Qantas pilot sues the airline for sexual harassment

[ersa]

A Qantas (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/qantas/index.html) pilot who advocated for gender (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/gender-ideology/index.html) equality at the airline is now suing the company, claiming she was sexually harassed and discriminated against.

Davida Forshaw, who has been with Qantas for 23 years and is still employed as a first officer, alleges she was sexually harassed by some of her male colleagues during her career in a statement of claim she filed to the Federal Court on Wednesday.

In the court documents, Ms Forshaw alleges she was told to dye her hair and wear a push-up bra, received a poor performance review after rejecting sexual advances and fetched coffee for pilots.

She is seeking monetary compensation from Qantas and is also demanding the airline increase its number of female pilots by introducing a quota.

From Daily Mail.

[kingRB]

all gender discrimination claims should be dismissed - we can't define what a woman is anymore, and gender is fluid anyway.

[Capt Fathom]

Time to give the quota agenda a run again. :ugh:

Should we introduce quotas for every occupation where there are more males than females? Not sure why pilots think they are deserving of special attention.

I had many female friends and acquaintances in GA. I cannot recall any that didn’t end up in the airlines.

One way to increase the numbers into airlines is to encourage more into GA. Not the most exciting career path at present and financially crippling.

[Dookie on Drums]

Amazing that this still goes on.

I never will forget 4 years ago with a Jetstar phone interview when they heard my voice and said " Oh, we thought you were a woman" beep beep beep

[Icarus2001]

Bring on the quotas...

50% male cabin crew
50% male check in staff
50% female engineers
50% female ramp staff
50% plumbers
50% board members

Just see how long that lasts.

[Chris2303]

Bring on the quotas...

50% male cabin crew
50% male check in staff
50% female engineers
50% female ramp staff
50% plumbers
50% board members

Just see how long that lasts.

When I worked in the QF call centre in Auckland there would have been 70% females.

[Ollie Onion]

Tricky, so you ask a colleague out and he/she says no. When you then have them in the sim does that mean you can’t grade them badly for fear of perception that you are being unfair? It will be hard to link a poor grade to previous sexual advances.

[Australopithecus]

Yeah, I think I am going to remain schtum about my thoughts on this particular subject.

[AmarokGTI]

Like many people, I’m all for the right person doing the right job.

Quotas however are demonstrably flawed.

It starts as 50:50 Male:Female.

It then becomes Male:Female:Other

You then have to define Other in a way that keeps everyone in that category satisfied. Gender fluid? Non binary? (Other options likely considerable).

But let’s say 50:50 Male:Female keeps the vast majority of quota hunters happy.

We have to move on and realise that, hang on, after we have our perfect 50:50… we actually don’t. Because diversity is itself…diverse.

Back to the drawing board when realizing that there is not a 50:50 split of sexualities. Or at least a split that covers all available sexuality “options” and assigns ratios to those that are acceptable to all.

Then religions.
Then skin.
Then hair.
Then left handed / right handed.

Of course, if 50:50 male:female is hypothetically desired, that itself can LIMIT female pilots in the sense that on a particular intake of 10 pilots there could be 6 suitable females, and one has to miss out because of a quota.

Plenty of other issues with quotas. I await the abusive DMs.

[tossbag]

23 years an FO, that normal?

[Wizofoz]

all gender discrimination claims should be dismissed - we can't define what a woman is anymore, and gender is fluid anyway.
She didn't claim gender discrimination- any gender can be sexually harrassed.

Interesting that all the other comments are people triggered by the term "Quota"-guess they need a safe space.

[tossbag]

She didn't claim gender discrimination- any gender can be sexually harrassed.

All 32 genders can be sexually harassed??

[Wizofoz]

All 32 genders can be sexually harassed??
Yep. Though when something is "fluid" it doesn't actually have a number of variations. How many petrols did you put in your car this week?

[Wizofoz]

Bring on the quotas...

50% male cabin crew
50% male check in staff
50% female engineers
50% female ramp staff
50% plumbers
50% board members

Just see how long that lasts.
There was a time when only males could become Cabon Managers, and a hew and cry when it was opened up to women.

[deja vu]

23 years an FO, that normal?
No, its not normal. In days gone by it would have meant goodbye, there is the door, and with good reason. I'd be grateful actually to still have a job.

But could you imagine someone mocking international womens day, horrific.

[tossbag]

Yep. Though when something is "fluid" it doesn't actually have a number of variations.

I'm just hoping parliament can keep up with all the gender definitions. It is clearly the most pressing issue in our western values subset. How you could make such a flippant remark about something as trivial as petrol proves that point. I put blend 792.3 in the car on Friday, proof there are at least 792.3 genders.

[tossbag]

No, it's not normal. In days gone by it would have meant goodbye, there is the door, and with good reason.

I thought as much, an acquaintance got the flick years ago for having a couple of goes, he certainly wasn't there for 23 years.

[Wizofoz]

No, its not normal. In days gone by it would have meant goodbye, there is the door, and with good reason. I'd be grateful actually to still have a job.

But could you imagine someone mocking international womens day, horrific.
TOTAL BS. QF has had many permanent FOS. It has also had times when it has taken 20+ years to get a command. Friends who joined in 02 after Ansett are just now getting commands- often only IF they are willing to change base, and some will turn it down to stay senior in base.

The facy that the moment anything to do with gender comes up, the BS merchants start up shows she probably has a point.

[kingRB]

She didn't claim gender discrimination- any gender can be sexually harrassed.


A Qantas (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/qantas/index.html) pilot who advocated for gender (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/gender-ideology/index.html) equality at the airline is now suing the company, claiming she was sexually harassed and discriminated against.

what was she alleging was the basis of the discrimination then?

[deja vu]

TOTAL BS. QF has had many permanent FOS. It has also had times when it has taken 20+ years to get a command. Friends who joined in 02 after Ansett are just now getting commands- often only IF they are willing to change base, and some will turn it down to stay senior in base.

The facy that the moment anything to do with gender comes up, the BS merchants start up shows she probably has a point.

HUGE DIFFERENCE between PERMANENT FOs and those waiting 20 something years for a command vacancy to come up. Two totally different issues., but you missed that.

Obviously you know very little about the Airline industry outside of your bubble, banging on about QF Cabon( sic) managers and your mates from Ansett etc. In the real world they don't have permanent FOs, that was the point. No one mention gender but you.

[BuzzBox]

In the real world they don't have permanent FOs...

Define 'real world'. At the international airline where I previously worked (not in Oz), we had a number of 'permanent' FOs. In most cases they had already tried for a command at least once and were subsequently assessed as not suitable for further command training. They were still perfectly capable of fulfilling the role of FO.

[Wizofoz]

HUGE DIFFERENCE between PERMANENT FOs and those waiting 20 something years for a command vacancy to come up. Two totally different issues., but you missed that.

Obviously you know very little about the Airline industry outside of your bubble, banging on about QF Cabon( sic) managers and your mates from Ansett etc. In the real world they don't have permanent FOs, that was the point. No one mention gender but you.

I've worked for seven different airlines on three continents. From Englands biggest airline to the worlds biggest long Haul carrier. ALL had permanent FOs. Perhaps easyJet, Qantas and Emirates aren't in the "Real world"???

[Wizofoz]

what was she alleging was the basis of the discrimination then?

Sexual harrasement.

[Kennytheking]

https://www.travelweekly.com.au/article/wear-a-push-up-bra-veteran-qantas-pilot-sues-for-sexual-harassment/?fbclid=IwAR1j3zZM0rRR_WD7BeRf5EGET5e3Y1Y-y9ZDbDuyPMlw2p5dUFNiKdOMxyw

Probably not PC but I'm gonna call BS on the sexual harrasment.

[Wizofoz]

https://www.travelweekly.com.au/article/wear-a-push-up-bra-veteran-qantas-pilot-sues-for-sexual-harassment/?fbclid=IwAR1j3zZM0rRR_WD7BeRf5EGET5e3Y1Y-y9ZDbDuyPMlw2p5dUFNiKdOMxyw

Probably not PC but I'm gonna call BS on the sexual harrasment.
And right here we see why we are consider a group of old, white knuckle-dragging dinosaurs.

[PoppaJo]

Newscorp claim the events occurred 20-25 years ago.

ANYHOO, this is what she is after. Qantas will hire female suitable pilots as they become available. You cannot go and just hire for the sake of a quota. It is being made out like the place is falling apart due lack of female pilots. I can tell you, it is not. Sure it would be great to see an increase, but if they are not available they are not available. They are not appearing at recruitment drives, go back further in the food chain if you want to make an impact on female quotas in this industry, that is where it all starts.

She is asking the Federal Court to award her a pecuniary penalty and for Qantas to receive a monetary fine for the alleged harassment and discrimination she endured and urges the airline to increase its number of female pilots.

