Armed Forces will miss Christmas this year to deal with strike fallout, says Rishi Su

[langleybaston]

If so, pay them the rate for the job they are covering, including overtime and also a one-off bonus for strike-breaking. Say £1000 a head, flat rate.

[Herod]

"It's Tommy this and Tommy that, and throw him out, the brute;
But it's "Saviour of his country" when the guns begin to shoot."

PBI to the rescue..again.

[ShyTorque]

Happened over Christmas 1977 when the firemen went on strike.

It subsequently came to light that the armed forces personnel who stood in were on lower pay than the strikers.

[NutLoose]

Quite right too, and every sleezy member of both houses should also be in over Christmas to show the Government is there to support them and working to resolve the problem! :ugh:
Still, Rishi will be able to sit and look at the new £1000,000 plus statue just bought for his garden.

Shy, a lot of people got HGV 3's out of it and quite a few then left the RAF. It was drive through some cones across Saints parade square, around the other set of cones, pull up licence issued, next man does the same the other way IIRC.

[Dan Dare]

What happens when the armed forces start going on strike? I for one don't fancy crossing their picket lines.

[NutLoose]

What happens when the armed forces start going on strike? I for one don't fancy crossing their picket lines.

They call that mutiny

[Krystal n chips]

If so, pay them the rate for the job they are covering, including overtime and also a one-off bonus for strike-breaking. Say £1000 a head, flat rate.

How about....you also plonk this in JB UK Politics ?....however, as you probably won't, if the Gov't were to start negotiating, offering realistic pay increases, that sort of thing...then everybody could have the Christmas leave....you may be saddened to learn this "strike breaking " probably won't involve marching forwards with fixed bayonets however.

[Haraka]

N.B. With the Firemans' strike in '77 the Armed forces were very much bigger than now.The load was spread.over many more personnel.
Also the "48 hour" Firemans' week of course included their time on standby over two days a week
The Armed Services did 6 days a week "on" , one day off.......(3 times the hours IIRC of those they were replacing)

[Avtur]

SAC (OR2-5) salary is approx 25K pa and a "competent" firefighter basic salary is 32K pa BEFORE overtime etc. Shameful.

Royal Air Force Pay Scales 2022 - 2023 - Armed Forces - RAF Officers Pay - Armed Forces Pay Review Body -Fiftieth Report 50th 2022 Rates - Other Ranks Pay Rates - RAF 2022 Pay Review (http://www.armedforces.co.uk/rafpayscales.php#.Y5N0qnbMKUk)

https://www.fbu.org.uk/pay-rates/pay-settlement-2021

[MPN11]

I gather Border Farce and an RAF SAC are on about the same pay. The former doesn't get shot at, and the latter lives in subsidised [sh*t] accommodation.

Complicated, innit?

[higthepig]

Operation Deny Christmas kicks in every year for those still serving........

[MENELAUS]

How about....you also plonk this in JB UK Politics ?....however, as you probably won't, if the Gov't were to start negotiating, offering realistic pay increases, that sort of thing...then everybody could have the Christmas leave....you may be saddened to learn this "strike breaking " probably won't involve marching forwards with fixed bayonets however.

Realistic pay increases. ? Just where is this money meant to come from. We’ve already dwarfed the Jeremy Corbyn money tree by some measure.

[NutLoose]

How about....you also plonk this in JB UK Politics ?....however, as you probably won't, if the Gov't were to start negotiating, offering realistic pay increases, that sort of thing...then everybody could have the Christmas leave....you may be saddened to learn this "strike breaking " probably won't involve marching forwards with fixed bayonets however.

I tell you what, how about going and telling all those employees of small companies that may not have had a payrise in several years due to Covid or the energy crisis as firms struggle to survive.
Sorry, but a pay rise for anyone in the civil sector or the military even should not be a God given right, and I am ex military...
I know people that haven't had a pay rise in six or seven years, and are just glad they are still employed.
End of the day if anyone is not happy with their renumeration, look elsewhere, there are plenty that would be happy to fill your / their position.
Rant off.

