contract that doesn’t undercut others and actually be happy to go to work under a EA.
Sadly I see way too many people just in it for themselves happy to do anything to fly a jet undercutting anyone that gets in the way.
doesn’t help that upper management play groups off against each other but when do you say this has gone too far and we have to say NO.

[JPJP]

Another one that needs to get down off their pedestal and appreciate the fact that not everyone has the same "choice". Curious to know what these so-called "pilots that have a backbone" have managed to achieve, other than feather their own nests at the expense of everyone else.

- United Airlines pilots voted no on their contract in 2022.

- Delta Air Lines pilots voted no on their contract in 2015.

- Southwest Airlines pilots vote no on their contract in 2015.

N.B. The subsequently renegotiated contracts were substantially better than the first offer. United pilots are now negotiating in a more favorable environment due to Deltas new contract. All of their contacts exceed Qantas mainline. Both then and now.

[BuzzBox]

So you are saying it is a privelage to work under an agreement that has pay and conditions that are above Network and Bravo Airlines?
if so we are all doomed and you have no respect for the profession.


I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it's about time self-righteous :mad: who enjoy such pay and conditions stopped abusing those who don't. I have no problem with pilots trying to protect their pay and conditions. I do have a problem with those who expect others to take a stand, but who aren't prepared to do so themselves.

As for not having "respect for the profession", a 40-year career in the "profession" says otherwise.

[soseg]

Do people actually know what the average FT Aussie wage is in Australia?

$93,000

I’ll bet most reading this won’t know that and will be surprised that it’s so close to six figures.

And here we have people coming in for $360/day before tax to fly 180 lives around in a fast, heavy, complex machine that took them years if not decades to get into. Expensive specialised training, checks, study and sacrifices. Up early regularly or away from home often. Changing schedules, MELs, delays, no bonuses. Daily dynamic working environment throwing all sorts of crap at you that is trying to potentially kill you and the 180 or so punters behind you. Something broken? Having a ****ty shift? You can’t just get up and walk away from your desk or go outside for a smoko. Nah, you have to think about operational stuff. A long list I could write out that you’re all familiar with of crap pilots deal with daily. You’re not driving a bus you can’t just pull over when conditions aren’t favourable and not think about things like fuel. Oh, and the cyclics etc to keep your job.

And you’re willing to do that and sacrifice a day off for 1/3rd the pay of the guys next door?

How much better off are you financially when comparing yourself to $93,000 a year?

[Icarus2001]

I don’t disagree with your point. Comparisons are odious.

Averages are funny things, mean, mode and median.

This page says the median is $64,000 pa

https://studyworkgrow.com.au/2023/01/12/what-is-the-median-salary-in-australia/

Regardless of definition, it is clear that pilot wages have not kept pace with the general trend.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Do people actually know what the average FT Aussie wage is in Australia?

$93,000

I’ll bet most reading this won’t know that and will be surprised that it’s so close to six figures.

And here we have people coming in for $360/day before tax to fly 180 lives around in a fast, heavy, complex machine that took them years if not decades to get into. Expensive specialised training, checks, study and sacrifices. Up early regularly or away from home often. Changing schedules, MELs, delays, no bonuses. Daily dynamic working environment throwing all sorts of crap at you that is trying to potentially kill you and the 180 or so punters behind you. Something broken? Having a ****ty shift? You can’t just get up and walk away from your desk or go outside for a smoko. Nah, you have to think about operational stuff. A long list I could write out that you’re all familiar with of crap pilots deal with daily. You’re not driving a bus you can’t just pull over when conditions aren’t favourable and not think about things like fuel. Oh, and the cyclics etc to keep your job.

And you’re willing to do that and sacrifice a day off for 1/3rd the pay of the guys next door?

How much better off are you financially when comparing yourself to $93,000 a year?

Anyone going in for $360 to fly a jet needs to be taken out back and beaten by a union rep...
This is absolutely disgusting. I can name numerous unskilled jobs I have done to pay for my flight training that paid more than $360 a day!

