China recruits former British military pilots

[Low average]

Criticism isn't ignored here...the last 5 PMs will attest to that.

Even though the Chinese government is as corrupt and incompetent as any government out there (probably much more so), they will never allow that to be reported, ever.

I would prefer not to live under the fake impression that my government is perfect, and everybody else is rubbish - but that is the story China spins to its own population and the world. All criticism is crushed. No thanks!

[adminblunty]

There are several high horses missing their riders.

Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?

BV
mmm, 3 days ago I got offered a job on £157k pa, I turned it down because it didn't interest me(ex TG17 SNCO), times have changed Bob. The law of supply and demand applies, if you've got niche in demand skills/knowledge/experience someone will pay handsomely for them. I imagine the RAF isn't going to hire more than 50 pilots this year and the RAF will have a pile of applicants to pick from, if you want to fly do so, if you want to earn a pile of cash you are in the wrong job.

[Low average]

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1583872847977381889?t=Y3gzmizQnly_VWE6mI0Qzg&s=19

Hu Jintao. Ex president. Note the fear.

[Bob Viking]

Did you note the section in brackets that you quoted? The clue to my true sentiments lies there. Of course I know that non-aircrew can earn a fortune as well. If you had to work out a percentage of ex-military folks that can easily walk in to jobs with high 6-figure salaries you might find the pie chart has a large wedge made up of pilots though.

My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.

I’ve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I won’t go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.

I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.

BV

[Asturias56]

I suspect its' not just the money - a lot of people in what the general public consider "exciting" jobs do it for the buzz - and there is definitely a buzz in working overseas in these sort of jobs. Generally they're a lot more dangerous than in the UK or USA etc but that just adds. They aren't boring, form filling desk jobs either.

You see a very similar thing in the oil business where people go off to work for Saudi Aramco - sure the money helps but it isn't everything - the challenges are greater, and you're not one of the crowd at home.

[Mechta]

Top Gun 3: Maverick - Thirty Pieces of Silver
Storyline: With Iceman dead and no one to fight his corner, Maverick finds himself teaching a group of enthusiastic, but seemingly inept, Chinese carrier pilots. Helped by British and French ex-QWIs, Maverick's students finally start to shine through.
In the finale, the Chinese come face to face with Maverick's old Top Gun students over the Spratly Islands. Despite shortcomings of their own aircraft, their understanding of the F-35's vulnerabilities and new found skills allow the Chinese to pull off a decisive victory.

[SASless]

Being no stranger to foreign work for foreign firms and having been contracted to support/train foreign military pilots of some very dodgy governments.....and even having been offered an appointment to a foreign Air Force....I knew where my loyalties lay.....and my paycheck was not the highest priority.

Before passing judgement upon someone it would help to know with specificity what their duties are...what information they are passing along and to whom.

Earlier I made a post where I asked if any of the people in question had two employers....one public and perhaps one not public.

In one period of employment by my own government I participated in the Debrief of Travelers to Foreign Countries of interest to my. government.

So even if not a paid Gig for traveller....most happily cooperated when approached.

In the end....throwing out broad brushed condemnations of the folks without knowing for sure what their exact participation is might be very unfair.

Just suggesting thing might be a bit more complicated than some here seem to consider.

If there has been a patent violation of Terms and Conditions of Military Service by them....that is a separate and much easier matter to decide.

When calling someone a "Traitor" it helps to know what you are are talking about and are basing your opinion upon fact rather than an assumption.

[mopardave]

Did you note the section in brackets that you quoted? The clue to my true sentiments lies there. Of course I know that non-aircrew can earn a fortune as well. If you had to work out a percentage of ex-military folks that can easily walk in to jobs with high 6-figure salaries you might find the pie chart has a large wedge made up of pilots though.

My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.

I’ve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I won’t go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.

I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.

BV

Bob......I don't know you personally but your posts are always informative and balanced. For some reason, I'd have been most surprised if you had gotten involved in anything that has an unpleasant whiff about it. Not sure how these guys will look their mates in the eye if they ever bump into them? A gangs a gang. As for the eroding of conditions of service and real terms salaries, our leaders are world class when it comes to kicking people in the nuts. I was over the moon when my son decided to leave the army back in 2010.....they didn't deserve him. He, on the other hand was so disappointed that his future was very much in the balance in the army. Best thing HE ever did! They should be ashamed...........both politicians and the VSO's who just keep saying yes to them.

[Union Jack]

so what about your submariners then? Can they earn a living helping out the pla-navy?

