20+ hours delay on QF flagship flight

[Pinkman]

Yesterday’s QF10 LHR-PER direct flight delayed by over 20 hours due to a “technical issue”. Many of the pax overnighted in local hotels and told to get up at 4am for an 08:30 departure this morning. I’m guessing it was too late to reroute on other carriers via DXB but heck - 20 hours??? They got to see their own project sunrise from the Radisson Edwardian. What happened?

[compressor stall]

There was probably a technical issue with the aircraft and it couldn’t fly until fixed.

[DaveReidUK]

Inbound flight looks to have gone u/s in Perth. These things happen ...

[Check Airman]

16 hour flight eh? Pray for the folks who aren't in business class.

[250 kts]

Is it really worth a thread that an aircraft has gone tech?

[Pinkman]

Normally, no. But what tech issue warrants a 20 hour delay? If it’s an engine change it starts to become interesting given the historical power plant issues with the 789, the length of the flight and the fact it was the poster child for Project Sunrise. Mods, feel free to put it somewhere else.

[Kiwiconehead]

Normally, no. But what tech issue warrants a 20 hour delay?

When there is a 16hr sector involved, a tech delay soon becomes a crew out of hours problem, better to call it early, send the crew to the hotel so they can try again in the morning.

[PoppaJo]

Flagship route or not, it’s an aircraft, it breaks down. Engineering isn’t available instantaneously either like it used to be, especially on the other side of the world at an airport with two departures a day. A spare part might need to be shipped over from the US. Engineering departments are still struggling to maintain some form of basic inventory. Getting a part from Seattle from what I have seen at my employer recently had been nothing but a nightmare, plan 1-2 months.

Seat availability is very tight at the moment especially on the Kangaroo route. I know people last week who had to route London to Sydney via San Francisco due to lack of availability.

[Babyjet_dododo]

There could be multiple reasons why it was delayed 20 hours:
- A no dispatch MEL
-Crew called in unfit for duty

For the former, parts are not readily available and needs time to get from Seattle to Perth, and 20 hours is considered lightening fast considering it’s about 2 hours from SEA to LAX/SFO then another 15.5 hours to SYD and 4.5 hours to PER, including transit and handling, I think that’s quick!

[T28B]

Normally, no. But what tech issue warrants a 20 hour delay? If it’s an engine change it starts to become interesting given the historical power plant issues with the 789, the length of the flight and the fact it was the poster child for Project Sunrise. Mods, feel free to put it somewhere else. I will not be moving this thread. This discussion is useful and informative for a wide audience both inside and outside the airline industry.
We already have some informed inputs on getting parts, crew limits, maintenance concerns, and more.
Please carry on.

[VariablePitchP]

Normally, no. But what tech issue warrants a 20 hour delay? If it’s an engine change it starts to become interesting given the historical power plant issues with the 789, the length of the flight and the fact it was the poster child for Project Sunrise. Mods, feel free to put it somewhere else.

One of the FOs wakes up with a blocked nose, captain drops his bag getting off the crew bus and breaks his spare set of glasses. Sounds ridiculous but that’s enough to cancel the flight. One flight a day from an outstation and it’s curtains for the plan.

[vs69]

Sadly 787s can fall over for a number of reasons and they aren’t always easily fixed without spares or specific tooling. The air con system is more complex than normal and a combination of MEL defects in that department can lead to restrictions on crew rest use so theres one example.
As mentioned earlier in the thread spares availability is not limited to any one operator at the moment so something to bear in mind.

[wub]

I was delayed 24 hours in May on a BA 787-9 from Singapore to Heathrow. We departed the gate on time but were still on the ground 2 hours later. An announcement was made that there was an engine fault and we returned to the gate where a "procedure' was carried out, which then entailed a 15 minute engine run at high power, so we left the gate to do that. It didn't cure the fault so we returned to the gate. The captain gave us the option to eat on board since we had been there for five hours by then. We were bussed to hotels and waited till a spare part was flown out from UK. We departed 24 hours later.

[wiggy]

The aircraft type quite possibly isn't really relevant ...as others have said if you are at what is an outstation for the company, where you may not have spare crew/aircraft readily available, things can fall over very easily and a long delay can result, especially if it's an Long Haul/Ultra Long Haul sector and the delay only becomes apparent after the crew have reported and the duty clock is running.

I can remember two 72 'ish hour delays for crew and airframe in my time on the 744 due to an engine related issues at outstations (same basic engineering problem both cases), fortunately in both cases it was possible to disperse the passengers in 24 hours or so.

