After landing when would you put the seat pins in

[NIREP reader]

Hi all, information gathering for a model diorama and in particular the F-4J(uk) unless its appropriate to all old style seats. So after landing when would you put the seat pins in, or would you wait until stopped and shutting down.Equally the seat pin for the upper handle in photos has a large lanyard attached. Would this have been used in service or just the familiar pins/red disc set up.TIA. Steve.

[SpazSinbad]

NATOPS for F-4J USN 1978 says (135Mb PDF): https://www.docdroid.com/8I7CdG8/f-4j-phantom-ii-flight-manual-later-edition-pdf

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1760x2000/post_landing_f_4j_phantom_ii_flight_manual_later_edition_197 8_2147c45a14f392a61bb8970063db2de919fa3e8a.gif

[SpazSinbad]

NATOPS sense of humour. :} Cartoon from: https://www.docdroid.com/Zf5T99m/f-4bf4h-1-flight-manual-volume-i-amd-ii-pdf

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1626x1050/enterprise_cartoon_approach_f_4b_f4h_1_flight_manual_volume_ i_amd_ii_natops_7fa61d1c81ffe41dbebf89954e167fa7e13699dc.gif

[Timelord]

Never flew theF4 but Buccaneer practice in the 80s was: Clear the runway. Stop. Replace pins.Taxi back, open canopy. Never saw any pins attached to a lanyard.

[SpazSinbad]

Graphic from same NATOPS above MK-H7 Ejection Seat. RAF F-4 Phantom II Type 7 A1 Ejection Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/raf_f4seat.htm Mk7 Ejection Seat – Martin Baker (martin-baker.com) (https://martin-baker.com/products/mk7-ejection-seat/) Also: F-4 Phantom II Martin-Baker Mk. H-7 Ejection Seat: The Ejection Site (http://www.ejectionsite.com/f4seat.htm)

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1275x1473/mk_h7_ejection_seat_f_4j_phantom_ii_flight_manual_later_edit ion_forum_0af4aed13aef6fbeec3bb7fa27f288940edd76c5.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

Photo: RAF F-4 Phantom II Type 7 A1 Ejection Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/vbk/type%207RAF-1.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/670x936/raf_f_4_phantom_ii_type_7_a1_ejection_seat_47d610393ce65adfe c1622c3e9c15e215d9ee4ce.jpg

[clarkieboy]

Standard disclaimer :
It's a long time since I strapped someone into a J, but I recall the seat pins were all attached by lanyards, 1/2 inch webbing.
The face blind had a wee pouch attached to it as well. It was the last pin out, the rest and their lanyards went into the pouch, then we took the last pin and it's pouch out, handed it to the occupant.
I suspect that's what the original poster has seen.
Happy to be corrected, it wasn't yesterday!
Cheers!

[NIREP reader]

Standard disclaimer :It's a long time since I strapped someone into a J, but I recall the seat pins were all attached by lanyards, 1/2 inch webbing.The face blind had a wee pouch attached to it as well. It was the last pin out, the rest and their lanyards went into the pouch, then we took the last pin and it's pouch out, handed it to the occupant.I suspect that's what the original poster has seen.Happy to be corrected, it wasn't yesterday!Cheers! ​​​​​​​Thanks CB. So is it right to assume the aircrew shut down then groundcrew climbed up and put the face pin in first, or is it possible the aircrew my have done it on the taxy back in.

[clarkieboy]

Thanks CB. So is it right to assume the aircrew shut down then groundcrew climbed up and put the face pin in first, or is it possible the aircrew my have done it on the taxy back in.

As far as I recall,the pins were put in by the crew, but when, I don’t know. Never had to climb up and put them in.
Mind you, usually had a J79 to mend by then….
Cheers!

[ShyTorque]

I think that on the JP the procedure was to stop clear of the runway and replace the seat pan handle pins during the after landing checks before taxying in. The ground crew would replace the top handle pins in dispersal before shutdown.

[ZH875]

I think that on the JP the procedure was to stop clear of the runway and replace the seat pan handle pins during the after landing checks before taxying in. The ground crew would replace the top handle pins in dispersal before shutdown.although we did have a solo student taxi in and found the only pin out was the top one in the empty seat.😳

[H Peacock]

JPs at Cranwell in the 80s, when dual you’d put each others Face-screen Handle pin in. Can’t remember if you could put your own pin in when solo! 🤔

[MPN11]

JPs at Cranwell in the 80s, when dual you’d put each others Face-screen Handle pin in. Can’t remember if you could put your own pin in when solo! 🤔
I was wondering how you could achieve that. Strapped in tight, and fumbling behind ones head/helmet to insert a pin in an invisible hole seems almost impossible ... with the added risk of accidentally pulling that handle in the process! Or does the seat-pan pin isolate the face-screen operation?

