New Satellites for ATC

[Flying Binghi]

Soon, we will have more satellites then aircraft overhead Oz..

“..Australian-made satellites will soon be launched on a SpaceX rocket in a move designed to close gaps in the country's air traffic management.

They will help limit turbulence and ensure planes take the most efficient routes..”


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-28/spacex-rocket-launching-australian-satellites/101813614

[Sunfish]

…….and being uniquely Australian, the system will require special equipment that is pricey and has no international support.

Why do these idiots keep making stupid technological decisions?

There is a huge trail…….. The NB N, Seasprite, at least four naval ship projects, not including Collins class or nukes, onesky(?) and soon - offshore wind farms.

[Gne]

you forgot DMEA.

The Australian government purchasing policy for office supplies when applied correctly would require the sharp ends of a box of HB pencils to be cut off and the blunt ends sharpened "to suit Australian conditions".

Gne

[morno]

…….and being uniquely Australian, the system will require special equipment that is pricey and has no international support.

Why do these idiots keep making stupid technological decisions?

There is a huge trail…….. The NB N, Seasprite, at least four naval ship projects, not including Collins class or nukes, onesky(?) and soon - offshore wind farms.

I expected your negativity to pop up.

What’s to say it’s not internationally supported?

Regardless, the concept is fantastic and might push more countries to do it.

[tossbag]

Is he wrong in this case? Probably not. NBN being a case in point. Third world countries have better internet, And have a look at any armed forces acquisition over the last 20 years. Don't underestimate an Australians ability to **** up a project.

[morno]

I’m not saying that bad decisions haven’t been made with various projects, but this is basically putting ADSB receivers on satellites is how I read it. It’s not like they’re reinventing the wheel to do it.

[tossbag]

Yes, but I'm tipping there'll be Australian interfaces with the purchased technology, Australian involvement is usually the problem. Australia tends not to buy 'off the shelf' they buy it, modify it and **** it up.

[Australopithecus]

The most successful defence acquisition was the C-17 because it was off the shelf or nothing. Every time some mister-set-the-world-afire hero interferes with a defence spec it gets f*cked up. Actually, not just defence…ATC, NBN, highways, etc. Its all second rate at a very high price.

[missy]

Actually, not just defence…ATC, NBN, highways, etc. It's all second rate at a very high price.
OneSky reported to be $4b and rising. And, according to one project manager - "a job for life". Sigh.

[Sunfish]

Morno; I’m not saying that bad decisions haven’t been made with various projects, but this is basically putting ADSB receivers on satellites is how I read it. It’s not like they’re reinventing the wheel to do it.

Dear sweet Morno, I admire your optimism.

However; bad decisions have been made on so many government projects that its the successful ones that are the exception.

Yes, space based ADSB is a noble and virtuous project.

But your observation: "It’s not like they’re reinventing the wheel to do it." You Sir have yet to engage with the Australian bureaucratic mind!

Morno, to these folks, there is no international standard or product that cannot be (a) improved; (b) tinkered with for fun; (c) modified "to better suit Australian conditions"; (d) perverted into a gravy train for interested parties; or all four at once.

The change can be very subtle so that the damage is not apparent for many years after the money is spent.

For a hypothetical example, with reference to chapter 3 of the rough guide to the ADSB format,

https://mode-s.org/decode/book-the_1090mhz_riddle-junzi_sun.pdf

Lets say I am a senior bureaucrat with an interest in bushwalking. lets add a teensy new ADSB message that allows "us" to use the system to track feral horses in Kosciusko national park.

There are stupid people around who make such changes,

[jetpig32]

Why not just use Aireon? It’s up and running.

[smiling monkey]

They will help limit turbulence and ensure planes take the most efficient routes..”


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-28/spacex-rocket-launching-australian-satellites/101813614

No point in having efficient routes and efficient aircraft if you're going to get slowed down by feeder fix times. Fix the bottlenecks first by building those parallel runways they've been talking about in MEL and PER for the last few decades.

[Gne]

“In the vast majority of cases the capacity of an airport is determined not by the number or length of runways but by the ability of the surrounding airspace system and infrastructure to deliver aircraft to those runways and accept departures from them.”

Where the infrastructure includes the procedures, airspace classification, ATS available.

Gne

[Servo]

Having just returned from the USA, I was amazed how quickly they move aircraft there. One was just starting to roll, whilst we were being lined up. Cleared for takeoff as the other is just getting airborne.

Not like Australia where you are at the holding point, one is already upwind and turning, another aircraft on a 3nm final and told to wait.

They often had 3 runways operating the same time, including cross strips. Is it just a lack of ability in the system here in Oz or what?

