Helicopters mothballed without seeing any service.

[dctyke]

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-mothballs-h135s-bought-to-replace-gazelle-helicopter-fleet/151941.article

[PPRuNeUser0211]

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-mothballs-h135s-bought-to-replace-gazelle-helicopter-fleet/151941.article
Behind a paywall for me, got a quote

[NutLoose]

Re ‘Project Matcha Gotcha’
UK procurement officials are facing awkward questions over acquisition policy after it emerged that a fleet of Airbus Helicopters H135s purchased as replacements for the British Army’s elderly Gazelles has been mothballed before ever seeing active use.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) in October 2021 (https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-selects-h135s-to-replace-british-armys-elderly-gazelle-helicopters/147273.article) awarded Airbus Helicopters a contract for the “procurement of aircraft”, later confirmed to be for five H135 light-twins, all of which were delivered in 2022.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/1/3/4/92134_gazellelorescairteamimages_801924_crop.jpg

Source: AirTeamImages

H135s were due to replace elderly Gazelle fleet

Acquired under a requirement known as ‘Project Matcha’, the helicopters were due to replace the Gazelles being flown in Northern Ireland.

However, the H135s have never seen operational service and are instead being placed into long-term storage, two sources with knowledge of the matter have confirmed to FlightGlobal.

This is due to the improved security situation in Northern Ireland which has removed the requirement for helicopter flights, the sources indicate.

Defence officials are now considering a range of options for the H135s, which could include a sale or lease back to Airbus Helicopters or a transfer to the National Police Air Service, which already operates H135s.

The cost of the H135s has not been disclosed, nor if they have had any mission equipment installed.

The MoD declines to comment.

[chevvron]

Might as well give 'em to Ukraine; they've got everything else.
Alternatively maybe 84 Sqdn could use them.

[minigundiplomat]

Where have the Australians sent all their partially used NH90 and Tigre to? maybe we can dump more airbus stuff there?

[chopper2004]

Might as well give 'em to Ukraine; they've got everything else.
Alternatively maybe 84 Sqdn could use them.

According to RAF Benson FB page theres five Pumas from Benson replacing the 412 =AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=-UC%2CP-R]RAF Benson (https://www.facebook.com/RAFBenson?__cft__[0)
·
Today RAF Benson waved goodbye to two of the Station’s Pumas as they began their journey to Akrotiri in Cyprus to join 84 Squadron. RAF Benson will soon have 3 Pumas in Cyprus conducting various air operations in the Mediterranean.
We will be reporting on their progress over the next few days as they complete the 2,000+ mile journey across Europe.
=AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=*NK-R]#Puma (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/puma?__eep__=6&__cft__[0) =AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=*NK-R]#TeamBenson (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/teambenson?__eep__=6&__cft__[0) =AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=*NK-R]#RAFAkrotiri (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/rafakrotiri?__eep__=6&__cft__[0) =AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=*NK-R]#AcrossAllBoundaries (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/acrossallboundaries?__eep__=6&__cft__[0)
=AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=*bH-R]https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/329215952_588254253145681_5041978463033171508_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p600x600&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=SjPineKNXlkAX-wmwPv&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=00_AfD7-XFjJpYa6J4wRHopLIlVJUN94yj-G30Y9C_zPeTtqA&oe=63E7F551 (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=555075993324910&set=pcb.555076963324813&__cft__[0)
=AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=*bH-R]https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/329222534_867627951231878_7588972888152214454_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p600x600&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=_1r6xrlp_K0AX8c9WUm&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=00_AfBioPpFyrYBJ-FoXBwZua5itDa5Hacu7aL9VYeQJwC4YA&oe=63E80EDD (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=555076049991571&set=pcb.555076963324813&__cft__[0)
=AZXq6DdKBJYMp-3MjFYeUhd7iHh0boUOHq93U8xNDxWILjppA73GiHY72TVxpd9bpVB_YNN6de UCzyxaFFFKFXnxT9TeQiqSlQCWcz7fvP28z7iiFb1s7UZ1RcrBDr8bZFG4UZ 396GIFkexqskZz4UhZ_dE2fs8gWoQ9x-Hxyo4km353l6mKMsZH2vjorQDHUHw&__tn__=*bH-R]https://scontent-lhr8-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/329231146_853273745748904_4995583295012789482_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p600x600&_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ZkNSIjUmX2QAX_nhKTV&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-2.xx&oh=00_AfCj05mhqstklukP2EkoM4xSQZ2F8rB9AVjoBRGyWu-aOw&oe=63E74607 (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=555076353324874&set=pcb.555076963324813&__cft__[0)
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All reactions:
372You and 371 others

[ShyTorque]

My first operational type, same squadron, too. I’ve undoubtedly flown some of those actual airframes.

