JQ35 MEL to DPS U-turn at Derby 27 Dec 22

[Skillsy]

Passengers got to enjoy the vast countryside of Australia twice on their 787-8 but why?

Looking at Flight Radar, this is normally an A321 route so is this twitter thread reasonably accurate?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1021x1909/screenshot_2022_12_28_11_24_19_11_0b2fce7a16bf2b728d6ffa28c8 d60efb_3b4456a652bb1714469434198da5ef6ae37c787e.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x2000/screenshot_2022_12_28_11_11_08_32_8a6ce7ef6b1c5341b022b20d7f bb4b6e_d77d8d817f29f945aeed95b6173029abba88977f.jpg
Q35

[PoppaJo]

Likely a paperwork issue. Did they tell them a 787 was coming or a A321?

I heard Singapore fell into the same trap last month.

Isn’t the first, and won’t be the last. Expensive error though. Whoops.

[compressor stall]

It could also be Indo error.

I’ve been denied clearance over a fairly pedantic country as they has the wrong aircraft type on file.
When submitted it was definitely correct.

[krismiler]

Ever since MH 370 was thought to have passed unnoticed through Indonesian airspace, they have got VERY sticky about clearances. A while back an Ethiopian Airlines freighter en route to Singapore was forced to land at Batam (Indonesian island near Singapore) due to it not having the required overflight permission.

[t303]

Did they outsource Operations to Swissport? ABC news says they turned back "as they were landing in Bali". One hell of a STAR!

[Mr_App]

It could also be Indo error.
.

Well they wheeled out the media rep who told 9 it was a "internal error" and a "urgent internal review is now underway". Internal error means = Flight Planning took Sunday to Tuesday off. QF Group has form with office staff disappearing in peak times.

[CaptCloudbuster]

But I thought us Pilots brag (especially at this time of year) that the airline actually runs better when all the office dwellers take an extended holiday??:}

[PoppaJo]

The 787 performance is absolutely horrendous and has the worst OTP out of any fleet in the entire group.

If you cannot operate a widebody operation then just get rid of it. Laughable to have day after day 0% on time performance.

[Denied Justice]

The 787 performance is absolutely horrendous and has the worst OTP out of any fleet in the entire group.

If you cannot operate a widebody operation then just get rid of it. Laughable to have day after day 0% on time performance.


its called throw some resources at fixing screwups like this. How much did 7 hours non revenue flying plus Hotac cost. A lot more than putting staff on to properly run the joint.

And this is only one example

[Ken Borough]

I assume that this was a long-planned aircraft change in which case seeking Indonesian and Australian Government approval is a given. It’s not a last minute task for the Flight Planners. They woukd have changed the aircraft type for slot and ground handling at which time it’s logical to suggest that requests for Government approvals would be made at the same time. Incompetence, negligence or lack of diligence is not synonymous with 'miscommunication'!

[Trevor the lover]

ABC reporting it WAS because because of not advising of aircraft type change. Also reporting JQ have apologised. Woohoo

[mangatete]

To many stuff ups happening who’s head will role…..

[packapoo]

or even whose head will roll.....

[galdian]

Just asking - would have thought divert to Darwin/Broome/Port Hedland whatever, super efficient company back in the bunker files appropriate paperwork, throw on some fuel and off you go.

Suppose a query for immigration at some ports, heavy crewed so FTL's or overnighting crew??

If you believe the papers aircraft substitution pretty well standard at JQ these days so an amateur effort, something for the new CEO lady/QF CEO in grooming (apparently) to sort out.

Cheers

[Biggles_in_Oz]

I have to ask..
Why is an aircraft model-change such a big issue to the destination country ?

Wouldn't the destination airport get the ETA and aircraft-type from their ATCO ?,
who would already have the plan before departure ?

Sending an A380 to an airport that cannot handle it would be airline incompetance,
but destination processing (ATC/airport/immigration) a 787 should not be too disimilar to a A321.

[Astitine]

Good question. First of all, it had nothing to do with aircraft change. If you have access to the airport charts I would suggest you read them.