As for having to work over the Christmas period, been there, seen it and done it, as a military singly, we would often volunteer to cover any duties, so those married guys amongst us could spend the day with their family and kids.

[RotorsTurningRefuel]

They only want us when they need us. We will be thanked and given a pat on the back, and that will be it until the next time. :ugh:

[langleybaston]

I t

As for having to work over the Christmas period, been there, seen it and done it, as a military singly, we would often volunteer to cover any duties, so those married guys amongst us could spend the day with their family and kids..

I was a shift worker until age 43 and always tried to avoid Christmas Day because we attend Midnight Mass at 24th 2300. However, I volunteered for every day or night otherwise, and especially New Year.
The poor married ones of our armed forces do not have the luxury of volunteering to cover for strikers. Thank you, boys and girls, from a grateful old git!

[melmothtw]

I tell you what, how about going and telling all those employees of small companies that may not have had a payrise in several years due to Covid or the energy crisis as firms struggle to survive.
Sorry, but a pay rise for anyone in the civil sector or the military even should not be a God given right, and I am ex military...
I know people that haven't had a pay rise in six or seven years, and are just glad they are still employed.
End of the day if anyone is not happy with their renumeration, look elsewhere, there are plenty that would be happy to fill your / their position.
Rant off.

As for having to work over the Christmas period, been there, seen it and done it, as a military singly, we would often volunteer to cover any duties, so those married guys amongst us could spend the day with their family and kids.

Heaven forbid they mess with your triple-locked pension though, eh Nutloose?

Anyhow, I thought we were going to be a high wage economy now we left the EU. Pretty sure that was the promise now we've been freed from all that pesky Eurocrat red tape. More pie in the sky.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Realistic pay increases. ? Just where is this money meant to come from. We’ve already dwarfed the Jeremy Corbyn money tree by some measure.

Ooo, irrelevant Jeremy Corbyn reference spotted. Seems there was enough money in the tree for buying votes from Unionists and chucking money at Tory backers flogging over-priced, substandard PPE, but what would I know about that last bit? I'm only an Intensive Care Nurse who had to throw away boxes and boxes of junk PPE during the pandemic...

On your question though, how about raising Corporate Taxes and others to comparable rates to those in other G7 countries and or comparable OECD countries? As it is the UK government seems to be trying to make up for the self-imposed sanctions of Brexit by turning these islands into another tax-haven.

Perhaps if more tax was raised some more money could be thrown at Defence as well as Health, the latter which has the 2nd lowest funding per capita in the G7, btw.

But "boo Corbyn" etc, eh?
​​​​​

[NutLoose]

Heaven forbid they mess with your triple-locked pension though, eh Nutloose?


Not there yet, just my mil one :)

[oldmansquipper]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/473x398/fb69e136_2cfb_4534_a7f9_c6130df0e4f4_82c34c1fac8784c4dd37910 bdf29076d4783595b.jpeg
Nuff said.

[ShyTorque]

What happens when the armed forces start going on strike? I for one don't fancy crossing their picket lines.

They aren’t allowed to strike. Which is makes it more galling that they are ordered to stand in for those that are.

[The Helpful Stacker]

They aren’t allowed to strike. Which is makes it more galling that they are ordered to stand in for those that are.

I don't believe the UK has had conscription for quite a while. I remember all my service being by choice, including the bits when I covered a firefighter strike and prepared to cover a tanker drivers strike.

I'm now in another profession by choice, a profession in which I'm allowed to be in a union.

We all make choices.

To add, you could even say that the freedom to be in a union was fought for by people like my grandfathers, given a certain mustache wearing German banned unions when he took power.

[nomilk]

I know people that haven't had a pay rise in six or seven years, and are just glad they are still employed.
End of the day if anyone is not happy with their renumeration, look elsewhere, there are plenty that would be happy to fill your / their position.

Sounds like they are not in very qualified positions that they have to hang on to a badly paid job.