Unfortunately, apart from the photos, the above post showed up as many lines of gobbledygook.

[MPN11]

Unfortunately, apart from the photos, the above post showed up as many lines of gobbledygook.
“That’s a good word, Darling. Remind me to use it more often:”

[NutLoose]

You two need to get a room :E

[chevvron]

My first operational type, same squadron, too. I’ve undoubtedly flown some of those actual airframes.


Might get diverted to Turkey.

[DaveReidUK]

My first operational type, same squadron, too. I’ve undoubtedly flown some of those actual airframes.

Unfortunately, apart from the photos, the above post showed up as many lines of gobbledygook.

If only PPRuNe gave one the ability to edit one's post after the event to improve its readability ...

[MENELAUS]

Might get diverted to Turkey.

From an RAF base in Greek Cyprus to Turkey ? I suppose stranger things have happened. Live in hope.

[NutLoose]

As they are enroute that might not matter?

[212man]

As they are enroute that might not matter?
en-route is a bit grandiose - one night stop, surely?

[chevvron]

So what's happened to the 412's; contract run out?

[Baldeep Inminj]

Yes, 412 contract has run it's course. The H135's that are mothballed are (I believe) ones that were 'sold' from MFTS at Shawbury to be replaced by more H145. This is because some complete morons (Ascent) thought they were suitable for rearcrew training, which they clearly are not. As a result, they also completely unsuitable for SAR Ops on 84 Sqn.

It has been well known for decades that SAR in Cyprus is surprisingly tricky, with glassy seas, horrendous storms and serious performance issues whilst live winching in the hills at altitude. I am very glad to see that the new Puma crews that are going to 84 are first going to 202 for a proper SAR course with overwater, wet winching and deck training as per the old SAR course, emergencies whilst live winching etc - the things that the ex-SAR crews on 84 all had, and which kept them alive. It takes a long time to learn and years to master. They will be doing the SAR role, so they need the skills to achieve the job and to stay alive.

Oh sorry, I forgot myself for a moment - of course they aren't. A quick winching famil and they are off. I appeal to the wives/partners of the 84 Sqn crews - when they splash a Puma in glassy conditions or at night, ask the Coroner what SAR, overwater, low reference training they received, because the military know it is a requirement for safe operation, but won't pay for it.
Puma to Cyprus - sure, I have no issue with that, but the Military are rapidly forgetting the skills required to operate safely over water, low references - it kills people. There is a unit at RAF Valley (202 Sqn) that still retains some true experts from the SAR days - for the love of God, use them properly and train properly, if not the consequences will be squarely on the heads of thiose that chose the easy option.

The MoD have a unit that can properly train all crews going to 84 to ensure they have a chance to survive the surprisingly dangerous environment they are going to, but they won't use it properly.

202 Sqn should train, test and approve every single aircrew member for Cyprus. Anything else is a dereliction of Duty by 22 Gp, JHC and the MAA.

[chevvron]

I had a short flight with 84 Sqdn when I was at Akrotiri for easter camp back in 1986; course they were flying Wessex in those days.(Yes I did see the knickers)
Can't help thinking it might have been easier to stick the Puma(s) in a C17 rather than fly them all the way to Cyprus; that last leg (overwater avoiding Turkish airspace) could be a bit dodgy.
I have a great affection for Pumas; I did a flight out of Farnborough in a Puma with Andy Warner (who later became CTP of Eurocopter) in the right hand seat (I was left hand seat) low level around Salisbury Plain in one below the treetops.

[pr00ne]

Yes, 412 contract has run it's course. The H135's that are mothballed are (I believe) ones that were 'sold' from MFTS at Shawbury to be replaced by more H145. This is because some complete morons (Ascent) thought they were suitable for rearcrew training, which they clearly are not. As a result, they also completely unsuitable for SAR Ops on 84 Sqn.

It has been well known for decades that SAR in Cyprus is surprisingly tricky, with glassy seas, horrendous storms and serious performance issues whilst live winching in the hills at altitude. I am very glad to see that the new Puma crews that are going to 84 are first going to 202 for a proper SAR course with overwater, wet winching and deck training as per the old SAR course, emergencies whilst live winching etc - the things that the ex-SAR crews on 84 all had, and which kept them alive. It takes a long time to learn and years to master. They will be doing the SAR role, so they need the skills to achieve the job and to stay alive.