May I refer you to Post #151, requoted here for your ease of reference:

perish the thought, but i can't help wondering how many recently retired ssbn and ssn commanding officers are updating their cvs!:rolleyes:



Jack

[Flap Track 6]

Can someone please explain why he would do this?

I presume you mean 'why would he ask if he could hold onto his clearance if he went to China for a year or two?'
If he was planning on returning to test flying new military aircraft for the manufacturer or for weapon system trials, he would need at minimum an SC clearance. If you're a civilian test pilot in the defence industry, loss of security clearance would close off all opportunities.

[MENELAUS]

Whilst we’re on the subject of Chinese hegemony, why are we even allowing Tik Tok to function in UK ? Or elsewhere in the Western world. A social media platform bombarding us with advert based ****e about concerned parental and content filters and yet owned by a Beijing company that prevents its own citizens from accessing it ? We’re our own worst enemies.

[fitliker]

Will the training pilots get fancy leather flight jackets like the pilots that flew the hump in WW2 ? Maybe real silk lining ?

[megan]

Perhaps we could go back earlier in time and give them leather jackets as worn by Chennaults Flying Tigers when flying for Chiang Kai-shek against the Japanese.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/574x396/a13_5f0014f22ad00de6b67d3959ed6976cea589e906.jpg

[Asturias56]

"Whilst we’re on the subject of Chinese hegemony, why are we even allowing Tik Tok to function in UK"

because there is no alternative and the kids - who are tomorrows voters- love it?

[MENELAUS]

"Whilst we’re on the subject of Chinese hegemony, why are we even allowing Tik Tok to function in UK"

because there is no alternative and the kids - who are tomorrows voters- love it?


That explains a lot. !!!

[Stratofreighter]

00:00, Sun, Oct 23, 2022 | UPDATED: 00:00, Sun, Oct 23, 2022
...double bluff ? Moles? :bored: :confused:
Former RAF pilots who went to China to train its air force stole secrets for Britain | World | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1686465/RAF-news-china-uk-nato-raf-pilots-british-security-agencies)
Despite mounting concerns in Whitehall, the Government was powerless to end the training scheme because no laws had been broken. But British security agencies did not just sit idly by, sources claim.

In an astounding double-bluff, they approached a small group of these Western pilots who had already signed up for £240,000 contracts and asked them to "wear two hats", sources claim.

The pilots, from a mix of nationalities, were not trained intelligence officers. But, despite being retired from the service for many years, those who were approached agreed to help.
A source described how the UK had "played China at its own game” - and won.
“This was a rather unprecedented situation," he added, confirming that all assets had now left China and the operation was closed.

[Hueymeister]

Worth a read.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/10/23/loyalty-is-a-two-way-street/?fbclid=IwAR04-tHnuA9S7QG_8rKmUU2U_8NtLCJpt1l9dc1vIL3fgC5jT_DyUdhjrA0

[Lonewolf_50]

...double bluff ? Moles? :bored: :confused:
Interesting, but I'll take a grain of salt with that.
Were it a mole operation, I suspect that the (various) UK security services would not be letting that cat out of the bag.
Also, wouldn't that paint a bullseye on the back of every one of them still in China?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Worth a read.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/10/23/loyalty-is-a-two-way-street/?fbclid=IwAR04-tHnuA9S7QG_8rKmUU2U_8NtLCJpt1l9dc1vIL3fgC5jT_DyUdhjrA0

With all due respect, no, it's really not.

Quelle suprise, an article published by a decidedly right-wing libertarian leaning website, from a right-wing libertarian 'comedian' can be summed up as; "...it's all the fault of woke people, as a result it's only fair that they sell their knowledge to the highest bidder, regardless of who the highest bidder is..."

The fact the government knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing isn't a green light to play "what's good for the goose..." The knowledge/skills these pilots are providing to the Chinese could/will cost something far more valuable than money. It could very well cost the lives of their former colleagues.

[Hueymeister]

With all due respect, no, it's really not.


Quelle suprise, an article published by a decidedly right-wing libertarian leaning website, from a right-wing libertarian 'comedian' can be summed up as; "...it's all the fault of woke people, as a result it's only fair that they sell their knowledge to the highest bidder, regardless of who the highest bidder is..."


The fact the government knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing isn't a green light to play "what's good for the goose..." The knowledge/skills these pilots are providing to the Chinese could/will cost something far more valuable than money. It could very well cost the lives of their former colleagues.



Just another point of view..I don't personally agree with all of it, yet the sentiment of some of it I get. The beauty of it all is that we can agree to disagree. Simples.

[flighthappens]

I wonder how many of the UK pers who are relatively relaxed about this, would be as relaxed if members of other 5 eyes nations were performing contract flying training with the Russians at the height of the Cold War….