This is a fine example kids why as pilots you cannot trust your operations team.

The runway was closed at that time! What did they plan to land on, the water? Always closed on a Wednesday morning! The initial delay caused this. They went to cross into Indonesian airspace and was told the runway is closed. Nothing to do with Indonesian's and nothing to do with an aircraft change.

What an incredible mistake by a company that is meant to be an airline! What else gets told to the media which we all are fooled to believe in other industries. Makes you wonder!

Maybe someone can find the information/chart and put it up here from the airport directory information.

[nojwod]

I have to ask..
Why is an aircraft model-change such a big issue to the destination country ?

Wouldn't the destination airport get the ETA and aircraft-type from their ATCO ?,
who would already have the plan before departure ?

Sending an A380 to an airport that cannot handle it would be airline incompetance,
but destination processing (ATC/airport/immigration) a 787 should not be too disimilar to a A321.


One of the first things that came out but hasn't been reported in the rush to get complaining passengers on the tube: there was maintenance going on at the Denpasar airport which affected the types of aircraft that could land, and the 787 would have been ok if it had been on time, but the 5 hour delay pushed it into the maintenance window at the airport and that was why landing was denied.

Csn anyone on the inside confirm this? If it's true then it's a perfectly understandable sequence of events where an unknown factor pops out of the woodwork.

[C441]

But I thought us Pilots brag (especially at this time of year) that the airline actually runs better when all the office dwellers take an extended holiday??:}
Yep. Just goes to show how disorganised it is for the rest of the year. :ok:

[Icarus2001]

This is a fine example kids why as pilots you cannot trust your operations team.

A fine example of why the captain or FO should READ the NOTAMs I would have thought.

[SixDemonBag]

A fine example of why the captain or FO should READ the NOTAMs I would have thought.

which notam indicates the correct ac type for the day, agreed upon by the relevant authorities?

[Icarus2001]

SixDemonBag did you read this…

​​​​​​​ The runway was closed at that time! What did they plan to land on, the water? Always closed on a Wednesday morning! The initial delay caused this. They went to cross into Indonesian airspace and was told the runway is closed. Nothing to do with Indonesian's and nothing to do with an aircraft change.

[Mr_App]

So the company is telling lies then? They went to 9 Newspapers with the wrong aircraft paperwork story.

Sounds like a lot of arse covering going on at this outfit. Is the COO still on his L Plates?

[Ushuaia]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1520x2000/5884c3e0_512e_4bfa_95ea_e1b7ac9c1587_4237a892f1c9ecec6a072d1 5834012780dc3b584.jpeg


I last operated into DPS twenty years ago and hadn’t looked at this plate since then. Slightly ambiguous: the relevant note lacks a clarifying “Z” or “UTC” but I assume it is that? Doesn’t make sense to close your runway at a peak period, so presumably it is every Wednesday 2am to 7am.

[Mr_App]

Well if a Journo picks that up Tully and Co will be a laughing stock.

It would appear the runway closure was still lost on them even after they went to the press with its fabricated story.

[galdian]

A fine example of why the captain or FO should READ the NOTAMs I would have thought.

Happy to be corrected but Bali not a standard, everyday A320 operational destination?
If so sloppy the crew weren't more careful and too trusting of their ops division.

OR maybe they did, saw the NOTAM and asked OPS who said "yeah, discussing with the Indonesian authorities, expect it will be open as we're special at JQ..."

Be interesting to hear where the real breakdown was - and why - and what the powers to be are planning to do to ensure doesn't happen again.

Cheers

[SixDemonBag]

No I didn’t. Seems like much more of a problem than missing some NOTAMS then.

Impressive amount of fuel!

[PoppaJo]

OR maybe they did, saw the NOTAM and asked OPS who said "yeah, discussing with the Indonesian authorities, expect it will be open as we're special at JQ..."

Be interesting to hear where the real breakdown was - and why - and what the powers to be are planning to do to ensure doesn't happen again.