[Shark Patrol]

23 years an FO, that normal?

In Qantas it is!

Yes, you could take a minimum time upgrade (if that was your desire) and basically give away control of your life for the next 6-10 years. The other drawback was that if you went for a command on, say, the 737 and failed, you’re now a 737 FO for a couple of years (with the associated pay drop that that could entail). Nobody intends to fail when they attempt an upgrade but some do, and you’d be an idiot if you didn’t consider the financial consequences of not making the grade.

Qantas couldn’t really give a toss if somebody decides to forego promotion and preserve their lifestyle and financial stability. A few old former cadets who’ve never known anything but Qantas may grumble about “lifestylers”, but as long as all the required seats are occupied, management couldn’t care less. The Qantas contract is an unwieldy piece of crap, but at least it (currently) allows you to make your own decisions regarding attempts at promotion.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Interesting that www.pilotingmindset.com seems to have vanished.

[kingRB]

And right here we see why we are consider a group of old, white knuckle-dragging dinosaurs.


damn bro slow down. You're gonna break the internet if you keep squeezing any harder for that crumb of virtue

[Sprite]

Sexual harassment and discrimination have definitely happened at QF. As in most other workplaces. If you don’t believe it, you are probably part of the problem.

[twentyelevens]

Sexual harassment and discrimination have definitely happened at QF. As in most other workplaces. If you don’t believe it, you are probably part of the problem.

Believe!!!!!!
(Or you’re probs a sexual predator).

[Sprite]

Believe!!!!!!
(Or you’re probs a sexual predator).

Dumb response.

[Wizofoz]

HUGE DIFFERENCE between PERMANENT FOs and those waiting 20 something years for a command vacancy to come up. Two totally different issues., but you missed that.

Obviously you know very little about the Airline industry outside of your bubble, banging on about QF Cabon( sic) managers and your mates from Ansett etc. In the real world they don't have permanent FOs, that was the point. No one mention gender but you.

So, this has been pretty comprehensivley shown to be a bunch of old twaddle, and the fact that your almost instantaneous replies have suddenly dried up is duly noted.

[twentyelevens]

Dumb response.
Sensitive aren’t we. I just used your words buddy.
If using your words is dumb, It kinda proves the point I was making.
Have a great day, and try not to offend yourself by whatever else you happen to say.

[Wizofoz]

Sensitive aren’t we. I just used your words buddy.
If using your words is dumb, It kinda proves the point I was making.
Have a great day, and try not to offend yourself by whatever else you happen to say.
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. I know I've seen instances of harassement where I SHOULD have said and done more. Bystanders denying it happens is an integral weapon in the harassers arsenal

[twentyelevens]

All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. I know I've seen instances of harassement where I SHOULD have said and done more. Bystanders denying it happens is an integral weapon in the harassers arsenal

So a different version of:

Believe!!!!!!
(Or you’re probs a sexual predator)

You and Sprite should hook up and be miserable together.

You have a better day too ok? It’s not all that bad.

[Wizofoz]

damn bro slow down. You're gonna break the internet if you keep squeezing any harder for that crumb of virtue
You're late for your INCEL meeting.

[Sprite]

All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. I know I've seen instances of harassement where I SHOULD have said and done more. Bystanders denying it happens is an integral weapon in the harassers arsenal

So true…and I know that most of my colleagues feel the same way. Thank you to those who stand up against bullying and discrimination. Those who don’t recognise it are part of the problem…and they also don’t recognise they are dinosaurs.

[Wizofoz]

So a different version of:

Believe!!!!!!
(Or you’re probs a sexual predator)

You and Sprite should hook up and be miserable together.

You have a better day too ok? It’s not all that bad.
No, help where it's needed or you're a tacit facilitator of sexual preditors. You can misstate all you want, what has actually been said is right here on the screen. Are there no women in your life you'd like to see someone step up for if needed? Would you not consider it a problem if no-one did?

[What The]

Qantas HR investigated the claims and cleared all of the accused parties of any wrongdoing and has cleared them to return to their duties.

Guaranteed if QF HR could find anything untoward it would have been pursued with great gusto in my opinion.

Some good people have had their reputations dragged through the mud and have been exonerated. Sadly, people allowed that to happen and the chief amongst them has lost any sliver of respect that may have been left.

The person who made the allegations is not back flying.

Draw your own conclusions.

[StallsDeep]

I’m not an airline guy and not really in the know but isn’t it possible that this pilot had a command position on a smaller type then transitioned to FO on something larger? Plenty of scope for that in 23 years surely.

[Lookleft]

I’m not an airline guy and not really in the know but isn’t it possible that this pilot had a command position on a smaller type then transitioned to FO on something larger? Plenty of scope for that in 23 years surely.

Thats not how it works.

[mustafagander]

Any talk of quotas in long haul operations is fatally flawed.
I know many women who simply will not apply to fly long haul coz of their preferences not to leave their kids for up to 2 weeks at a time. For several that I know very well, family and close friends, it is inconceivable that they would leave their babies and toddlers for a fortnight on a regular basis. These women, usually very competent pilots, find a place in the regional world mostly. This means that they choose not to apply for long haul and quotas are irrelevant. What if, say, 20 pilots are to be recruited next month for a course and there are not 10 female applicants assessed suitable?

[LongTimeInCX]

The person who made the allegations is not back flying.

Draw your own conclusions.

Having read the lengthy description of her years of complaints, many of which were 20 odd years ago, it’s hard not to draw conclusions why as a long term First Officer, she is only now pushing the serious press to test button.
Seems previous complaints to HR and Pilot managers did not get the result she wanted. That she was written down or marked poorly, might perhaps actually be, oh shock and horror, because her check and training and assessment history has shown she is not particularly good at her job.
Adequate one assumes, but not good enough for command. Although in this new PC age, it wouldn’t surprise me if HR had been injecting strong suggestions that she be given an easy ride to command. I put nothing past the 2 tailed dog (HR & Accounting) that currently seems to have too much influence in meddling with pilot recruitment, training and upgrades.
Consequently, she has chosen to effectively use the gender discrimination aspect, rather than facing up to her own limitations and in the process sully the reputation of the QF training and checking system, and complain about having to make the coffee.


I have flown with many women over decades. Both good and bad. I would not dispute that in years gone by, women seemed to have to work harder to get a foothold in the predominantly male pilot industry. A common comment by women pilots who hear of this current nonsense, is that it can tar the rest of them with the same brush. They would rather people got their respective big girl or boy pants on, and got on with the job. If they are not up to the task, then leave. Don’t blame others as your excuse for poor performance and being an antagonistic individual who looks for the slightest opportunity to take offence.

On one of my first conversion flight debriefs, I was asked to make the coffee, did I take offence that the Capt was a Brit, and I was picked on to be the char wallah because I was a colonial? No, it was just a damn coffee ffs!

[PoppaJo]

I’m not an airline guy and not really in the know but isn’t it possible that this pilot had a command position on a smaller type then transitioned to FO on something larger? Plenty of scope for that in 23 years surely.
The article has the pilot as a widebody FO back in the 90s.

[Capt Fathom]

The article also says she’s been with Qantas for 23 years. Therefore joined in 1999… as a Second Officer.

[Sprite]

Imagine you are told you only have the job because you have a penis. Despite you having aced all the exams, at your first attempt…but every person you fly with (females, just to change it up) says you’re just there because of your gender.

No matter what you learn,or how well you know the books, there’s a minority of morons who say you’re just there because of your gender.

Some people won’t have any empathy or understanding, but they’re the ones who also didn’t get the career they dreamed of … and never will.

[kingRB]

You're late for your INCEL meeting.

yeah, all that simping and white knighting must have the women absolutely gushing for you. I bet they can't wait to hear more cringey examples about how you defended their honour from internet misogynists and oppression.

[olster]

Seen it all before. Below average first officer, in this case female, finds many reasons for not attaining command status except looking inward, taking ownership and responsibility. Easy way out; everyone else’s fault. Pick a reason, oh it must be because I’m female and those nasty training captains are misogynistic and prejudiced. Throw sexual harassment into the mix and voila all hell breaks lose. No offence but highly unlikely I would have thought and in this case the accused have been exonerated. I have mentored a female pilot in exactly this position and my advice was to prepare well for training events, not get into childish spats with captains, read the OM A, FCOM, QRH etc, don’t look for conspiracy around every corner, relax and enjoy your flying. Fell on deaf ears naturally. Grievance and victimhood being the preferred option and ending in tears. It doesn’t have to be a disgruntled lady of course, other genders and excuses are available. Major caveat that genuine bullying and harassment is unacceptable but unlikely in the modern era and certainly and correctly not tolerated.

[Stabmotion]

I’ve never seen a female baggage loader. They all work behind a desk.

I want an airport to set quotas for every single role.

