F35 pilots -

[CAEBr]

- rarer than rocking horse ****

news.sky.com/story/uk-has-more-f-35-fast-jets-than-pilots-to-fly-them-ben-wallace-admits-12735825 (http://news.sky.com/story/uk-has-more-f-35-fast-jets-than-pilots-to-fly-them-ben-wallace-admits-12735825)

23 jets in the UK, more than 1 per pilot. Interesting that "the defence secretary described the situation as "quite a challenge", claiming that the deficit in pilots was also because the F-35 Lightning aircraft is new" What is his definition of new ?

Have China got more aircrew than we have?

(Mods, feel free to move to one of the other threads on F35 or training if you feel its more relevant)
​​​

[Bob Viking]

Can someone tell me what would happen in industry if there were a critical shortage of highly skilled people in a key role?

You can give any answer you like as long as it doesn’t involve money. Because it’s not about the money.

BV

[Saintsman]

Can someone tell me what would happen in industry if there were a critical shortage of highly skilled people in a key role?

BV

They bring them in from abroad?

[Bob Viking]

Excellent answer. Maybe that’s the solution.

Perhaps the second part of my question should be what would happen in industry to prevent those highly qualified individuals that you already have from leaving?

The answer must still not involve money. Because money is not the answer.

BV

[Bengo]

Can someone tell me what would happen in industry if there were a critical shortage of highly skilled people in a key role?

You can give any answer you like as long as it doesn’t involve money. Because it’s not about the money.

BV
Industry would first attempt to poach someone else's experts and if unsuccessful, then try with the inexpert. Finally they would make an attempt to find an alternative which did not need the experts.

N

[Bob Viking]

Another excellent answer but poaching sounds awfully expensive. That sounds suspiciously like you are suggesting that money is the answer. But that can’t be right. Because we have been repeatedly told that money is not the answer.

I’m so confused.

BV

[Herod]

I flew the C-130 back in the early seventies. I volunteer. It can't be that hard....can it? :rolleyes:. That doesn't involve money, Bob; I'll do it for free.

[roll_over]

What is the salary of a fast jet pilot?

[GeeRam]

Industry would first attempt to poach someone else's experts and if unsuccessful, then try with the inexpert. Finally they would make an attempt to find an alternative which did not need the experts.

N

This is so true.

[GeeRam]

Industry would first attempt to poach someone else's experts and if unsuccessful, then try with the inexpert. Finally they would make an attempt to find an alternative which did not need the experts.

N

Another excellent answer but poaching sounds awfully expensive. That sounds suspiciously like you are suggesting that money is the answer. But that can’t be right. Because we have been repeatedly told that money is not the answer.

I’m so confused.

BV

Poaching is awfully expensive, which is why, although that's the first route, the bean counters demands on the purse strings usually means 9 times out of 10, that the poaching option falls at the first hurdle.....and thus the move to Option 2 begins.....

[ACW599]

Industry would first attempt to poach someone else's experts and if unsuccessful, then try with the inexpert. Finally they would make an attempt to find an alternative which did not need the experts

No, no. That's such a twentieth-century solution. You get the marketing department to produce a lavishly illustrated brochure showing how lean 'n' mean your organisation is and explaining why the number of pilots you have has been carefully optimised by world-class experts to be a perfect match to the number of airframes. In passing the brochure greenwashes the very low carbon footprint of the airframes, claims that they only use biomass-derived non-fossil fuel and can be fully recycled at the end of their lives. And so on and so forth ad nauseam.

[Mogwi]

I could get some hovering practice in with the Tiger Moth with today’s wind!

Mog

[teeonefixer]

Industry would first attempt to poach someone else's experts and if unsuccessful, then try with the inexpert. Finally they would make an attempt to find an alternative which did not need the experts.

N

In my experience, the number1 option is to subcontract out - the best results come from organisations which employ our former colleagues! Those that don't take a lot of additional recovery work.

[Timelord]

From what I hear, if it’s not about money, it’s about quality of life. Pilots (aircrew) have lost their status, their admin and support. Getting their leave allocation is rare as is time at home. They are submerged by trivia to such an extent that they have to regularly work 12 plus hour days despite only flying 6-10 hours a month. The pilots I know would forgo a pay rise if some of the QOL issues could be fixed.