Oh sorry, I forgot myself for a moment - of course they aren't. A quick winching famil and they are off. I appeal to the wives/partners of the 84 Sqn crews - when they splash a Puma in glassy conditions or at night, ask the Coroner what SAR, overwater, low reference training they received, because the military know it is a requirement for safe operation, but won't pay for it.
Puma to Cyprus - sure, I have no issue with that, but the Military are rapidly forgetting the skills required to operate safely over water, low references - it kills people. There is a unit at RAF Valley (202 Sqn) that still retains some true experts from the SAR days - for the love of God, use them properly and train properly, if not the consequences will be squarely on the heads of thiose that chose the easy option.

The MoD have a unit that can properly train all crews going to 84 to ensure they have a chance to survive the surprisingly dangerous environment they are going to, but they won't use it properly.

202 Sqn should train, test and approve every single aircrew member for Cyprus. Anything else is a dereliction of Duty by 22 Gp, JHC and the MAA.

Wrong. The H135 in storage are the new build bought direct from Airbus to replace the AAC Gazelles used by 5 Rgt at Aldergrove.

The extra helicopters bought by Ascent were for use by No. 1 FTS to support an increased throughput.

[Baldeep Inminj]

Wrong. The H135 in storage are the new build bought direct from Airbus to replace the AAC Gazelles used by 5 Rgt at Aldergrove.

The extra helicopters bought by Ascent were for use by No. 1 FTS to support an increased throughput.


Thanks for the clarification - so the 1st sentence I wrote, in which I clearly said 'I believe' because I was not sure, is incorrect, hence why I said 'I believe' and not 'I know'. You have been very helpful.

However, your statement is misleading. The extra 145's were bought because Ascent selected the H135 for rearcrew training, despite people informing them at them that it was unfit for purpose. They then needed to buy additional H145's to train rearcrew as they finally were forced to admit, after many months of insisting the H135 was suitable, that it was not. The H145's were needed so that Ascent could actually train rearcrew.

The H145's were bought so Ascent could actually meet the contract they had signed and this demonstrated beyond doubt the utter incompetence of the Ascent model.

[jayteeto]

I have nearly 4K hours on 135. It’s a fabulous aircraft, but has limits to its mission capabilities. You COULD fit a winch, but the single engine performance is not “all that”.
it excels as a police/AA platform and is reasonable as a corporate machine.

[roger4]

The Gazelles aren't due to be withdrawn from service until March 2024, although the draw down of the remaining few will start before then. The storage of the new H135s may therefore only be temporary, measured in months rather than years.

And given the delays to UK Mil Pilot training, well documented in another thread on here, perhaps they don't yet have the aircrew to fly them?

[NutLoose]

I still think new build Gazelle’s would be a good seller, small, light, uncomplicated and can fit four. Longevity is already proven, I wonder how many 135’s will last the course.

[roger4]

Oldest 135s already have over 25 years on the clock, so not too shabby.

[NutLoose]

en-route is a bit grandiose - one night stop, surely?

It took us two days to just reach Copenhagen, mind you we had to land every hour to check the bims.
I think it was Odi- Halton- Manston- Antwerp- Wildenrath- Gutersloh- Munster- some base I cannot remember- Vaerlose.

[chevvron]

I have nearly 4K hours on 135. It’s a fabulous aircraft, but has limits to its mission capabilities. You COULD fit a winch, but the single engine performance is not “all that”.
it excels as a police/AA platform and is reasonable as a corporate machine.
Whenever the 'Royal' S76 is in use and a personage needs an extra helicopter it's usually a '135 that the operator chooses.

[ShyTorque]

You two need to get a room :E


I’ve probably not been called darling for many, many years but unless mpn11 is a very good looking, willowy blonde female (he’s not!) and I can get permission from my wife (yeh, right!) there’s no chance of that happening! ;)

[chevvron]

I still think new build Gazelle’s would be a good seller, small, light, uncomplicated and can fit four. Longevity is already proven, I wonder how many 135’s will last the course.
Gazelles are 'old' tech; they entered service with the AAC in '77/'78; the latest equivalent offering from Eurocopter/AB is the EC120 (H120?) although even this is no longer produced.
Also the Gazelles in AAC service had much more basic equipment compared to RAF/RN examples in order to be maintained in the field.

[gsa]

Gazelles are 'old' tech; they entered service with the AAC in '77/'78; the latest equivalent offering from Eurocopter/AB is the EC120 (H120?) although even this is no longer produced.
Also the Gazelles in AAC service had much more basic equipment compared to RAF/RN examples in order to be maintained in the field.

That’s interesting, the Navy Gazelles I had a chance to fly in had far less kit than the Army ones and we had, and that was very little.