[Australopithecus]

Venturing a public opinion about a person with a particular barrow to push and a litigious nature may not be a sound strategy.

In general I am unsurprised to learn of discrimination or harassment in the past. It was common everywhere, just like smoking and drink driving. It still happens obviously, but I hope much less, and I hope that the perpetrators get corrected.

On quotas: I would hate to be considered a token hire by anyone. I don’t like flying with people who have to constantly prove how good they are to counter some real or imagined bias.

Finally: Qantas HR took a long time with that case, and the pilots involved were treated poorly. One obvious result of that is that it may be expensive to critique the performance of a small subset of a subset of the pilot group lest the gender card gets played and you end up forever tainted after being probed, hard, for unsound ideology.

[Wizofoz]

On quotas: I would hate to be considered a token hire by anyone. I don’t like flying with people who have to constantly prove how good they are to counter some real or imagined bias.



It's a fine line and, like everythning, not clear cut.

In a perfect world, if less of a certain group seek employment, or indeed are less SUITABLE for a particular type of employment, no-one should be suprised or upset of they are under-represented.

Where it get's tricky is WHY are they underrepresented? If part of it is not because of the capabilities or aspirations of the group involved, but in the TREATMENT of that group by others, some steps towards reparation is not only justified, it is beneficial.

I read a study which showed that something like 40% of the growth in western ecconomies in the last half century was due to the increased participation of groups previously marginalised. The number of people who COULD have been major contributors to society but were instead pushing a broom because they were black, or baking cookies because they wewe female, meant we ALL missed out on the benefits of capable people fulfilling their potential.

In recent history, Women weren't PERMITTED to be airline pilots. So, of course, airline flying was exclusivley male. Simply removing that prohibition doesn't instantly fix the problem, as now women had to enter an exclusivley male domain, and that in itself is a huge disincentive.

[Wizofoz]

I’ve never seen a female baggage loader. They all work behind a desk.

I want an airport to set quotas for every single role.

I was until recently a night-freight pilot and there were women working the ramp along side the men. But there are REASONS fewer woman choose to be bag slingers, due to the fact women on average are less physically strong. What biological reasons are you claiming keep women from being pilots?

[Armchairflyer]

I was until recently a night-freight pilot and there were women working the ramp along side the men. But there are REASONS fewer woman choose to be bag slingers, due to the fact women on average are less physically strong. What biological reasons are you claiming keep women from being pilots?Apologies for butting in, but there is considerable evidence that handling machinery (or more generally: dealing with objects or systems) is on average less appealing to women compared to men, and that this is not just a result of socialization. This is not a matter of suitability (there is at least as much evidence that gender differences in pertinent skills are negligible to non-existent), but simply of interest.

[Eclan]

Hang on, this has nothing to do with quotas. It is about being able to do your job as a FCM and not be treated like a piece of sh!t.

Any pilot should be able to go to work and not wonder how much crap they are going to get from the FCM or in the crew room.
That brings a new level of ignorance to these forums. Congratulations, you are officially part of the problem facing the western world. Thanks to media coverage this case of as-yet unsubstantiated allegations is already going the way of the infamous rape trial recently abandoned with trial by media by people who don't have a clue what really happened. It's enough that other pilots have been stood down pending investigation. Regardless of the outcome they will always be tarred.

Sadly this topic is already bringing out the usual virtue signaling-big-mouths who hope for the worst to give them a soapbox to stand on and gather attention.

(I used plural terms above but really it's just the one guy.)

Hiring people due to sex instead of more realistic and practical form of qualification - interesting concept........ they could change the airline name to Quotas.

[Wizofoz]

Apologies for butting in, but there is considerable evidence that handling machinery (or more generally: dealing with objects or systems) is on average less appealing to women compared to men, and that this is not just a result of socialization. This is not a matter of suitability (there is at least as much evidence that gender differences in pertinent skills are negligible to non-existent), but simply of interest.

Thanks for the input, and that's probably so, but WHY is there a difference in interest? If, as you say, there is little difference in ability, it means people capl\able of doing certain tasks don't seek to do so because something has meant they don't want to. Surely that is at least in part due to socialisation?

If it were the case that "it all evens out" and societal roles get evenly split, that would br fine- but the fact that "female" roles almost always end up being lower paid and subservient to "Male roles" (think Doctor-nurse, Pilot-FA, Lawer-legal secretary) mean this isn't so.

Surley part of "wanting to" would nclude seeing others like you DOING the roles? And thus seeking to increase participation is a step in the right direction?

[C441]

The article also says she’s been with Qantas for 23 years. Therefore joined in 1999… as a Second Officer.
She was an S/O on the 744 in 2007 when I last flew with her. I'm not sure if she'd sought or commenced F/O training before that.

[Clare Prop]

As a female who has been a professional pilot for 35 years this whole quota thing really does undermine the rest of us who have just got on with it. and if someone has made an inappropriate remark just given back as good as we get and laughed it off. It's usually just dumb banter, not malicious.

However calling someone a "token" is very malicious and only encouraged by the very small minority of female pilots who have an axe to grind.

The reason there are less female than male pilots is simple. Not as many women as men are interested enough in flying. That's it! The only barriers are money and the required competencies. If someone isn't interested enough or lacks the required skills they will not achieve the required competencies.

[the pilot] demands she receives a pecuniary penalty, a monetary fine collected by the civil court, for the alleged harassment and discrimination she underwent while working at the airline. She has also ordered that Qantas establish a quota system to increase the percentage of female pilots it employs.
Did she really ORDER this or is it just bad journalism?

[tossbag]

Sadly this topic is already bringing out the usual virtue signaling-big-mouths who hope for the worst to give them a soapbox to stand on and gather attention.

(I used plural terms above but really it's just the one guy.)

That's funny! This bloke is the first to jump on board these causes, it's impossible that he knows anything about this case yet 'there he goes' it's repetitive and boring.

[Eclan]

As a female who has been a professional pilot for 35 years this whole quota thing really does undermine the rest of us who have just got on with it. and if someone has made an inappropriate remark just given back as good as we get and laughed it off. It's usually just dumb banter, not malicious.

However calling someone a "token" is very malicious and only encouraged by the very small minority of female pilots who have an axe to grind.

The reason there are less female than male pilots is simple. Not as many women as men are interested enough in flying. That's it! The only barriers are money and the required competencies. If someone isn't interested enough or lacks the required skills they will not achieve the required competencies.


Did she really ORDER this or is it just bad journalism?
Excellent post, Clare. Thank you! What you said is exactly what I saw the vast majority of the time I've been flying, but it doesn't sell newspapers. I think everyone else can calm down now.

[Wizofoz]

yet 'there he goes' it's repetitive and boring.

As is your jumping on anything I say.

[onezeroonethree]

She didn't claim gender discrimination- any gender can be sexually harrassed.

Interesting that all the other comments are people triggered by the term "Quota"-guess they need a safe space.

You see no problem with quotas?

When 5%-6% of pilots are female and they decide to hire 50/50 male/female? Yeah, that's really merit based. Just what we need. More people who can't hack the fact they arent command standard.

As someone said earlier, why the quotas with pilots?

Where's my 50/50 cabin crew?
Wheres the female bag loaders?
Where's 50/50 ground crew?
Where's the female engineers?

Seems like you only want more women in the more "prestigious" jobs.

[tossbag]

As is your jumping on anything I say.

Could you do an audit on that for me please?

[onezeroonethree]

But there are REASONS fewer woman choose to be bag slingers, due to the fact women on average are less physically strong.

You can't make comments like that in 2022. All the 60 genders are equal.

I've written you up to my manager.

Expect a phone call soon.

[tossbag]

And 50% bricklayers please.

[onezeroonethree]

If it were the case that "it all evens out" and societal roles get evenly split, that would br fine- but the fact that "female" roles almost always end up being lower paid and subservient to "Male roles" (think Doctor-nurse, Pilot-FA, Lawer-legal secretary) mean this isn't so.

Are you implying a nurse should earn the same as a doctor? FA same as a pilot? Secretary the same as a lawyer?

[Wizofoz]

Are you implying a nurse should earn the same as a doctor? FA same as a pilot? Secretary the same as a lawyer?

No. But there SHOULD be no reason nurses are predominently women or pilots predominently men.

[Chronic Snoozer]

No. But there SHOULD be no reason nurses are predominently women or pilots predominently men.

Yes there is. Choice.

Left to decide for themselves, men and women will display a predilection for some professions over others.