[RAFEngO74to09]

UK Defence Secretary > HCDC just now - 33 F-35B pilots for 27 aircraft (including 3 x foreign - 1 x USAF / 1 x USMC / 1 x RAAF).

Only 13 of these are on the 12-aircraft front-line squadron (617 Sqn).

My comment: This of course is not only way below required NATO standards but insufficient for 24 hour ops + flying supervision.

On F-35B deliveries, it will take until 2025 to get 48 and "end of the decade" to get 74 [my comment: by comparison, RAAF will have all its 72 x F-35A by 2023].

On training pipeline:

Pilots holding for Valley AFT going backwards - now 51 vs 38 when CAS told 3 years ago to sort it - 9 holding post AFT for OCU - pilot entry hold down from 120 3 years ago > 25 now.

HCDC wants to see CAS ASAP.

Parliamentlive.tv - Defence Committee (https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0df5d051-ae43-44d8-925b-8e7f744ff145)

[Bing]

From what I hear, if it’s not about money, it’s about quality of life. Pilots (aircrew) have lost their status, their admin and support. Getting their leave allocation is rare as is time at home. They are submerged by trivia to such an extent that they have to regularly work 12 plus hour days despite only flying 6-10 hours a month. The pilots I know would forgo a pay rise if some of the QOL issues could be fixed.

But how do you fix the QOL issues without money? Which isn't the answer.

[Timelord]

But how do you fix the QOL issues without money? Which isn't the answer.

Ban anyone in the admin branch from e mailing squadron aircrew?

[charliegolf]

Can someone tell me what would happen in industry if there were a critical shortage of highly skilled people in a key role?

You can give any answer you like as long as it doesn’t involve money. Because it’s not about the money.

BV

It is partly about money, because in the scenario you describe, industry would 'beat the problem to death with dollars'!

CG

[Asturias56]

careful folks - anyone from the Treasury reading this thread will think the obvious answer is to scrap the excess airframes....................

[alfred_the_great]

Of course an interesting question might be the relative ratio of pilots:aircraft between different fleets.

are, for example, young pilots being allocated on an equitable basis between F35 and Typhoon?

[Bob Viking]

You may not have picked up on my facetious tone. I, and anyone else who has not drunk the koolaid, knows it absolutely is about the money. But we are repeatedly told that money is not the answer.

Obviously it is a little more nuanced than that though.

Years of pay stagnation/real terms cuts, pension changes, poor married quarters, queep (google it if necessary) and opportunities elsewhere that can pay alot more. All set against a backdrop of zero money and a world in which any pay deal needs to be approved by the tri-service bean counters. One problem is that an AAC Corporal Helicopter pilot comes a lot cheaper than an F35 pilot. But they are viewed in exactly the same way. Another problem is, exactly as Timelord has alluded to, Aircrew have been marginalised. There are very large swathes of the RAF/Military that feel that pilots are nothing special. Sadly many companies outside disagree.

I would argue that a human that takes many years and many millions of pounds to train (I’m talking about all pilots here by the way not just FJ pilots) and actually understands the application of air power (this bit is completely ignored and just look at AVM Maria Byford as the very personification of what I’m talking about) is someone that should maybe be made to feel valued.

Anyway, I’m becoming like a stuck record and it really doesn’t affect me any more so I’ll zip it.

BV

[T28B]

(Mods, feel free to move to one of the other threads on F35 or training if you feel its more relevant)​​​
The archer is critical to the use of bow and arrow; likewise with pilots and flying machines. (This is not a UAV thread, so don't anyone go there please).
This thread has ample merit.

[tarantonight]

From my understanding the whole system is completely screwed.

40 - 60 years ago, from Day 1 (Civvie Street) to Front Line Aircrew, 20 - 24 months.

Now 7 - 8 years in some cases??.

What on earth has it come to??.

Disgraceful,

TN.

[GeeRam]

careful folks - anyone from the Treasury reading this thread will think the obvious answer is to scrap the excess airframes....................