While it is undoubtedly true that conditions of service in the RAF have degraded over time, this doesn’t justify what has occurred. Denials such as “we handed over nothing tactical” is frankly, not the point. If you make their flying training and/or flight testing more efficient and effective, you’re eroding a western edge against people who the the international community (including the UK, witness where the carrier and recent Typhoon deployments have ended up) may soon end up in a fight.

[Cloudee]

I wonder if this arrest is related.

“A former US military pilot and flight instructor who worked in China was arrested in Australia and faces extradition to the United States, court documents and company records show.”

“Australian Federal Police arrested Daniel Edmund Duggan, 54, on Friday in the rural town of Orange in New South Wales, and he appeared in court there on the same day, according to his lawyer and court records”.“Mr Duggan moved to Australia after a decade in the US military and started a business called Top Gun Tasmania, hiring former US and British military pilots to offer tourists joy-rides in fighter jets, company records show and aviation sources confirmed.

Mr Duggan also flew ex-military aircraft in Australian air shows, three pilots told Reuters.

Top Gun Tasmania's website said Mr Duggan flew Harrier jump jets in the US Marines and was an air combat instructor.

He moved to Beijing in 2014 and soon after sold Top Gun Tasmania, filings in Australia for the company show.“

Mr Duggan's LinkedIn profile said he has been working in Qingdao, China, since 2017 as the managing director of AVIBIZ Limited, described as "a comprehensive aviation consultancy company with a focus on the fast-growing and dynamic Chinese Aviation Industry".

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-25/former-us-military-pilot-who-worked-in-china-arrested-in-austral/101576378

[Mogwi]

I did some “contract” flying in a former Soviet country shortly after the Russians left (and took the windows, frames and all - and the toilet pans) and was able to gain a valuable insight into the Soviet Air Force doctrine. It would not have been as hard as we once thought - as has recently been proven.

Mog

[ChrisJ800]

I wonder if this arrest is related.

“A former US military pilot and flight instructor who worked in China was arrested in Australia and faces extradition to the United States, court documents and company records show.”

“Australian Federal Police arrested Daniel Edmund Duggan, 54, on Friday in the rural town of Orange in New South Wales, and he appeared in court there on the same day, according to his lawyer and court records”.“Mr Duggan moved to Australia after a decade in the US military and started a business called Top Gun Tasmania, hiring former US and British military pilots to offer tourists joy-rides in fighter jets, company records show and aviation sources confirmed.

Mr Duggan also flew ex-military aircraft in Australian air shows, three pilots told Reuters.

Top Gun Tasmania's website said Mr Duggan flew Harrier jump jets in the US Marines and was an air combat instructor.

He moved to Beijing in 2014 and soon after sold Top Gun Tasmania, filings in Australia for the company show.“

Mr Duggan's LinkedIn profile said he has been working in Qingdao, China, since 2017 as the managing director of AVIBIZ Limited, described as "a comprehensive aviation consultancy company with a focus on the fast-growing and dynamic Chinese Aviation Industry".

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-25/former-us-military-pilot-who-worked-in-china-arrested-in-austral/101576378

Intersting. He used to fly a CJ6A Nanchang chinese trainer at Top Gun Tasmania.

[Captain Dart]

More info here from The Drive/The War Zone, a very informative and interesting site:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ex-marine-corps-harrier-pilot-who-worked-in-china-has-been-arrested

[mahogany bob]

A few worrying recent headlines concerning Chinese influence in UK.
I think that the same is happening in NZ, Australia and Africa and elsewhere?

Should we really be allowing our most skilled ex RAF pilots to train a potential enemy??

The biggest surprise in Thursday’s security warning about a Chinese agent seeking to influence British politicians is that it came as a surprise at all. The Chinese Communist Party operates a vast and growing influence operation in Britain, which has pretty much been allowed free rein!

How the Chinese government is buying its way into UK universities.From funding professorships to censoring students, the Chinese state has more influence on British educational establishments than we realise.

In 2019, China and the UK collaborated on 16,267 research papers – up from around 750 in 2000. This amounts to around 11 per cent of the UK’s research output now including Chinese authors – up from just 1 per cent 20 years ago, as indexed in the Web of ScienceTM global citation index

In recent years Britain has gone all-in on Chinese students. More than 140,000 are enrolled in undergraduate or postgraduate courses, up 50% from five years ago.

