Airlines in Aus feeling the pinch

[kcboy]

I’ve started to hear rumours that airlines in Aus are really starting to feel the pinch of a pilot shortage big time. The traditional space shuttle requirements and interview processes that Australian airlines once demanded evidently are not holding up anymore and it’s becoming interesting observing the airlines deal with the shortage.

Qantas Link direct entry hold files are drying up big time (probably due to the fact that Qantas hasn’t taken anybody from any QF subsidiary airline that wasn’t on hold from pre covid).

Rex now taking any pilot with a bit of multi and no longer care about ATPL subjects - probably a smart move if you ask me.

JQ now looking at people that have single engine time for direct entry, hold file now down to single digit numbers - if any. XLR pushed back until 2026 due pilot numbers.

QF mainline is playing the pilot job market, now about to walk a fine line as their hold file filled with eligible expats or FO’s/captains from other jet operators within Australia prepared to sacrifice seniority to become a second officer starts to dwindle… All whilst the anger from internals being held back from a start date and zero communication starts to pent up…

VA now getting to the bottom of their recall of the seniority list. They too will be looking at hiring from the very small pool of experienced pilots still in GA but not happy with where they were at.

US operators still actively swooping many and any Aussie pilot with experience and whacking them straight on serious USD$$$ with nothing but positive sentiments coming from anyone that has left for there.

Cobham aviation now paying for Facebook advertising to try and recruit pilots?? Imagine that 5 years ago? They wouldn’t have to do more than post a single ad on the AFAP pilot job page without getting triple digit applicants.

God knows where the usual known shyster operators such as Skippers are at with pilot recruitment.

If the job market stays like this for another 12 months ++ things could get extremely interesting.

One would have to imagine that this truly is a time for pilots in Australia to get significantly better terms and conditions written into their contracts. May the force be with any pilot bodies negotiating contracts right now. There hasn’t been a better time for us in recent years.

[Australopithecus]

While I hope what you wrote is all true, I should point out that the XLR has to have design changes due to the fire risk of the rear centre tank. The most optimistic estimate is that will take about a year, then the certification testing can be completed. I don’t see any deliveries much before late 2025 anyway.

[43Inches]

I think apart from QF if you want to work somewhere throw in an application whether you meet the minimums or not. Pretty sure places like Rex will most likely have a serious look at anyone. QF you still have to get through HRs hurdles so unlikely they'd look at non compliant applications.

[ziggerz]

At what stage do you think REX would start considering people with 250 hours ? If they haven't already. Rumours telling me they are hemorrhaging staff to qlink interesting to see when they drop their requirements.

[Ollie Onion]

Don't worry, as has happened for the last 50 years the impending pilot shortage will be nicely countered by another global shock of some sort. For as long as I can remember EVERY big hiring push has been closely followed by a Dot Com bust, Sep 11, GFC, Covid, War in Europe or massive global recession.

[43Inches]

At what stage do you think REX would start considering people with 250 hours ? If they haven't already. Rumours telling me they are hemorrhaging staff to qlink interesting to see when they drop their requirements.

Everybody is moving onwards and upwards, if you mean the SAAB operation that is inevitable, no 20 y/o something pilot is going to stick around on a turboprop, old or new when jet jobs are on offer. Especially when it pays more. As for moving to QLink, you probably mean NJS, not the Dash operator, no one is going to move sideways for the same job and risk being not able to progress on to Q mainline, when you can move directly from Rex to mainline. Even begs the question why would you take NJS with their reputation vs J* or Mainline, considering J* is desperate for crew. I get the feeling Q group will make NJS a dead end job as well with no progression to keep you there, like Easterns and Sunstate.

Covid, War in Europe or massive global recession.

Those three are still contenders in motion, pick one or maybe all three for 2023. Don't forget nuclear obliteration or asteroid impact.

[davidclarke]

I still maintain there is NO pilots shortage. Just a shortage of pilots willing to work for low pay and conditions. The apparent shortage can be remedied overnight by fixing the aforementioned.
Australia has 1000s of expat pilots overseas that would come how if this significantly improved. There is one person responsible for the previous 10 years of downwards pay and conditions, and he sits at the head of Coward St. Unfortunately upper level management are to ignorant to see.