[fdr]

Interesting thread. The resistance against female pilots in both the military and airlines demeans us all as a profession. Back in the 80's, we were able to push through the resistance, and surprise, the general standard of the girls that entered the ranks was of a general standard, like the boys. The treatment of them wasn't equal, it was more often filled with resentment, which I found difficult to comprehend. Of all professions, why would sitting on your backside be considered to be gender dependent? Hanna Reich, Nancy Bird Walton, etc, surprisingly, female, and competent. Nadia of NTPS engineering fame, female, and able to stand tall against all she surveyed over her boots on her desk post flight. My mother, took up flying at 40, ferried aircraft around the world, and didn't make a big thing out of it. What is not reasonable is to harassed when conducting a professional duty, and certainly when doing something that purportedly the rest of us do as well out of enthusiasm and love of flying. Why is that either restricted to a gender, or something that should be considered with resentment?

Quota's have a place to ensure the restoration of balance to an imbalance that may occur naturally or through historical bias. Aviation has that bias, and when we stop the B/S of the bias there would be no need for the concept of quotas.

I have yet to fly with a pilot that was incompetent and was so due to a quota. I have flown with many incompetent pilots, and have had the frustration of attempting to ameliorate that level of incompetence. The two cases that I have dismally failed to mitigate were one male, and one female, and their incompetence was of a nature that had nothing at all to do with their standing or sitting to relieve themselves. They were not chosen for the gender or nationality, and they were not terminated for gender or nationality; they were terminated after some 200 hrs of concentrated flight time, they could not fly an ILS or maintain a speed anywhere near V2+10 for a departure, yet held CLP/ME/IR qualifications issues to a standard that beggars belief.

Harassment has no place, in the cockpit, home, office, anywhere. Harassment results in the victim being victimised, every single time. Who the victim is occasionally a surprise, The more that we divide the genders the greater the potential for harassment to be a factor, and equally the greater the threat of weaponising of allegations. The statistics favour the allegations, however, nothing can be assumed in relationships, except between a human and a dog. Dogs are easy, dogs are loyal, dogs don't need quotas, they love you anyway, Dogs dote on every word of wisdom you deign to espouse, dogs don't make those that are trying to maintain the last bastion of their gender worry about their seat at the table. Occasionally dogs do better radio work than I do, and can fly better on occasions. My dog used to fly on patrols with me, and she spent all of her time down at the galley eyeballing the steaks. (Engineers were responsible for her shape approximating mine in her later years). My dog went flying in the airforce before the airforce condescended to have it's first female pilot.

Time as an FO in Qantas does not reflect any competency issue in itself, only the FT-9s or whatever are being used there do so.

[tossbag]

I don't give a **** how many women pilots there are at qantas.
I don't give a **** how many they'll have in future.
When I get on an aircraft, I don't go 'look, a female pilot', it's normal stuff and it's normalising to the number of women who want to do it.
You're not the only gender being bullied and harassed, yeah, believe it or not some fellas cop it royal, for different reasons of course.
What is interesting about this case is whether the allegations are real, considering that it's been investigated and dismissed. This is real stuff, career and reputation destroying at worst, limiting is a 'good' outcome.
And just like the media destroying the chance of a fair trial in Canberra and the SJW's spewing hate, the irony is that he'll probably walk, guilty on not, because it is now impossible to get a fair trial.

[Stabmotion]

I was until recently a night-freight pilot and there were women working the ramp along side the men. But there are REASONS fewer woman choose to be bag slingers, due to the fact women on average are less physically strong. What biological reasons are you claiming keep women from being pilots?

None. If they are good are welcome. I’m surrounded by young apprentices or female pilots. They are way below the average and were hired to comply with quotas and to look good under public opinion. May be that’s why their performance is so bad? There is one that is not even allowed to land the plane.

Stop quotas, be fair and the labour market will self regulate. On my previous comment I was remarking the fact that they always target the most attractive roles by salary or status. They don’t claim quotas to the less attractive ones like baggage loader.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

What is interesting about this case is whether the allegations are real, considering that it's been investigated and dismissed.

I don’t believe it’s the same set of allegations. What’s been investigated and dismissed was recent. This is the follow-on to that unsuccessful action, and seems to be based on historical issues. One might question both the motive and timing, but then that’s not really a matter for this forum.

[Australopithecus]

52 years ago when I signed up for my first flying lesson (on a different continent) it was with a female. And to her credit she still is. It was never even a blip for either of us despite teenage hormones, etc) I don’t get the big mystique about female pilots, any more than I do about female doctors or dentists (both of which I have, happily). My female accountant on the other hand…no cheating. Where’s the fun in that?

in my previous life I was a T &C guy. My boss found it amusing to give me the female pilots who fell into three groups: 97% fleet standard, 2% no bueno and 1% NASA material. I still corespondent with a couple of that cohort and recall fondly the time we spent together, both during training and later on the line. Sex never came into it*, nor did gender. We just got the job done the best way we knew how given our primitive understanding at the time. I wish it was still that uncomplicated.

*carrier wave only, no modulation.

on edit…that 2% no bueno? Same as the guys.

[tossbag]

I don’t believe it’s the same set of allegations. What’s been investigated and dismissed was recent. This is the follow-on to that unsuccessful action, and seems to be based on historical issues. One might question both the motive and timing, but then that’s not really a matter for this forum.

Thanks

In that case, why weren't all of the allegations made in one claim? Something stinks.

[Ascend Charlie]

Where are all the female Formula 1 drivers? Moto GP riders?

There is one female garbage truck driver here in Noosa. You are already picturing her, but change your picture, she is a platinum blonde doll.

[First_Principal]

Just to provide a little balance; at a ground course some years ago I was introduced to a British man who'd flown many years for an airline in the UK. He had something like 9000 or 12000 hours (I don't quite recall the exact number, however it was in that region), but had been an FO for all that, and other than his initial training had no PIC time.

He was a pleasant man whom I'd got to know, but during the course (on a type he had thousands of hours on) I was surprised to find him struggling with some things, and subsequently I don't believe he flew the 'plane this course was for.

Although, as with the subject of this thread, this is just a sample of one I suggest that he'd never held command for good reason. With regard to Ms Forshaw it's always possible that if she has wanted to upgrade, she may not have managed this for legitimate performance or other 'luck of the draw' reasons that are not gender related.

So, if lack of advancement forms part of her complaint (and I'd want to see the complaint verbatim, secondhand from a news article can lead to misinterpretation) I do hope the investigation is as dispassionate as possible on this matter, and is preferably conducted separate to any harassment matter. I should think that mixing the two would make it very difficult to differentiate where needed.

FP.

[finestkind]

The subject of quotas and female employment seems to be a never-ending cycle of discussion. I do not believe anyone is pointing out that females cannot do what males are doing. What is argumentative is the quota system. It is a vicious cycle. a) women are underrepresented in this field of careers. b) women do not wish to do this job or see this job as unattractive (due to many reasons from male domination to no women in that career) c) to attract more women to this area they need role models. d) we need to either introduce women or have more women in the area. e) introduce quotas so more women are employed in these areas allowing for role models that will then attract more women.
The downfall of this is when there is a lowering of standards to allow more women into this field due to not having enough applicants that meet the basic standard, with the excuse that once there are enough women in this field more will be attracted eventually raising the standard. Very obvious than that some women in this area, that are below the required standard, cause a negative perception on all women. Yes, there are men that have slipped through that should not have done so. As pointed out by Jordan Peterson, when a large company is forced to hire the same number of female engineers, quotas, as males there will be a lowering of standard's based purely on statistics. Big company has to hire 100 engineers. There are 1000 male applicants and 100 female applicants. Purely on statistics there is 10% of engineers (irrelevant of gender) that only got their degree because they were upright and breathing. Another 10% that will be extraordinary. 20% that are below average, 20% above average, with the remaining average. Given that you have to hire 50 females at best you may get 10 extraordinary ones, 20 above average, and 20 below average. At best for males, you may get 50 extraordinary ones. This does not help the view of women as engineers but if more women were engineers than......... and the cycle starts.

[Icarus2001]

First principles, why does half of any profession need to be a particular gender? There is no reason.

Any person of either gender can graviatate to a role that they desire and are suited for.

That is already true. The fact that women choose not to rush into pilot jobs is not a problem to be fixed.

[dr dre]

This isn’t a story about quotas. No quotas have been used, and this was confirmed by someone who would know here (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/584827-qantas-recruitment-32.html#post9702574).

[Chronic Snoozer]

The pilot has called for QANTAS to instigate a quota system as part of the filing in the Federal Court according to The Australian. Federal Court claim (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/the-oz/news/go-blonde-and-wear-a-push-up-bra-pilot-sues-qantas/news-story/a547bd8c9e270c4c26c5c5c6e3589c21) (paywall link)

By way of compensation, Forshaw demands she receives a pecuniary penalty, a monetary fine collected by the civil court, for the alleged harassment and discrimination she underwent while working at the airline. She has also ordered that Qantas establish a quota system to increase the percentage of female pilots it employs.