In 2021, China was the UK's largest import partner and sixth-largest export partner for goods.The UK imported £63.6 billion of goods from China in 2021 (13.3% of all goods imports to the UK) and exported £18.8 billion of goods (5.8% of all goods exports from the UK

[7p3i7lot]

Looks like the US is going after an ex-Marine Harrier pilot in Australia for the same thing.

Former U.S. fighter pilot who worked in China arrested in Australia (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/former-u-s-fighter-pilot-who-worked-in-china-arrested-in-australia/ar-AA13oDad?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a8fcb077696b4d5b8aad1b89fd083d3e)

[ShyTorque]

China don’t really need to invade the U.K. because we’re allowing them to buy it.

[MENELAUS]

China don’t really need to invade the U.K. because we’re allowing them to buy it.

Just take a look at the number of port facilities the PRC ( or their proxies ) own.
Felixstowe. In entirety. Piraeus.
Colombo. Darwin. Incredibly short sighted.
At least Rishi is moving on the Confucius Institutes.

[Asturias56]

OK - the Chinese own Felixstowe - so what happens if they decide to turn it over to the PLA (N). There are probably half a dozen Chinese there - the local police force just turn up and take it off them.

[Wig Wag]

Retired RAF pilots will be prosecuted if they shared state secrets during China flying lessons (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/26/retired-raf-pilots-will-prosecuted-shared-state-secrets-china/)

RAF pilots will be prosecuted if they are found to have shared state secrets during China flying lessons, defence sources have warned. . . . A defence source told The Telegraph that while teaching the discipline of flying was not classified, teaching how to fight was.

“People going to foreign nations to fly is one thing, teaching how to fight is another,” they said, adding that signing the Official Secrets Act binds the signatories for life.

“If evidence was found that they were breaking the OSA we could prosecute,” they said.

Good. Time to get tough.

[Asturias56]

"we could prosecute,"

Headline says will - text says could - that's not the same thing at all Minister

And £250k could buy you a half decent QC - who might ask what various RAF and ex-RAF crew were doing in some other countries

[Wrathmonk]

"we could prosecute,"

Headline says will - text says could - that's not the same thing at all Minister

And £250k could buy you a half decent QC - who might ask what various RAF and ex-RAF crew were doing in some other countries

Nerd mode on….

Any “half-decent QC” is now a “half-decent KC”.

Nerd mode off…

[Wig Wag]

For KC also read King and Country.

Not good enough for these tarts though was it?

[India Four Two]

Intersting. He used to fly a CJ6A Nanchang chinese trainer at Top Gun Tasmania.

What's your point, Chris? Many people fly, or have flown Nanchangs, including me. :)

[ChrisJ800]

What's your point, Chris? Many people fly, or have flown Nanchangs, including me. :)
i bumped into him in Tasmania around 10 years ago and he was flying the Nanchang a lot. Ive never seen another in Oz but plenty of Chipmunks. I lived in Tasmania for 18 years so just offering a local observation. He seemed like an extremely enthusiastic aviator.

[megan]

44 Nanchangs in Oz at the moment, 53 Chipmunks.

[Low average]

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-sent-raf-pilots-to-teach-chinese-counterparts-and-allowed-students-to-attend-british-military-colleges-12732462
Britain's Ministry of Defence sent serving Royal Air Force pilots to China to teach a course to their Chinese counterparts and allowed Chinese nationals to study at UK military colleges, Sky News can reveal. Up to four frontline pilots took part in the 'Aviation English Course' in Beijing that ran in 2016, while at least three Chinese nationals have gone through basic officer training at the RAF's college at Cranwell in Lincolnshire.

[The Helpful Stacker]

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-sent-raf-pilots-to-teach-chinese-counterparts-and-allowed-students-to-attend-british-military-colleges-12732462

​​​​​I'm not sure this news is quite the zinger some may feel it is.

MoD approved/arranged =/= private individuals potentially breaching OSA for money.

[Asturias56]

"while at least three Chinese nationals have gone through basic officer training at the RAF's college at Cranwell"

Thank god for that - we can be assured the PLA (AF) will have SOME standards at least.

[JulieAndrews]

Chinese are currently providing 'free labour' for a UK Oil & Gas operator whom are paid to use them as co-pilots. Please don't make the mistake and think that HKGFS are not under Chinese influence and control - the situation is way past that conversation ;-)

[ShyTorque]

HKGFS pilots pass on their knowledge as required…..

[megan]

Back in the 80's our offshore helo organisation in Oz had Chinese copilots come fly with us to see how it was done, part of our oil company currying favour I think, best part was our C & T guy had flown P-51's and Meteors in the Korea shindig and the Chinese den mother had flown Migs, they spent some time comparing notes.