[43Inches]

I still maintain there is NO pilots shortage. Just a shortage of pilots willing to work for low pay and conditions. The apparent shortage can be remedied overnight by fixing the aforementioned.
Australia has 1000s of expat pilots overseas that would come how if this significantly improved. There is one person responsible for the previous 10 years of downwards pay and conditions, and he sits at the head of Coward St. Unfortunately upper level management are to ignorant to see.

That can be said for all job shortages in Australia. Shortages of hospitality staff, pickers, nurses, teachers, paramedics it is all the same issue. No one cares to work for whats on offer, both pay and conditions, so less than needed join that occupation as they can do other things they enjoy and earn enough to live. Pre Covid a lot of those jobs were filled by cheap immigrant labor or backpackers looking for pocket money, now somebody has to pay livable wages to get staff. The only problem is by pumping so much wage growth into these large industries you also kick inflation into gear, which in turn makes things more expensive and so on....which is where we find ourselves now.

A few mates in businesses that hire a few on the low end say it is becoming a poaching market for casuals, with some industries sniping each others staff. That being said, those that have always looked after their staff, even pickers get the same people back each year to do the job with no issues.

[josephfeatherweight]

Don't worry, as has happened for the last 50 years the impending pilot shortage will be nicely countered by another global shock of some sort. For as long as I can remember EVERY big hiring push has been closely followed by a Dot Com bust, Sep 11, GFC, Covid, War in Europe or massive global recession.
Unfortunately I agree with you! Make hay whilst the sun shines...

[dragon man]

“There is one person responsible for the previous 10 years of downwards pay and conditions, and he sits at the head of Coward St. Unfortunately upper level management are to ignorant to see.”

The Irishman sowed the seeds , AIPA watered them then the pilots harvested them by voting them up.Who can believe a union would go to court to fight a C scale that they told the pilots to vote for. Voting for 23.5 hour TOD for 4 pilots and removing night credits so you can work 30% more hours per bid period. All self inflicted.

[KAPAC]

Qantas psychometric testing is helping North American operators to record profits and could push up Australia’s T&C’s for regional airlines . ( yes , I failed it 😂) .

[davidclarke]

“There is one person responsible for the previous 10 years of downwards pay and conditions, and he sits at the head of Coward St. Unfortunately upper level management are to ignorant to see.”

The Irishman sowed the seeds , AIPA watered them then the pilots harvested them by voting them up.Who can believe a union would go to court to fight a C scale that they told the pilots to vote for. Voting for 23.5 hour TOD for 4 pilots and removing night credits so you can work 30% more hours per bid period. All self inflicted.

Yes agreed. We are our own worst enemy. Both unions need a clean out at the top, but we know that will never happen……

[Track5milefinal]

Qantas psychometric testing is helping North American operators to record profits and could push up Australia’s T&C’s for regional airlines . ( yes , I failed it 😂https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif .

Have never and will never do any form of psych testing
If QF psych tested their upper level management they wouldn't have a board!

[finestkind]

Possibly 25ish years ago read an article ( too long ago to recall which magazine) forecasting a pilot shortage. This was based on lowering requirements for employment with a major airline. From 1000 hrs PIC to 800 with 500 being looked at. The major concern here was safety. Where once experience was gained on regionals with a history of having pilots for x amount of time before departing said regional. The lowering of hours meant less experience. Not an overt issue with the majors having experience in the cockpit to train the newbies but an issue with the regionals which would eventually impact all. Ollie is right. 9/11 stalled that issue as did the GFC etc. The expanding industry caused that issue. Now it may well be an expanding industry again but there can be little doubt that the desirability for a career as a pilot has diminished as well. Pherhaps more attractive package's may help correct that.

[Impress to inflate]

It's my understanding that most P2's on the 717 fleet have jumped state-side. Is this true.