So the story is a little bit about quotas.

if-women-were-meant-to-fly-the-sky-would-be-pink (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/the-oz/news/if-women-were-meant-to-fly-the-sky-would-be-pink/news-story/4d141a720a3481d54151ec95178d2107) (also paywall link)

[dr dre]

I don’t think the Federal Court could enforce a quota without falling foul of the Anti Discrimination Act, unless legislation was changed. It doesn’t appear the court has ever mandated a quota on an Australian company before.

[Clare Prop]

Plenty of female aviation role models past and present. Tokens are not required.
I could list them but there's no need.
The people pushing the "role model" idea remind me of the Tracy Curtis Taylor debacle.

My heroes are Amy Johnson and Neil Armstrong, not because of gender but because they achieved what at the time seemed impossible.

I've read the "the sky would be pink" article, I worked with Louise many years ago, she is certainly one to stand up for herself and as a member of AFAP I'm very happy to have her stand up for me. But that has nothing to do with our gender.

While silly comments about making coffee are annoying, I will add here my only real gender based issue, 30 years ago when a passenger on a charter decided at 9500 feet to get his dick out and have a wank right there in the right hand seat because he "couldn't take his eyes off my legs". After landing I told the boss I was not going to fly with him again and I was sacked on the spot, because "he is our best customer and he can do what he wants". I'm just glad it didn't turn violent.

[Eclan]

The pilot has called for QANTAS to instigate a quota system as part of the filing in the Federal Court according to The Australian. Federal Court claim (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/the-oz/news/go-blonde-and-wear-a-push-up-bra-pilot-sues-qantas/news-story/a547bd8c9e270c4c26c5c5c6e3589c21) (paywall link)

So the story is a little bit about quotas.

if-women-were-meant-to-fly-the-sky-would-be-pink (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/the-oz/news/if-women-were-meant-to-fly-the-sky-would-be-pink/news-story/4d141a720a3481d54151ec95178d2107) (also paywall link)
Sexism as a social issue falls into the Left camp when taken up. Discriminatory quotas (or other practices) are perfectly acceptable if they favour the left agenda which quota hiring does.

The Oz article linked to above fails to mention that according to their own chart of Global Participation Rates of Female Pilots, Australia is 1.7% higher than the world average; proportionally, nearly a third higher than average. From the illogical but sensationalist point of view which seems to be the only view that matters, that must mean our respect for women in Australia is a third better than the world average. We are leaders! What's she complaining about?

"We need to get the next generation (of women) thinking about being a pilot as a career.... and driving young women in the direction that boys get driven in."

This is a particularly disturbing outlook. I'm amazed the speaker holds the said-position. The next election might be very interesting.

[finestkind]

First principles, why does half of any profession need to be a particular gender? There is no reason.

Any person of either gender can graviatate to a role that they desire and are suited for.

That is already true. The fact that women choose not to rush into pilot jobs is not a problem to be fixed.

Tend to disagree. How can you gravitate to something that you are unaware of, have little access too, the minority that are there are belittled, treated differently, glass ceiling etc, because of your gender. We are a product of our environment. Because of that how can you consider something that is not in your sphere (therefore even consider suited for), and we are not talking now, inroads have been made, but 20+ years ago it was a very different story. By restricting the ability to utilise the whole work force we are restricting the success, profitability, professionalism of that work force. Argumentatively not an issue if you can fill all positions with what you have which is what happened years ago.

"The fact that women choose not to rush........" Why is that not a problem to be fixed? There are excellent female pilots out there from a very small base. Why would you not want more? Having done a few career expo's and asking the females about becoming a pilot the resounding response is no. Why, very simple it has not been proposed, thought of because "we are a product of our environment". This is also applicable to males. Not every single male has thought about being a pilot (or a multitude of other careers) because of their background.

[Icarus2001]

How can you gravitate to something that you are unaware of?Yes clearly schoolgirls are unaware that there are female pilots.

glass ceiling There is no glass ceiling, it is a social construction for the purpose of rhetoric. We have had women chief pilots, women CEOs, a female prime minister, a female premier in every state and various ministers in both sides of politics. So where is the ceiling that is allegedly preventing this? The boss of our second biggest airline is a woman for goodness sake.

The often heard statement “if you cannot see it you cannot be it” is rubbish. Otherwise you would never have the FIRST black president, the first female Prime Minister etc.


"The fact that women choose not to rush........" Why is that not a problem to be fixed? There Because so long as women have the same opportunity to become a pilot as a man, which they do, then the lack of equal numbers is meaningless. Why are you not arguing for equal engineers or more male cabin crew?

Women have less interest in the job of pilot. Do some research about male versus female brains at birth and in the first two years of life. We are programmed by evolution to be attracted to different “things”. This is not to say women and men are not “equal” except men struggle to gestate a foetus and as a result we expect the ladies to do that. They mostly seem to be drawn to that role, odd that.

[Global Aviator]

Surprised no one has picked up on the latest NAPLAN girls out perform boys.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new-south-wales-education/naplan-2022-results-girls-outperform-boys-in-every-subject/news-story/2fedda911f84607c72a83b2dce0750bf?amp&nk=70b7b299e9c7560e6a6c1b269b0a3567-1667356961

[dr dre]

Women have less interest in the job of pilot. Do some research about male versus female brains at birth and in the first two years of life. We are programmed by evolution to be attracted to different “things”.

That’s an interesting point as although females are attracted to different “things” are the “things” that make a good pilot now things women may have biological advantages in?

It’s not the 1930s anymore, the need for physical upper body strength to wrestle the non fly by wire controls of a rough as guts 30s contraption around the sky isn’t needed anymore. More emphasis in the modern multi crew flight deck is placed on “soft” skills like communication, conflict avoidance, team building, empathy, risk mitigation, consideration for alternate opinion, suppression of ego etc.

These are areas in which women may (not saying it’s a definite) have an advantage in. However it may not be adequately communicated to the public that the innate requirements of a pilot have changed, they may still think it’s primarily the domain of those who are to manually fight the controls of the plane like it’s the Southern Cross traversing the ocean in 1928.

[Icarus2001]

I think that is absolutely true Dr. However it does not seem to motivate women to join the profession

[dr dre]

I think that is absolutely true Dr. However it does not seem to motivate women to join the profession

It has changed but does the public knows it’s changed in their general consciousness? And to me these elements go far beyond gender.

I’ve been told that pilots in general are physically strong and good at sports (def not me), they all like adventure and extreme sports (def not me) and they all have big egos and are “alpha male” personalities (certainly not me). Now if I followed that popular opinion I’d be in a different profession.

So public consciousness of the makes a good pilot may need to change beyond just a point of gender. Who knows if potentially good male pilots who never fell into the above categories have been dissuaded from the profession? And some who were unsuited encouraged to take it up?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

the need for physical upper body strength to wrestle the non fly by wire controls of a rough as guts 30s contraption around the sky isn’t needed anymore

You’re unaware that the B737 remains in widespread use here?

[dr dre]

You’re unaware that the B737 remains in widespread use here?

Hydraulically assisted controls. You don’t need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to fly one

[Chronic Snoozer]

These are areas in which women may (not saying it’s a definite) have an advantage in. However it may not be adequately communicated to the public that the innate requirements of a pilot have changed, they may still think it’s primarily the domain of those who are to manually fight the controls of the plane like it’s the Southern Cross traversing the ocean in 1928.

Everybody knows that airline pilots are glorified bus drivers. This same conversation could be had for the myriad other jobs which tend to attract more males than females. Like merchant seaman. As for communicating to the public, jump on youTube - everything you need to know is there. If you surveyed who buys and plays Microsoft Flight Sim. you might get an indication of who is interested in what.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Hydraulically assisted controls. You don’t need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to fly one

No, but it is a non-FBW, rough as guts 30s contraption. ;)

[Clare Prop]

The only barriers to ANYONE becoming a pilot, or anything else in this country are money and competency.
Competency will follow a normal distribution.
Which bring on the topic of, should certain flying scholarships be available only to women? (I say no, that is discrimination).

As an aside I am currently doing further study on a subject I previously qualified in 35 years ago, agricultural science, when there were ten guys to every girl. Now there are about 20 girls to every guy. Just an example of how things have changed and "it's a man's job" is not only illegal but very old fashioned to say.

[SRM]

Many years ago a friend of mine was a 727 F/O, she confided in me she was being sexually harassed by a certain FEO, she claimed every time she sat in her seat he would put his hand on the seat.

I was being checked by this person during an Adelaide overnight and after a couple of beers I fronted him with the accusations, which did not go over well.
The following day was very unpleasant and the debrief ended up in a screaming match.

I was not going to cop what he wrote me up for as I was operating IAW all SOPs.
After this unfortunate episode I was called up by the then FEO manager and asked to explain.

During the meeting with the FEO manager I should have told him what actually occurred but didn’t.

He scheduled a check by another Check F/E a short time later without any issues.

Just goes to show that this sort of **** did go on without any accountability.

Different these days.