[pilotmike]

When there is a 16hr sector involved, a tech delay soon becomes a crew out of hours problem, better to call it early, send the crew to the hotel so they can try again in the morning.
Oh well, if the plane went tech AND the crew went out of hours, that would DEFINITELY be worthy of its own thread in R&N.

[Globaliser]

But what tech issue warrants a 20 hour delay?This is just the nature of long-haul ops, isn't it, particularly given timings? And the problem doesn't even have to occur at an outstation.

A few years back I (SLF) was on a BA 744 at LHR departing late in the evening for JNB. During taxi, the weather radar was found to be faulty. Back at the gate, there were a couple of hours of unsuccessful attempts to fix it, and then we hit the curfew and crew hours limits. In theory, there was a small window first thing in the morning for another attempt, but there may have been no spare aircraft and the crew may not yet have had enough rest by then. Any later departure would have mean an arrival at JNB in the middle of the night, with all the attendant problems. So our next reasonable departure time was about 20 hours after the original time, overnight for an early morning arrival at JNB.

I really felt for our cabin crew, who were then going to take minimum rest at JNB during the day and then fly overnight back to LHR on the same evening. It reminded me why I should always cut a grumpy crew a bit of slack because I don't know what they've already had to deal with before I meet them.

[Rwy in Sight]

And it is one of the reasons I say hello to the crew and ask what their previous sectors were.

[Mr Mac]

Rey in Sight
Always and I mean always, have been very polite to crew or anybody serving me in what ever capacity. You can comment afterwards if you so wish or discuss it here, but not faire at the time unless massive issue.

Cheers
Mr Mach

[tdracer]

. An announcement was made that there was an engine fault and we returned to the gate where a "procedure' was carried out, which then entailed a 15 minute engine run at high power, so we left the gate to do that. It didn't cure the fault so we returned to the gate.

That's a common problem with engine faults - they generally don't show until after you start the engines. Further, ETOPS means a more restrictive MEL (on the 767 there were different columns in the Master MEL for ETOPS and non-ETOPS - since the 787 was designed for ETOPS it may always use the more restrictive ETOPS MEL).

[Fly3]

If this was being operated under Ultra Long-haul Rules then the crew would only have two departure "windows", each nominally four hours long. If they miss these for any reason, including due to technical delays, then the flight cannot depart that day. Changing crews does not help because the "windows" remain in force.

[Herod]

Fly3; Can you explain those rules please? I only flew short/medium haul, with no augmented crew. Therefore of course, we only had one duty period, governed by start-time, and captain's discretion at the end.

[Capt Fathom]

1 hr sign on, 17:30 flight time, 30 min sign off. That’s 19hrs duty already. Doesn’t leave much of a window for delays?

[smith]

Does that mean 2x787's flew out the next day PER-LHR? The delayed one and the scheduled one? Were none of the pax re-routed?

[DaveReidUK]

Does that mean 2x787's flew out the next day PER-LHR? The delayed one and the scheduled one? Were none of the pax re-routed?
No, no and no.

[Climb150]

Lots of explanations being put out with regards to how ULH works but what I want to know is,

Why are they doing ULH from an out station? Very small pool of spare parts and crew. Getting more spare parts and crew is 6+ hours minimum. I am surprised it does not turn to muck more often.

[Fly3]

When I flew ULR routes, defined as any flight over 16 hours flight time, each city pair had to be authorised individually. They worked out two departure windows based on circadian rhymes in order to ensure that arrival time did not coincide with a double low. There would normally be two windows in each 24 hour period. Flight duty time is not fixed but was defined as projected flight-time plus three hours with no captains discretion. All flights were to be double crewed and crew rest had to include at least two rest periods each, of which one must be at least four hours. One crew was designated as "command crew" and the other relief crew. The command crew would do the take off and landing with at least one of the relief crew on the jump seat as an extra pair of eyes to monitor the operation. Although we thought the rest period rules very strange to begin with they proved to be infinitely superior to the 50/50 we had been used to on normal long-haul flights.

[smith]

Lots of explanations being put out with regards to how ULH works but what I want to know is,

Why are they doing ULH from an out station? Very small pool of spare parts and crew. Getting more spare parts and crew is 6+ hours minimum. I am surprised it does not turn to muck more often.

Because the 787 can't make LHR-SYD non-stop. Qantas wants bragging rights for flying LHR-Oz non-stop and Sydney is not do-able in one hop at the moment.

[smith]

No, no and no.