[JulieAndrews]

ShyTorque
how many boat interceptions do you think occur off Peterhead 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[chopper2004]

I wonder if this arrest is related.

“A former US military pilot and flight instructor who worked in China was arrested in Australia and faces extradition to the United States, court documents and company records show.”

“Australian Federal Police arrested Daniel Edmund Duggan, 54, on Friday in the rural town of Orange in New South Wales, and he appeared in court there on the same day, according to his lawyer and court records”.“Mr Duggan moved to Australia after a decade in the US military and started a business called Top Gun Tasmania, hiring former US and British military pilots to offer tourists joy-rides in fighter jets, company records show and aviation sources confirmed.

Mr Duggan also flew ex-military aircraft in Australian air shows, three pilots told Reuters.

Top Gun Tasmania's website said Mr Duggan flew Harrier jump jets in the US Marines and was an air combat instructor.

He moved to Beijing in 2014 and soon after sold Top Gun Tasmania, filings in Australia for the company show.“

Mr Duggan's LinkedIn profile said he has been working in Qingdao, China, since 2017 as the managing director of AVIBIZ Limited, described as "a comprehensive aviation consultancy company with a focus on the fast-growing and dynamic Chinese Aviation Industry".

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-25/former-us-military-pilot-who-worked-in-china-arrested-in-austral/101576378

And he finished his mil career as exchange with the Armada flying the EAV-8B Harrier II

https://topgunaustralia.com/about-us/

The other business partners / team ...is one former Marine Corps Hornet driver transferred to RAAF and finished his career as a Hornet driver too, then theres a former Tonka driver

I wonder if they have been implicated...

cheers

[visibility3miles]

Per The Guardian today, Dugan “was arrested at Washington’s request, although US authorities have refused to say more and the charges remain sealed.”

He will “‘vigorously’ fight his extraction to the US and is seeking the intervention of an intelligence watchdog, his lawyer says.”

[Bbtengineer]

What I do think is that the Western approach to China is evolving.

Whilst much maligned and often with reason, former US President Trump led a charge on this and I think appropriately.

Now we are questioning our industrial strategy and commercial approaches in ways that we didn’t previously, and apparently also the types of engagements and information exchanges being discussed here.

Not before time and what was everybody thinking?

For my own part I think it’s highly appropriate to close the barn door now even if only to prevent further horses from bolting.

That said what’s already done is done. In those cases, crying and spilt milk springs to mind.

What we have to do now is stop doing it any more and deal with the consequences.

[streamlinetwo]

Really?
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...

Actually, I have friends (all ex-military pilots) who have been there for the past few years. They're contracted through a US company. They make $32,000 a month.
With many benefits...

[NutLoose]

One ex mil in US jailed.

A former US military helicopter pilot has been jailed for selling secrets to the Chinese government.

Shapour Moinian, 67, from San Diego, California (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/california/index.html), was jailed for 20 months after he was paid thousands of dollars by the Chinese to pass them confidential information.

The pilot-turned-defense contractor became the latest in a string of Chinese spies uncovered in the military.

He handed over US secrets for Chinese money to the tune of $32,000 over at least three years.

Just last month the Biden administration unveiled charges against 13 Chinese spies in an explosive press conference while accusing Beijing (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/beijing/index.html) of 'interfering with the rights and freedoms' of Americans.

Attorney General Merrick Garland led a press conference announcing the law enforcement actions alongside Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco, FBI (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/fbi/index.html) Director Christopher Wray, and officials from the Eastern District of New York and New Jersey (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/new-jersey/index.html) attorneys offices.


Retired US Army helicopter pilot Moinian pleaded pleaded guilty earlier this year to selling classified aviation technology secrets to China (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/china/index.html) for up to $32,000.

He admitted in federal court to acting as an agent for the Chinese government and providing President Xi Jinping (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/xi-jinping/index.html)'s regime secret aviation-related information from his defense-contractor employers.

Moinian also pleaded guilty to making related false statements during national security background checks.

The former US Army helicopter pilot was born and raised in Iran but immigrated to the US when he was 21.

Less than five years after he arrived he joined the military and served in the army from 1977 to 2000 in the United States, Germany, and South Korea.

As part of the plea agreement, federal prosecutors recommended a sentence of no more than 20 months.

Moinian traveled to Hong Kong in 2017 where he allegedly agreed to provide information related to multiple types of aircraft designed in the US in exchange for approximately $10,000.

At that meeting and all subsequent meetings Monian knew those attending were employed by the Chinese government, according to his plea agreement.

When he returned to the US he began gathering aviation-related materials, transferring it to a memory stick.