Cheers

The video with the crew briefing the cabin would indicate that they had no idea that it was closed, and they returned to Melbourne still not knowing that. They told the pax that they were not given a reason for the denied clearance and seemed confused.

It would also appear ops had no idea either as this is the statement they put out late Wednesday.

In a statement, a Jetstar spokesperson said Tuesday's Melbourne to Bali service had been swapped to a larger Boeing 787 aircraft to carry more customers.

"Unfortunately, due to a miscommunication, the aircraft swap was not approved by the local regulator in Indonesia," the spokesperson said

[KAPAC]

Divert to Darwin , wait , refuel and proceed ?

[aussieflyboy]

Divert to Darwin , wait , refuel and proceed ?

Ring Ops, Tell them the situation and give them the divert options, Do what they want.

[cLeArIcE]

Ring Ops, Tell them the situation and give them the divert options, Do what they want.
Yep.. this..
look I don't know what happened here and I assume there is more to the story than what's on here. But what I do know is that every crew member turns up to work to do their best but they get zero support. It literally feels like it's you against the world. The place functions when things are going as it should but as soon as something goes astray or non standard it's a dogs breakfast. You get no help from anyone. It's Just jetstar. How it's always been and how it always will be.
I do think that these incidents were less common previously because of the good will of the staff. There is of course none of that now. No one cares. And I don't Blame them one bit. Jetstar does not give one **** about it's staff and now they seem surprised that the staff no longer give a **** about them.

[mates rates]

I’m sure they retrenched their experienced operations staff during Covid!!Who ever replaced them are probably responsible for this stuff up?At the end of the day you get what you pay for and things like this are the result.From a pilots point of view,you have to check everything thoroughly,because you can’t trust inexperienced staff.But,having said that,your not expected to know the aircraft approvals for the Indonesian operation if this is the REAL reason for the turn back.

[tossbag]

You'd be expected to know it if it's written on a plate right?

[compressor stall]

You'd be expected to know it if it's written on a plate right?
if flight aware is correct…

They got airborne at 2314AEDST on Tuesday 27th. Thats 1214Z. Flight time 0504.
1718Z arrival. 40 min buffer.

Dunno the turnaround / crewing arrangements though.

[smiling monkey]

And this Air Asia A320 from CGK landed right on 2 am LT (1800 UTC) at DPS on the same night. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/qz7518#2ead1443

[das Uber Soldat]

Good question. First of all, it had nothing to do with aircraft change. If you have access to the airport charts I would suggest you read them.

This is a fine example kids why as pilots you cannot trust your operations team.

The runway was closed at that time! What did they plan to land on, the water? Always closed on a Wednesday morning! The initial delay caused this. They went to cross into Indonesian airspace and was told the runway is closed. Nothing to do with Indonesian's and nothing to do with an aircraft change.

What an incredible mistake by a company that is meant to be an airline! What else gets told to the media which we all are fooled to believe in other industries. Makes you wonder!

Maybe someone can find the information/chart and put it up here from the airport directory information.
You have absolutely no idea what you're on about.

[Trevor the lover]

Well that's an unbeatable argument Das

[mates rates]

You'd be expected to know it if it's written on a plate right?
I agree if planned runway closure as per the plate was the reason for the turn back, the pilots are to blame.So the CP will have to answer to management!!

[Astitine]

Maybe none of us have any idea, but I can read an ICAO Filing Form that states Aircraft Identification and Type of Aircraft. So you're telling me this was filed as an Airbus instead of a Boeing and Australian ATC missed it, the crew missed it, the dispatch team missed it and the Indonesian ATC as well. I am sure if it was filed incorrectly "months ago", then was there no way the passengers could disembark upon landing in Bali?

I may have no idea, but I have operated into there many times. So if you have an idea, instead of taking a pot shot, how about you tell us how such an error could occur? The stage is yours!

[Sparrows.]

I agree if planned runway closure as per the plate was the reason for the turn back, the pilots are to blame.So the CP will have to answer to management!!