IF anybody sexually harassed any of my children or grandchildren be warned!

[finestkind]

Yes clearly schoolgirls are unaware that there are female pilots.

Admittedly life is much more aware nowadays than my time. There were 4 or 5 occupations that were available in the country when I was growing up and without the benefit of such things as the internet very few of my peers left the boundaries of the hometown. Simply put schoolgirls are unaware of all the career options available to them. In saying that they are significantly more aware than 50 years ago.

There is no glass ceiling, it is a social construction for the purpose of rhetoric. We have had women chief pilots, women CEOs, a female prime minister, a female premier in every state and various ministers in both sides of politics. So where is the ceiling that is allegedly preventing this? The boss of our second biggest airline is a woman for goodness sake.

Again we are talking about times in the past which becomes applicable to seeing a career as attractive when you have a number of gender peers in that profession. We had a Queen and a female PM, "for goodness sake".

The often heard statement “if you cannot see it you cannot be it” is rubbish. Otherwise you would never have the FIRST black president, the first female Prime Minister etc.

Right, so by some magical means you decide to become something that you have never heard of. So, no black politicians over the years prior to the FIRST black president, no females in politics prior to the first female PM?

Because so long as women have the same opportunity to become a pilot as a man, which they do, then the lack of equal numbers is meaningless. Why are you not arguing for equal engineers or more male cabin crew?

Do they have equal opportunity? A few years back no. And now, no as they have more than equal opportunity but what is lacking is the desire for those careers due to being a product of our environment which sub consciously imprints on them.



Women have less interest in the job of pilot. Do some research about male versus female brains at birth and in the first two years of life. We are programmed by evolution to be attracted to different “things”. This is not to say women and men are not “equal” except men struggle to gestate a foetus and as a result we expect the ladies to do that. They mostly seem to be drawn to that role, odd that.

Not at all odd being products of our environment. Why do women have less interest in the job as a pilot? Does not evolution mean evolving, you know changing. It was proven that when genders were given equal opportunities (Sweden?) that they reverted back to established roles, Not surprising given that evolution does not occur in a generation or two. Odd that? I am not a fan of quotas as they generally require a change of standards to achieve numbers.

[Icarus2001]

It was proven that when genders were given equal opportunities (Sweden?) that they reverted back to established roles

Are genders not given equal opportunity in Australia?

[601]

More emphasis in the modern multi crew flight deck is placed on “soft” skills like communication, conflict avoidance, team building, empathy, risk mitigation, consideration for alternate opinion, suppression of ego etc.
So no requirement for the old skill of flying. No wonder we have aircraft that crash because basic flying skills are missing.
A colleague related on a flight in Europe. As it was a crystal clear day he did a visual circuit and landing. He showed exceptional skills by hand flying. The young FO asked after the uneventful landing "How did you do that"

Back for the thread, how many male Chief Pilots ( I am talking GA here) had advances made to them by the opposite gender who were looking for their first job or a step up the ladder?

[Propstop]

From an engineering perspective I have found female pilots to be very knowledgable and professional.
When writing up a defect they have noted what happened, what they did and what then happened. This enabled me to quickly identify the problem.
I have had more than one male pilot come in with scant info for me, but tell me the FCU is buggered and needs changing. One can guess the response.
It is also great to see more females doing apprenticeships. They apply themselves to learning as they are genuinely interested and are high achievers. Never, when explaining something they have said to me “I know”

[Willie Nelson]

Plenty of female aviation role models past and present. Tokens are not required.
I could list them but there's no need.
The people pushing the "role model" idea remind me of the Tracy Curtis Taylor debacle.

My heroes are Amy Johnson and Neil Armstrong, not because of gender but because they achieved what at the time seemed impossible.

I've read the "the sky would be pink" article, I worked with Louise many years ago, she is certainly one to stand up for herself and as a member of AFAP I'm very happy to have her stand up for me. But that has nothing to do with our gender.

While silly comments about making coffee are annoying, I will add here my only real gender based issue, 30 years ago when a passenger on a charter decided at 9500 feet to get his dick out and have a wank right there in the right hand seat because he "couldn't take his eyes off my legs". After landing I told the boss I was not going to fly with him again and I was sacked on the spot, because "he is our best customer and he can do what he wants". I'm just glad it didn't turn violent.

Wow, That’s amazing!

[megan]

should certain flying scholarships be available only to women? (I say no, that is discrimination)The Ninety Nines is a flying organisation for female aviators and they offer various degrees of financial help to their members, and why shouldn't they? Our daughter retired from flying a Titan on single pilot RPT/Charter with about 2,500 total because of children and received a grant from the 99ers in later years towards maintaining currency. Now a manager of safety for a major NT airline, proud parents, and yes we paid for her CPL, instrument and ATPL subjects.

https://www.ninety-nines.org/resources.htm

Those giving the girls flak need to wake up, to call them Neanderthals is to give Neanderthals a bad name, Deb Wardley fought this battle decades ago.

[twentyelevens]

The Ninety Nines is a flying organisation for female aviators and they offer various degrees of financial help to their members, and why shouldn't they? Our daughter retired from flying a Titan on single pilot RPT/Charter with about 2,500 total because of children and received a grant from the 99ers in later years towards maintaining currency. Now a manager of safety for a major NT airline, proud parents, and yes we paid for her CPL, instrument and ATPL subjects.

https://www.ninety-nines.org/resources.htm

Those giving the girls flak need to wake up, to call them Neanderthals is to give Neanderthals a bad name, Deb Wardley fought this battle decades ago.

I’ve no idea what you’re trying to achieve with your post. Who here has given a girl(s) flak? Nobody. Yet here you are straight out of the gate with the ad hominems and a chip on your shoulder.

Good for your daughter. It’s great she has made choices that suit her and her family hey, just like the rest of us. Bet she doesn’t cry victim at every opportunity.

[Ushuaia]

Gawd. Now the FAAA is calling for pilot quotas, according to The Aus:

“The Flight Attendants’ Association of Australia has called for Australia’s major airlines to implement gender quotas for pilots, as “more women up the front would have a positive benefit for cabin crew” and help squash the “trolley dolly” stereotype amongst cabin crew.

“Having women (pilots) in authority diminishes gender stereotyping regarding the role of all women on board,” Teri O‘Toole, federal secretary of the FAAA told The Oz. “Female voices from the flight deck can only provide a positive flow on to the authority of cabin crew and recognition that cabin crew , with flight crew, hold responsibility for flight safety.”

The bloody nerve.

Ok, in that case, I’m going to ask the AFAP and AIPA to call for quotas on the sexuality of flight attendants: to have the ratio of straight vs gay flight attendants accurately reflect that of wider society. Having the correct proportion of straight to gay flight attendants will diminish the sexuality stereotyping of airline crews. Straight voices from the cabin can only provide a positive flow on to the authority of the aircraft’s crew and recognition that cabin crew, with flight crew, hold responsibility for flight safety.

(The last bit is bull-dust. Flight safety is entirely independent of whether the Captain is female or whether the CSM is gay. It is entirely dependent on each’s tech knowledge AND their ability to lead, inspire, communicate. But don’t let those facts get in the way of modern Aus’s stupid woke agendas).

[Wizofoz]

Plenty of female aviation role models past and present. Tokens are not required.
I could list them but there's no need.
The people pushing the "role model" idea remind me of the Tracy Curtis Taylor debacle.

My heroes are Amy Johnson and Neil Armstrong, not because of gender but because they achieved what at the time seemed impossible.

I've read the "the sky would be pink" article, I worked with Louise many years ago, she is certainly one to stand up for herself and as a member of AFAP I'm very happy to have her stand up for me. But that has nothing to do with our gender.

While silly comments about making coffee are annoying, I will add here my only real gender based issue, 30 years ago when a passenger on a charter decided at 9500 feet to get his dick out and have a wank right there in the right hand seat because he "couldn't take his eyes off my legs". After landing I told the boss I was not going to fly with him again and I was sacked on the spot, because "he is our best customer and he can do what he wants". I'm just glad it didn't turn violent.

And you're going to maintain there's no disincentive to women becoming pilots???

[dr dre]

Gawd. Now the FAAA is calling for pilot quotas, according to The Aus:



The FAAA are powerless to stop their own member’s conditions from being eroded, so their ability to institute any form of quota for those outside their profession will amount to zero. This is just an attempt to get a bit of publicity for themselves.

Heck even the pilot unions would not be able to get quotas instituted if they wanted it.

Like I said before there’s been all this talk of quotas going back at least 10 years or so and at the end of the day the ratio of women recruited is similar to application numbers. There has been an increase in female pilots due to more choosing it in the last 10 years. As the article states it’s up to 14% in the regionals who are taking younger pilots.

[demomonkey]

Tricky, so you ask a colleague out and he/she says no. When you then have them in the sim does that mean you can’t grade them badly for fear of perception that you are being unfair? It will be hard to link a poor grade to previous sexual advances.