[43Inches]

Day off callout pay should average at least double your daily pay rate, ideally an hourly rate based on duty time. You allow that to stay as is and your company will never employ enough pilots and just keep using the cheap labor that will work a day off for less than their normal work day pay. Most turboprop FOs earn more than that on a callout. Remember that working days off or on leave doesn't add to your super or leave etc, etc, unless its specifically in the EBA, so you lose more than just a day off for a days pay.

[PPRuNeUser01531]

She's all over boys. Pin your wings on the kitchen curtain. Pilotless big birds will be plying the airways long before jet jocks show any semblance of unity.

[Icarus2001]

Yeah, right after the driverless trains and crew free cargo ships on the high seas.

[Capn Bloggs]

You didn't get that, did you Iccy? ;)

[lemel]

It all comes down to two things:

1. Supply and demand. This is a major one. We see it unfolding in the US right now. Wind the clock back 10-15 years and there were regional pilots in the US earning peanuts. Now their salaries have increased significantly and are getting $100,000 sign-on bonuses. Not even mentioning what is going at the majors and the freight operators. I don't think Australia will ever get such a shortage but who knows, I've been wrong countless times when it comes to this industry.

2. The industrial landscape. Take Virgin as an example. Fair Work would have terminated their EA if the company had applied for it - as a pilot group, you don't really have the upper hand or many options if presented with this option. Now Labour is in government and have changed the industrial landscape in favour of the workers and not the companies. Hopefully as an industry we can all claw back some conditions.

All the rest is mostly just white noise and calling the bluff of the company or vice versa.

So chill out everyone. If it all falls in a heap there are plenty of other jobs in other industries that pay better, work regular hours, weekends off, public holidays off and you can actually plan you holidays and get leave when you want. Aviation is a **** sandwich - we all keep taking bites and then get surprised with the taste.

[maverick4442]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it's about time self-righteous :mad: who enjoy such pay and conditions stopped abusing those who don't. I have no problem with pilots trying to protect their pay and conditions. I do have a problem with those who expect others to take a stand, but who aren't prepared to do so themselves.

As for not having "respect for the profession", a 40-year career in the "profession" says otherwise.

I disagree with you Buzz
Pilots working at Network are abusing all the Pilots working in the Industry.
$500 a day for a Captain and $307 for a First Officer on a day off is a slap in the face to all Pilots in the industry.
Did I miss the memo that this is the going rate for a A320 Pilot?
What do you think will happen at EA negotiating for all groups in Australia if crew are willing to work for this.

Congratulations 40 years
Not making the industry a complete race to the bottom is having Respect.

[RealSatoshi]

Testing Understanding:
At Group Companies, when accepting the $'s to fly on an OFF day, do you take the $'s in lieu of the OFF day that you loose...or do you take the $'s + get the OFF day back in lieu?

[Australopithecus]

” It depends” On an x day you get both, but only if you are at minimum days off.

I get around $1400 minimum for a day off which I almost never accept.

[propaganda]

” It depends” On an x day you get both, but only if you are at minimum days off.

I get around $1400 minimum for a day off which I almost never accept.

And that’s the thing - it’s optional, you don’t have to work a day off. If the company is so short of pilots that requires it to make frequent requests to work a “ day off / rest day “ simply by not accepting their requests will have the desired effect. The caveat being unity !!

[BuzzBox]

I disagree with you Buzz...

I have said nothing about the rights or wrongs of Network's pay and conditions, so I'm a little confused as to which of my comments you find objectionable. Is it the bit where I said "it's about time self-righteous :mad: who enjoy such pay and conditions stopped abusing those who don't"; or the bit where I said "I do have a problem with those who expect others to take a stand, but who aren't prepared to do so themselves"?

[maverick4442]

I have said nothing about the rights or wrongs of Network's pay and conditions, so I'm a little confused as to which of my comments you find objectionable. Is it the bit where I said "it's about time self-righteous :mad: who enjoy such pay and conditions stopped abusing those who don't"; or the bit where I said "I do have a problem with those who expect others to take a stand, but who aren't prepared to do so themselves"?

“who enjoy such pay and conditions stopped abusing those who don't"

If Network Pilots had Respect for the industry and all others flying the same or similar aircraft they would not get abuse.
But they couldn’t care less they work under a complete rubbish EA making this job a race to the bottom.