[132bod]

We're wandering off a bit here, but here's my bit.
Leeming & Scampton 80s-90s JP 3A & 5A on crew in, "top pins" got canopy sear on 3a, then RHS top pin, then LHS individually removed and handed to LHS occupant tag first by the ground crew. At that point, crew had been assisted by groundcrew to get all relevant straps connected but no pins removed. At return to dispersal after flight, ground crew would first check only the tops pins & drogue pins in stowage before being handed the top pins in the order LHS, RHS, Canopy (if present).

On Tornado F3, also removed/fitted the canopy rocket sear on crew instruction, in the same manner as awkward to get at.

[NutLoose]

Was that throughout the RAF? I know the Jags in Germany never fitted the main gun sear pin, whilst they did in the UK. So they're were differences per commands.

[132bod]

Throughout my service on JP3a, 5a, Tucano, Hawk, Tornado F3, the main gun sears were only ever fitted/removed by armourers as they changed status to/from Safe for Parking & Safe for Servicing. On the flightline always Safe for Parking if available for use. Some time late 80s I think a/c parked "S" in the hangar also had to be "Safe for Servicing" before being put inside, where they hadn't been before.

The only maintenance that could be performed on an a/c "Safe for Parking" is the Flight Servicing required to either directly prepare or recover from flight. Tyre worn to limits after flight? Seats to "Safe for Servicing", change wheel assembly, seats back to "Safe for Parking". All recorded on separate job cards. On turn-round servicing, the F700 co-ordinator was able to put seat status changes on the F716 Flight Servicing Certificate & also decide from a Eng Order Book list if the repairs carried out invalidated the flight servicing or not - but it still had to be documented, as the last SNOW number would be different. That allowed aircrew to see that something had been done to the a/c since the previuos crew had signed it in & it had been officially decided that whatever had been done did not affect the validity of the preparation for the next flight. The armourers had a vehicle as they had to go backwards & forwards to the line hut so much to keep the paperwork status up to date. We were launching waves of up to 14 a/c at a time, so waiting until all had been looked at as necessary by the armourers before they did any paperwork meant the first a/c could be waiting for their signatures for some time before being made available for its next trip.

[NIREP reader]

Thanks everyone for contributing, it's very much appreciated. Whilst nerding away I found this site and you'll see 2 photos of the F4J on the move with the top pins (with pouch) of both front and rear seats fitted.

https://bpag.co.uk/gallery/ze360-in-service/

[lsh]

Interested as to why so many photos of Phantom show them taxying in / out with canopies open. Surely they could not then eject?
I presume the seats must have had a minimum of, say, 90 kts to activate, so were not an escape option below that speed?

lsh

[wiggy]

Interested as to why so many photos of Phantom show them taxying in / out with canopies open. Surely they could not then eject?
I presume the seats must have had a minimum of, say, 90 kts to activate, so were not an escape option below that speed?

lsh

Simple answer for the canopies being open was to get some fresh air/keep the cockpit temperatures down to a reasonable level in hot conditions.

The seats were zero/zero so in theory you could eject whilst taxing or stopped (if your canopy was closed) but the chances of actually needing to do that were pretty low to say the least...

[H Peacock]

I was wondering how you could achieve that. Strapped in tight, and fumbling behind ones head/helmet to insert a pin in an invisible hole seems almost impossible ... with the added risk of accidentally pulling that handle in the process! Or does the seat-pan pin isolate the face-screen operation?

No, the seat-pan handle wouldn't isolate the face-screen handle. But in the JP you could see across to the top of the other seat - in fact the same procedure was used in the Canberra T4.

In the PR9 (Mk 3 0ft 70kts seat) the ground-crew removed the top pin once you’d strapped in; after landing, you could reach up and over to put your own pin in! It sounds somewhat hazardous, but in reality you need a hell of a pull to initiate the seat firing, furthermore, if you used the face-screen handle, you had to pull it all the way down over your face. Surprisingly easy to fit the top pin after landing, although not if you had short arms - we didn't even stop taxiing. 😳

[BEagle]

JPs at Cranwell in the 80s, when dual you’d put each others Face-screen Handle pin in

What a bizarre procedure! When I flew the JP, we would never try to replace the face screen pin after landing until on chocks and vacating after unstrapping. Seat pan and guillotine pins yes, but that was all.

To have someone fiddling over your face screen handle fumbling with the pin seems very dangerous - and why have a different procedure when dual to that when solo?

[wiggy]

What a bizarre procedure! When I flew the JP, we would never try to replace the face screen pin after landing until on chocks and vacating after unstrapping. Seat pan and guillotine pins yes, but that was all.