The figures would look even worse if we hadn't already dropped one into the oggin.....:E

[lefty loose]

FOI response 2021

[uxb99]

Is the F35 too challenging for the average pilot to fly?
I remember reading that a front-line fighter is designed to be flown by the most average of pilots.

[oldmansquipper]

Perhaps send the spare airframes direct to Beijing? I’m told there are some ex AF FJ pilots out there who might be interested…..

IGMC!

[Diff Tail Shim]

What is the salary of a fast jet pilot?
Not that great. Certainly not for a senior JP. Lifestyle is the issue I wager. Wartime levels away from home is not good for the dog. Nor a training system that takes decades to get Combat Ready pilots does kill morale. Mate of mine jumped from Tonka's early to go JSF. And watched his conversion course go right wing. And so far he jumped into something else on offer.

[fokker1000]

I would suggest that morals might come into question as well as duty to the King and Country... However maybe they equate their values to those of our politicians. Sad as the guys I met had more moral fibre.

[MJ89]

All in the bean counters "weapons system life plan", Proclaim 135, 1 a year for 15 years, Aim for, 48 planes...so 48 pilots--possible/eventually, purchase 24, retire early in 2035 and await f85+, in 2052. oh and off course..using some kind of reverse PFI
sell them to the U.S marines.

[rattman]

Apparently theres 3 RAF / Fleet Air Arm going through flight training in Australia atm

[Big Pistons Forever]

No problem here, You are seeing the benefits of the RAF world leading temporally optimized, human centric, future proofed Air Force strategy to right size the kinetic deliverable footprint of British defense solutions.:D

3 Years in the CAF Ottawa puzzle palace did wonders for my vocabulary :p

[pr00ne]

Can someone tell me what would happen in industry if there were a critical shortage of highly skilled people in a key role?

You can give any answer you like as long as it doesn’t involve money. Because it’s not about the money.

BV


Having been involved in things like this several times over the last 4 decades, both as an adviser and a practising departmental manager, I can assure you that any half decent industry or business would not have allowed itself to get into this situation in the first place! There would be strange things being done, like forecasting, model demand planning, attrition forecasting, output demand planning, scenario gaming and worst case scenario options. All of these things are alien to your average VSO, which explains why the RAF is in the current fix it is finds itself in, AGAIN!

It sacked 300 trainee aircrew not so long ago, it had retention schemes before that to keep people in, previous to that it had redundancy schemes to get rid of people...

It has massively reduced the value of being aircrew in terms of comparative salary, it has outsourced the responsibility for training output to a private consortium then dicked that consortium around in terms of required output. It has allowed the consortium to invest in tiny training fleets with no challenge or seeming interest.

On top of all this it has massively reduced annual and monthly flying hours. I spoke to 3 Typhoon aircrew recently whose main complaint was that they so rarely get to do what they joined up to do, fly! When I told them that back in my day I could expect a NATO minimum of 280 hours a year and would aim at 30 hours a month, and as a JP I could achieve that, albeit a bit more of a challenge for the more senior types, they were open mouthed. And on top of this they were also weary of constant detachments taking them away from home for lengthy periods, although they were happy with the flying rate on such, operational, detachments. And that is another key issue, whereas in my day we were a practising or rehearsing air force, today's RAF is a genuine war fighting operational force in which you will see action.

I realise that you are being a tad facetious in saying that it's not about the money, because it is, but surely it is also about absolutely crass decision making at the top by VSO's year after year and decade after decade.

Something Is rotten in the state of High Wycombe/Main Building.

[havick]

They bring them in from abroad?

China has done just this, per another thread running.

[fdr]

No problem here, You are seeing the benefits of the RAF world leading temporally optimized, human centric, future proofed Air Force strategy to right size the kinetic deliverable footprint of British defense solutions.:D

3 Years in the CAF Ottawa puzzle palace did wonders for my vocabulary :p

:} you forgot about alighting upon water to optimise tyre wear.