[BuzzBox]

If Network Pilots had Respect for the industry and all others flying the same or similar aircraft they would not get abuse.
But they couldn’t care less they work under a complete rubbish EA making this job a race to the bottom.

If you think that heaping abuse and vitriol on a particular group of workers is the way to effect change, then I think you are sadly mistaken. It shows you are nothing more than arrogant, entitled thugs.

[maverick4442]

If you think that heaping abuse and vitriol on a particular group of workers is the way to effect change, then I think you are sadly mistaken. It shows you are nothing more than arrogant, entitled bullies.

What else can other Pilots do when Network pilots happily work under these conditions.
Sit back say nothing and take the pineapple?
They have to be called out!
The truth hurts mate and nothing I have said regarding Network is untrue (My opinion)
You can disagree I couldn’t care less my posts have only had the Pilots interest working in the industry that are fed up with the bottom dwellers happy working for nothing.
The rock bottom contract bring all contract down at negotiation time.
how can you have respect for a Captain or Fo that works a day off (rostering can be up to max duty) for $500 and $306 on a A320.
absolute slap in the face for all pilots flying the same or similar aircraft.


You said in an earlier post that you have 40 years in the industry maybe you should get a job at Network after all you think people shouldn’t say anything to people in jobs that have better conditions and pay than Network.
Bin chicken is an accurate representation of what they are..
look at the contract!



“It shows you are nothing more than arrogant, entitled bullies”

You can’t handle the truth I am calling it for how it is.
Put a skirt on Princess.

[Jc31]

Just a hypothetical question. If a pilot gets knocked back from mainline but gets into network. Should they take the job on the Fokker or airbus or say no and continue flying a king air for 50k a year?

[BuzzBox]

Another hypothetical question: If an experienced pilot with a major airline lost their job during COVID, wanted to continue flying a similar type and wanted to live in Perth because that's where their family is located, what should they do? Accept a job with Network, or give it all away and pack shelves at Woolies/Bunnings/Coles, because some entitled toy-boy might get upset?

[aussieflyboy]

Just a hypothetical question. If a pilot gets knocked back from mainline but gets into network. Should they take the job on the Fokker or airbus or say no and continue flying a king air for 50k a year?

You’ll find an FO spot with Network would be a pay cut compared to most Kingair jobs in Aus.

[airdualbleedfault]

You’ll find an FO spot with Network would be a pay cut compared to most Kingair jobs in Aus.
I call bull5hit

[maverick4442]

Another hypothetical question: If an experienced pilot with a major airline lost their job during COVID, wanted to continue flying a similar type and wanted to live in Perth because that's where their family is located, what should they do? Accept a job with Network, or give it all away and pack shelves at Woolies/Bunnings/Coles, because some entitled toy-boy might get upset?

An experienced pilot coming back to OZ with a major airline overseas would be well aware that the conditions of Network are rubbish.
Is that what you think you are really worth ?
Make it a race to the bottom but don’t complain when you are called a Bin Chicken by fellow Australian Pilots.

[dr dre]

You’ll find an FO spot with Network would be a pay cut compared to most Kingair jobs in Aus.

RFDS King Air base salary $135k (https://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/qld/careers/become-rfds-pilot/) (plus 10s of thousands more in allowances)

Network 5th year FO (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAxNy8zL2FlNDIzNjcwLnBkZg2? sid=&q=Network%24%24aviation%24%24Australia) rate $114k

[Jc31]

Well a chieftain then. Or a caravan. The question is still the same. We all wanted to get into an airline from ga. Easy to throw stones from the top but people have families and mortgages. You guys are saying they shouldn’t accept what might be the only job for them at the time just to stay pure in your eyes. You guys are really out of touch with what’s going on in the real world.

[BuzzBox]

An experienced pilot coming back to OZ with a major airline overseas would be well aware that the conditions of Network are rubbish.
Is that what you think you are really worth ?
Make it a race to the bottom but don’t complain when you are called a Bin Chicken by fellow Australian Pilots.