Pay and conditions seem to have stagnated is Oz over the last few years while airfares are at record high, someone's making money and it's not the crews !

[FO NappyBum]

It's my understanding that most P2's on the 717 fleet have jumped state-side. Is this true.

Pay and conditions seem to have stagnated is Oz over the last few years while airfares are at record high, someone's making money and it's not the crews !


As long as shareholders / dividends win happy days!

[Beer Baron]

The Irishman sowed the seeds , AIPA watered them then the pilots harvested them by voting them up.Who can believe a union would go to court to fight a C scale that they told the pilots to vote for. Voting for 23.5 hour TOD for 4 pilots and removing night credits so you can work 30% more hours per bid period. All self inflicted.
What utter drivel. AIPA preside over the highest paid wide body and narrow body pilot EA’s in the country. If you want to point fingers about who’s responsible for lowering conditions in the country then you need to look at a different operator, different union and different pilots.

[abaderrr]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/946x1937/ff552016_0d6b_4b45_997c_b574be3ec0d8_f2623489fa9ca802f17bfac 149b300baca743882.jpeg

QF now looking stateside for A220 for NJS A220 checkies. Can imagine they'll be crawling over each to move to Aus and earn what a 2nd year FO pulls in the states.

[43Inches]

Are they serious to be offering up to $160k for a jet TRI, when local (US) companies are offering that for line crew. A SAAB trainer in Rex can earn more, and yes allowing for USD conversion. Not sure who in their right mind would accept that. Unless they like working for companies that profit billions and pay you a pittance. No wonder they class them only 3.8 stars, hope that's out of ten though.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Now it may well be an expanding industry again but there can be little doubt that the desirability for a career as a pilot has diminished as well. Pherhaps more attractive package's may help correct that.

Bingo!! And I would bet my hat that this very point was never considered as a threat to future pilot supply. The aggressive attack on T’s and C’s coupled with a mildly corruptible government/regulator will be one of corporate Australia’s biggest own goals. As someone posted earlier, inflation is the price we will all pay for an adequate correction.

[Switchbait]

Are they serious to be offering up to $160k for a jet TRI, when local (US) companies are offering that for line crew. A SAAB trainer in Rex can earn more, and yes allowing for USD conversion. Not sure who in their right mind would accept that. Unless they like working for companies that profit billions and pay you a pittance. No wonder they class them only 3.8 stars, hope that's out of ten though.

Never underestimate the level of delusion held by Australian second tier airline and regional airline Executives…

[Icarus2001]

Can you read?

Aircraft Training Captains. Not TRIs. Not Check captains.

So USD$140-160,000 would be AUD$198 - 226,0000. A little below expectations perhaps.

[morno]

In most parts of the world, an aircraft training captain is a TRI.

[Australopithecus]

Can you read?

Aircraft Training Captains. Not TRIs. Not Check captains.

So USD$140-160,000 would be AUD$198 - 226,0000. A little below expectations perhaps.

yeah, about $150,000-200,000 below. The A-220 is roughly analogous to the 737-300 which is what my current 737-800 pay is based on, And I am a line pilot, no longer a TRI. Anyone doing an airline flying/training job should be on $450K.

[ZebraFlyer]

QF mainline ... anger from internals being held back from a start date and zero communication starts to pent up…

Can attest to this. If you are at a group airline and have been placed on the hold file, each month that goes by is another 15 or so (I think?) seniority numbers you will be junior to, with no precise end in sight. Rumour that JQ is only releasing 2 per month so some unable to take other positions within. Another rumour that hiring only from certain over subscribed bases of other internal companies. You are at their whim, QF purgatory.

The solution is so simple: tag and release. Give internals a start date, do 1 day of induction then onto LWOP back to the internal company for X amount of years so they can catch up on recruitment. Nobody would care provided they weren't made to remain at the internal for 5+ years. Makes far more sense than losing a known quantity to the USA or the Middle East.

[Sleeve Wing]

When I started in the 70s, the right hand seat was the dream job and the airline took care of everything.