The F-35 is no doubt fun to drive, it is however planned to be a BVR type "weapons system" reliant on it's LO design to get some tactical advantage and to mess about with the irate recipients responses. That would suggest that gazillions of flat plate TV screens and/or VR would be nice to push through gloop into the sausage machine. The tactics are more pre cannable than prior ACM systems, and ground attack is a planning exercise as much as a repetitive in air training procedure. Mods can speak to B model learning curve, it is probably the most demanding part of the skills development, even chopper drivers are going to take some time there. For non STOVL, the sausage machine that applies to the EFA may not be all appropriate to the F-35. More training is fantastic, but if it takes 8-10 years to burp out a driver, and then you kink them out after 10 years due to RIF, T&Cs, etc, then the program is set to fail. If the system persists with a pipeline that doesn't achieve the need, then perhaps a change is needed, including reservists, or asking the PRC if the RAF can rent some FJ drivers back...

If Jessica Biel can do it... :ok:

With monthly F/Hrs, would think that the ratio of sim/FH would be fine at 8:1 - 10:1, with a plane like the F-35. Separately, the RAF HR honchos have done well to spike the system as an own goal. Should be worthy of a note of appreciation from Dear Leader Xi.

[mahogany bob]

Should pilots flying pay be MORE than other aircrew trades??

[ACW599]

No problem here, You are seeing the benefits of the RAF world leading temporally optimized, human centric, future proofed Air Force strategy to right size the kinetic deliverable footprint of British defense solutions.:D 3 Years in the CAF Ottawa puzzle palace did wonders for my vocabulary :p

Ah, but you forgot to mention the key stakeholders curating the... (sorry, brain's tripped again)

[Asturias56]

I was sandwiched between two very senior managers at an industry lunch one day- all the talk was about the (latest) crisis sweeping the industry. Both had laid of vast numbers of staff and the talk went to how they choose the slain

Company A - we reckon we won't be back to normal for 6-8 years so we fired everyone over 50 as when the turn comes they'll be so close to retirement they're not much use.

Company B - we reckon 6-8 years is about right - so we fired everyone under 30 as we reckon we retain the experience and we'll have plenty of time to train new bodies later on

To be fair they both could see the stupidity of either course

[Tay Cough]

There are very large swathes of the RAF/Military that feel that pilots are nothing special. Sadly many companies outside disagree.

Most don’t, although the baseline is much higher of course. Most are having a fight in some form to keep pace with inflation.

[muppetofthenorth]

Apparently theres 3 RAF / Fleet Air Arm going through flight training in Australia atm
The RAAF doesn't fly -35Bs, so how useful is that actually?

[rattman]

The RAAF doesn't fly -35Bs, so how useful is that actually?

They are training them to fly, they are being trained on PC-21 and hawks. They will then probably go to the US for actual F-35 training

They could also train them on A's at 2nd OCU, then they get B specific training in the UK or US. But not sure RAAF would want flight hours being put on our F-35's with out be compensated. There is already at least 1 USAF and 1 RAAF flying B models in RAF so theres obviously training between the models

[Doctor Cruces]

From my understanding the whole system is completely screwed.

40 - 60 years ago, from Day 1 (Civvie Street) to Front Line Aircrew, 20 - 24 months.

Now 7 - 8 years in some cases??.

What on earth has it come to??.

Disgraceful,

TN.
IMHO, it all stems from outsourcing training to private companies whose only remit is to extract maximum profit for minimum investment and minimum effort and who have no real idea of anything else. To them, delays of pilots reching the pointy end is not an issue.

[Doctor Cruces]

The RAAF doesn't fly -35Bs, so how useful is that actually?
I imagine it will be priceless when selection people for exchange postings with the USAF! :)

[Baldeep Inminj]

I read with interest that there are 3 RAF pilots training in Oz. The Gov't confirmed a few weeks ago that are looking at 'overseas' options to train pilots due to the abject failure of MFTS. My question is this - does anyone know if MFTS/Ascent are being fined or otherwise sanctioned for failing to meet their contractual obligations? Personally I believe the entire board of Ascent should resign after squandering tens of millions of taxpayers money on delivering...nothing.