What one? There was two on the flight deck. Whoops

[C441]

I agree if planned runway closure as per the plate was the reason for the turn back, the pilots are to blame.
…….As are the dispatch team and the Jetstar Ops centre who made the decision to use a 787 instead of a 320 and for not putting their combined 'expertise' together to determine that a departure after about 1200Z was futile if they wanted the aircraft to then leave DPS before 2300Z - and that's without even considering any crewing issues. I haven't been to DPS for ages but I'm guessing a turnaround in a 787 won't happen any faster than it used to for a 767 years ago.

[The Love Doctor]

I do think that these incidents were less common previously because of the good will of the staff. There is of course none of that now. No one cares. And I don't Blame them one bit.
could not have said it any better myself

[Colonel_Klink]

No I didn’t. Seems like much more of a problem than missing some NOTAMS then.

Impressive amount of fuel!

This was actually my first thought. Does the 787 normally take enough fuel on these Bali flights to fly to Broome and then divert back to Melbourne?

[das Uber Soldat]

Well that's an unbeatable argument Das

1. The flight would have easily arrived before runway closure
2. The runway closure on wed morning is not tightly adhered to. On the day in question several jet flights operated within the closure period, despite muppets in here heroically highlighting jepp plates
3. The departure would have been delayed by about 4 hours. That's basically early for the 787.
4. Flight plan a/c type submission is not the same paperwork as Indonesian FIR overflight approval.

This conspiracy drivel being bandied about, that the pilots didn't know about or allow for the runway closure is one of the dumber failings of the pprune brains trust, and that's saying something.

[Ushuaia]

1. The flight would have easily arrived before runway closure
2. The runway closure on wed morning is not tightly adhered to. On the day in question several jet flights operated within the closure period, despite muppets in here heroically highlighting jepp plates
3. The departure would have been delayed by about 4 hours. That's basically early for the 787.
4. Flight plan a/c type submission is not the same paperwork as Indonesian FIR overflight approval.

This conspiracy drivel being bandied about, that the pilots didn't know about or allow for the runway closure is one of the dumber failings of the pprune brains trust, and that's saying something.

This “muppet” simply provided the chart as factual info and made no judgement.

This “muppet”, like you, calculates that despite the delay the aircraft would have arrived WADD around 17:30z had it not turned around, i.e. before the notional closure.

I have been wondering about the flexibility of that closure though; mainly for a subsequent departure of the jet. Was some sort of concession not received, not communicated, and that affected the decision to proceed? I’d be surprised; I’d rather sit the jet there for a few unexpected hours than turn it around over BRM.

The whole shebang may well be an approved seats-per-week thing and the bigger aircraft meant that would be exceeded. Dunno what the go is these days.

I’m just rather curious and perplexed, because as a retired 20,000+ hours retired “muppet” of the Group I get asked all the time WTF is going on in Alan’s outfit, and frankly this turn back is pretty bewildering.

[Trevor the lover]

Das says
4. Flight plan a/c type submission is not the same paperwork as Indonesian FIR overflight approval.


Since you're a play the man not the ball guy Das - are you sure YOU know what you are talking about. One does not need an overflight approval to land at a foreign port, one needs a landing approval. One needs an overfly permit to overfly or a landing permit if that country is the end of the trip.. Don't mean to be a pedant but you want to call people muppets so it compels me to call you out. Secondly, some countries, such as Singapore and Malaysia, as long as the flight plan is filed within the statuatory period as defined in that country's Jeppesen requirements (usually two hours), then no overfly approval is required. Indonesia does need an overfly permit regardless - I can already hear you saying you knew that and we're talking about Indonesia.

I see no problem with Ushuaia posting that chart. Like you though Das - I don't believe that is the reason. But I'll debate his argument rather than calling him a muppet. Firstly, I don't know how many RPT guys would read the Jepp Charts for requirements rather than accepting the company's plan and reading NOTAMS. Corporate guys tend to look at those plates in their pre trip prep, particularly if the crew themselves do all the trip planning such as overfly permits, landing permits, ground handling etc. Jetstar and other RPTs, should and no doubt would, have this sort of standing information stored in their planning files.