Dick, dick and dick.

Lot of crew out of position. too many pax for combined single flight.

[wiggy]

Lots of explanations being put out with regards to how ULH works but what I want to know is,

Why are they doing ULH from an out station? Very small pool of spare parts and crew. Getting more spare parts and crew is 6+ hours minimum. I am surprised it does not turn to muck more often.

Many airlines would be a bit poorly placed if they couldn't do ULH anywhere other than from base..

The problems you list (crew/spares) apply, give or take, pretty much across all Long Haul Ops in general, augmented crew or not, regardless of the Ultra bit.

Last time I worked when away from base (which of course was the case for about 50% ish of departures) we didn't have spare crew at the slip hotel, formally on stand-by legally rested, ready to spring into action.

If there was a snag and a fix wasn't possible in time available it was everybody off, crew back to the hotel and then minimum rest, potentially 12 hours plus before (hopefully) trying again....and has been mentioned upthread often other factors would kick in (slots, night jet bans) that meant in reality a 24 ish hour delay would be in order.

The scale of the QF delay might be down to the "UU" factor but on the surface it appears to be a fairly standard Long Haul delay, if there is such a thing.

[punkalouver]

One of the FOs wakes up with a blocked nose, captain drops his bag getting off the crew bus and breaks his spare set of glasses. Sounds ridiculous but that’s enough to cancel the flight. One flight a day from an outstation and it’s curtains for the plan.

I started carrying a third pair of glasses with me after realizing the consequences of having a pair lost/stolen/broken, etc.

It can take a long time to get a new set made.

[VariablePitchP]

I started carrying a third pair of glasses with me after realizing the consequences of having a pair lost/stolen/broken, etc.

It can take a long time to get a new set made.

I’ve always wondered what happens. Commercially it makes sense to throw the pilot into a taxi, straight to the nearest opticians and throw £1000 at them to skip the queue and bypass any manufacturing delays for the glasses.

[albatross]

The most dreaded words…”A Hydraulic System Issue”, Never, ever a quick fix.

[hans brinker]

I started carrying a third pair of glasses with me after realizing the consequences of having a pair lost/stolen/broken, etc.

It can take a long time to get a new set made.

I am required to have 2 sets of reading glasses (age 😒🤷‍♂️), but can get by with cheap cheaters. Normally carry 4 pairs with me.

[Herod]

Thanks Fly3.

[Old Carthusian]

I was delayed 20 hours on a B.747 flight out of Beijing. There the issue was an engine which went wrong and British Airways flew a spare in from Hong Kong. Being Rolls Royce powered there wasn't much else they could do but the organisation was chaotic.

[WHBM]

Getting a part from Seattle from what I have seen at my employer recently had been nothing but a nightmare, plan 1-2 months.

Presumably another Boeing approach to minimise stock of spares values on the Balance Sheet, and drive their share price up.

Did nobody there notice that what killed the Sukhoi Superjet more than anything else was abysmal spares support ?

[Kiltrash]

I was once delayed ex Brisbane for 18 hours as although the spare part could be sourced( borrowed ) from QF easily there was no licenced engineer to swop it out ... Extra night in OZ and Compo $$...and we were only going to NZ 😐

[Pinkman]

Does that mean 2x787's flew out the next day PER-LHR? The delayed one and the scheduled one? Were none of the pax re-routed?

….but there were two 787s at LHR the following day and they departed for Perth about three hours apart. The flight that was delayed left at 08:30 and had its flight number changed slightly to distinguish it from the later on-time flight. As the OP it’s been interesting - thanks to an enlightened mod - we’ve probably done it to death but my point was - if you are going to have a 17 hour ULH flight that turns into a 37 hour journey (40 hours + door to door) you’re going to have to get sharper with contingency planning; and from the replies it looks like spares inventory and crewing need to be looked at too. It’s been interesting- thanks everyone.

[megan]

you’re going to have to get sharper with contingency planning; and from the replies it looks like spares inventory and crewing need to be looked at tooWhatever you want to do to ameliorate delays is going to cost, are you ready for the impost? How about each flight has another fly along in formation empty in case the one with the pax breaks.

[Hartington]

It's all very well suggesting ULH should not operate from somewhere like Perth but even when Sydney/London starts Sydeney might well be the Qantas home base but Heathrow is an outstation. The likelihood is that any ULH will use an outstation.