As an aside, the RCAF has recently given it's pilots a HUGE payrise to try to improve retention (pilots bumped from 125k 'ish to 180k'ish). I am waiting with baited breath to see if has any effect. The pay that UK Mil pilots receive is simply derisory, and before anyone shouts, I know that someone does not dream of becoming an RAF pilot to get rich - I get it (I was one for almost 3 decades). However, when I joined I was young, stupid, keen as mustard, single, and had no commitments. Slew forward 10 years and I was married with 2 kids and believe me, money was a very real issue. Money does not recruit RAF pilots, but it absolutely retains them. I left for money, and for no other reason - not housing, not 'quality of life' etc..just money. For me at least, money was the answer and I know I am not alone.

I now get my pension paid to my UK bank account, and I live in North America working for a well known defence company (not in a flying role). My salary is roughly 4 times what I earned as a PA pilot, and that is before my annual bonus which last year was more than a years RAF salary. Guys staying in should do it for the love of the job, as the money to be made outside is almost obscene, particularly if you are prepared to leave the cockpit - staying in a flying role severely limits what you can earn, even as a long haul Captain at a major carrier. The money is in management and decision making.

Money most certainly is the answer, and as long as the MoD refuse to accept that and act on it, they are guaranteed to fail.

[Lonewolf_50]

Money does not recruit RAF pilots, but it absolutely retains them. From this side of the pond.
The USAF and USN discovered in the 1980's that (with a platform by platform review every few years) a retention bonus targeted at key points (after first tour or second tour) kept people around.
Those programs are still in existence, though they morph a bit from year to year.

[ACW342]

I could get some hovering practice in with the Tiger Moth with today’s wind!

Mog
Mog, never mind hovering. I used to do zero turn circuits in a Grunau Baby at AngliaGC (Wattisham) Winch to 1200' Speed back to 21kts 1/4 spoilers and at 300' full spoilers and land ahead.

[Timelord]

I’m no supporter of MFTS but I believe the leaked briefing that brought all this to light showed that MFTS was more or less doing it’s job. The bottle neck was entry to RAF run OCUs which were unable to process students because of lack of resources / other commitments. The other significant problem is Hawk T2 engines which was also a government, not industry, procurement.

[NutLoose]

Well the military is struggling on the whole, look at the Army, they will take people back who were medically discharged in certain categories or even thrown out of the service, again in certain categories!!!
Just do not join as a dog handler.

[Geordie_Expat]

Putin might be right:

The West is decadent.

Panem et circenses.

Apparently our society has no problem to pay people multiple hundred thousand £ PER WEEK for kicking a ball but is not willing to pay adequately for defense.

Haaland is on 900.000£ per week, which would be sufficient to fund 468 combat pilots with a salary of 100.000£ per year.

Don't think Man City needs 468 combat pilots !!

Society doesn't pay footballers salary, the clubs do so a somewhat silly comparison.

[MPN11]

Don't think Man City needs 468 combat pilots !!

Society doesn't pay footballers salary, the clubs do so a somewhat silly comparison.
Silly .. perhaps. But a reflection of the distorted values we put in place these days.

[Bob Viking]

I agree that it is silly. However, I’d struggle to find a better example of how a business (Man City) pays the going rate for someone with a niche set of skills. Maybe the military can learn something from the Premier League. I’d have been more than happy with just one of Haaland’s weekly wages as an annual salary though.

BV

[MPN11]

A complicated parallel to draw, of course. Mr. F-35 doesn’t draw paying/baying crowds to watch his skills in potentially lethal combat.

[rattman]

I’m no supporter of MFTS but I believe the leaked briefing that brought all this to light showed that MFTS was more or less doing it’s job. The bottle neck was entry to RAF run OCUs which were unable to process students because of lack of resources / other commitments. The other significant problem is Hawk T2 engines which was also a government, not industry, procurement.
Haven't seen the report in question, but I have been seeing the that it is at all levels, even EF squadrons are having pilot shortages, worst effected are F-35, but all squadrons and all types are facing shortages

[WB627]

Silly .. perhaps. But a reflection of the distorted values we put in place these days.

I agree that it is silly. However, I’d struggle to find a better example of how a business (Man City) pays the going rate for someone with a niche set of skills. Maybe the military can learn something from the Premier League. I’d have been more than happy with just one of Haaland’s weekly wages as an annual salary though.