In September that year, he met with Chinese government officials and gave them the hard drive, which included proprietary information from a cleared defense contractor (CDC).

He then arranged for payment through the South Korean bank account of his stepdaughter.

Moinian told his stepdaughter that these funds were payment for his consulting work overseas and instructed her to transfer the funds to him in multiple transactions.

Moinian also received a cell phone and other equipment from these individuals to communicate with them and aid in the electronic transfer of materials and information.

At the end of March 2018, Moinian traveled to Bali and met with these same officials again. Later that year, he began working at another CDC.

During this timeframe, the same people in China transferred thousands of dollars into the South Korean bank account of Moinian's stepdaughter, who subsequently wired the funds to Moinian in multiple transactions.

In August 2019, Moinian traveled again to Hong Kong and met with these same officials where he was again paid approximately $22,000 in cash for his services. Moinian and his wife smuggled this cash back into the United States.

According to his plea agreement, Moinian also admitted that he lied on his government background questionnaires in July 2017, and March 2020, when he falsely stated that did not have any close or continuing contacts with foreign nationals and that no foreign national had offered him a job.

After his time in the Army, he worked for various cleared defense contractors in the United States – including in San Diego – as well as the Department of Defense.

'Cleared' is a term that indicates a contractor is permitted to work on projects that involve classified information.

According to his plea agreement, while Moinian was working for a cleared defense contractor, or CDC, on various aviation projects used by the U.S. military and U.S. intelligence agencies, he was contacted by an individual in China who claimed to be working for a technical recruiting company.

This person offered Moinian the opportunity to consult for the aviation industry in China.


Ex-helicopter pilot jailed for selling secrets to the Chinese government for thousands of dollars (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/us/ex-helicopter-pilot-jailed-for-selling-secrets-to-the-chinese-government-for-thousands-of-dollars/ar-AA13Shyi?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=819cc6bbc016487ca0468fc644e8ebe7)

[Asturias56]

"He handed over US secrets for Chinese money to the tune of $32,000 over at least three years."

Wow $10,000 a year - he'd have been better off working at McDonalds

[NutLoose]

More

The governments of France, Australia and Canada have joined the U.K. investigating whether their retired military pilots are helping to train Chinese pilots. All three powers have warned their former employees, all of whom swore an oath to defend their respective country, that helping the People’s Liberation Army gain the upper hand over Western allies likely makes them criminals.
Earlier this week, the U.K. confirmed it was getting in touch with about 30 ex-RAF pilots who had been approached by a South African company with an offer of about $250,000 a year to train the PLA’s finest. France, Australia and Canada have not yet confirmed their former personnel have taken the bait but they are looking into it. “We are aware of these reports, and we are looking into this further with federal partners,” Canada’s Department of National Defence told Global News (https://globalnews.ca/news/9216877/china-military-air-force-recruiting-canadians/). “The Security of Information Act applies to both current and former members, and non-compliance with the Act could result in serious consequences,” said Department of National Defence spokesperson Daniel Le Bouthillier.



https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/chinese-pilot-recruitment-probe-spreads/

[Mogwi]

There seems to be some general misunderstanding of the OSA. There has never been a requirement to “sign” the OSA any more than you are required to “sign” the Road Traffic Act before you drive a car. Both are Acts of Parliament and apply to all UK citizens (actually subjects!) whether you are aware of them or not. If you transgress, you can be done and ignorance of the Act is no defence in law.

I was never asked to “sign” anything despite having TS and Cosmic TS clearance on a number of occasions and being in charge of things that make veeery loud noises. What actually happened was “indoctrination” and “de-indoctrination”, which pointed out the importance of not circulating the info you were about to/had just seen to any Tom, Dick or Harriet.

I am with the majority of guys here who think it unwise for recently current FJ guys (other streams are available) to talk tactics with anyone who doesn’t “need to know”. When I was working with some ex-Soviet state FJ pilots in the Eastern bloc, I was specifically (if rather clandestinely) asked to talk basic tactics with them because they were about to apply for NATO membership. I had a pretty poor reception until I beat the CO in 1v1 - then they started to listen!

Ah, happy days!

Mog

[Barksdale Boy]

There seems to be some general misunderstanding of the OSA. There has never been a requirement to “sign” the OSA any more than you are required to “sign” the Road Traffic Act before you drive a car. Both are Acts of Parliament and apply to all UK citizens (actually subjects!) whether you are aware of them or not. If you transgress, you can be done and ignorance of the Act is no defence in law.

I was never asked to “sign” anything despite having TS and Cosmic TS clearance on a number of occasions and being in charge of things that make veeery loud noises. What actually happened was “indoctrination” and “de-indoctrination”, which pointed out the importance of not circulating the info you were about to/had just seen to any Tom, Dick or Harriet.