Isn't the problem that people look "elsewhere"? So you think the best outcome will be that nurses get better-paid jobs? Please point out the plentiful supply of happy nurses, train drivers, teachers etc. You might be on to something ...

[reynoldsno1]

Happened over Christmas 1977 when the firemen went on strike.

I remember it well - though I was on an overseas posting at the time. I also remember having a great deal of sympathy for the firemen - this was the year many in the Armed Forces got their 'Irish pay rise' i.e., the increase in salaries was wiped out by the increase in messing & accommodation. ISTR I ended up with an extra 50p a week.

[OvertHawk]

I like the French model (not often you'll hear me say that!) where the fire services in the two largest cities are provided by the military specifically to prevent them going on strike.

It's the Army in Paris and the Navy in Marseilles. They're full time professional fire-fighters trained and equipped as would any modern urban fire service be - but they're under military discipline and can't go on strike.

[Geriaviator]

Funny that the brutal Serviceman is the one the country calls upon when normal service breaks down. Even in the past few years I can think of West Country floods, a dam in danger of breaching, the vast logistics operation to distribute Covid vaccines, Army medics on standby for Nightingale hospitals and overloaded NHS hospitals. In many cases the personnel concerned gave up their Christmas leave and treasured family time, were given cursory thanks by some snivelling politician, then sent on six-month deployments.

Elsewhere on the forum is a thread on the continuing persecution of old soldiers for chaotic events in Northern Ireland half a century ago as murderers walk free. But cheer up, there is some good news this month: a court has quashed the conviction of a prominent member of Sinn Fein/IRA for escaping from lawful custody 50 years ago, while Gerry Adams, who says he was not the IRA's leader, is seeking compensation for a similar claim.

[somewhereout]

I tell you what, how about going and telling all those employees of small companies that may not have had a payrise in several years due to Covid or the energy crisis as firms struggle to survive.
Sorry, but a pay rise for anyone in the civil sector or the military even should not be a God given right, and I am ex military...
I know people that haven't had a pay rise in six or seven years, and are just glad they are still employed.
End of the day if anyone is not happy with their renumeration, look elsewhere, there are plenty that would be happy to fill your / their position.
Rant off.

As for having to work over the Christmas period, been there, seen it and done it, as a military singly, we would often volunteer to cover any duties, so those married guys amongst us could spend the day with their family and kids.
Below inflation oay rises are pay cuts. Plenty of people are leaving across the pyblic sector. Also, the magic money tree is not a thing for a government that issues its own currency. Meantime sunak is making cost numbers up as division like this helps thentory vote

[Diff Tail Shim]

.

I was a shift worker until age 43 and always tried to avoid Christmas Day because we attend Midnight Mass at 24th 2300. However, I volunteered for every day or night otherwise, and especially New Year.
The poor married ones of our armed forces do not have the luxury of volunteering to cover for strikers. Thank you, boys and girls, from a grateful old git!
I'm a shift worker at 56. I am also in a union as well. Need to be in this world with the nasty c*** that seem to be about in charge of everything. Oh, the company was asked if we could vote on our union being recognised and all our department (union and non union) was asked to vote on it and the company would agree if the vote was more that 50% of department staff. It was a very high percentage. Nutty, were you even in the ALAE?

[staircase]

Let’s not say there is no money, but let us reflect on the £73 Billion (I think, IFS figures) that were wasted during the Truss weeks trying to buck the market. Add on the Billions gone on Test and Trace, Covid Bounce Back Loans and Furlough fraud. Then lets not mention the Billions gone in PPE fraud and waste.

Any one who watched the performance of Mark Harper, SofS for Transport at the select committee hearings last week, and read the Telegraph last Monday, can be in no doubt that a settlement of the rail strike at least is being held back by government. 7 Day Railway for example is code for giving up overtime payments at weekends – so effectively a pay cut.

