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SixPin
21st Jan 2023, 07:50
2 fully qualified Captains flying together.

Capt. in the L seat is the designated commander for both sectors.

You (the other Capt.) are in the right seat

You are PM on the out sector and PF on the way back.

Assuming each sector is 1 hr, how do you enter these hours in your log book?

Your options are;

P1

P1s

P2

Co-pilot

AerocatS2A
21st Jan 2023, 08:19
Whatever you'd normally log First Officer time as.

Denti
21st Jan 2023, 09:20
Under EASA rules the operator (airline, AOC holder) assigns who is the PIC, and only that person can log PIC time. Even if he/she is in the bunk. The other pilots on board can log P2/SIC. Even if one is paid and trained as a captain. Two captains flying together has a few issues, as the above one, but also possible flightdeck authority gradient problems, who can abort a take off. So a very thorough briefing is in order and most unions are pretty much against it. Since you do need specific right hand seat training anyway to fly in the right hand seat as a captain, many airlines do not bother with that anymore except for trainers of course.

Checkboard
21st Jan 2023, 14:18
Command time is Command time, and is logged by the Commander.

Being qualified as a Captain in an airline qualifies you to log Command time - if you are in Command.

If you are not in Command, it is possible to be In Command, Under Supervision (ICUS) and, if that is the case, you can log the time as such. This has nothing to do with who is PF for any sector. You do not decide after the fact if you were acting In Command, Under Supervision (that's not possible). If you are to act in that position, then it needs to be agreed before the flight with the Commander, briefed to any other crew (i.e. Cabin Crew), and all of the Command decisions will then be made by the ICUS pilot - fuel, delays for maintenance, tech log & MEL decisions, weather delays or in-flight diversions, Cabin Crew briefings, etc etc. The entire day would be logged as ICUS - regardless of who was PF on any particular sector.

As described, all of the time would be logged as FO time (P2, Co-Pilot etc)

Black Pudding
21st Jan 2023, 15:03
An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?

45989
21st Jan 2023, 16:53
An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?
Must be v low time to even worry about that........

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
21st Jan 2023, 16:53
An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?

Most airlines that RHS check their Captains do not permit them to be PF from the RHS. The exception is suitably qualified Training Captains.

BraceBrace
21st Jan 2023, 18:41
An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?

It doesn't even matter if you are PF. You need a right seat qualification even if you are PM in the right seat.

A typical rule for PIC designation is usually TRE>TRI>LTC>CPT and seniority on type ico equal "status"

Big Pistons Forever
21st Jan 2023, 18:50
Anyone in the RHS, other than cruise relief pilots in the RHS in cruise flight, has to be able to perform all the PF duties in the event of a LHS pilot incapacitation

Denti
21st Jan 2023, 20:54
Must be v low time to even worry about that........

Depending on ruleset it might be a legal issue. In EASA land once you have passed a command course you are not allowed to operate from the right seat anymore. Until you have completed a right hand seat qualification training in the simulator plus line training for it, including requalification at least once a year in a simulator. Usually V1 cut, single engine approach and landing/go around and an aborted take off from the right hand side. Basically catering to trainers having to fly line training with new commanders.

AerocatS2A
22nd Jan 2023, 01:13
Anyone in the RHS, other than cruise relief pilots in the RHS in cruise flight, has to be able to perform all the PF duties in the event of a LHS pilot incapacitation
This is true but some companies will only let you fly PM from the right seat in normal ops.

swh
22nd Jan 2023, 01:22
It doesn't even matter if you are PF. You need a right seat qualification even if you are PM in the right seat.

A typical rule for PIC designation is usually TRE>TRI>LTC>CPT and seniority on type ico equal "status"

The designation as PIC is defined by the operator, there is no regulatory requirement under EASA for the PIC to be in a control seat.

swh
22nd Jan 2023, 01:27
2 fully qualified Captains flying together.

Capt. in the L seat is the designated commander for both sectors.

You (the other Capt.) are in the right seat

You are PM on the out sector and PF on the way back.

