How Does One Lose All Navigation in an A330 - Incident

[punkalouver]

C-GHLM, an Air Canada Airbus A330-300 was conducting flight AC885 from Geneve-Cointrin (LSGG) Switzerland to Montreal/Pierre Elliott Trudeau Intl. (CYUL), QC. During initial climb approximately 41 NM NNE of Lyon St-Exupéry (LFLL), France, Flight crew noticed navigation errors, was unable to fly planned waypoints and shortly thereafter lost all navigation. Flight crew advised ATC, declared a PANPAN and diverted to LFLL where an overweight landing was performed. Maintenance conducted a complete reset of the inertial reference system and aircraft completed flight to CYUL without further issues following maintenance.

[Magplug]

Look at this.... It is actually quite easy. LOT Flight 283 (http://avherald.com/h?article=4081ba3a)

All you have to do is take off with the wrong departure coordinates in the ADIRU. It does however necessitate you ignoring several (largely inescapable) aircraft and instrument cues as you taxy out to the runway. It was rather easier when INS systems required you to initialise with the ramp coordinates. It became less easy, but still not impossible, when the nav-kit changed requiring initialisation with the ICAO city-pair. With GPS updating however you will still get a number of cues that something is wrong before take off. Present generation aircraft like the 787 download the entire route from the company so most of the idiots are taken out of the process.... I bet you can still defeat the safeguards with a bit of prior planning though :(

[DaveReidUK]

The A330 spent more than 24 hours on the ground at Lyon, so possibly a bit more to it than just a reboot.

[dixi188]

I flew with a captain that had flown DC-8 freighters. One day, eastbound across the Atlantic the F/E turned both INS units off by accident instead of the HF sets.
The FO said "What are we going to do now"?
Capt. said, "Follow that white line in front".

[Consol]

Never hit 'nav update' on the FMS. You'll hear it on 1st day of line training

[markfelt]

Air Asia X incident in 2015

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2015/aair/ao-2015-029

[armagnac2010]

The A330 spent more than 24 hours on the ground at Lyon, so possibly a bit more to it than just a reboot.

Indeed, the structural inspection after the overweight landing takes longer than the reboot.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Had somebody do this in the 330 years ago before an Atlantic crossing. Ended up returning to departure airfield.

[the_stranger]

Never hit 'nav update' on the FMS. You'll hear it on 1st day of line training
But a colleague did just that. On an oceanic track.

That produced some issues and headscratching...

[Capt Fathom]

Never hit 'nav update' on the FMS.

But a colleague did just that. On an oceanic track.

Exactly what were they planning to ‘update the Nav’ on? :E

[Checkboard]

I hit "nav update" on the airbus just after I was endorsed on the thing. Oops. Pull Heading, re-initialize the position on a VOR/DME fix, and was good to go in about 30 seconds.

Later FMGC updates removed the option, so that's fixed, then. :)

[the_stranger]

Exactly what were they planning to ‘update the Nav’ on? :E
They just pressed the button (twice), when they wanted to press another.

Stupid mistake which they'll probably never make again.

[aeromech3]

And I thought NATS operating crew were special.

[tubby linton]

Airbus still have the ability to tune conventional navaids through the RMP but that wouldn’t help in oceanic airspace.

[the_stranger]

And I thought NATS operating crew were special.
Thats what we think too...

But we seem to make mistakes too, like those pesky other humans.. And of course not me personally,j ust my colleagues.

[Bosi72]

Should've brought Garmin Aera 500 as a backup :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWbjsynDZ0

[Atlantic Explorer]

C-GHLM, an Air Canada Airbus A330-300 was conducting flight AC885 from Geneve-Cointrin (LSGG) Switzerland to Montreal/Pierre Elliott Trudeau Intl. (CYUL), QC. During initial climb approximately 41 NM NNE of Lyon St-Exupéry (LFLL), France, Flight crew noticed navigation errors, was unable to fly planned waypoints and shortly thereafter lost all navigation. Flight crew advised ATC, declared a PANPAN and diverted to LFLL where an overweight landing was performed. Maintenance conducted a complete reset of the inertial reference system and aircraft completed flight to CYUL without further issues following maintenance.

Any particular reason for an overweight landing in this case?

[poldek77]

You may find this one interesting too

https://avherald.com/h?article=40d2752c

[VHOED191006]

Any particular reason for an overweight landing in this case?

If they were overweight by a lot, and if this bird doesn't have the fuel jettison system onboard, then they probably didn't want to circle, manually flying holds for hours on-end.

