'Carpetbaggers' B-24 photo

[Jhieminga]

A relative showed me this photo and I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on it. The B-24 has a (to me) strange nose configuration, I have learned that this was done for the 'Carpetbaggers' airframes. Unfortunately we only know that her father worked in maintenance in the UK during the war, at one time at RAF Wittering, nothing more. Any ideas, thoughts, bits of knowledge are welcome.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x830/img_7329_resize_7f5422925ccb090af269c3ae0806c746f3b03010.jpg

[chevvron]

The photo appears to show all RAF personnel, yet the Carpetbaggers, according to Wiki, were used by the USAAF for clandestine ops such as dropping and retrieving secret agents.
Painted all black, the lower pattern of the nose looks like a B24D with its optical 'flat' but with the upper nose turret replaced by the glazed upper part possbly from a B24A.

[bobward]

I've a copy of Martin Streetly's book 'The Aircraft of 100 Group' (ISBN 0 7090 1043 5, published in 1984) on the shelf. In the chapter on the B24 he notes that USAAF did operate two squadrons of B24's in the Carpet Bagger role. These were the 857 and 858 Bombardment squadrons. They were used in the jamming and ELINT roles, alongside 100 Group. As they had a close relationship with 100 Group, they were known to have visited their RAF counterparts at RAF Oulton in Norfolk.

The RAF versions had the nose turret disarmed and covered in doped fabric. Photos of USAAF B24's show the gazed nose, similar the B24D's on J model Liberators.

Hope this helps a bit.

[bobward]

The aircraft in the background looks like an Oxford (?) Lack of markings on the front of the B24 might suggest it's American, rather than RAF.
Looking at the guns in the upper turret, are they flash eliminators or the muzzles?

An interesting picture Jhieminga!

[Yellow Sun]

An interesting photograph with a quite a few unusual features:

1. There is at least one collar atttached shirt in the photo. RAF shirts were separate collar.
2. Schoolboy in centre front -who is he?
3. Different belt buckles, 3rd from left back row is circular. The other 3 buckles visible are rectangular.
4. Is that 2 tea mugs front extreme right?

It's probably summer which might help narrow the timeframe a bit.

YS

[TCU]

According to the "Combat Squadrons of The Air Force, World War II", published by the Department of the Air Force, Office of Air Force History in 1982, the 857th flew Carpetbagging missions between the period 10th August - 16th September 1944 and the 858th flew them between the same dates plus 12th March to 25th April 1945.

The record notes that the 859th also flew Carpetbagging missions during the same 1944 period and also 31st December 1944 to the end of the war in May 1945.

So photo late summer 1944?

The 857th flew the B24, B17, A26, P51 and C47.
The 858th flew the B24, A26, C47 and interestingly the Mosquito in 1945
The 859th flew a proper medley including L49, O-46, O-47, B18, B24, B17, B25 and C47

857th UK bases included North Pickenham, Harrington, Bassingbourne and Alconbury
858th UK bases included North Pickenham, Cheddington and Harrington
859th Uk bases included North Pickenham and Harrington

[DaveReidUK]

Forgive me asking, but what's an L49 ?

[treadigraph]

Think it would be the Stinson O-49, later L-1 Vigilant.

[sycamore]

Try ‘www.donholloway.com/carpetbaggers/index’ for a video...

[TCU]

Forgive me asking, but what's an L49 ?

David, I guess its the Connie

Here is a link to the document I mentioned....the 857th, 858th and 859th details can be found on pages 784-785

https://media.defense.gov/2010/Dec/02/2001329899/-1/-1/0/AFD-101202-002.pdf

[treadigraph]

David, I guess its the Connie

The early USAAF Connies were designated the C-69, however the 859th apparently did fly Stinson Vigilants which was the O-49, later redesignated the L-1 so I'd suggest L-49 is a corruption of the two designations.

[TCU]

The early USAAF Connies were designated the C-69, however the 859th apparently did fly Stinson Vigilants which was the O-49, later redesignated the L-1 so I'd suggest L-49 is a corruption of the two designations.

That sounds like a good explanation treadigraph, which seems to be vindicated by the 859th's wiki page

[Jhieminga]

David, I guess its the Connie
I will have to go with Treadigraph's explanation as well. Looking at the timeline for the Constellation/C-69's early days, there is no way that it could have been in service in 1943, let alone 1942 as indicated for the 859th.

Thanks everyone for all the interesting information about this photo! After a tip, I have also sent it to the Harrington Aviation Museum to see if they have any thoughts about it. I think it will remain a mystery as to how it relates to an RAF mechanic, but it is unearthing some very interesting aspects!

[DHfan]

I immediately thought Connie too but couldn't make the numbers or timescale work.

The O-49 seems a lot different to all the other aircraft mentioned.

[Jhieminga]

The 859th flew anti-submarine patrols from various airfields along the US east coast during 1942 and 1943 before switching to bombing missions in the ETO during 1944. I can see how this led to the 'medley' of types mentioned ;)

[Choccy Lab]

The photo appears to show all RAF personnel, yet the Carpetbaggers, according to Wiki, were used by the USAAF for clandestine ops such as dropping and retrieving secret agents.
Painted all black, the lower pattern of the nose looks like a B24D with its optical 'flat' but with the upper nose turret replaced by the glazed upper part possbly from a B24A.