It's not about me bud, but I know several pilots who were in exactly that position. What would you have them do, take jobs packing shelves, or accept positions at Network, knowing their pay and conditions would be less than those who work at Qantas? Kindly explain what you think they should have done and, more to the point, what would YOU do if you were in their position and unable to secure another airline job in a place where you wanted to live. As I said previously, we all have different circumstances and people make do with the choices they have available at the time.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Well a chieftain then. Or a caravan. The question is still the same. We all wanted to get into an airline from ga. Easy to throw stones from the top but people have families and mortgages. You guys are saying they shouldn’t accept what might be the only job for them at the time just to stay pure in your eyes. You guys are really out of touch with what’s going on in the real world.


Goodluck getting a mortgage on 114k... unless you want to live in Kwinana or Mandurah enjoy the 1 to 2hour commute to Perth airport. I don't think anyone flying a jet expects to be living in Gosnells or Armadale... what an utter disgrace Bin chickens is an insult to actual Bin chickens. Atleast they are some what majestic.
Nothing Majestic about yea I fly an A320 for Qlink and live in Maddington 😂

[maverick4442]

It's not about me bud, but I know several pilots who were in exactly that position. What would you have them do, take jobs packing shelves, or accept positions at Network, knowing their pay and conditions would be less than those who work at Qantas? Kindly explain what you think they should have done and, more to the point, what would YOU do if you were in their position and unable to secure another airline job in a place where you wanted to live. As I said previously, we all have different circumstances and people make do with the choices they have available at the time.

Taking a job at Network is working under conditions that are a slap in the face to all A320 /B737 pilots in the country.
Especially those in the same company that fly similar aircraft or the same and get played off against network at every turn.
I would have thought those guys at Major Airlines overseas only went because of the great conditions and pay and had some self worth when returning to Australia.


Personally if it was me I would have hoped I made hay while the sun was shining when I was overseas.
You would assume going overseas and working for a MAJOR airline would be a great salary and that being a big reason for leaving.

I understand everyone’s circumstances are different but for me I couldn’t stomach working for a company like Network I did not get into this industry to fly a A320 and be treated like trash as per the EA.

As long as we have people willing to work for nothing aviation in Australia it will continue to be a race to the bottom.

Yes everyone has different circumstances and the choice you make is going to be different to others.
I totally get that.

But again don’t complain when others talk about Network Pilots as Bin Chickens because you know this before you even start…

[maverick4442]

Goodluck getting a mortgage on 114k... unless you want to live in Kwinana or Mandurah enjoy the 1 to 2hour commute to Perth airport. I don't think anyone flying a jet expects to be living in Gosnells or Armadale... what an utter disgrace Bin chickens is an insult to actual Bin chickens. Atleast they are some what majestic.
Nothing Majestic about yea I fly an A320 for Qlink and live in Maddington 😂

Could not agree more!
Insult to the actual Bin Chickens!

[BuzzBox]

Which just goes to show that you have no clue about the circumstances faced by some pilots who were forced to return to Australia after losing their jobs during the pandemic. Many of those pilots were FOs with young families and the younger guys that I know were certainly NOT in a position to come home and put their feet up. I am willing to bet that if you were in their position, you would have done exactly the same and gone to Network if the only alternative was to take another job that paid even less. So get down off your pedestal and understand that we do NOT all have the same choices.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Which just goes to show that you have no clue about the circumstances faced by some pilots who were forced to return to Australia after losing their jobs during the pandemic. Many of those pilots were FOs with young families and the younger guys that I know were certainly NOT in a position to come home and put their feet up. I am willing to bet that if you were in their position, you would have done exactly the same and gone to Network if the only alternative was to take another job that paid even less. So get down off your pedestal and understand that we do NOT all have the same choices.
I think most people on this thread understand that. But I think the bigger issue is the sycophants who go into fly an a320 for $360... There is a difference between accepting a job for the time being and then accepting $360 to fly an A320 on a day off. You can earn $360 + a day driving forklifts at Toll on Horrie miller drive. You can get $42 an hour as a trailer tug driver at Toll. Everyone has had to take jobs that are less than ideal, but then to encourage managenent that the EA is more than desirable is wrong.