[konradeck]

I wonder whether that's a coincidence, but there were at least 2 such cases recently

Endeavor CRJ9 at New York on Jan 14th 2023, lost navigation (http://avherald.com/h?article=5043f561) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrlOWzv2qyc
United B763 at Newark on Jan 6th 2023, failure of all navigation equipment (http://avherald.com/h?article=5038c9f5&opt=0) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQNKn-eCA3g

[phantom menace]

I flew with a captain that had flown DC-8 freighters. One day, eastbound across the Atlantic the F/E turned both INS units off by accident instead of the HF sets.
The FO said "What are we going to do now"?
Capt. said, "Follow that white line in front".
Ha ha, excellent or using the TRK on the flight plan and getting the old CRP 5 out and bingo.

[HOVIS]

There used to be an FMGC reset procedure that required the FMGC CBs to be tripped for 20 minutes before each flight. Something to do with the memory only capable of holding 200 or so waypoints. If it wasn't reset then the aircraft Nav system would freeze in flt. Older model A330s.

[Feathered]

Airbus still have the ability to tune conventional navaids through the RMP but that wouldn’t help in oceanic airspace.

Any particular reason why reinitializing the INS with a current GPS position (or an upcoming waypoint) is not available, just in case the NAV UPDATE is pressed twice accidentally?

[Ollie Onion]

I did it once on an A320, was putting in a fix reference and accidentally dropped it in the NAV UPDATE field with a bit of a spasm that hit the button twice, MAP disappeared and Captain swore a bit. We selected HDG, realised we were out of ALL VOR/DME range and after a minute of wondering what to do simply asked ATC to vector us over the closest WPT and tell us when we were crossing, another NAV UPDATE at that point and off we went :-). I bought the beers that night,

[Flying_Scotsman]

IRET at Cottesmore having come from Bruggen entered E rather than W in INU. Not happy:ugh:

[fdr]

Should've brought Garmin Aera 500 as a backup :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWbjsynDZ0

In the MOG, that is a thing of beauty! The boy actually knows what he is doing. Standard? Nup. Safe? As safe as the other options... So, there is a laundry list of violations, but, darned if it isn't nice to see someone who can actually fly an aircraft. It wasn't unsafe, it was.... pretty smoothly flown. Sure he got a but tight in on the 270, but it was flown smoothly and with full awareness of his aircraft state, something we seem to be missing nowadays.


Go Around in The MOG

[Big Pistons Forever]

In the MOG, that is a thing of beauty! The boy actually knows what he is doing. Standard? Nup. Safe? As safe as the other options... So, there is a laundry list of violations, but, darned if it isn't nice to see someone who can actually fly an aircraft. It wasn't unsafe, it was.... pretty smoothly flown. Sure he got a but tight in on the 270, but it was flown smoothly and with full awareness of his aircraft state, something we seem to be missing nowadays.


Go Around in The MOG (https://youtu.be/pxZ3d7MNXSw)

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should......

[Flyhighfirst]

Should've brought Garmin Aera 500 as a backup :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWbjsynDZ0

Just WOW! “We’ll just do a 360” at about 600 feet to finish levelling out on runway about 1/4 mile finals. I knew aciation was bad in Africa but never thought it would be that crazy.

[Flyhighfirst]

In the MOG, that is a thing of beauty! The boy actually knows what he is doing. Standard? Nup. Safe? As safe as the other options... So, there is a laundry list of violations, but, darned if it isn't nice to see someone who can actually fly an aircraft. It wasn't unsafe, it was.... pretty smoothly flown. Sure he got a but tight in on the 270, but it was flown smoothly and with full awareness of his aircraft state, something we seem to be missing nowadays.


Go Around in The MOG (https://youtu.be/pxZ3d7MNXSw)

What is wrong with just offsetting and climbing back up to try it again. There was nothing safe about that. Cowboy attitude of get it on the ground as quick as we can. Don’t give a damn about the pax behind.

[Seat4A]

I didn't see this posted upthread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkv7c2Kprdg

[John Marsh]

5Y-MWM is a freighter. The choice of flight path was probably influenced by the SAM hazard in the area.

[JanetFlight]

Don’t give a damn about the pax behind.

Cargo btw ... Jesus man, this is MGQ, nothing out of the ordinary here, unless you prefer to get shot... nice memories of good ol times with the mighty 727 flyin for Transafrik and company ... enjoy life :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BIJqb90S-8

[1southernman]

Never got shot at in the air, that I'm aware of, and I wouldn't have done it at the airline (pax) but I don't see anything but a crew in their element, decent vis, in control and having fun...Probably not their first time...The old dive n drive or a circling in min vis would be pushing it more..

[1southernman]

Plumbed the 27 for 7 mos. Never got to fly it but saw some of best the flying of an airplane.while sitting sidesaddle...Guys with years of experience in the 3 seats...