I am with the majority of guys here who think it unwise for recently current FJ guys (other streams are available) to talk tactics with anyone who doesn’t “need to know”. When I was working with some ex-Soviet state FJ pilots in the Eastern bloc, I was specifically (if rather clandestinely) asked to talk basic tactics with them because they were about to apply for NATO membership. I had a pretty poor reception until I beat the CO in 1v1 - then they started to listen!

Ah, happy days!

Mog
Mogwi
Your first two paragraphs are spot on.

[happydolphins]

Money is not the answer (with regards to retention). Or so we keep being told.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Money is not the answer (with regards to retention). Or so we keep being told.

Money is the sincerest form of flattery….

[NutLoose]

There seems to be some general misunderstanding of the OSA. There has never been a requirement to “sign” the OSA any more than you are required to “sign” the Road Traffic Act before you drive a car. Both are Acts of Parliament and apply to all UK citizens (actually subjects!) whether you are aware of them or not. If you transgress, you can be done and ignorance of the Act is no defence in law.

I was never asked to “sign” anything despite having TS and Cosmic TS clearance on a number of occasions and being in charge of things that make veeery loud noises. What actually happened was “indoctrination” and “de-indoctrination”, which pointed out the importance of not circulating the info you were about to/had just seen to any Tom, Dick or Harriet.

I am with the majority of guys here who think it unwise for recently current FJ guys (other streams are available) to talk tactics with anyone who doesn’t “need to know”. When I was working with some ex-Soviet state FJ pilots in the Eastern bloc, I was specifically (if rather clandestinely) asked to talk basic tactics with them because they were about to apply for NATO membership. I had a pretty poor reception until I beat the CO in 1v1 - then they started to listen!

Ah, happy days!

Mog

Odd that, I had to sign it at the CIO at attestation

Although you say basic tactics, surely if you have been taught and had them drummed into you until they were second nature, then those people by the very act of flying and teaching these people will be possibly subconsciously passing on those tactics by the mere act of training them?

..

[Old_Slartibartfast]

What was signed was almost certainly just a chit to say that you understood your obligations under the OSA. There has never been any requirement to "sign" the OSA. As Mogwi rightly says, if you worked on anything above Secret you were "read in" to the topic, and this then expired when your time of doing work related to that topic came to an end. The only other bit of paper I signed was when I retired, just a reminder that I understood that I was still bound by the same provisions that had applied when working after retirement.

A separate issue is that almost all classified information has a shelf life, beyond which it is either declassified formally, or effectively declassified because it's already in the public domain. One example that springs to mind is WE.177. Shrouded in secrecy for years, until one of the military mags published a chapter and verse info article on the weapons capability, design, even, IIRC, a cutaway drawing, some time before it was officially withdrawn from service. For a time I used one of the S&A key cover tools as a keyring, interesting conversation piece . . .

[ShyTorque]

I’ve been required to sign the OSA “chit” five times. I got the message after first time, but there we go.

[NutLoose]

What was signed was almost certainly just a chit to say that you understood your obligations under the OSA. There has never been any requirement to "sign" the OSA. As Mogwi rightly says, if you worked on anything above Secret you were "read in" to the topic, and this then expired when your time of doing work related to that topic came to an end. The only other bit of paper I signed was when I retired, just a reminder that I understood that I was still bound by the same provisions that had applied when working after retirement.

A separate issue is that almost all classified information has a shelf life, beyond which it is either declassified formally, or effectively declassified because it's already in the public domain. One example that springs to mind is WE.177. Shrouded in secrecy for years, until one of the military mags published a chapter and verse info article on the weapons capability, design, even, IIRC, a cutaway drawing, some time before it was officially withdrawn from service. For a time I used one of the S&A key cover tools as a keyring, interesting conversation piece . . .

Or when the details of the accident we had at Bruggen were released confirming we had them there.

[SpazSinbad]

13 Dec 2022 Former U.S. Pilot Helped Chinese Aviators Train for Aircraft Carriers, Indictment Says - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/former-u-s-pilot-helped-chinese-aviators-train-for-aircraft-carriers-indictment-says-11670936658)

14 Dec 2022 T-2 Buckeye was exported to South Africa to help train Chinese carrier pilots
https://alert5.com/2022/12/14/t-2-buckeye-was-exported-to-south-africa-to-help-train-chinese-carrier-pilots/#more-96263
"The U.S. warrant and 2017 indictment of a former U.S. Marine Corps Harrier pilot accused of helping China to train its military pilots have been unsealed by the District of Columbia court. According to information in the indictment of Daniel Duggan, the U.S. government had allowed a T-2 Buckeye trainer to be exported to South Africa due to false information given.... U.S. prosecutors said that the T-2 was exported to a South Africa flight academy. Dugan is accused of providing training to Chinese pilots at the academy from 2010 to 2012...."