My considerable experience since has been that, when the market is flourishing and there are plenty of spare pilots around who aspire to the dizzy heights of an airline job, airlines move the goalposts to increase their demands. Their attitude has always appeared to be that, because they are paying bigger salaries than the average, they are entitled to increase roster periods, max duty hours, forget holiday entitlements and rest time and hammer sh*t out of anybody daft enough to put up with it.
They no longer take responsibility for licence training, newly required type ratings or the necessity for a sensible family existence. THEY MILK IT.

Now the boot is on the other foot and young aspirants are realising that Airline Flying, per se, isn't all it is promoted to be. There are better jobs in the GA market for example, with better-equipped aeroplanes and less-demanding work profiles. The importance too of an apparently attractive airline salary is now less important than some semblance of a home life and a bit of leisure time. I remember being so shagged out at the end of a duty week that I needed just to sleep for virtually the whole rest period just to be fit to start, you've guessed it, on EARLIES again !

There was an occasion in the past that a "single" pilot had been rostered on virtually continuous earlies for SIX months and was then rostered for a very late finish immediately before an annual leave which, by the way, never included weekend days ! They had to be specially requested for a mid fortnight break and sometimes they were never available.
Oh, and just remember this all tends to be cyclical. And while there are shareholders, it will happen again !

BTW, my best pal became an aviation specialist barrister.
Did he envy me ? No. He bought himself a new Baron and flew into the sunset............. :ugh:

[kcboy]

Can attest to this. If you are at a group airline and have been placed on the hold file, each month that goes by is another 15 or so (I think?) seniority numbers you will be junior to, with no precise end in sight. Rumour that JQ is only releasing 2 per month so some unable to take other positions within. Another rumour that hiring only from certain over subscribed bases of other internal companies. You are at their whim, QF purgatory.

The solution is so simple: tag and release. Give internals a start date, do 1 day of induction then onto LWOP back to the internal company for X amount of years so they can catch up on recruitment. Nobody would care provided they weren't made to remain at the internal for 5+ years. Makes far more sense than losing a known quantity to the USA or the Middle East.

It is so cruel what they’re doing to their internals, I’m actually surprised it is not talked about more on here. Unfortunately nothing will change too unless numbers leave in droves - like in 2016 to the UAE. Not to worry though, let's not forget that the company's going to make everything right by offering a ‘Letter of Assurance’. Hopefully it'll be soft, 3 ply, absorbent, and have little seashell patterns on it.

[dragon man]

What utter drivel. AIPA preside over the highest paid wide body and narrow body pilot EA’s in the country. If you want to point fingers about who’s responsible for lowering conditions in the country then you need to look at a different operator, different union and different pilots.


So it’s utter drivel that what I said was not in EA9 but in EA 10 and they are not a lowering of your conditions? Loss of night credits for 4 man crews, really.

[rigpiggy]

Are they serious to be offering up to $160k for a jet TRI, when local (US) companies are offering that for line crew. A SAAB trainer in Rex can earn more, and yes allowing for USD conversion. Not sure who in their right mind would accept that. Unless they like working for companies that profit billions and pay you a pittance. No wonder they class them only 3.8 stars, hope that's out of ten though.
had that discussions management today, PSA is paying for.qualified line check captains 200% of base pay first year is about 230k second year with bonus 348usd. A rising tide (should float all boats)

[Gnadenburg]

Thoroughly deserved if true! I can’t believe the state of the game now, having left when Ansett collapsed and returning during COVID.

[propaganda]

The rot set in years ago with the slow and steady erosion of the profession . Airline managers have regarded pilots as an expendable commodity... they have the delusional idea everyone wants to work for them.
Pilots are not low hanging fruit and it's blatantly obvious the shortage is going to get a lot worse as the competition intensifies and the talent pool dries up.
Covid was the long awaited excuse airline managers had been waiting for to get rid of the top earners under early retirements, or one off redundancy pay-outs. Now fast forward to 2023 airfares are sky high with load factors to match, but airlines are struggling to attract the talent.