BV

A complicated parallel to draw, of course. Mr. F-35 doesn’t draw paying/baying crowds to watch his skills in potentially lethal combat.

Absolutely to all of the above, but.....

What value do you place on the "niche skills" of a Doctor or a nurse who has also spent many years in training and has the responsibility of the lives of many other people in their hands.

[Chugalug2]

Something Is rotten in the state of High Wycombe/Main Building.
This!

[Flyhighfirst]

I agree that it is silly. However, I’d struggle to find a better example of how a business (Man City) pays the going rate for someone with a niche set of skills. Maybe the military can learn something from the Premier League. I’d have been more than happy with just one of Haaland’s weekly wages as an annual salary though.

BV

This is a silly comparison. There may be a few hundred in the country that could perform to the standard you set in football. I hate footballers by the way.. but there are literally hundreds of thousands that would pass the standard tests to be a pilot, and a fair few of them would make the cut.

The challenge is to get people to apply in the first place, and then to retain them.

Nobody goes into the military to become well off. They may go into it to get a skill that they can use in the private sector , but who blames them. There is only so many air marshals, a good few are expected to leave.

You can’t have pay that is good enough to retain everyone as there is no room for everyone. You need turnover. In times of war you can call on these to return.

The challenge is to make the salary good enough to bring people in, but not good enough to keep them. Except for the few that go on to the top.

[Timelord]

You can’t have pay that is good enough to retain everyone as there is no room for everyone. You need turnover. In times of war you can call on these to return.

.

Unfortunately, For turnover to work you need a functioning training system!

[KrisKringle]

This was all so predictable.
(I only refer to fighter pilots but acknowledge the acute retention problems in other pilot streams, RAF specialist branches and trades).

I remember 14 years ago the whole MFTS proposal was doomed to fail in terms of delivering fighter pilots to the frontline (quality and numbers). Concerns fell on deaf ears. Our masters told us "it must work, whatever it takes". Well, this mantra continues and the golden eggs that had kept the fast jet pilot training system flowing - 208 squadron and 100 squadron (in part) - were culled prematurely. They were killed off to a. free up cash to plough in to MFTS "to make it work, whatever it takes" b. free up experienced IPs and c. draw-down the Hawk T1 which, despite producing world-class talent, was seen as getting progressively less airworthy in comparison to the T2. Unbelievably, the RAF now sends pilots to the USA to fly a more risky aged trainer, at a much lower output standard (as evidenced by a CFS report) and at a higher cost.

Predictably, the closure of these squadrons saw most of the IPs walk while the productivity and quality from MFTS (in the most part, not the fault of Ascent) worsen. Even backfilling IPs from the frontline and OCUs (hence, one reason for the deficiencies here on this thread).

In terms of retention, some western air forces recognise the value of these precious (!) fighter pilots and thus give them a superior 'package': pay and conditions. The RAF on the other hand, penalised their best talent. I know this view of fighter pilots rubs people the wrong way but these really are the 'best of the best' by being continually selected from the top of all their training courses. These courses are massively stressful too - they require years of high tariff study and every flight could be their last in terms of performance ("every flight is a chop ride"). So, what does the RAF actually do? It pays these pilots much less than those that didn't quite achieve the top assessments. This is down to flying pay (nb this used to be paid due to the dangerous nature of the job, in both training and war, but now, apparently, it is solely said to be for retention) which is now only paid once a pilot passes the OCU. 7-8 years for a fighter pilot in the RAF due to a much longer (broken) training system. Where as ME and rotary pilots will pass their OCU within 2-3 years. So fighter pilots are 5 years behind in flying pay which works out as £100,000s over a medium career due lagging behind all the increments. That isn't a great way to treat your best people. Add to that, F35 pilots don't fly much (foreign air forces mock the RAF for this nowadays), with endless long deployments (8 months on a ship for F35 pilots), a crap base location in Norfolk, a jet that actually isn't that great to fly, endless days of nugatory duties, spending the majority of 'flying' in the synthetic environment, hassled by lack or resource, support and allowances (thus a constant fight against the system), revolving door OCs with no stability in leadership...the list goes on.....