[WHBM]

It's by no means unknown, and has been for decades, that where the longest-haul flights of the era get a delay, particularly at the remote spoke end of their network, you get a 24-hour delay. I certainly recall LHR-LAX in the 1970s, where a fuellers sudden strike at Heathrow meant after just a couple of hours that the crew were no longer in hours, and it was held over to the next day. Such is life on long haul, as those who have long experience of it know only too well. It's one of those costs of (normally) being able to shoot from one end of the world to the other.

Credit to Qantas for running both aircraft the following day, and not just rebooking everyone squashed in to other flights and carriers, which many others will do.

[DP.]

I had c.24hr delay with Air Canada out of MAN quite a few years ago. Aircraft pushed back and a problem materialised, so back to the gate. Engineers spent a couple of hours looking at it, and thought they'd fixed it. Pushed back a second time, the problem reoccurred. They spent another hour looking at it before calling it a day. Everyone back to a hotel, and we eventually got away the following morning.

[wiggy]

if you are going to have a 17 hour ULH flight that turns into a 37 hour journey (40 hours + door to door) you’re going to have to get sharper with contingency planning; and from the replies it looks like spares inventory and crewing need to be looked at too. It’s been interesting- thanks everyone.

To reiterate the point megan made: how much are you prepared to pay for this increased inventory and crewing?

Providing dedicated standby crews at outstations, by perhaps increasing slip durations beyond the required minimum so you have more than minimum crew on site, will cause the bean counters will have apoplexy (due increased the increased fleet pilot and cabin crew establishment you'll need to cover it, plus hotel costs, plus allowances, plus plus etc...). They'll look at cost v benefit and say "no thanks, we'll accept the odd delay".

As others have said there's nothing really extra extra special about the QF ULH LHR-PER flight that hasn't applied to many a Long Haul sector over the years...there's no magic solution if things or people go T U, and regardless of contingency plans, be they sharp or blunt, you sometimes can't avoid substantial delays.

[Climb150]

It's all very well suggesting ULH should not operate from somewhere like Perth but even when Sydney/London starts Sydeney might well be the Qantas home base but Heathrow is an outstation. The likelihood is that any ULH will use an outstation.
​​​​​​
LHR might very well be an outstation for Qantas but the availability of parts and engineering services dwarfs Perth. There is no comparison.

[OldVenturaJockey]

I was on that flight with my wife so let me inform you that after a 20 hour delay QF 10 did not take off at 8:30 but 9:40 so a further over hour delay making another hour in the aircraft. Yes we were business class. I personally found the cabin crew very friendly and helpful during the 17 hour flight

My wife had discussions with the cabin crew who told her the initial problem was a major fault in the air conditioning but that then blew the pilot rostering, resulting in a substantial delay getting the four pilots necessary for the flight.

Now in Oz many people tell me that Qantas suffers many long delays and cancellations.

[albatross]

Waiting for a flight to Africa once at. Paris CDG.
Capt and co-pilot emerge from the jetway screaming at one another and exit the lounge.
Cabin attendants show up next.
Aircraft ( B 747 named Big Boss ) is towed away.
Turned out there had been a fist fight in the cockpit.
Off to a very nice hotel. ( luckily we were sitting with the country’s ambassador to the UN and he wanted us to go to to the same hotel as himself.)
After a very pleasant evening we departed the next afternoon with an Air France crew.
Just as an aside it was also the day that Sodamn Insane invaded Kuwait.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Perth is not a little GA FBO. There are plenty of wide bodies fly into it not just C150's, which a lot of you have us believe. QF flies a mixture of wide and narrow bodies from SYD and MEL and same to south east asia. I have flown both 737 and 747 SYD-PER depending on time of day. So I would imagine PER has a large inventory of spares. It's ridiculous to think that every spare needs to be flown from Seattle every time a boeing goes tech. The spares are made in factories all around the world and even so there will be spares locally at most large airports.

[717tech]

Perth is not a little GA FBO. There are plenty of wide bodies fly into it not just C150's, which a lot of you have us believe. QF flies a mixture of wide and narrow bodies from SYD and MEL and same to south east asia. I have flown both 737 and 747 SYD-PER depending on time of day. So I would imagine PER has a large inventory of spares. It's ridiculous to think that every spare needs to be flown from Seattle every time a boeing goes tech. The spares are made in factories all around the world and even so there will be spares locally at most large airports.


A Qatar B777 went tech in PER last week. It was mentioned on social media that it was due to a cracked windscreen, and the replacement part arrived on the next days scheduled service. So, it needs to be understood that a spare pool of parts wont always save the day. An alternative would be to have a spare Aircraft at each port. That's not going to happen.