As for the other strikes. The Independent Pay Review Bodies have their terms of reference, such as how much money there is and what political ramification there are to any settlement, laid down in a letter from the SofS before the annual process begins. And the Postal strike. Royal Mail is a private company and not in the Public Sector, but last year 2022 it paid a dividend of 9% per share. Nice work if you can get it given the rate on my savings.

I was on a Green Goddess during the Fireman’s Strike in 1977. The fireman were working 4 days when they trained, 4 nights when they slept, and 4 days off when they were taxi drivers / window cleaners etc. They were getting more than my Airman before they (the firemen) went on strike, and the County Fire Chief was being paid more then my AOC.

The standard British response would be Greedy Ba****ds, but my thoughts were ‘why is the Military treated so badly’?

Aid to the civil power was one thing, but living on a camp bed in a Drill Hall over Christmas, strike breaking was quite another, and the whole thing sowed the seed to my eventual PVR.

[NutLoose]

I'm a shift worker at 56. I am also in a union as well. Need to be in this world with the nasty c*** that seem to be about in charge of everything. Oh, the company was asked if we could vote on our union being recognised and all our department (union and non union) was asked to vote on it and the company would agree if the vote was more that 50% of department staff. It was a very high percentage. Nutty, were you even in the ALAE?


Nope... But I wasn't talking aviation, the guys I know were highly qualified, the problem they faced were if they moved they would incur substantial travelling costs.

[Krystal n chips]

The fireman's strike of 77 seems to have become the default comparison on here but it's not a reasonable comparison.

As has already been mentioned, there were a lot more military personnel available and the firemen had a very valid case, plus growing public support. My "Green Goddess " training was basically, this is a hydrant, this is a hose reel, there's the fire, point hose accordingly . However, I never deployed. Some of those who did weren't averse to doing so it has to be said for the change and variety....although for some, this changed rapidly after attending a couple of house fires in London...and recovering the former occupants once the fire was extinguished.

What many of those being critical of the proposed use of the military seem to conveniently overlook is, these industrial actions are not "spur of the moment ", strikes are very much the last, not the first resort and the reasons are cumulative over the years...plus, it helps, if, as reported, the Gov't actually begins to talk and negotiate...rather than refuse to do so.

[langleybaston]

The fireman's strike of 77 seems to have become the default comparison on here but it's not a reasonable comparison.

As has already been mentioned, there were a lot more military personnel available and the firemen had a very valid case, plus growing public support. My "Green Goddess " training was basically, this is a hydrant, this is a hose reel, there's the fire, point hose accordingly . However, I never deployed. Some of those who did weren't averse to doing so it has to be said for the change and variety....although for some, this changed rapidly after attending a couple of house fires in London...and recovering the former occupants once the fire was extinguished.

What many of those being critical of the proposed use of the military seem to conveniently overlook is, these industrial actions are not "spur of the moment ", strikes are very much the last, not the first resort and the reasons are cumulative over the years...plus, it helps, if, as reported, the Gov't actually begins to talk and negotiate...rather than refuse to do so.

Unless the strikers are civil servants, "the Government" are not the employers, and even then [semantics] it is the Crown.
And yet, loosely, although the employers are arms-length from Government, clearly the latter has a dog in the fight. As an example, the railways are enormously subsidised by the taxpayer, so any pay rise is likely to involve the Treasury. The Post Office does not involve Government except in so far as the service is essential. The NHS is definitely not Government-run [I am not convinced that it is "run" as most people define "run". And so on.
We hear "They" ought to do something about "it".
"It" is an omnishambles caused by short-termism [governments for many years], incompetence by over-paid administrators and ill-intent by the enemy within.

I should have emigrated to NZ when I had the chance ................. Oh! Wait ...............................?

[Krystal n chips]

Unless the strikers are civil servants, "the Government" are not the employers, and even then [semantics] it is the Crown.
And yet, loosely, although the employers are arms-length from Government, clearly the latter has a dog in the fight. As an example, the railways are enormously subsidised by the taxpayer, so any pay rise is likely to involve the Treasury. The Post Office does not involve Government except in so far as the service is essential. The NHS is definitely not Government-run , incompetence by over-paid administrators and ill-intent by the enemy within.