Assuming each sector is 1 hr, how do you enter these hours in your log book?

Your options are;

P1

P1s

P2

Co-pilot

Both sectors are copilot time, a crew member other than the PIC. The logging of P2/P1S is up to your operations manual, probably P2 sector 1 and P1S sector 2

SixPin
22nd Jan 2023, 06:26
Most of you are wasting time on what other companies SOPs may or may not be, Iím not interested. Iím a veteran Capt. of over 20 years but new to this operation in which all Caps are LS & RS qualified and tested in both seats as PM & PF and yes thatís SIM and line checked.

The operator has no interest in how we log our hours as long as they are logged.

This is not a major issue, just a discussion amongst us Caps as which category it should be under. We have 2 TREs and they canít agree on which cat we should be logging it. One says PF is P1 regardless of seat because you are a qualified commander, the fact that the other Capt. for that day signs the tech log is irrelevant. The other is saying RS PF is P1s.

Remember, this is only log book trivia, nothing to do with SOPs.
We are just curious as to hear other points of view.

AerocatS2A
22nd Jan 2023, 06:47
Yep, and the answer is P2. The reason the discussion has digressed to SOPs is because your question was answered. You’re not designated commander, so you log P2 / SIC whatever the relevant column in your logbook is.

Arctic Circle
22nd Jan 2023, 06:49
When two Captains are scheduled to fly together during regular line operations, the designated commander logs the flight as P1/ PIC/ Commander and the Captain scheduled to fly in the right seat logs the flight as P2/ First Officer.
The designated commander is the Captain who the company has scheduled to be in command for the flight and is the pilot signing the technical log and ultimately responsible for the aircraft and flight.
The roles of PF and PM have nothing to do with who is commander. As mentioned, a Captain needs to be qualified to fly in the right seat but, when they do, they are just doing the job of First Officer.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
22nd Jan 2023, 10:19
A previous company we swapped seats so both got a PF sector from the LHS. Worked on LH and SH ops as long as both were RHS checked.

Denti
22nd Jan 2023, 12:46
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time says under point

h) When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew, one of them shall, before the flight commences, be designated by the operator as the aircraft PIC, according to operational requirements, who may delegate the conduct of the flight to another suitably qualified pilot. All flying carried out as PIC is entered in the logbook as ‘PIC’. A pilot flying as ‘PICUS’ or ‘SPIC’ enters flying time as ‘PIC’ but all such entries are to be certified by the PIC or FI in the ‘Remarks’ column of the logbook.

So even if the operator does not care, he has the duty to designate who is PIC and who isn't. PF and PNF does not enter into it, nor on which seat the PIC sits.

To be able to log PICUS time it has to be done under a program which has a method of supervision that has been accepted by the authority, in the UK that was traditionally extremely lax and a signature by the PIC was all that was required, other authorities require an OMD specified and approved training program. During such a program i was flying from the left, taking all decisions, signing the documents but still was not the PIC, i could just log PICUS for that.

FlightDetent
22nd Jan 2023, 13:56
This thread needs a 'Denti-only' filter.

Quite a senior moment the TREs are having over a pint, though.

biscuit74
22nd Jan 2023, 16:00
This is a fascinating insight into a different world, thank you ! As an instructor and check pilot in lighter aircraft I was used to flying, teaching and commanding from either seat.. It was never specifically discussed or tested for, so the flexibility got quickly built in. Sure, if in doubt a quick familiarisation circuit with another instructor might be slotted in, to allow familiarisation with different control layouts or operating alternate handed, but not regulated for.

Actually the occasional variations added to the fun; when checking, say, survey or photographic pilots, they may prefer to operate from the RHS, so the instructor gets the LHS for a pleasant change !

Most interesting ; I didn't realise that aircraft captains might require approvals for flying in the other seat !

atakacs
22nd Jan 2023, 16:30
May I respectfully ask what this discussion has to do with R&N ?