[maverick4442]

Which just goes to show that you have no clue about the circumstances faced by some pilots who were forced to return to Australia after losing their jobs during the pandemic. Many of those pilots were FOs with young families and the younger guys that I know were certainly NOT in a position to come home and put their feet up. I am willing to bet that if you were in their position, you would have done exactly the same and gone to Network if the only alternative was to take another job that paid even less. So get down off your pedestal and understand that we do NOT all have the same choices.

I am telling you right now i would not have come back and went to Network.
Re-read my previous post I stated that.

like you said everyone’s circumstances are different but one I could not stomach.
I would be happy doing what I had to do outside of aviation because if I was at Network I would hate going to work.
That is me though we are all different.

[BuzzBox]

I am telling you right now i would not have come back and went to Network.

Of course you wouldn’t…:rolleyes:

[maverick4442]

Of course you wouldn’t…:rolleyes:

You asked me I told you two times.


Got your answer though!
You would Definitely come back to a rubbish A320 job in Australia.

[RealSatoshi]

But I think the bigger issue is the sycophants who go into fly an a320 for $360... There is a difference between accepting a job for the time being and then accepting $360 to fly an A320 on a day off. You can earn $360 + a day...
Let's start by saying that I do not condone the Network conditions, so put the knives away...but the statement above is technically incorrect.

AFAIK the Network crews are being paid whatever the amount is, not to work on an OFF day, but for the inconvenience of having their OFF day moved out to a different day which is mutually acceptable to both parties. Thus they are not being paid X to fly and A320 on an OFF day, but being paid X to fly on a rostered OFF day (if they want - it's a choice) and then having the OFF day rescheduled to a different time, such as turning a 2 day weekend into a 3 day weekend et al.

[aussieflyboy]

Let's start by saying that I do not condone the Network conditions, so put the knives away...but the statement above is technically incorrect.

AFAIK the Network crews are being paid whatever the amount is, not to work on an OFF day, but for the inconvenience of having their OFF day moved out to a different day which is mutually acceptable to both parties. Thus they are not being paid X to fly and A320 on an OFF day, but being paid X to fly on a rostered OFF day (if they want - it's a choice) and then having the OFF day rescheduled to a different time, such as turning a 2 day weekend into a 3 day weekend et al.

You realise every other Jet airline Pilot in Aus gets to ‘move their day off’ or Bank the day for later use or Annual leave and ALSO gets over $1,000…

[kimbobimbo]

You realise every other Jet airline Pilot in Aus gets to ‘move their day off’ or Bank the day for later use or Annual leave and ALSO gets over $1,000…

Not from what my mate tells me, he works at jq They loose the day off, an important difference. I think you’ve got your facts wrong there pal, or else my mate is wrong…
Also you probably haven’t read the rostering protocol which forms part of the ea. Not saying it’d change your views but it’s part of the deal.

[soseg]

Look, ladies. I think all the logical people here understand some guys didn’t get kissed on the dick and make it into mainline. Some had no choice during Covid while others are simply upgrading from some pineapple bare bones GA operator flying pistons and filth in the outback. Fine. Nobody is personally hating on them. All the network pilots I talk to aren’t happy. They have applications in with Atlas or somewhere in the sandpit and are ready to go if QF gives them a no. Also, they hate the conditions and indicate to me they are willing to fight.

The argument I think that we need to stick to here is this:

Fight this time around. Don’t be afraid to say no. There’s nothing they can do if you say no. They won’t undercut you with another entity. They’ve already announced more a320s anyway. You’re safe.

Secondly, stop saving their arses when others go sick. $360 or whatever it is, is a joke. Just fly what you’re rostered. Do the minimum.

Not your problem. Don’t feel bad if they cancel a flight. Nobody is dying. Let management deal with it if they can’t crew it.

Go remind yourselves how much profit they make off those mining contracts. They’re milking it. And exploiting you as a result. The fact that the 737 drivers are unhappy should be an indication how much much worse you should feel.

Just stop helping them out. Not your problem. Go chill on the beach instead.