....this was all so predictable

[PPRuNeUser0211]

This is a silly comparison. There may be a few hundred in the country that could perform to the standard you set in football. I hate footballers by the way.. but there are literally hundreds of thousands that would pass the standard tests to be a pilot, and a fair few of them would make the cut.

The challenge is to get people to apply in the first place, and then to retain them.

Nobody goes into the military to become well off. They may go into it to get a skill that they can use in the private sector , but who blames them. There is only so many air marshals, a good few are expected to leave.

You can’t have pay that is good enough to retain everyone as there is no room for everyone. You need turnover. In times of war you can call on these to return.

The challenge is to make the salary good enough to bring people in, but not good enough to keep them. Except for the few that go on to the top.
​​​​​​
don't necessarily disagree with the point about footballer pay. However - the rest of your argument is pretty flawed here.

A) if you have a training system capable of outputting 12 pilots a year, and your system insists on having a fairly broad * rank structure, who exactly is going to fill those posts if 3/4 of your cohort leave? (Debate whether this is a bad thing!)

B) pilot training is *really* expensive. If you have a choice of retaining a trained pilot for 6 years (i.e. to end of return of service) or keeping them slightly happier and retaining them for 9, you've just saved quite a lot of money, whilst still retaining a sensible demographic. Your turnover argument is more valid in areas where training cost is lower. If you want evidence for this the USAF commissioned a study on recruitment Vs retention relatively recently and was told in no uncertain terms that they were smoking crack to not be paying money to retain aircrew in general.

C) No one goes into the military to be well off, but no one goes into the military to live in a house with asbestos ceilings collapsing into their children's bedrooms either... If you fail to deliver in some areas (infrastructure, QoL etc) then you have to over-deliver in others (i.e. pay). As a simple example, if you can't deliver decent quarters, you have to pay enough for folks to afford decent accommodation on the outside.

[typerated]

Perhaps it is no suprise the majority of F-35 flights in the UK are from these:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52328001606_591ba5b235_h.jpg

[wiggy]

A complicated parallel to draw, of course. Mr. F-35 doesn’t draw paying/baying crowds to watch his skills in potentially lethal combat.

To continue that digression for a minute, agreed...Football finance has got more complex recently but the scale of pay in the Premiership originally was in part due to individuals (not society) being prepared to pay to watch football and then how that money was distributed - who got the biggest chunk - the players? board? Owners? and merchandise sales....It's widely believed Ronaldo's move back to MU was more about shirt sales than goals.

If somebody can find a way of selling the rights to watching air combat on live TV and also start selling Goose/Maverik T-shirts at the Squadron store outside the station gates then the comparisons with the likes of Haaland might be valid.

[MENELAUS]

To continue that digression for a minute, agreed...Football finance has got more complex recently but the scale of pay in the Premiership originally was in part due to individuals (not society) being prepared to pay to watch football and then how that money was distributed - who got the biggest chunk - the players? board? Owners? and merchandise sales....It's widely believed Ronaldo's move back to MU was more about shirt sales than goals.

If somebody can find a way of selling the rights to watching air combat on live TV and also start selling Goose/Maverik T-shirts at the Squadron store outside the station gates then the comparisons with the likes of Haaland might be valid.

Reminds me of a landaway to a display where the studes ( Observers naturally !) flogged off all our ERC’s and TAPS etc to a very eager German public. All done for our squadron charity but a) in theory confidential and b) they failed to keep any back, including the contents of my navbag. Fortunately the aircraft knew the way back to the Dutch coast and thank God for LondonMIL.

[Ohrly]

To continue that digression for a minute, agreed...Football finance has got more complex recently but the scale of pay in the Premiership originally was in part due to individuals (not society) being prepared to pay to watch football and then how that money was distributed - who got the biggest chunk - the players? board? Owners? and merchandise sales....It's widely believed Ronaldo's move back to MU was more about shirt sales than goals.

If somebody can find a way of selling the rights to watching air combat on live TV and also start selling Goose/Maverik T-shirts at the Squadron store outside the station gates then the comparisons with the likes of Haaland might be valid.