[Dannyboy39]

A Qatar B777 went tech in PER last week. It was mentioned on social media that it was due to a cracked windscreen, and the replacement part arrived on the next days scheduled service. So, it needs to be understood that a spare pool of parts wont always save the day. An alternative would be to have a spare Aircraft at each port. That's not going to happen.
A windscreen change is hardly a common occurrence that you would keep a spare in a line station. For one thing, you probably need to put the aircraft into a hangar for 12 hours for the sealant to come up.

[DaveReidUK]

The spares are made in factories all around the world and even so there will be spares locally at most large airports.

In your dreams.

[wiggy]

It's ridiculous to think that every spare needs to be flown from Seattle every time a boeing goes tech. The spares are made in factories all around the world and even so there will be spares locally at most large airports.


As DaveReid UK says, "in your dreams"....

Personally, twice upon a time ....

24 hour delay eastern seaboard of the US getting a small spare bit (Flight Deck display component) for a Boeing.....another time 48 hour plus delay on the west Coast (SFO to be exact) waiting for a spare for a fuel system component, again for a Boeing....

[CargoOne]

Even if you keep an extensive spares inventory at outstation, great chance it will not save the day for ULH. Troubleshooting the problem, getting the spare (which could be 30 min drive airside one way in large airports), replacement, testing, paperwork - and the crew is out of duty. The way to go almost bulletproof is to keep a hot standby aircraft for departure but if I am not mistaken only BA (and possibly AF) did it in JFK for Concord operation. It is simply way too expensive for the normal business.

[WHBM]

Even if you keep an extensive spares inventory at outstation, great chance it will not save the day for ULH. Troubleshooting the problem, getting the spare (which could be 30 min drive airside one way in large airports), replacement, testing, paperwork - and the crew is out of duty.
If I am not mistaken a windscreen is unlikely to crack on the ground, but would give trouble on the previous sector, likewise many other items. Reported directly, hopefully the engineer and likely parts will be awaiting the inbound arrival on stand.

[CargoOne]

If I am not mistaken a windscreen is unlikely to crack on the ground, but would give trouble on the previous sector, likewise many other items. Reported directly, hopefully the engineer and likely parts will be awaiting the inbound arrival on stand.

The windscreen has a sealant curing time when replaced. Also when the outside temperatures are low and/or drizzle/rain/snow it has to be done in a hangar. I vividly remember a 5 hours waiting to get a clearance to cross the active runway in order to tow the aircraft to a hangar the other side of runway at one congested EU airport…

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

To reiterate the point megan made: how much are you prepared to pay for this increased inventory and crewing?

Providing dedicated standby crews at outstations, by perhaps increasing slip durations beyond the required minimum so you have more than minimum crew on site, will cause the bean counters will have apoplexy (due increased the increased fleet pilot and cabin crew establishment you'll need to cover it, plus hotel costs, plus allowances, plus plus etc...). They'll look at cost v benefit and say "no thanks, we'll accept the odd delay".

As others have said there's nothing really extra extra special about the QF ULH LHR-PER flight that hasn't applied to many a Long Haul sector over the years...there's no magic solution if things or people go T U, and regardless of contingency plans, be they sharp or blunt, you sometimes can't avoid substantial delays.

They will have PER based crews, not rocket science. I live in GLA Scotland and a friend of mine is QF cabin crew based at LHR. I’m sure there was a ton of staff at PER to their disposal. Bean counters can relax.

[DaveReidUK]

They will have PER based crews, not rocket science. I live in GLA Scotland and a friend of mine is QF cabin crew based at LHR. I’m sure there was a ton of staff at PER to their disposal. Bean counters can relax.

Thanks again for your helpful insight into how airlines operate.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Thanks again for your helpful insight into how airlines operate.

You said the delayed and scheduled flight would NOT,NOT,NOT run on the same day. Guess what, THEY DID, three hours apart!!! Like to see your insights are more accurate than mine,

[WHBM]

24 hour delay eastern seaboard of the US getting a small spare bit (Flight Deck display component) for a Boeing.....another time 48 hour plus delay on the west Coast (SFO to be exact) waiting for a spare for a fuel system component, again for a Boeing....
We often don't get the full details on this sort of thing. Sure, the spare may be on a shelf in the stores within sight, but are we waiting for an authorisation from HQ ? Does the cost of it require more than one authorisation there ? Have we maxed out our credit limit ? Do any funds have to be wired through ? Has the bill from two months ago still not been paid yet ?