When the crap hits the fan at QF and nobody has put their hand up on the 737 to save them the next day then their schedulers come to the table and have agreed to some juicy favours that pilots there have demanded. If not, hang up. If they care about not cancelling then you’d be surprised what they’ll pay.

[Jc31]

Look, ladies. I think all the logical people here understand some guys didn’t get kissed on the dick and make it into mainline. Some had no choice during Covid while others are simply upgrading from some pineapple bare bones GA operator flying pistons and filth in the outback. Fine. Nobody is personally hating on them. All the network pilots I talk to aren’t happy. They have applications in with Atlas or somewhere in the sandpit and are ready to go if QF gives them a no. Also, they hate the conditions and indicate to me they are willing to fight.

The argument I think that we need to stick to here is this:

Fight this time around. Don’t be afraid to say no. There’s nothing they can do if you say no. They won’t undercut you with another entity. They’ve already announced more a320s anyway. You’re safe.

Secondly, stop saving their arses when others go sick. $360 or whatever it is, is a joke. Just fly what you’re rostered. Do the minimum.

Not your problem. Don’t feel bad if they cancel a flight. Nobody is dying. Let management deal with it if they can’t crew it.

Go remind yourselves how much profit they make off those mining contracts. They’re milking it. And exploiting you as a result. The fact that the 737 drivers are unhappy should be an indication how much much worse you should feel.

Just stop helping them out. Not your problem. Go chill on the beach instead.

When the crap hits the fan at QF and nobody has put their hand up on the 737 to save them the next day then their schedulers come to the table and have agreed to some juicy favours that pilots there have demanded. If not, hang up. If they care about not cancelling then you’d be surprised what they’ll pay.

this is the way the argument should be put forward. Thank you for that

[Jc31]

Goodluck getting a mortgage on 114k... unless you want to live in Kwinana or Mandurah enjoy the 1 to 2hour commute to Perth airport. I don't think anyone flying a jet expects to be living in Gosnells or Armadale... what an utter disgrace Bin chickens is an insult to actual Bin chickens. Atleast they are some what majestic.
Nothing Majestic about yea I fly an A320 for Qlink and live in Maddington 😂
you really are a POS. Now youre bagging out people based on which suburbs they live in. You must be an absolute pleasure to know 😒

[RealSatoshi]

If Network Pilots had Respect for the industry and all others flying the same or similar aircraft they would not get abuse.
But they couldn’t care less they work under a complete rubbish EA making this job a race to the bottom.
Is this the same reason why a B-Scale QF Year 3 A380 SO earns 25% LESS than a A-Scale QF Year 3 A380 SO...so the big boys could get their A350's :=

[Gnadenburg]

I remember late 90’s, QF cadets fed into Domestic on a slightly reduced contract. Probably about 10% less than Ansett F/O’s. Of course, that was nothing compared to the champions who followed at Virgin Blue.

There’s always someone in aviation who will be getting paid less than you. Follow the money, invest hard and be wary of Chalmers and Albo taking it off you.

Network would have a bunch of former expats, some well set up, even double digit millionaires from their time abroad in Hong Kong. They’ve probably seen a lot more industrially than loud Aussies blowing the whistle here, hoping others go over the trench ahead of them. Wasn’t long ago supermarkets and Bunnings full of QF pilots- just feeding their families of course.

[soseg]

Is this the same reason why a B-Scale QF Year 3 A380 SO earns 25% LESS than a A-Scale QF Year 3 A380 SO...so the big boys could get their A350's :=

“Guys, I can’t make this any clearer. This is the offer. Take it or leave it. No negotiating. We have strategic imperatives that need to be met. If you vote this down we will start up another entity and get someone else to fly the A350s.” - Tino La Spina, the Long Haul CEO during the EBA negotiations in late 2019 / early 2020.

That’s basically a direct quote.

[soseg]

Network would have a bunch of former expats, some well set up, even double digit millionaires from their time abroad in Hong Kong. They’ve probably seen a lot more industrially than loud Aussies blowing the whistle here, hoping others go over the trench ahead of them. Wasn’t long ago supermarkets and Bunnings full of QF pilots- just feeding their families of course.