It was their choice to ask that person out. Either the appraisal was accurate and you can point to qualitative evidence or it was discriminatory. Deal with it.

[500 Fan]

No. But there SHOULD be no reason nurses are predominently women or pilots predominently men.

But there is a reason why nurses are predominantly women. They choose to join that profession because it is a job they WANT to do. Men and women have different temperaments apparently, and those differences are manifested in the careers that women and men naturally gravitate towards. Women are more interested in people while men are more interested in things. Hence why men like machines, engineering and for a small portion of the global male population, piloting aircraft. That probably also explains why professions like nursing and teaching, for example, are dominated by women.

500 Fan.

[megan]

I’ve no idea what you’re trying to achieve with your post. Who here has given a girl(s) flak? Nobody. Yet here you are straight out of the gate with the ad hominems and a chip on your shoulderSo you're saying Louise Pole's allegations are nonsense. And your comprehension requires attention, show me where I said folk on here has given Gals flak. You're not Hempy with a new alias? Chip on the shoulder, no, but it sounds like you are well balanced, a chip on each.

[twentyelevens]

So you're saying Louise Pole's allegations are nonsense. And your comprehension requires attention, show me where I said folk on here has given Gals flak. You're not Hempy with a new alias? Chip on the shoulder, no, but it sounds like you are well balanced, a chip on each.

The internet is littered with people like you, so I chose my words carefully. You’re a bully.

You turn up to fora such as this and inject yourself into the debate with a barely relevant anecdote, to attempt to cover what you really came here for. To make yourself feel better by trying to make others feel bad. Throw around a few cliched insults, then feign some indignation when you get called on it, safe in the knowledge that there will be a few white knights (a couple on this thread - I’m sure you’ve identified them) to ride to your rescue to save you from the big bad bloke who called you out on your bullying. Then, straight to some usually, male authority figure to whinge and sook about how bad you’ve been treated having been called out.

Ive concede I’ve made a few assumptions in this reply, but I reckon I’m on the money here.
Never fear, my point is not gendered. There are plenty of males on this forum and the internet generally who exhibit exactly the same traits.

You have a lovely day ok? I suspect you plan otherwise however.

Balance because of a chip on each shoulder? 🤷‍♂️ That cliche is pretty stupid when you think about it - and there lies the problem for the people that do.

[Wizofoz]

Sensitive aren’t we. This you?

[twentyelevens]

This you?
Nah buddy.

There is this however. Like clockwork.
there will be a few white knights (a couple on this thread - I’m sure you’ve identified them) to ride to your rescue

[cxflog]

This you?
This gave me a good chuckle

[Clare Prop]

And you're going to maintain there's no disincentive to women becoming pilots???

Yes because that sort of thing could, and has, happened in other workplaces and situations as well. It's not specific to aviation.
More to do with the era I was born into when people thought scantily clad girls running away from pervs and double entendres were "comedy"
Thankfully a lot of the crap I had to put up with as a schoolgirl and later as an employee and student pilot is now illegal.
People complaining about a remark about making coffee and pink skies should be grateful they know what it was like being sexually assaulted during a flying lesson and then when reporting it to the CFI being told to stop being a prude and he does that to all the girls....and no, that wasn't going to make me give up.

The world is a much better place now

[Lookleft]

Interesting in America that the airlines are actively looking to recruit from demographics that traditionally have not been largely represented within the pilot body. Latinos, African Americans, and other groups that are on the lower socio economic scale. They have ditched the requirement for degrees and are looking to even fund the training so as to attract people who will make excellent airline pilots but economic barriers have prevented them from applying. When people are talking about making aviation in Australia more equal they are mainly talking about Caucasian females from middle class backgrounds having equal numbers in the flight deck to Caucasian middle class males.

[megan]

Sensitive aren’t weQuite an ironic post that I never got to see, seems our balanced chap deleted it, his posts on this thread show that he likes to take the bat to every body. Gave me a good chuckle as well cx.

[Ascend Charlie]

The internet is littered with people like you, so I chose my words carefully. You’re a bully.

You turn up to fora such as this and inject yourself into the debate with a barely relevant anecdote, to attempt to cover what you really came here for. To make yourself feel better by trying to make others feel bad. Throw around a few cliched insults, then feign some indignation when you get called on it, safe in the knowledge that there will be a few white knights (a couple on this thread - I’m sure you’ve identified them) to ride to your rescue to save you from the big bad bloke who called you out on your bullying. Then, straight to some usually, male authority figure to whinge and sook about how bad you’ve been treated having been called out.

Ive concede I’ve made a few assumptions in this reply, but I reckon I’m on the money here.
Never fear, my point is not gendered. There are plenty of males on this forum and the internet generally who exhibit exactly the same traits.

You have a lovely day ok? I suspect you plan otherwise however.

Balance because of a chip on each shoulder? 🤷‍♂️ That cliche is pretty stupid when you think about it - and there lies the problem for the people that do.

Wholly Katz, Twentyelevens, what a weird post.

What Megan said was "Those giving the girls flak need to wake up", referring to the idiots in the cockpit who caused the problem at the start. You jump on and make strange accusations.

Have a cup of tea and a Bex and a good lie down, you will be better soon.

[Wizofoz]

Nah buddy.

There is this however. Like clockwork.

'White Knight" of course being a way to attack WHO is arguing, rather WHAT they are arguing.

[Wizofoz]

Yes because that sort of thing could, and has, happened in other workplaces and situations as well. It's not specific to aviation.
More to do with the era I was born into when people thought scantily clad girls running away from pervs and double entendres were "comedy"
Thankfully a lot of the crap I had to put up with as a schoolgirl and later as an employee and student pilot is now illegal.
People complaining about a remark about making coffee and pink skies should be grateful they know what it was like being sexually assaulted during a flying lesson and then when reporting it to the CFI being told to stop being a prude and he does that to all the girls....and no, that wasn't going to make me give up.

The world is a much better place now
And, if you look at the various attitudes expressed here, what sort of person made it a better place?
And are you saying the change is complete, or is there still work to be done?

[Wizofoz]

Interesting in America that the airlines are actively looking to recruit from demographics that traditionally have not been largely represented within the pilot body. Latinos, African Americans, and other groups that are on the lower socio economic scale. They have ditched the requirement for degrees and are looking to even fund the training so as to attract people who will make excellent airline pilots but economic barriers have prevented them from applying. When people are talking about making aviation in Australia more equal they are mainly talking about Caucasian females from middle class backgrounds having equal numbers in the flight deck to Caucasian middle class males.

Great point. But you can bet, if and when that happens here, the same choir will be decrying it.

[tossbag]

And you're going to maintain there's no disincentive to women becoming pilots???

Whoop, whoop, warning Will Robinson, old white guy telling a woman what she should think.

[Fonsini]

The candidate pool for female pilots is much smaller than male pilots - if you force a large hiring quota on female candidates it becomes a mathematical certainty that you hire less competent pilots, the same is true in most STEM fields especially engineering.

Strange how these people never demand equal employment for women in sewage workers or bricklaying jobs (97% male by the way).

[Wizofoz]

Whoop, whoop, warning Will Robinson, old white guy telling a woman what she should think.
Nope, asking a question, Grownups can actually discuss things.

[finestkind]

Whoop, whoop, warning Will Robinson, old white guy telling a woman what she should think.


Unbelievable. Point 1. Attacking an individual and not the topic. Point 2. Doing exactly the same as a discriminator does by attempting to degrading someone because of race, age etc.


So, anyone that is white, male and old, should never make a comment on anything because they are white, old, and male.

[finestkind]

The candidate pool for female pilots is much smaller than male pilots - if you force a large hiring quota on female candidates it becomes a mathematical certainty that you hire less competent pilots, the same is true in most STEM fields especially engineering.

Strange how these people never demand equal employment for women in sewage workers or bricklaying jobs (97% male by the way).

Agree and if you have not seen, see post 78.

[Wizofoz]

Oh dr dre, you poor little dear, lighten up mate, you'll choke it..

This you?

[Clare Prop]

Back in 2019..

The national carrier has said that addressing the gender imbalance among pilots – which globally stands at just five per cent women – will be key to meeting market demand for aviators. Around 17 per cent of the 22,000 people who have registered their interest in the Academy are female.
APPLICATIONS OPEN FOR QANTAS GROUP PILOT ACADEMY (qantasnewsroom.com.au) (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/applications-open-for-qantas-group-pilot-academy/)

Anyone know...how many of the 17% who registered an interest in 2019
a) were told they couldn't get on the course because they were female and the sky wasn't pink
b) started the course
c) finished the course
d) got a job with Qantas at the end of it, ahead of a guy with the same aptitude?

I have anecdotal information but would be interested in some real numbers.