Ush - firstly, if the times posted above are correct then they had a 40 minute buffer. And we all know the FMS system, with the STAR and approach put in, would give a very accurate landing time. Holding or vectors are a different ball game, but you would not likely be turned away for that. So the crew and JQ and anyone on flight radar could see whether they would make it or not.
Secondly, as a corporate driver of many years, I have spent many times on the sat phone back to the CP, or directly with the port itself, negotiating a revision to gain approval. The revision may be to a slot, a runway closure, a curfew, a landing permit, anything............. Only once did negotiation fail for me - fortunately we were on the ground in the middle east at the time - big delay replanning a reroute around the denying country. And I do recall once a German freighter not being allowed through China from Myanmar. Interestingly they were stuck for ideas and got on guard asking other crews for advice. To a man, every local aircraft listening that responded told em to give up, China say "Mayo", China mean "Mayo" (No). Everyone said your only option to get to HK was via Bangkok which could be easily negotiated via radio or phone (at a hefty fee no doubt).

[Lookleft]

Not knowing the inside story but I would imagine that the stuff up is completely internal. What was that airframe doing after it would have returned from DPS? Jetstar often ferry empty planes around the sky so the decision to return it to base would have been made on just having it back in ML and bugger the pax. Jetstar flights are often delayed out of Melbourne because the only bloke certified to tow planes to the gate is busy loading bags onto a 787. Before you jump in the engineers are not allowed to do it due to contractual obligations. If you think things are bad at Jetstar then you can officially call yourself an optimist, they are much worse.

[Mr_App]

This conspiracy drivel being bandied about, that the pilots didn't know about or allow for the runway closure is one of the dumber failings of the pprune brains trust, and that's saying something.
Are you sure? The company retimed the return flight to 0315 local departure from Bali. The passengers were notified in advance by message. The passengers were at the gate. The crew arrived for the flight.

Perhaps the return crew did know, but assumed they had an exemption so didn't raise it. The inbound crew might have know, they did have a 40 min buffer, explains why they appeared to have considerable fuel also. They don't really care about what is happening on the return leg so why would you raise it with Ops, that is their problem.

The question remains did Ops know. Seems unlikely. I don't think the crew did anything wrong here.

If you think things are bad at Jetstar then you can officially call yourself an optimist, they are much worse.
That dial won't move unless the new CEO wants to make some tough calls with what is her Management Team. COO is issue number 1. Alan likely has a tight grip on all decision making so she is likely powerless, a broom is needed across the entire team.

[Ushuaia]

….. Firstly, I don't know how many RPT guys would read the Jepp Charts for requirements rather than accepting the company's plan and reading NOTAMS.

I can assure you when I was with the “Group” every pilot read and knew the contents of the Jepp REF pages for an airport. I‘d be amazed if that has changed.

I’ve no doubt the northbound guys were aware of the published closure period and assessed they were ok. Whether their thinking extended to the return flight and its crew: well that’s lower order consideration for them and one where they may assume the “Company” has got it sorted.

The published closure is a significant factor in all of this. A significant length: 5 hours. The burning question I have is whether someone in the airline eventually decided that it wasn’t acceptable to have the jet sit on the ground for five hours. And have outbound pax sit at the airport for an extra five hours. That then begs the question (amongst the airline ops staff): “Why did we even allow the northbound to despatch?” The next question then of course being: “What do we do about it?” “And who do we attribute it to?”

I’m curious about when the DPS-MEL pax were advised there’d be no flight that night. Had they started to arrive at the airport or were they forewarned? JQ35 was < 2 hours from landing when it U-turned.

The published five hour closure is a significant factor and sure raises a bunch of questions. From everybody, even muppets.

[Trevor the lover]

Very valid points Ush - the return flight was gunna be an issue and I don't think, in that case, a deliberate attempt to circumvent the runway closure for departure, would be accepted by the authorities. I made the silly assumption that the five hours on the ground would be part of Jetstar's plan before departure, and accepted. Perhaps not - hence the recall, buggar the pax on both sectors.