Double digit millionaires?

Who come in multiple times a week at 4am to fly half broken A320s and doing day waits for NAA pay?
Risk coming into work so they can break down in Newman or Paraburdoo and have to sleep on the aircraft or ARO’s couch?

Why?

Surely they’d be on their boat sinking tinnies off Rottnest?

With “double digit millions” it’s an even bigger undercut of the industry to bother coming in for such a job to help contribute to keep conditions and pay so low. What expenses or mortgages could they possibly have?

Literally the definition of a bin chicken.

[morno]

I think you’ve made your point, but who are you to decide when someone should stop working?

Everyone is all talk until they’re put in the position of not having money to pay the mortgage or feed the family, and then they deny ever having said anything like the above and will take the job.

[Slippery_Pete]

To the network guys - if you vote no to whatever crap they throw at you, what are they going to do?

Who else can they offer it to that's paid less?

You literally have nothing to lose.

Head meet nail.

Perhaps if NAA pilots grow a pair and hold out for more, they’ll actually realise they deserve more and put themselves and their family in a better financial position. I certainly wish them well.

​​​​​​​Because some entitled toy-boy might get upset?

I don’t work for QF, nor a subsidiary. But I can tell you this - the only thing easier to spot on Pprune than a mainline pilot… is a non-mainline pilot who didn’t make it through the QF selection process and rather than get over it, has decided to carry a huge chip on their shoulder.

The sooner you realise all the other airline pilots in Australia want better conditions for you, the sooner you’ll put down your sword and stop playing victim.

Let’s talk about what you’re worth! How about:

a) 20% instant pay rise, plus
b) 3% increments
c) Call-outs $1500 PIC, $1000 FO

[43Inches]

I think you’ve made your point, but who are you to decide when someone should stop working?

Everyone is all talk until they’re put in the position of not having money to pay the mortgage or feed the family, and then they deny ever having said anything like the above and will take the job.

Except that right here and right now any pilot with a few hundred hours and a pulse can pick and choose who they want to work for and don't have to accept the low ball conditions of the abusive operators. Right now you can show them how you feel about their conditions by not even sending in resumes and just aiming for the well paying operators.

[BuzzBox]

...a non-mainline pilot who didn’t make it through the QF selection process and rather than get over it, has decided to carry a huge chip on their shoulder.

If that jibe was intended as a description of me, then I suggest you try again, LOL...:rolleyes:

[soseg]

I think you’ve made your point, but who are you to decide when someone should stop working?

Everyone is all talk until they’re put in the position of not having money to pay the mortgage or feed the family, and then they deny ever having said anything like the above and will take the job.

When you’re a double digit millionaire with no mortgage or expenses and you’re contributing to bringing down the pay and conditions of the battlers below you who have no choice but to take a job at NAA. That’s when one would decide to stop working an underpaid exploitative job.

Everyone is all talk until they have no money? Are you thick? Read my comment. It was in reply to the “double digit millionaires”. Are you blind? Do you need crutches for your eyes?

[maverick4442]

When you’re a double digit millionaire with no mortgage or expenses and you’re contributing to bringing down the pay and conditions of the battlers below you who have no choice but to take a job at NAA. That’s when one would decide to stop working an underpaid exploitative job.

Everyone is all talk until they have no money? Are you thick? Read my comment. It was in reply to the “double digit millionaires”. Are you blind? Do you need crutches for your eyes?

Double digit Millionaire coming back to Australia working for Network Aviation is nothing more than a Bin Chicken!
No respect for the industry!

[maverick4442]

If that jibe was intended as a description of me, then I suggest you try again, LOL...:rolleyes:


You have already swooped in and taken the chip after trying to justify making this industry a race to the bottom after you previous comments Buzz (LOL)

[RealSatoshi]

“Guys, I can’t make this any clearer. This is the offer. Take it or leave it. No negotiating. We have strategic imperatives that need to be met. If you vote this down we will start up another entity and get someone else to fly the A350s.” - Tino La Spina, the Long Haul CEO during the EBA negotiations in late 2019 / early 2020.
The reality is that, as things stand, there is absolutely NOTHING in place at any group company to prevent this from happening again tomorrow, next week or next month...NOTHING :=

The Alliance, Skippers, Maroomba, PenJet etc crews are ready and willing to transition to whatever QF will throw their way at current rates...they all have families to feed and career aspirations in tow.