[Evalu8ter]

GSA,
I assume he's talking about the lack of SAS and Stick Trim on AAC 'Floppies'…..in terms of mission equipment, given that the AAC aircraft had a proper mission rather than just training and communications, I don't doubt they were more comprehensively equipped in other areas.

[golfbananajam]

My first operational type, same squadron, too. I’ve undoubtedly flown some of those actual airframes.

Unfortunately, apart from the photos, the above post showed up as many lines of gobbledygook.


if those flights were out of BBK, then I may well have enjoyed? the trip in the back too.

[NutLoose]

Gazelles are 'old' tech; they entered service with the AAC in '77/'78; the latest equivalent offering from Eurocopter/AB is the EC120 (H120?) although even this is no longer produced.
Also the Gazelles in AAC service had much more basic equipment compared to RAF/RN examples in order to be maintained in the field.

And there is something to be said for "old" tech, it works, it is easy to maintain and it does the job it is designed to do. We are talking military where the aircraft needs to operate in the field possibly in a war situation with not a lot of support. The "Whistling Chicken Leg" as the Army website calls it, still has a place otherwise it would have been gone long ago.
I am still a big fan of steam driven guages BTW and I work on both, A steam driven guage when it goes wrong can be changed or ignored until a replacement comes in, a built in a box with all singing all dancing graphics for everything will need to be pulled out for repair, thus all those intruments that were working on the box are gone as well, and the aircraft is grounded.
I also think there would be a civilian market for them.

BTW, if you want a modernised instrument panel, roomy, seats 5, in an low height, easy access and airy cockpit.;)

https://www.aviatorsmarket.com/detail/aircraft-for-sale/1979-aerospatiale-sa341-gazelle-united-states/6853


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/930x698/image_8291fcde2119b9545625d26de9c1c6acca9fee47.png

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/930x698/image_4aaeb1574df2a91a8d04d32fd9b46285a24d4018.png

[Just This Once...]

...and the crashworthiness of a Renault 4.

[Davef68]

Are these 5 H135s actually in the UK or are they stored at Airbus?

[Bing]

I'm just surprised MOD appears to have acquired a fleet of 5 aircraft in under a decade. Surely that's what we should be celebrating?

[chevvron]

I seem to recall a massive collective lever compared to that one; was that just for the RAF ones then with Navy and AAC (and RM) ones being equipped with the smaller version.?

[diginagain]

I seem to recall a massive collective lever compared to that one; was that just for the RAF ones then with Navy and AAC (and RM) ones being equipped with the smaller version.?
Seat on the left got a smaller one than the seat on the right, making access easier. We got a few toys of our own on that side when they fitted GOA & LWNA, but the rather cumbersome moving map display with its collection of map tiles tended to stay in Flight Stores along with the snowshoes.

[HaveQuick2]

Are these 5 H135s actually in the UK or are they stored at Airbus?

They are all in the UK

[chevvron]

I still think new build Gazelle’s would be a good seller, small, light, uncomplicated and can fit four. Longevity is already proven, I wonder how many 135’s will last the course.
I wonder how many Scouts would have lasted that long had they not been replaced by the Lynx.
Chatting to 656 Sqdn at Farnborough (previously 664 Sqdn) before their enforced move to Netheravon, they told me that with a Scout, you could get squaddies leaping in and out all day with no problem whereas with a Gazelle, it was too easy to put your foot through the floor doing that.

[ShyTorque]

if those flights were out of BBK, then I may well have enjoyed? the trip in the back too.


I did fly in NI for a short time, some of it from the Mill, but most of it was by night in an airframe not configured for pax.

[ShyTorque]

I wonder how many Scouts would have lasted that long had they not been replaced by the Lynx.
Chatting to 656 Sqdn at Farnborough (previously 664 Sqdn) before their enforced move to Netheravon, they told me that with a Scout, you could get squaddies leaping in and out all day with no problem whereas with a Gazelle, it was too easy to put your foot through the floor doing that.

I’d suggest that the aircraft wasn’t really designed for transport of the heavy of boot.

[charliegolf]

I did fly in NI for a short time, some of it from the Mill, but most of it was by night in an airframe not configured for pax.

I assume you'd have to kill me if I asked what it was configured for?:E

CG

[Davef68]

They are all in the UK

Thanks, A little googling finds they have been around since last summer, one even making it to the Farnborough show last year

[HaveQuick2]

G-CMIR MOD RAF Shawbury Jan 2023
G-CMIS MOD RAF Shawbury Jan 2023
G-CMIT MOD RAF Shawbury Jan 2023
G-CMIU MOD RAF Shawbury Feb 2023
G-CMIV Airbus Helicopters UK Kidlington Sep 2022

[ShyTorque]

I assume you'd have to kill me if I asked what it was configured for?:E

CG

Methinks you know already…. ;)

Sightseeing.