70 Mustang
23rd Jan 2023, 05:15
Have the two captains arm wrestle to settle the "decision."

ShyTorque
23rd Jan 2023, 12:18
Have the two captains arm wrestle to settle the "decision."

Youíd have to do that with both arms to make that fairÖ.

70 Mustang
23rd Jan 2023, 13:12
Zhe capitains must save one arm: to hold the coffee whilst the other flies!

Avman
23rd Jan 2023, 14:16
Interesting as it is, and without wanting to incur the wrath of the mods, I am genuinely puzzled as to why this "question" has remained in the Rumours and News forum for so long?

India Four Two
23rd Jan 2023, 14:20
Avman,

I agree with you, but I am also puzzled why this topic of logbook entries pops up so often on PPRuNe. It seems to be an obsession with UK pilots, both Commercial and Private.

I've never seen this issue raised by any other nationality. Are the rules less clear in the UK than elsewhere?

meleagertoo
23rd Jan 2023, 15:01
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time says under point

To be able to log PICUS time it has to be done under a program which has a method of supervision that has been accepted by the authority, in the UK that was traditionally extremely lax and a signature by the PIC was all that was required, other authorities require an OMD specified and approved training program. During such a program i was flying from the left, taking all decisions, signing the documents but still was not the PIC, i could just log PICUS for that.

Simply incorrect.
(in UK) Any Captain can agree to allow any FO to act u/s unless company rules prohibit it - highly unlikely. To qualify for the P1u/s the FO must make all command decisions thoughout the duty from briefing and met in the crewroom onwards, in other words act successfully in the role of Captain from crewroom to crewroom. Only a fully satisfactory day with no significant overrides from the Capt qualifies for the required signature in his logbook against the P1u/s hours claimed. The decision of whether or not to sign the logbook was entirely the Captain's. Thus it is clear that, as often happened to me, when an FO thrusted his logbook under your nose at the end of a day requesting a signature and this is the first time that day you'd heard mention of P1u/s the FO was going to be disappointed.
The 'program' referred to is an official fudge arranged by some airlines with the CAA that somehow or other 'allows' FOs to log P1u/s on their handling sectors with no regard whatsoever to decision making. This is simply a travesty of the very sensible and somewhat taxing learning arrangement described above and one that bears no resemblance to P1u/s as described in various CAA publications. (For a start it is based on FO's handling sectors, and P1u/s has nothing whatseoever to do with PF/PNF - something as basic as that you'd think the authority would know...
More importantly, it robs FOs of the opportunity to practice under the pressures of command and denies tham the practice that will stand them in good stead come their command asessment - for which, under this crazy system, they arrive completely unprepared and unpracticed, a crazy situation as I'm sure all will agree.

BraceBrace
23rd Jan 2023, 16:21
During such a program i was flying from the left, taking all decisions, signing the documents but still was not the PIC, i could just log PICUS for that.

That doesn't really sound correct. You cannot change seats unless qualified by a training program.

I do read about "who takes the decisions" choices on this thread. All decisions are taken as a crew after discussions on equal terms. PICUS time is not created to show someones ability to "play the boss", it's more about opening up the discussions, being able to "set the pace" and create a good working atmosphere. It's more about creating and leading a "smooth show".

There is a side of "courtesy" that is true. In my company ie there is an obligation to announce the request during the preflight briefing. Nothing more.

70 Mustang
23rd Jan 2023, 17:40
Interesting as it is, and without wanting to incur the wrath of the mods, I am genuinely puzzled as to why this "question" has remained in the Rumours and News forum for so long?

Since it's not clear in the regs, and there does appear to be a significant variation of viewpoints, and no definite answer, it may fit into the 'rumour' box? Opinion box? Maybe Jetblast? I never thought much about it. If i was not signing the flight release or flight plog or whatever terminology used, i saw no need to log it as captain. Only when i was the one who would get in trouble if things went wrong, and i had to make the final decision and sat in the left seat, after all training, did i log as PIC.