I should have emigrated to NZ when I had the chance ................. Oh! Wait ...............................?

I get the impression you aren't exactly in favour of unions and industrial action. However, when it comes to the NHS, you seem to have missed the bit about a certain Minister citing the pay review body's recommendation...so presumably you think all pay review bodies are totally independent, as they proudly state, and couldn't possibly be associated with Gov't policies.

Something else that's been mentioned " The Great Pay Rise ! "....it was a shame, as has also been mentioned, "The Great Claw Back " didn't receive [i]quite the same publicity at the time.

Nice bit of nostalgia at the end though...

[flash8]

Armed Forces will miss Christmas this year to deal with strike fallout, says Rishi SunakAh, the usual Tory from the rule book sow division amongst the public. It used to work a treat, but I think (from what I have read and viewed) this tactic has runs its course and folk are just plain sick of it.

[Mogwi]

Not much aviation content here.

Mog

[downsizer]

Not much aviation content here.

Mog

That long since ceased to be a requirement of this forum......

[dctyke]

Not much aviation content here.

Mog

there is not much going on with Webber bbq’s in the winter months I’m afraid. Be there will be more pages come thesummer.

[BEagle]

there is not much going on with Webber bbq’s in the winter months I’m afraid. Be there will be more pages come thesummer.

Let me educate you, if you must post such nonsense:

"There is not much going on with Weber barbecues in the winter months, I’m afraid. But there will be more pages, come the summer."

More likely in the spring though!

Now back to our normal channel - and hopefully with some actual aviation content!

[Bill Macgillivray]

Beagle, I agree, but do not hold out much hope at present !! (And I don't always agree with you !)
Merry Christmas. Bill.

[Ninthace]

It had to said. I know there is a similar thread but this explores something other than Weber barbecues and addresses the general principle of using the military for strike breaking. Mods, merge the threads if you wish We are not spare capacity for strikes, says Armed Forces headAdmiral Sir Tony Radakin warns it is ‘perilous’ to expect military personnel to be used routinely to cover public sector workers

The Armed Forces are not “spare capacity” for striking workers, the chief of the defence staff has said as he cautioned against relying on the military (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/12/16/britains-reliance-armed-forces-deal-public-sector-meltdowns/) as the “ultimate backstop” during industrial action.

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/07/tony-radakin-innovator-forward-thinker-changed-way-navy-works/), the head of Britain’s Armed Forces, said it would be “slightly perilous” to expect them to be used routinely in the event of strikes by public sector workers.

In an exclusive interview for The Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/17/tony-radakin-would-like-communications-russia-stronger/), Adml Radakin said the use of armed forces to provide cover for striking workers would not impede operations but suggested personnel should be allowed to get on with their day-to-day jobs.

“We’re not spare capacity,” he said. “We’re busy and we’re doing lots of things on behalf of the nation. We’ve got to focus on our primary role.”

[langleybaston]

I thought what he said was at the wet end of possible stances.

Taking the long view, the use of armed forces to cover for better-paid strikers has a double hazard:

resentment and dsicouragement of the forces misemployed and

resentment among the families and friends of the strikers, which will not help recruitment.

Our military should be seen as "us", not "them".

[cynicalint]

Military Aid to the Civil Powers (MACP) is one of the defence pillars of responsibility. But, that should only be invoked when the Civil Powers are fully manned and overwhelmed by circumstances that they need aid, to provide assistance beyond their established capabilities. MACP should certainly not be used as a back-stop for Civil Servants or public sector workers striking. There are innumerable examples of MACP being properly used, but strike-breaking should not be one of them.

[The Helpful Stacker]

It's always useful to remind some of the more forgetful folks on here.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1440x519/img_20221218_012458_e4464c12f193f7fbc060bf485f0bfe147cae8dc1 .jpg
But you know, cap doffed, forelock tugged..."humble, most humble, ever-so-humble, Sir's"

[megan]

strike-breaking should not be one of them.:ok: and the Military being asked to forsake an important to family life occasion, Xmas, New Year.