To have someone fiddling over your face screen handle fumbling with the pin seems very dangerous - and why have a different procedure when dual to that when solo?

Hi Beags

As I recall it at "main base" (e.g. Cranwell) you'd let the ground crew do the tops after shutdown, dual or solo..but we'd also certainly self top pin or buddy buddy the top pins at times - e.g. circuits Dual-> solo at an RLS, somewhere like Barkston, where the QFI would hop out after the dual bit...pins had to be moved accordingly and when appropriate with no ground crew to assist.

[Courtney Mil]

Non-zero-zero seats, pins in after landing unless you were thinking of perishing in the seat if you used it. Rocket MB seats, I always coordinated with my crew member to make the seats safe after landing - especially after long sorties so that we could unstrap. ACES II seats, the same because it’s a simple arm/disarm lever.

Addendum: yes, you can put face screen handle pins in whilst sitting in the seat. It’s not hard.

[sycamore]

CM,until you drop one...!

[Captain Dart]

Macchi MB 326 RAAF/RAN: MB Mk 4 seat: Pilots handled face blind, guillotine and seat pan handle pins just before takeoff and after landing. Groundies did the other four. The face blind one wasn’t difficult IIRC.

[SpazSinbad]

Interesting recollection Captain Dart. I last flew a MACCHI MB326H mid 1974 in the RAN FAA at NAS Nowra [perhaps interestingly I was trained late 1970 at RAAF East Sale by the instructor instructors so that I could be the first junior (Midshipman) Fleet Support Pilot when they arrived late 1970] so my memory of it is a bit hazy now. I have a good story to tell about the pins 'remove before flight' but will leave it for now. Meanwhile the graphic/text is from the 1973 RAN/RAAF Flight Manual for said aircraft.
[addition] "GROUND SAFETY PIN
The canopy jettison system is made safe by inserting a ground safety pin through the sear in the canopy jettison gun. The ground safety pin must be removed before flight and stowed in the front cockpit stowage block. [seen in grfx]
"EJECTION SEAT [Flight Manual Macchi MB-326H RAN/RAAF June 1973]
Both cockpits are fitted with Martin Baker Mk04B ejection seats.
Seat Safety Pins
The ejection seat has [b]5 safety pins; Face Screen, Seat Pan Firing, Guillotine Sear, Ejection Gun Sear and Drogue Gun Sear. All of these must be removed before flight.
Seat Firing Handles
The ejection sequence may be initiated by operation of either the face screen handle or the seat pan handle."

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x1050/ejection_seat_pins_mb04b_macchi_mb326h_ran_raaf_jun1973_3527 9b5bdff2138a66e414a5ad10e85d88fb0dd1.gif

[India Four Two]

Slight thread drift, but one of my UAS QFIs told us that while on a JP refresher course at Manby, they would entertain the spotters parked on the road adjacent to a taxiway.

After landing, they would put the pins in and open the canopy. Then one would unstrap, stand on the seat and salute the assembled masses!

[SpazSinbad]

Lots of EURO aircraft in this PDF about Ground Rescue Pin Actions from 2006. Interesting what is left out in this MB 326 instance: http://www.0x4d.net/files/AF1/R11%20Segment%2026.pdf (6Mb)

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1469x1050/mb326hgroundrescueeuro_f9979d83829606a225ffa9d2381bc405258f3 edc.gif

[SpazSinbad]

Photo in e-mail with the title: VF-201 F-4 Phantom II aboard USS Dwight D. Eisenhower CVN-69
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/642x960/vf_201_f_4_phantom_ii_aboard_uss_dwight_d_eisenhower_cvn_69_ forum_4c0925b790e69f5525fe6998fca3204fd41d05e9.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1079x1013/f_4usntopviewondeckzoom_d1437f34ae9035ab26b3f8357bbad09046d3 c982.jpg

[Akrotiri bad boy]

During my time on 92sqn at Wildenrath I strapped many a nav into the rear seat. I think I recall 5 pins, these were stowed in front of the occupant just above the eyeline. On start up, before removal of the entry ladder, the last thing to bring to the nav's attention were the 5 stowed pins, Seat pan, guillotine, rocket pack, face screen, drogue gun. Once seated the nav would remove the lower pins, (rocket, pan, guillotine), I would then take out and stow the face screen and drogue once the nav was settled.
On return it was quite common for the crew to taxy in with canopies open and the lower pins fitted. Once shut down and unstrapped the nav would stand on the seat and fit the face screen and drogue. Before any service was carried out it was essential to ensure there were no pins in the stowage and they were correctly fitted before standing on the seat.
This was all 40 years ago so cut me some slack if I'm a little hazy!