Wizofoz
23rd Jan 2023, 21:32
Most airlines that RHS check their Captains do not permit them to be PF from the RHS. The exception is suitably qualified Training Captains.
That hasn't been my experience. I've been RHS qualified, but not a trainer, for two airlines and we just flew leg-for-leg.

Tyranosoaring Rex
24th Jan 2023, 02:19
Moved from R&N as it is more of a technical discussion.

swh
24th Jan 2023, 07:37
The operator has no interest in how we log our hours as long as they are logged.

By regulation the operator must assign the PIC.

Capt Pit Bull
24th Jan 2023, 07:40
The easiest way to wrap yoir head around this is to understand that the rank of Captain is meaningless so far as logging time is concerned.

Captain is simply a company job title that means you qualified to be in command and may (but might not) be rostered to do so.

70 Mustang
24th Jan 2023, 11:35
The easiest way to wrap yoir head around this is to understand that the rank of Captain is meaningless so far as logging time is concerned.

Captain is simply a company job title that means you qualified to be in command and may (but might not) be rostered to do so.

'cause when i was "called" captain, i did get paid more and was called in for tea and biscuits (bisquits, cookies, crumpets, mainly cringing) when things went wrong.

AerocatS2A
25th Jan 2023, 01:35
Most interesting ; I didn't realise that aircraft captains might require approvals for flying in the other seat !
It kind of makes sense overall (captains flying right hand seat having not done so in years) but it can seem pretty ridiculous when you've just upgraded and suddenly you're deemed incompetent to fly from the seat you're most comfortable in.

goeasy
25th Jan 2023, 08:08
I was always told once you had qualified as PIC on type you can log all flying as PIC even in RHS. Who actually cares.? Once you have a command, all hours are just HOURS. Unless you move to a new type and only qualified as first officer again…

AerocatS2A
25th Jan 2023, 10:14
I was always told once you had qualified as PIC on type you can log all flying as PIC even in RHS. Who actually cares.? Once you have a command, all hours are just HOURS. Unless you move to a new type and only qualified as first officer againÖ
They're only just hours if you're actually making decisions, you know, being in command. If you have a PIC qualification but then, due to some weird hiring / rostering system, only ever flew in the RHS functioning as an FO, it would be disingenuous to claim they were all command hours. Who cares? The people hiring you for your next job who think you've got 2000 command hours when you only have 100.

BraceBrace
25th Jan 2023, 14:04
Can we please stop the very old school "when you are taking decisions" description? PIC is a responsibility designation. A PIC can perfectly leave the decision making over to another crewmember, but he cannot transfer his responsibility. OM A explains the responsibilities, authority and duties of the PIC. A copilot is responsible to take over "command" if he deems the PIC is "incapacitated" (ie intoxicated by alcohol) and becomes PIC. A PIC can even be on the jumpseat. PIC logs PIC hours. The others don't.

If you want to know how taking decisions is done, it's explained in a CRM course. If you want to know how seat-specific procedures are done, that's type rating or seat qualification stuff.

FlightDetent
25th Jan 2023, 17:16
Also, the rules on logging have been well established since JAR-OPS, that is 1997-1999 aroundish. Denti explained all that was needed.

#27 sadly confirms the UK's reputation for abusing the PIC(US) designation and authority regardless of the actual regulatory guidance in place. Indeed all job qualifications since 2 decades clearly spell PIC hours shall not include any PIC(US) imposter time. And that clarification was not created because of the core 90-80 hrs PIC(US) needed by an ab-initio cadet to unlock his ATPL or the time during a command course LOE and checkrides (Denti's OM-D approved cases).


EDIT: Cannot locate the CAA.UK document on this, probably about 15 years from the publishing date now, was explaining the logging for heavy crews. Nicely compiled and a good read.

An interesting find during the search was that HKCAD asks for the PIC(US) to conduct the tkof and ldg.

Checkboard
25th Jan 2023, 20:08
I do read about "who takes the decisions" choices on this thread. All decisions are taken as a crew after discussions on equal terms.
and
Can we please stop the very old school "when you are taking decisions" description?