[[email protected]]

Operation DENY CHRISTMAS rolled out once more by a Govt failing to just run the country properly.

[langleybaston]

It's always useful to remind some of the more forgetful folks on here.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1440x519/img_20221218_012458_e4464c12f193f7fbc060bf485f0bfe147cae8dc1 .jpg
But you know, cap doffed, forelock tugged..."humble, most humble, ever-so-humble, Sir's"

Blushes, shuffles feet, grins foolishly, drops crystal balls and seaweed, exit untidily,

[Cornish Jack]

Stacker - I don't think that you understand the gradations of matters of importance on this forum. Burning pianos on Webers or the essential nature of wearing 'wings' on 'woolly pullys' must always outbid foolish concerns for the treatment of the 'oiks' ! Military Aviation is solely concerned with the importance, well-being and general niff-naff of the sky-gods ... all else is simply peripheral ! :rolleyes:

[1.3VStall]

Nothing new here chaps. I lost a number of my SNCOs for weeks in the 1970s - manning "Green Goddesses" during the firemens' strike. I seem to recall that the locals were grateful, rather than resentful!

[chevvron]

Civil servants will get overtime, but what about military personnel?

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Military Aid to Civil Authorities has been used routinely for decades. The (then) RUC were escorted by soldiers in order to continue their beats during the NI Troubles. The firemens strike, Covid, floods, excessive snow and so on.

It's what we signed up for, although personally I wasn't told I'd be driving a fire engine or filling sandbags when I took the Queeen's shilling.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2015-to-2020-government-policy-military-aid-to-the-civil-authorities-for-activities-in-the-uk/2015-to-2020-government-policy-military-aid-to-the-civil-authorities-for-activities-in-the-uk

For the more anal............. ;)

NEO

[trim it out]

Do aircrew do CIMIC/MACA outside of aviation related assistance? Covid testing most recently, firefighting/stacking cow carcass' 20 odd years ago etc?

[Cornish Jack]

There are innumerable examples of MACP being properly used, but strike-breaking should not be one of them.
Exactly so ! However, when the 'Government' is so restricted by incompetence and internal wrangling that inaction is the easier option, turn to those who aren't able to refuse ! And what better time to try to impose those same hamstrings on every other potential 'nuisance' service ! :rolleyes:

[SASless]

I have no Dog in this fight.

Being an outsider I can see the issues at hand without a lot of investment in any of the many sides clawing for the top of the high moral ground in this.

Christmas is approaching.

Trade Union action is a threat to that joyous time for all.

All...either affect or have the potential to affect participants in Uncle Charles's Flying Club and other chapters of similar allegiance.

All of that is fair meat for the grinder.

As most of you claimed to be Gentlemen and Ladies....today some may be claiming both.....I would think a bit of mutual respect would be part of that.

Key point is a lot of good folks might be required to be away from family as part of their assigned duties not normally assigned this Christmas..

Others are going to be deployed away from home on normal duties.

What say you focus on them and look for ways to support them and their families and leave the politics of all this to a thread in Jet Blast.

A lot of good points being made but are they more appropriately. discussed elsewhere?

[BATCO]

....However, when the 'Government' is so restricted by incompetence and internal wrangling that inaction is the easier option, turn to those who aren't able to refuse !....

Exactly so. The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 places a duty on NHS England and the individual NHS hospital trust, amongst others, to maintain - and when necessary, implement - contingency plans to maintain cover during 'events' (which includes strikes). Such plans should not include reliance on military assistance. The CCA2004 also provides for the Govt to bring proceedings in the High Court (and Court of Sessions) against these organisations for failures. I very much doubt any of the NHS (postal, rail or Border Force) executive will be summonsed.