[Capt Kremin]

This thread is both drearily predictable and noteworthy for the complete absence of any facts relating to the original article in the Oz.

While I am talking about that, the original OZ article is also noteworthy for its lack balance and insight.

The truth of what happened bears no relationship to actual discrimination, but the attempt to portray certain events as discrimination.

Others have said it, but it bears repeating; if an organisation representing the physical incarnation of peak woke, the QF HR department, took six months to return a verdict of no discrimination by those accused, then there are other factors at play.

You can work out what those factors would be by imagining yourself as an average Pilot now rostered to fly or be a simulator support pilot for the complainant.

You can also cogitate on the possible mental state of those were accused of something they simply didn’t do, whose names were printed in the newspaper, and who received no support from their Chief Pilot for the 25 weeks their futures were being debated by an organisation with an awesome reputation for puritanical virtue signaling.

Have a think about those things and the ramifications of the current situation will become blindingly clear.

[one for the road]

Well said Kremin! The rest is just tosh

[SixDemonBag]

Very very well said Krem

[olster]

Spot on Kremlin. The mind blowing steering off course resulting in pathetic virtue signalling and insults from cowardly keyboard warriors. Very few here know the truth but it doesn’t stop the drivel. As a long time airline pilot I could care less about the gender, sexuality or colour of my colleagues as long as they do a professional job.

[Aussie Fo]

Finally Capt Kremlin makes some valid points.

The total vibe of the article, the way it’s been handled in Qantas, the lack of mention, the divulgence of innocent peoples names makes me wonder if it hasn’t been done with the tactile support of HR? Perhaps file photos or recent?

Not to mention the self indulgence of the claimant that she’s the trailblazer, despite the not insignificant women who hold leading roles inside Qantas all remaining silent.

The self importance.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Capt Kremin nails this whole thread. Nothing left to say.

[hotnhigh]

I’d suggest there are very interesting times ahead for the Hawthorne football club and also qantas.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Capt Kremin nails this whole thread. Nothing left to say.

Couldn’t agree more!

[Ollie Onion]

Some people don't like him but Jordan Petersen does a great talk on Gender equality in work and why is can never work along with why some careers favours one gender over the other. He talks about why the Legal proffession is dominated by Females and why a quota system will NEVER work. As stated above, if you take a profession such as nursing which has a low percentage of male participants and enforce a 50/50 quota you will end up with lesser quality candidates. If you really want to 'even' things out you need to address the reasons we have a lower number of females interested in a flying career and that is a very long term project.

[First_Principal]

From a reference in this thread (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/649576-cl-415-crash-firefighting-italy-27-10-22-a-3.html), and at least vaguely relevant to some of the discussion here, I found the discourse from about 7:25 in this video to be quite interesting. Great attitude:


https://youtu.be/DclvUrMz8TY?t=446

[bcflyer]

I’ve never seen a female baggage loader. They all work behind a desk.

I want an airport to set quotas for every single role.

I’ve seen plenty of female baggage handlers.

[Led Zeppelin]

The real issue is elements of the print media which published the names of some of the alleged QF offenders.

Those check and/or training pilots whose names were published, must now have grounds for court action, especially given QF has said in the same article that the assertions by the claimant were not substantiated.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

The real issue is elements of the print media which published the names of some of the alleged QF offenders.



And who provided those names to the print media, and for what reason,

[tossbag]

And who provided those names to the print media, and for what reason,

Wouldn't be hard to find out right. maybe the name of the person/s who leaked to the media, should be leaked to the media.

[dr dre]

And who provided those names to the print media, and for what reason,

Media companies have access to full court documents, so no names would’ve been “leaked”. They simply had access to the documents and as there was no suppression order from the court they were free to publish them.

[Lead Balloon]

Private citizens have access as well. Members of the public have a right to inspect any court file (subject to the court restricting access to some files or some documents in some files in special circumstances, as dr dre said).

[prickly]

What I can't come to terms with, despite this being Qantas, is a bloke putting the hard word on one of his colleagues in a city like Bangkok. Just doesn't make sense.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Media companies have access to full court documents, so no names would’ve been “leaked”. They simply had access to the documents and as there was no suppression order from the court they were free to publish them.

I understood that the issue involving C&T pilots was dealt with internally by QF HR and didn’t involve the courts (unlike this more recent harassment case). Not so?

[Troo believer]

Seems like the RAF have a similar conundrum. Standards are standards that bare no correlation to gender but it seems that’s been forgotten.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11121911/Dogfight-freeze-hiring-white-men-RAF-reveals-absurd-folly-diversity-quotas.html

[tossbag]

I understood that the issue involving C&T pilots was dealt with internally by QF HR and didn’t involve the courts

So, the matter could have been dealt with internally but names still made it to the media? Leaked by whom?

[Slippery_Pete]

I often got asked to get preflight coffee for long haul operations. The responsibility was shared around amongst all pilots, SOs included. Quite often at briefing, the Captain would say “it’s my turn this transit” and arrived at the flight deck 10 mins later with four coffees while everyone else had made a start on preflight.

In fact, most people got enjoyment from bringing coffee for the other pilots and it was often good for building rapport at the start of a trip. It never occurred to me that it was anything other than normal.

Im glad that now and anytime into the future, if I fail at anything in life and want to avoid looking inward, I will be able to retrospectively claim I was discriminated against for having a penis and having to get coffees.

Further, imagine if, as a man, my parents had the foresight to name me “Emilya”. All I’d need to do is perceive in my own mind that one person looked surprised at my male gender when they met me… bingo, get my victim game on and demand a heap of cash.

I hope the pilots named in the article litigate.

[WhoFlungDung]

So, the matter could have been dealt with internally but names still made it to the media? Leaked by whom?

which media organisation published the names?

[tossbag]

Dunno, just joining in the convo, read that names were leaked but then told if it's in the courts then names are public, but if it was dealt with internally then names would have been confidential, which means someone leaked to the media?

[red_dirt]

Good luck to him, i wish him well and good luck in court

[Blue_Circle]

I often got asked to get preflight coffee for long haul operations. The responsibility was shared around amongst all pilots, SOs included. Quite often at briefing, the Captain would say “it’s my turn this transit” and arrived at the flight deck 10 mins later with four coffees while everyone else had made a start on preflight.

In fact, most people got enjoyment from bringing coffee for the other pilots and it was often good for building rapport at the start of a trip. It never occurred to me that it was anything other than normal.

Im glad that now and anytime into the future, if I fail at anything in life and want to avoid looking inward, I will be able to retrospectively claim I was discriminated against for having a penis and having to get coffees.

Further, imagine if, as a man, my parents had the foresight to name me “Emilya”. All I’d need to do is perceive in my own mind that one person looked surprised at my male gender when they met me… bingo, get my victim game on and demand a heap of cash.

I hope the pilots named in the article litigate.
Alternatively, imagine if say at least 50% of the time you arrive for your preflight to be greeted with a cheerful get is a coffee love perhaps you’d think differently. Apart from the case itself, some of the comments on this thread are the most depressing stuff I’ve read in ages.

[Troo believer]

Alternatively, imagine if say at least 50% of the time you arrive for your preflight to be greeted with a cheerful get is a coffee love perhaps you’d think differently. Apart from the case itself, some of the comments on this thread are the most depressing stuff I’ve read in ages.
That’s rubbish. I’ve never seen or heard a male pilot speak to a female pilot in those terms. Quite the opposite I’d say. Here is more food for thought.
https://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/yes-sometimes-women-are-sexist-too-let-s-look-a-little-deeper-20221107-p5bw8y.html

[Icarus2001]

I have seen two female CC managers who should be ashamed of themselves for the way they treated their female subordinates. I have never seen a man treat women like that.

[blind pew]

An old mucka recanted a story whilst flying with the fleet chief on a wide body with a lady rhs who advised said chief that he should go around as they were unstabilised..chief replied in a vein of go back to your knitting ‘DEAR’ and carried on with the approach. Mucka removed the FDR tape and handed it to the chief mentioning he was out of order…
My last lot didn’t get females in the cockpit until well into the 1980s with some of the locals refusing to fly with them as enlarging crew.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

imagine if say at least 50% of the time you arrive for your preflight to be greeted with a cheerful get is a coffee love perhaps you’d think differently.

’Imagine’ being the operative word, since there’s no actual evidence of anything of the sort happening, outside your own imagination.

[mustafagander]

I really think that we might be winding each other up here.
I can only think of maybe a couple of d1ckhead CPT who treated the women pilots that we had with any sort of disrespect. Unsurprisingly these clowns spent their slip time drinking alone.
In my 46 years in Flt Ops I discovered that there were male and female pilots in all strata - those who were excellent, those who were good standard operators, those who were marginal and a few of both genders who weren't worth feeding.
I saw all our women treated with respect or I had words with the perpetrators, just like most of my colleagues.