[Awol57]

Having just returned from the USA, I was amazed how quickly they move aircraft there. One was just starting to roll, whilst we were being lined up. Cleared for takeoff as the other is just getting airborne. Not like Australia where you are at the holding point, one is already upwind and turning, another aircraft on a 3nm final and told to wait. They often had 3 runways operating the same time, including cross strips. Is it just a lack of ability in the system here in Oz or what?If we have auto release on, we do that regularly over west. No reason it can't be done here depending on spacing requirements and a few other considerations. Can't speak for other aerodromes.

[smiling monkey]

Having just returned from the USA, I was amazed how quickly they move aircraft there. One was just starting to roll, whilst we were being lined up. Cleared for takeoff as the other is just getting airborne.

Not like Australia where you are at the holding point, one is already upwind and turning, another aircraft on a 3nm final and told to wait.

They often had 3 runways operating the same time, including cross strips. Is it just a lack of ability in the system here in Oz or what?

Denver would have to be one of the best designed airports I've ever operated in to with 4 parallel north/south runways and two east/west parallels that don't cross at any point. And in places like Los Angeles and San Francisco, you get cleared to land even though you're on final with two other aircraft ahead of you on shorter finals, also cleared to land. This kind of thing would give Aussie authorities heart failures.

[missy]

Having just returned from the USA, I was amazed how quickly they move aircraft there. One was just starting to roll, whilst we were being lined up. Cleared for takeoff as the other is just getting airborne.

Not like Australia where you are at the holding point, one is already upwind and turning, another aircraft on a 3nm final and told to wait.

They often had 3 runways operating the same time, including cross strips. Is it just a lack of ability in the system here in Oz or what?

More context required. Was it a runway being used exclusively for departures? What was the traffic mix L, M, H, S? Were all the aircraft departing from the same holding point?

[Capn Bloggs]

If this provides on-ground ADS-B and VHF comms with ATC in the iron pentagon the Pilbara, it will be fantastic.

[tossbag]

So many experts.
So little time

The problem lies with you mate, probably never seen how a real ATC system works, probably sitting back throbbing over listening to the 'guardian of the Australian skies' rubbish you get plied with on linkedin.

[Geoff Fairless]

Why not just use Aireon? It’s up and running.
Jetpig,
I am a few years out of ATC by now, but from what I can glean Aireon does not include a communication option; it seems to be ADS-B only.

The missing link may be real-time voice comms (any trans-Pacific pilots care to comment?). If this is the problem then Aireon seems not to be the answer, perhaps this is the niche that Skykraft has identified? As I recall this is still also an issue for some parts of Australia where HF still has to be used; and I imagine there are also vast tracts of the rest of the world where HF is still in use.

Best of luck to Mark Skidmore and his company.

[tossbag]

25 years an ATC mate, about 28 a CPL. More of an 'expert' than you'll ever be.

But you just keep on thinking that you're an ATM expert, just like every other ATC.

[tossbag]

Not at all mate, if you want to make juvenile comments about someone's experience I'll put it out there, I could put quite a bit more out there but hey, it just attracts the usual defensive comments. Happy to PM you or your mate.

[tossbag]

Ignore away, who cares bro, it's the facebook of aviation, means nothing.

[Wizofoz]

Wow. So many posts, so little information...

Does anyone actually know what on-board and ground based equipment is actually needed to use the system?

[tossbag]

Apologies to Carly Simon.

Who's this Carly Simon flog, and why are you apologising to her? Did you do her wrong?

[Capn Bloggs]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-04/canberra-company-launches-satellites-air-traffic-management/101826144

Give it a rest, Tossbag, you're not funny.

[Dick Smith]

The secrecy is amazing.

I would imagine it is a satellite repeater similar to the OSCAR HAMSAT but on the VHF aircraft band.

Now economic because of the substantial reduction in satellite launch costs due to Mr Musk.

Designed to work with standard aircraft transceivers I would think.

[tossbag]

Give it a rest, Tossbag, you're not funny.

Ohhhhhhhh, cuuuuuuummm on, not even a little bit?

​​​​​​​Oh ****, sorry, I forgot we're discussing world peace, covid economics and gene therapy on these pages.

[Wizofoz]

The secrecy is amazing.

I would imagine it is a satellite repeater similar to the OSCAR HAMSAT but on the VHF aircraft band.

Now economic because of the substantial reduction in satellite launch costs due to Mr Musk.

Designed to work with standard aircraft transceivers I would think.
If that's true it's revolutionary.

[jetpig32]

Jetpig,
I am a few years out of ATC by now, but from what I can glean Aireon does not include a communication option; it seems to be ADS-B only.

The missing link may be real-time voice comms (any trans-Pacific pilots care to comment?). If this is the problem then Aireon seems not to be the answer, perhaps this is the niche that Skykraft has identified? As I recall this is still also an issue for some parts of Australia where HF still has to be used; and I imagine there are also vast tracts of the rest of the world where HF is still in use.

Best of luck to Mark Skidmore and his company.

The Aieron package is mounted on the Irridium 2 satellites. You could go with Iridium, Inmarsat, Viasat for coms. All up there, today.