Batco

[Flyhighfirst]

How about....you also plonk this in JB UK Politics ?....however, as you probably won't, if the Gov't were to start negotiating, offering realistic pay increases, that sort of thing...then everybody could have the Christmas leave....you may be saddened to learn this "strike breaking " probably won't involve marching forwards with fixed bayonets however.

Nurses have been offered 9%. They want 18%. Get real. 9% is realistic. If they then want to try their luck again next year for more go ahead. Nobody in the private sector is getting 9% let alone even dreaming of 18%.

They are going down the wrong path like XR. Once enough of the public has had enough and turn against them the government offer will change. To 2%. They can’t strike forever. Remember they plead that they can’t pay the rent or heat the house and get food on the wages they have so doing all that on zero isn’t going to last long…unless of course the underlying messaging is false.

[cynicalint]

So, the NEW cunning plan is to use Regulars as a last resort, but to call up Reservists first!!!
What happens if the reservist is in a civil occupation that is on strike? The MOD is obliged to pay the reservist, on call-up, the same wage they receive in civvy street - that is going to be expensive. It is hard enough to recruit reservists as it is; this will not make anything any easier. Political own-goal methinks!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/18/reservists-could-used-cover-strikes-ease-pressure-army/

[SASless]

I love it....Civvie walks....is in the Reserves...gets called up....is ordered to do his Civvie Job and draws a full pay packet while his civil mates are on the Dole at Christmas Time.....won't that make for an interesting exchange of Christmas Greetings!

Would said Reservist qualify for Hazardous Duty Pay on top of his bumped up Military Pay to meet Civvie pay rates?

Only Government could come up with such a cunning plan!

[megan]

The troops always respond when needed. Xmas 1974 the base was on leave and I was pulling the duty of Duty Air Officer for the period, cyclone hit Darwin on the evening of 24th December and flattened the city, call was put out through radio and TV for troops to return and the response was truly remarkable.

https://www.navy.gov.au/history/feature-histories/disaster-relief-cyclone-tracy-and-tasman-bridge

[EXATCO]

Christmas comes but once a firkin ...

[Brutha]

Nurses have been offered 9%. They want 18%. Get real. 9% is realistic. If they then want to try their luck again next year for more go ahead. Nobody in the private sector is getting 9% let alone even dreaming of 18%.

I think they’ve been offered around 4-5% (see link below). Close to 9% was offered, and accepted in Scotland.

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2022/11/09/nhs-industrial-action-media-fact-sheet/

[rattman]

The troops always respond when needed. Xmas 1974 the base was on leave and I was pulling the duty of Duty Air Officer for the period, cyclone hit Darwin on the evening of 24th December and flattened the city, call was put out through radio and TV for troops to return and the response was truly remarkable.

https://www.navy.gov.au/history/feature-histories/disaster-relief-cyclone-tracy-and-tasman-bridge

In australia reservist can refuse mobilisation for disaster / civil problems, I know that Scummo and Angus Campbell were wanting to change it in 2020 so that they could make it compulsory, I know they tried to amend the defence act so they could make it compulsory and remove the GG from decision making. Not sure if the amendment passed

[Martin the Martian]

Nurses have been offered 9%. They want 18%. Get real. 9% is realistic.

They most certainly have NOT been offered 9%. Try getting your facts right first.

[teddybear44]

Nurses have been offered 9%. They want 18%. Get real. 9% is realistic. If they then want to try their luck again next year for more go ahead. Nobody in the private sector is getting 9% let alone even dreaming of 18%. They are going down the wrong path like XR. Once enough of the public has had enough and turn against them the government offer will change. To 2%. They can’t strike forever. Remember they plead that they can’t pay the rent or heat the house and get food on the wages they have so doing all that on zero isn’t going to last long…unless of course the underlying messaging is false. Which nurses is that? I believe the offer is 4.75%. Civil Servants probably half of that. Rolls Royce pay deal? Stagecoach and Metroline bus drivers? Probably plenty I'd suggest.​​​​​​​

[The Helpful Stacker]

Nurses have been offered 9%. They want 18%. Get real. 9% is realistic. If they then want to try their luck again next year for more go ahead. Nobody in the private sector is getting 9% let alone even dreaming of 18%.