It's almost certainly a B-24H, turret removed and replaced with a specially created 'glasshouse'; there are insufficient clues to suggest a serial no. The MG IS equipped with flash reducers/eliminators.

[megan]

The link lists the serial of all Carpetbagger B-24 aircraft, the download link along side each serial contains varying information, some including photos. At a stretch if you go through all the downloads you may find the photo that began the thread. Stranger things have happened.

A side note, pilots preferred the then out of date D model that had the nose as presented in the photo as it allowed a better view for the bombardier when dropping supplies, other aircraft had he standard nose turret. That narrows the photo down to being a B-24D.

http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/B24Index.htm

[Flying Binghi]

A relative showed me this photo and I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on it. The B-24 has a (to me) strange nose configuration, I have learned that this was done for the 'Carpetbaggers' airframes. Unfortunately we only know that her father worked in maintenance in the UK during the war, at one time at RAF Wittering, nothing more. Any ideas, thoughts, bits of knowledge are welcome.



Often those old black and white photos show a lot of fine detail under magnification. If the photo is to hand perhaps you could have a look-see and comment on any numbers or words that show up that are not visible on the pixilated computer shot we get to see here.

[Jhieminga]

Unfortunately the pixilated view that is here is what's on the print. For some reason this print is not very sharp, perhaps it is a reproduction of another photo. I don't know. I can blow up the photo I took with my phone and you can see the lack of detail in the print.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1429/img_7329_crop_0c8cabe4646fb3c8ee15be63d7bd12b0406fa775.jpg
Thank you for that list megan, I will have a look to see if I can find out something from that.

[longer ron]

A side note, pilots preferred the then out of date D model that had the nose as presented in the photo as it allowed a better view for the bombardier when dropping supplies, other aircraft had he standard nose turret. That narrows the photo down to being a B-24D.

http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/B24Index.htm

No I would say it is a B-24H - the large glazed nose is more rounded/bulbous to match the size/shape of the removed/deleted turret,the glazing is very different to the earlier models.
I would say it is a specifically built nose section for better visibility during night ops.
There are a couple of pics of B-24H 'Miss Fitts' in the carpetbaggers sources which clearly shows the more rounded profile of this type of glazed nose.

[megan]

lr, the side note came from a page on the link I provided. Joe Baugher listing has a comment that the Carpetbagger aircraft went for modification following production, perhaps the nose was part of that. The B-24D didn't exactly have a nose that would have enhanced sighting a target at night, low level, possibly in foul weather ie no flat optical panel. Seems from your post the H, or at least some, got the nose as well.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x730/3495596541_1bc25eab7c_b_71dd105247bfef45bd2a711d2eca00fcc53e 50f1.jpg

Edited to add seems their aircraft were a mix, this D had flown 25 bombing mission prior to falling into Carpetbagger hands. Perhaps the chap quoting the preference for the D may have been true at one particular time during his service. Teasing out facts can be difficult.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x957/b_2_8764ec2cec174f51f7f025a443fa2260d42d202f.jpg

[longer ron]

megan - Yep they definitely operated a mixed fleet of various models,I visited the Harrington museum a couple of times many years ago - a very interesting place :)

[longer ron]

I have just taken a quick look at the Harrington website,they have a nice little write up about the setting up of carpetbaggers and their B-24 a/c.

https://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/the-801st-492nd-bomb-group/


The aircraft used by the Carpetbaggers at first were B-24Ds which had a glazed nose section, later B-24H and J models were used, these were fitted with glazed nose sections in place of the Emerson front gun turrets, this modification, together with other changes, being carried out at Burtonwood (UK Depot)

[longer ron]

Interestingly (hopefully) on one of my RAF units we had a C/Tech 'Fairy' (radio/radar) with a fair collection of medals on his best blue and operational para wings on his arm.
I remember during an AOC's inspection in the 70's - the AVM walked past him and did a 'double take',he then just said to Ivor 'Christ you've been around chief' with a grin on his face.
During the war Ivor had been an army sgt working with SOE as a radio op,he was dropped from a Harrington B-24 in Aug 1944 into france and iirc he was awarded the french Croix de Guerre for this op.

[Jhieminga]

I went through the list of B-24s on the site linked to by megan, but was unable to find the particular photo at the top of this thread. I did notice that there were two variations of modified H noses. One as shown in my original photo: http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/B24sBySN/393%2042-50393%20Beverley%20Joy/393-Beverley%20Joy.pdf (scroll down to page four of the PDF for a good view).

The second one is less glasshouse and is more reminiscent of a ball-shaped turret without any guns, see here for one photo that shows it: http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/B24sBySN/693%2042-52693%20Aries/42-52693.pdf (second page in the PDF) and here is another one:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x559/42_52749_lescrappy_285275f66d8e60ffb0afec0b739824307ec2bd29. jpg

It would be interesting to know how many H or J models were modified to the configuration shown in the photo I posted. I have e-mailed the Harrington museum but they are unable to ID anything from my photo.