I can tell you're not a Captain. :)

BraceBrace
25th Jan 2023, 21:22
you're not a Captain. :)

Depends on how you look at it.

Iím a line training captain, hence sometimes PIC copilot 🙃

rudestuff
25th Jan 2023, 21:38
How is this thread still going? For normal line flights the question is incorrect - two Captains can't fly together. There's a captain and an FO, regardless of what they get paid and what's on their shoulders. That's even how our roster shows it.

BBK
25th Jan 2023, 22:31
I think Denti way back on page 1 had it right. I think it would be P2 for the pilot who was not the designated commander.

Rudestuff. Different companies and national agencies rules may (will!) vary but I can see various scenarios where two captain could fly together. For example, I heard of a Royal Flight in the Middle East where all the pilots were both captains and all were right seat checked to ensure maximum flexibility. Alternatively a captain who needs landings for recency so the trainer occupies the right seat and acts as PM for both sectors. Iím sure there are other examples.

AerocatS2A
26th Jan 2023, 02:02
I think Denti way back on page 1 had it right. I think it would be P2 for the pilot who was not the designated commander.

Rudestuff. Different companies and national agencies rules may (will!) vary but I can see various scenarios where two captain could fly together. For example, I heard of a Royal Flight in the Middle East where all the pilots were both captains and all were right seat checked to ensure maximum flexibility. Alternatively a captain who needs landings for recency so the trainer occupies the right seat and acts as PM for both sectors. Iím sure there are other examples.
I think youíve misread Rudestuffís post, heís not saying two pilots qualified as captains canít fly together, heís saying that when they do only one is the captain, the other is the FO, regardless of qualification.

BraceBrace
26th Jan 2023, 02:19
Pretty logical if you are flying Boeing as in the Boeing FCOM, left hand seat is called Captain, and right hand seat is FO and those are seat qualifications resulting in areaís of responsibility, seat specific workflows,...
But it has nothing to do with PIC designation. PIC requires a Command course to be completed.

FlightDetent
26th Jan 2023, 03:22
50% of my employers would provide their captains with 'right-hand-seat' qualification which actually is a thing for all airplanes where 2 pilots are required.

Just because they saw the operational need / economic benefits of doing so.

One of them did provide LVTO training as PF to the F/O's and thus, as an extra add-on to RHS training of their captains, even PF LVTO was conducted.

(suggestion is made to keep heavy crew patterns out of this now, outside of the OP question scope. And trainings/exams too).

​​​​​​One suitably qualified captain needs to be nominated as PIC for each given flight. Under EASA nomenclature, this role is called 'Commander'.

Commander logs PIC.

All others log co-pilot, ona a plane where more than one person at controls is required.

PIC(US) is reserved to pre-determenided cases approved by the authority (such as trainings for the role of PIC listed in OM-D) and subject to approval by CMD after the flight. 'No intervention' rule applies.

The above is EASA based. What Denti says.

Cedrik
26th Jan 2023, 06:15
Logging time in the bunk........:8

Meikleour
26th Jan 2023, 10:48
Some of my happiest P1 hours were in the bunk!!:=:bored:

FullWings
26th Jan 2023, 18:56
Too much information!

Proline21
30th Jan 2023, 14:49
In my company the person who sits on the L/H is also the PIC in that role unless it's a training flight under the supervision of a training captain. In that case the R/H seating Captain will be the PIC and will log these hours. If two captains are assigned on the flight the company will designate a "mission commander" who will act as the PIC and will seat on the Left. All captains will receive a RHS check and training and are expected to perform duties from this position as well (PF/PNF) - however it sometimes leads to silly discussions (ego maybe?) and a Captain tries to explain you why he can't sit on the right and whatsoever..

172510
7th Feb 2023, 10:07
ORO.FC.105 Designation as pilot-in-command/commander
Regulation (EU) 2021/2237
(a) In accordance with point 8.6 of Annex V to Regulation (EU) 2018/1139, one pilot amongst the flight crew, qualified as pilot-in-command in accordance with Annex I (Part-FCL) to Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011, shall be designated by the operator as pilot-in-command or, for commercial air transport operations, as commander.