[Skillsy]

All good points Ushuaia and Trevor the lover . Perhaps the ops centre were rattled and whilst a 5 hour delay due to late departure might be able to be tolerated and pulled back slightly, a 10 hour delay meant there was no return from here and thus diverting the flight meant they could get the following flights back on time however there appears to be an 8 hour wait in Melbourne before it took off to Phuket for it's next trip so I am a bit stumped.

This aircraft had already completed a Mel-DPS-BRS-DPS-Mel trip on the 26th/27th so this looks like a very rash decision by Ops and were there not other crews on board being shuttled? Perhaps they thought that a lot of people could go home so reducing the hotel bill a bit. All conjecture on my behalf.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Just the standard good old roll of the dice gone wrong.

The Indos have had enough as has everyone else tasked with trying to make this place work.

No fault of the crew at all, they were just pawns.

MCD

[AerialPerspective]

Passengers got to enjoy the vast countryside of Australia twice on their 787-8 but why?

Looking at Flight Radar, this is normally an A321 route so is this twitter thread reasonably accurate?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1021x1909/screenshot_2022_12_28_11_24_19_11_0b2fce7a16bf2b728d6ffa28c8 d60efb_3b4456a652bb1714469434198da5ef6ae37c787e.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x2000/screenshot_2022_12_28_11_11_08_32_8a6ce7ef6b1c5341b022b20d7f bb4b6e_d77d8d817f29f945aeed95b6173029abba88977f.jpg
Q35
"Returning back" is a tautology. Who is teaching English these days?

[AerialPerspective]

It could also be Indo error.

I’ve been denied clearance over a fairly pedantic country as they has the wrong aircraft type on file.
When submitted it was definitely correct.

VH-EBK (747-238B) painted in Air Pacific colours in the 80s drew the ire of US Customs upon arrival at LAX. Paperwork was required to 'prove' Qantas actually owned the aeroplane when it was operating QF17/QF18.

[AerialPerspective]

I assume that this was a long-planned aircraft change in which case seeking Indonesian and Australian Government approval is a given. It’s not a last minute task for the Flight Planners. They woukd have changed the aircraft type for slot and ground handling at which time it’s logical to suggest that requests for Government approvals would be made at the same time. Incompetence, negligence or lack of diligence is not synonymous with 'miscommunication'!

When I was there, in another department but we handled ASMs, when they were generated, they went to the relevant authorities as well. Still some chance this was an Indonesian cock up - but, of course, my experience was in the highly automated QF environment, not the 'little bit of automation plus sticky tape' environment of JQ where they say "what do we need this for??"

[AerialPerspective]

This was actually my first thought. Does the 787 normally take enough fuel on these Bali flights to fly to Broome and then divert back to Melbourne?

Probably tankering due to cost??

[MalcolmReynolds]

Seriously, just land the bloody thing in Bali and let the Bosses work out the paperwork later. What a clusterf*ck!

[illusion]

Seriously, just land the bloody thing in Bali and let the Bosses work out the paperwork later. What a clusterf*ck!

With lots of folding "paperwork" to get the crew out of gaol.
You have NFI.

[Ken Borough]

we handled ASMs,

AP,
How many on here would know what's an ASM? :}​​​​​​​

[The Love Doctor]

All good points Ushuaia and Trevor the lover .

This aircraft had already completed a Mel-DPS-BRS-DPS-Mel trip on the 26th/27th .

Where is BRS ? :confused:

[TWT]

BRS is Bristol, UK.

Perhaps they meant BNE ?

[The Love Doctor]

BRS is Bristol, UK.

Perhaps they meant BNE ?
Yeh possibly? I thought Bristol was a little out of the JQ network :cool:

[AerialPerspective]

AP,
How many on here would know what's an ASM? :}

Good point, it's an 'Ad-hoc Schedule Message'. It generates automatically with several fields including flight, date, routing, aircraft type and configuration.