The root cause of the issue is the common systemic management agenda to undermine and undervalue the profession whenever and wherever possible.
IMHO airlines don't need more analysts or HR managers they need people who understand the problem and are prepared to stand up and be unpopular with the CEO , CFO and the shareholders - the profession is worth more and it's about time it was recognised .

[finestkind]

The rot set in years ago with the slow and steady erosion of the profession . Airline managers have regarded pilots as an expendable commodity... they have the delusional idea everyone wants to work for them.
Pilots are not low hanging fruit and it's blatantly obvious the shortage is going to get a lot worse as the competition intensifies and the talent pool dries up.
Covid was the long awaited excuse airline managers had been waiting for to get rid of the top earners under early retirements, or one off redundancy pay-outs. Now fast forward to 2023 airfares are sky high with load factors to match, but airlines are struggling to attract the talent.

The root cause of the issue is the common systemic management agenda to undermine and undervalue the profession whenever and wherever possible.
IMHO airlines don't need more analysts or HR managers they need people who understand the problem and are prepared to stand up and be unpopular with the CEO , CFO and the shareholders - the profession is worth more and it's about time it was recognised .

When other less skilled, in actual skill and or cost of training with a required experience level, employment is paying reasonable to good wages with the big BUT being home more frequent etc the eroded T & C's become a very big issue. Average pay with great T&C's to do the job you love is probably ok for most. Or Great pay with average T&C'c again is probably acceptable for most. But when they are both average than that bus driving job becomes attractive. It is not rocket science and has been proven that paying your employees more brings about an increase in production, higher morale, and an increase in applications.

[soseg]

“There is one person responsible for the previous 10 years of downwards pay and conditions, and he sits at the head of Coward St. Unfortunately upper level management are to ignorant to see.”

The Irishman sowed the seeds , AIPA watered them then the pilots harvested them by voting them up.Who can believe a union would go to court to fight a C scale that they told the pilots to vote for. Voting for 23.5 hour TOD for 4 pilots and removing night credits so you can work 30% more hours per bid period. All self inflicted.

Out of curiosity, what other airlines pay night credits other than QF380/330?

[The_Equaliser]

Night credits at QF were never about flying at night. They were introduced as a work around pay rise during the wages accord between the Hawke goverment and the ACTU in the 80s. But you knew that Dragon didn’t you.

[dragon man]

You are not correct they were introduced in the 1960s when Qantas pilots took strike action for a Nth American award. They were actually higher but were reduced when the 747 came into service. To get around the wages accord and the domestic pilots dispute the 400 was given its pay rise by using overtime.

[kcboy]

73 positions vacant at Jetstar as of right now? Lol

[sid-star]

73 positions vacant at Jetstar as of right now? Lol

Parking jets because there’s no drivers is coming to a town near you.

[brokenagain]

73 positions vacant at Jetstar as of right now? Lol

Don’t worry, the QF cadets are coming to save the day apparently. :}

[cLeArIcE]

Parking jets because there’s no drivers is coming to a town near you.
Yep, definitely a better option then treating people with respect and perhaps offering competitive terms and conditions 🙄. Typical clueless jetstar.
If you have any better options, why would you come here.

Looks like FO monthly hours will be going up. I'm going to have to call in sick even more.

[FO NappyBum]

Don’t worry, the QF cadets are coming to save the day apparently. :}

Day 1 Ground School: “when’s the mainline EOI coming out?”

[FO NappyBum]

Day 1 Ground School: “when’s the mainline EOI coming out?”

2nd question: “how long is it to 787 FO?”

[PPRuNeUser01531]

The highly contagious "Shiny Jetliner" virus has peaked in the west and is spreading rapidly to the east. Most sufferers are unaware that they are infected however over time symptoms take hold and negative distain prevails.

[cloudsurfng]

The highly contagious "Shiny Jetliner" virus has peaked in the west and is spreading rapidly to the east. Most sufferers are unaware that they are infected however over time symptoms take hold and negative distain prevails.

might ask the emperor to close the borders again. We don’t need that filthy **** ‘over east’