Start thinking years ahead of IR Extortionists or you will, over time, loose it all...i.e The LITTLE that is still left.

[BuzzBox]

You have already swooped in and taken the chip after trying to justify making this industry a race to the bottom after you previous comments Buzz (LOL)

If you believe my appeal for a little civility was me "trying to justify making this industry a race to the bottom", then you clearly have the thought processes of a juvenile. Grow up.

[maverick4442]

If you believe my appeal for a little civility was me "trying to justify making this industry a race to the bottom", then you clearly have the thought processes of a juvenile. Grow up.

Buzz
You would have seen the decline in conditions and pay in 40 years you have been in the industry, why not try and stop the freight train and preserve the little we got left.
Surely you can see that working at Network is a bullet train to the bottom.

We can agree to disagree for what it is worth

[Sparrows.]

All this bin chicken talk sums up why conditions have been on a continual decline.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the individuals making decisions to take jobs to feed their family’s.

It does however show the fractions and infighting amongst the pilot community, by the calling of names and questionings others decisions.

We will only get ahead in the industry if we stay united and work together.

Gotta cut out all the kindergarten name calling ladies and gentlemen.

If Alan read this page he’d just laugh.

Strength in solidarity is the only way forward.

[tiger-palm]

All this bin chicken talk sums up why conditions have been on a continual decline.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the individuals making decisions to take jobs to feed their family’s.

It does however show the fractions and infighting amongst the pilot community, by the calling of names and questionings others decisions.

We will only get ahead in the industry if we stay united and work together.

Gotta cut out all the kindergarten name calling ladies and gentlemen.

If Alan read this page he’d just laugh.

Strength in solidarity is the only way forward.

That’s wishful thinking… the only way conditions will improve is when the jets are sitting on the ground - just look at the US regionals as an example.

[neville_nobody]

With “double digit millions” it’s an even bigger undercut of the industry to bother coming in for such a job to help contribute to keep conditions and pay so low. What expenses or mortgages could they possibly have?

Yep these guys are everywhere. Their entire identity is about being a pilot and they can’t/won’t let go. So it’s not about the money at all for these types it’s about their entire existence. The bad news is they usually hang onto until either they fail a Sim or a medical.

If I was cashed up from an overseas gig I personally would not be in a job where I have to wake up at 0300 on a regular basis. For most rational folks the whole reason you get yourself into a strong financial position is so you don’t have to do that. But pilots are not always rational……

[Captn Rex Havack]

Time for a career change. Anyone know what Ts and Cs are like at Network?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Time for a career change. Anyone know what Ts and Cs are like at Network?

500 000 per annum, pre tax of course - First year FO wage
Limo chauffeured to work each morning
A uniform so sharp it has a PHD from Cambridge.
1 day on, 13 days off.
Great inclusive, relaxing management.

You should apply.

Oh you have to know how to speak airbus - which will exclude you.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Man flex 65, SRS, runway, autothrust blue!

[Gnadenburg]

Yep these guys are everywhere. Their entire identity is about being a pilot and they can’t/won’t let go. So it’s not about the money at all for these types it’s about their entire existence. The bad news is they usually hang onto until either they fail a Sim or a medical.

If I was cashed up from an overseas gig I personally would not be in a job where I have to wake up at 0300 on a regular basis. For most rational folks the whole reason you get yourself into a strong financial position is so you don’t have to do that. But pilots are not always rational……

They probably just like flying aeroplanes and whilst financially secure, the industry may have a different perspective to what an Aussie mortgage battler may be experiencing and aspiring for.

I empathise. I had the similar frustrations when Virgin Blue pilots entered the scene.

Abusing Network pilot here, just proves what industrial eunuchs many are.

[Icarus2001]

He actually says….”these are substantial salaries, they are not, you know, your average blue collar worker.”

How you choose to interpret that is up to you.