[chevvron]

G-CMIR MOD RAF Shawbury Jan 2023
G-CMIS MOD RAF Shawbury Jan 2023
G-CMIT MOD RAF Shawbury Jan 2023
G-CMIU MOD RAF Shawbury Feb 2023
G-CMIV Airbus Helicopters UK Kidlington Sep 2022
Farnborough was July 2022 so what does the Sep 2022 date signify?

[SWBKCB]

G-CMIT was at FAB. G-INFO has them all still registered to Airbus Helicopters, Oxford

[PUP]

Isn't it the case that these airframes were ones which became surplus to requirements at MFTS Shawbury when it was realised somewhat late in the day (the cabin size issue) that they had too many 135s and not enough 145s. Under an apparent MoD/MFTS face-saving arrangement more 145s were procured with the surplus 135s suddenly and conveniently meeting P. MATCHA's requirements. Given that public money has funded all this, it would seem quite appropriate for the airframes to go to NPAS to address some of their woes.

P.

[NutLoose]

Farnborough was July 2022 so what does the Sep 2022 date signify?

Possibly pre delivery prep etc or warranty work?

One thing though, if the MOD has accepted them and put them in storage, the warranty will still be running that would cover parts etc for a period of time, so I would imagine they may be losing out on that too.

[roger4]

Isn't it the case that these airframes were ones which became surplus to requirements at MFTS Shawbury when it was realised somewhat late in the day (the cabin size issue) that they had too many 135s and not enough 145s. Under an apparent MoD/MFTS face-saving arrangement more 145s were procured with the surplus 135s suddenly and conveniently meeting P. MATCHA's requirements. Given that public money has funded all this, it would seem quite appropriate for the airframes to go to NPAS to address some of their woes.

P.

No, the five in question are new-build helis, which came off the production line last year. They are not five of the original Juno's in service at Shawbury with MFTS since 2017/18 (all 29 of which remain in service).

[HaveQuick2]

Farnborough was July 2022 so what does the Sep 2022 date signify?

Last noted date

[sycamore]

Nutty,do you really think anyone in MOD can think about the `future`,apart from their pensions...?

[NutLoose]

True, so true

[JFZ90]

Thanks for the clarification - so the 1st sentence I wrote, in which I clearly said 'I believe' because I was not sure, is incorrect, hence why I said 'I believe' and not 'I know'. You have been very helpful.

However, your statement is misleading. The extra 145's were bought because Ascent selected the H135 for rearcrew training, despite people informing them at them that it was unfit for purpose. They then needed to buy additional H145's to train rearcrew as they finally were forced to admit, after many months of insisting the H135 was suitable, that it was not. The H145's were needed so that Ascent could actually train rearcrew.

The H145's were bought so Ascent could actually meet the contract they had signed and this demonstrated beyond doubt the utter incompetence of the Ascent model.

Out of interest, why was the H135 not suitable for rear crew training - which aspect was not fit for purpose?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

which aspect was not fit for purpose?
Oooh, I would have loved to have a stab at that one but I'm going on holiday tomorrow and I just don't have time to write 2-sides-worth-of-A4-paper in reply to your question. Will have to wait a fortnight (no interweb where I'm going..) before settling in with a large bag of popcorn to see what people write on the subject.

[OvertHawk]

Out of interest, why was the H135 not suitable for rear crew training - which aspect was not fit for purpose?

Very (very) long story short........

The cabin and cabin doors were found to be too small to allow adequate movement, visibility and access for instructors to safely and effectively train and supervise students.

I'm sure someone else can give you chapter and verse but that's what it boils down to.

OH

[Less Hair]

Is the H135 that tight and visibility that bad? In Hunland they are used as ambulance helicopters all over the place, landing at odd and unknown sites and picking up patients including some lying on stretchers.

[EESDL]

what has that got to do with instructing ab-initio crewman the finer art of crewmanery?

[212man]

Is the H135 that tight and visibility that bad? In Hunland they are used as ambulance helicopters all over the place, landing at odd and unknown sites and picking up patients including some lying on stretchers.
Hunland? WTF? That’s ignoring the total irrelevance of the rest of the post.

[nowherespecial]

Lack of suitable space in the back of H135 is by far the primary driver for the H145 requirement. One cannot move freely, instruct, winch or carry spare students in order to demonstrate best practice in an H135. The lack of space in the H135 also means that people are crouching all day which is breaking students and instructors knees and backs and likely creating a class action injury claim law suit vs the MOD down the line when all the short falls of the H135 were known some time ago.