Instead of scrapping retired airframes they should be used in some kind of spectator sport, perhaps find a way of fitting paintball style guns to replace live ammunition. Make this all happen in a "dome" so aircraft cannot get too far away from the cameras, stream it live or sell highlights packages to terrestrial tv channels. It may be more successful if things actually explode, but I'm not sure how that would work with real pilots - perhaps convert everything into a drone flown from a bunker.

Spend lots of money on slick advertising, what could go wrong?

[Roland Pulfrew]

queep (google it if necessary)

BV

took a while till I got to the version I think you are alluding to. It came after:

queep noun

A rowing event, with two scullers and two sweepers per shell.
The sound a bird may make, similar to peep, chirp, cheep.
The sound a machine may make, similar to beep. See pocketa-queep

queep verb

To emit a "queep" sound.

But then got to: Annoying or senseless bureaucratic requirement. :D Every day is a school day.

[Baldeep Inminj]

I looked up ‘queep’ using an online dictionary and I got a very different definition indeed. Then I realized the last letter should have been a ‘p’ and not an ‘f’.

Must get new glasses.

[SNator]

50 years ago we had an excellent training system that had been honed via CFS for over 50 years. Then the Educators and the bean counters got their hands on it and it went downhill rapidly. We taught flexibly and without the US inflexible areas. Instructors came from many roles and imparted the corporate knowledge and a work hard play hard ethic. It is now a characterless sausage machine with no flexibility.

[Buster15]

- rarer than rocking horse ****

news.sky.com/story/uk-has-more-f-35-fast-jets-than-pilots-to-fly-them-ben-wallace-admits-12735825 (http://news.sky.com/story/uk-has-more-f-35-fast-jets-than-pilots-to-fly-them-ben-wallace-admits-12735825)

23 jets in the UK, more than 1 per pilot. Interesting that "the defence secretary described the situation as "quite a challenge", claiming that the deficit in pilots was also because the F-35 Lightning aircraft is new" What is his definition of new ?

Have China got more aircrew than we have?

(Mods, feel free to move to one of the other threads on F35 or training if you feel its more relevant)
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Contrast with the output of both pilots and navigators as they were termed in those days for the 3 nations from TTTE Cottesmore over 50 years ago.

If we can not generate enough pilots for just 23 jets then something is badly wrong.

[Asturias56]

What is really astounding is that its only 23 jets "In 2006 the United Kingdom was expected to acquire 138 F-35s," That's 16 years ago for heavens sake. We'd have needed to order Hurricanes in 1921 for first delivery just before Munich :(

[Timmy Tomkins]

Having been involved in things like this several times over the last 4 decades, both as an adviser and a practising departmental manager, I can assure you that any half decent industry or business would not have allowed itself to get into this situation in the first place! There would be strange things being done, like forecasting, model demand planning, attrition forecasting, output demand planning, scenario gaming and worst case scenario options. All of these things are alien to your average VSO, which explains why the RAF is in the current fix it is finds itself in, AGAIN!

It sacked 300 trainee aircrew not so long ago, it had retention schemes before that to keep people in, previous to that it had redundancy schemes to get rid of people...

It has massively reduced the value of being aircrew in terms of comparative salary, it has outsourced the responsibility for training output to a private consortium then dicked that consortium around in terms of required output. It has allowed the consortium to invest in tiny training fleets with no challenge or seeming interest.

On top of all this it has massively reduced annual and monthly flying hours. I spoke to 3 Typhoon aircrew recently whose main complaint was that they so rarely get to do what they joined up to do, fly! When I told them that back in my day I could expect a NATO minimum of 280 hours a year and would aim at 30 hours a month, and as a JP I could achieve that, albeit a bit more of a challenge for the more senior types, they were open mouthed. And on top of this they were also weary of constant detachments taking them away from home for lengthy periods, although they were happy with the flying rate on such, operational, detachments. And that is another key issue, whereas in my day we were a practising or rehearsing air force, today's RAF is a genuine war fighting operational force in which you will see action.

I realise that you are being a tad facetious in saying that it's not about the money, because it is, but surely it is also about absolutely crass decision making at the top by VSO's year after year and decade after decade.

Something Is rotten in the state of High Wycombe/Main Building.

To what extent are politicians responsible for this?