They are going down the wrong path like XR. Once enough of the public has had enough and turn against them the government offer will change. To 2%. They can’t strike forever. Remember they plead that they can’t pay the rent or heat the house and get food on the wages they have so doing all that on zero isn’t going to last long…unless of course the underlying messaging is false.

Start with getting your 'facts' right first. Nurses in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (the areas that will be on strike tomorrow) have been offered nowhere near 9%.

And why are you measuring what nurses get paid against other professions in the UK? The issue with the nursing shortage in the UK is, in part, as a result of the UK not being able to compete with other healthcare systems due to offering non-competitive wages and conditions.

Anyway, to avoid typing stuff out again, here is what I put the other week.

The ICU I work on was about 40% staffed by EU nurses in 2016. We had no vacancies at all. 2 year's later we were 25% understaffed, with very few EU nurses left and we were struggling to recruit.

As the person who did the majority of exit interviews I can confirm the overwhelming reason why EU nurses left was the feeling of not being wanted and/or the general attitude of animosity within society to EU citizens.

When the pandemic struck our unit was understaffed by nearly a third. We had to go from staffing 22 ICU beds at our hospital to eventually staffing 84. This was done by taking staff from other areas of the hospital that were equally affected by EU staff leaving.

As it stands now we're still 25% understaffed, despite recruiting directly from Southern India. The majority of our remaining experience was among our UK-trained staff but they're leaving for better paying jobs, largely as nurses in better paying healthcare systems such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US.

Simple facts are;
- NHS England is currently short 50k Registered Nurses.
- The global shortage of Registered Nurses is currently around 3 million.
- The majority of comparable and all primarily English-speaking healthcare systems pay Registered Nurses more than the NHS.
- The UK is the 2nd lowest by capita funded healthcare system in the G7 (only Italy lower).

Wages are set at governmental level, as per the Agenda For Change terms. NHS Trusts are not able to offer better terms and conditions to either attract sufficient numbers of nurses or retain them, whether local or overseas recruited. As such it's not an "administrative failure" of the NHS but a governmental failure to address the shortage by paying wages that are competitive in the global market.

I have my reasons to remain in the UK currently (daughter at university) but in 2 years my wife and I will likely be leaving as the global shortage of nurses is unlikely to improve and, for the skills I have, I can nearly triple my wages with better terms and conditions.

The NHS/Health, as with the majority of departments, has been left to crumble by a negligent government.

For those who feel privatisation is the answer, you'll still need staff and if they're not being paid a wage that completes on the global market, you'll still have understaffed facilities. ​​​​ ​​​​​

As in ICU nurse I have to work if rostered on strike days, due to our policy to cover ICU/Emergency areas, but as I'm not rostered in tomorrow I will be on the picket line with my colleagues.

​​​​​​​The Trust is asking for additional ICU and Emergency staff to come in on overtime/Bank shifts to provide extra capacity but, given that they're usually happy to run us understaffed, no one that I know is biting.

[Ninthace]

Power to your elbow, Stacker. The nurses, like many other public services, have clearly reached the point of enough is enough and are heartily sick of being undervalued and underpaid.

LB: The oblique reference to the treatment of immigrants does you no credit and does nor advance your argument as it is a separate issue. They have to be housed somewhere while they are processed. They are guilty of no crime and the numbers involved are as much a product of years of underspending and cutbacks in the immigration service as the strikes in the NHS are a result of the same lack of long term planning and provision for the health services..

[flash8]

Power to your elbow, Stacker. The nurses, like many other public services, have clearly reached the point of enough is enough and are heartily sick of being undervalued and underpaid.
Ditto, I can only concur, but would like to add this has been a deliberate policy by the government in its attempt to decimate the NHS. On my last visit to the UK (after 10 years of the Tory Reich) it resembled some third world backwater (and I've seen my fair share of them).