Come on, your not just a PIC, you are a commander!

I love this one:
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
(b) Logging of time:
(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC


So they make it clear that a PIC logs his or her flight time as PIC. But how a commander should log his or her flight time? We must admit that the practice of logging as PIC while you are a commander is not a written rule.

70 Mustang
10th Feb 2023, 10:57
Can we please stop the very old school "when you are taking decisions" description? PIC is a responsibility designation. A PIC can perfectly leave the decision making over to another crewmember, but he cannot transfer his responsibility. OM A explains the responsibilities, authority and duties of the PIC. A copilot is responsible to take over "command" if he deems the PIC is "incapacitated" (ie intoxicated by alcohol) and becomes PIC. A PIC can even be on the jumpseat. PIC logs PIC hours. The others don't.

If you want to know how taking decisions is done, it's explained in a CRM course. If you want to know how seat-specific procedures are done, that's type rating or seat qualification stuff.


“Old school”??? and “very” on top of that…

what I think he meant was, taking the final decision. That’s what it boils down to when things start going south.

even in training, one would let the trainee make the decision, to a point. One would not let the flight continue into a hazardous situation just to “instruct.” So, taking the final decision can be active or passive, but sits only on one set of shoulders when on the wrong side of the interrogation table. That’s how I always understood PIC.

uh…isn’t that the same as ‘responsibilty’?

BraceBrace
10th Feb 2023, 11:25
“Old school”??? and “very” on top of that…

what I think he meant was, taking the final decision. That’s what it boils down to when things start going south.

Things don't always start going south. On the contrary, in 99% of the cases the decision to be taken is one between different opinions and in many cases there is never a black and white truth, there is ideology and a zone of comfort. And from a point of view of "safety" and "not losing the other side", sometimes the commander might be better of leaving the decision with the weakest from a crew point of view and going along with that point of view, yet taking responsibility for it as a single person.

I react like this because in those 99% of the cases, if pilots lean so heavily on the fact they have to take the final decision as a commander, many times they think these are good/bad decisions, right/wrong, which in reality are not. They are just ego's fooling themselves thinking they know the truth. But it is not truth, it is their zone of comfort and leaving the others hanging dry. And THAT, is very old school. Ask KLM, they had a famous case in Tenerife. It is also very apparent in cultures that thrive on authority levels like that, plenty of cases to be found.

70 Mustang
10th Feb 2023, 11:38
Things don't always start going south. On the contrary, in 99% of the cases the decision to be taken is one between different opinions and in many cases there is never a black and white truth, there is ideology and a zone of comfort. And from a point of view of "safety" and "not losing the other side", sometimes the commander might be better of leaving the decision with the weakest from a crew point of view and going along with that point of view, yet taking responsibility for it as a single person.

I react like this because in those 99% of the cases, if pilots lean so heavily on the fact they have to take the final decision as a commander, many times they think these are good/bad decisions, right/wrong, which in reality are not. They are just ego's fooling themselves thinking they know the truth. But it is not truth, it is their zone of comfort and leaving the others hanging dry. And THAT, is very old school. Ask KLM, they had famous case in Tenerife...

That's true. Do you honestly think we don't know that every day is not a tenerife north day?

It also depends on the individual "PIC" experience. New PIC will be extra cautious. It took you a while to settle in?

And there are truly some who do not belong there at all. I found the most "nervous" and "micro-controlling" pilots were the least able.

There is a wide range, but when one is PIC, he/she/it has to shoulder the final load.

Personally the "old school" guys taught me a lot, in the Alaska bush in the Twin Otter and later the old school in the 737-200 with the gravel kit.

Then we ended up in the most SOPed up airline possible with all the touchy feely new school perspectives, but many 'old school' principles remained true as far as I could see. A mix of both is a good thing.