[dctyke]

Or when the details of the accident we had at Bruggen were released confirming we had them there.


hardly a secret to every German bowser driver at Laarbruch and Bruggen, sometimes on exercise the load team and convey had to wait for them to finish refuelling!

[minigundiplomat]

Many of them served the crown for many years on low pay to enter commercial aviation only to find the government shut down their entire livelihood due to a bad cold, at which point they just shrugged as people lost incomes and jobs. Nobody owes UK PLC anything these days. We have the best politicians money can buy, why not the best flight instructors?

[cynicalint]

. We have the best politicians money can buy, ?
Mini,
are you suggesting our politicians can be bought?

[minigundiplomat]

Mini,
are you suggesting our politicians can be bought?

are you suggesting they can’t?

[chopper2004]

13 Dec 2022 Former U.S. Pilot Helped Chinese Aviators Train for Aircraft Carriers, Indictment Says - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/former-u-s-pilot-helped-chinese-aviators-train-for-aircraft-carriers-indictment-says-11670936658)

14 Dec 2022 T-2 Buckeye was exported to South Africa to help train Chinese carrier pilots
https://alert5.com/2022/12/14/t-2-buckeye-was-exported-to-south-africa-to-help-train-chinese-carrier-pilots/#more-96263
"The U.S. warrant and 2017 indictment of a former U.S. Marine Corps Harrier pilot accused of helping China to train its military pilots have been unsealed by the District of Columbia court. According to information in the indictment of Daniel Duggan, the U.S. government had allowed a T-2 Buckeye trainer to be exported to South Africa due to false information given.... U.S. prosecutors said that the T-2 was exported to a South Africa flight academy. Dugan is accused of providing training to Chinese pilots at the academy from 2010 to 2012...."

Perhaps this gent was the si-fu (sorry its Cantonese for master / mentor) for the first batch of aviators to join the flat top club.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUj6H8gyrvM

It has not been too long since they started trapping the wire and calling the ball.

cheers

[SpazSinbad]

Back in 2009 PLAN was talking to Brazil about training carrier pilots aboard the big SAO :} - not sure what became of it. A reference still alive: 23 May 2009
http://informationdissemination.********.com/2009/05/more-on-varyag-news-from-brazil.html

ttp://informationdissemination.bl-A-gspot.com/2009/05/more-on-varyag-news-from-brazil.html (http://informationdissemination.bl-A-gspot.com/2009/05/more-on-varyag-news-from-brazil.html)

ADD the 'missing beginning H' and change '-A-' to 'o' for working URL.

[Lonewolf_50]

Interesting tidbit, SpazSinbad.
Back in the 00's, the USN was still training some Brazilian carrier pilots in T-45s (IIRC, TW-1 in Meridian Mississippi).

[SpazSinbad]

That's me "the interestin' NavAv tidbitter" :} with Naval Aviation News Jan-Feb 1988 top of page 6 LSO School training furriners: https://www.history.navy.mil/content/dam/nhhc/research/histories/naval-aviation/Naval%20Aviation%20News/1980/pdf/jf88.pdf

[SpazSinbad]

NAS Meridian TRAwingONE trains furriners

USN LSO Newsletter Dec 2013: [url]http://hrana.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/PaddlesQuarterlyDecember2013.pdf [no workee]
“...We travelled to Brazil; I know everyone feels bad for us for that one, thanks for your pity. What we saw there was a group of naval Aviators, no different from us. They’ve all been through our pipeline and have at least 10 traps on our boats, but these guys have no working aircraft carrier to continue their careers and they’ve been waiting for it for over 8 years. They only have 2 lenses, one on the ship and one at their FCLP field. They plan to make do with what they’ve got and they are continuing to look our way for some LSO guidance and support when the opportunities arise to get some deck time. It was great to head down to the Southern Hemisphere, wave some A-4s, navigate some head high faces,....”

VT-7 Eagles: http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/tw1/vt7/

NAS Kingsville furriners: https://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2007/april/i_ids04.pdf

[SpazSinbad]

Going Brazilian, Navy Style [2004] http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2004/saopaulo/saopaulo.htm

"...When the A-4s entered service, the Marinha do Brasil had no experience with jet operations on a carrier. To help bring the pilots, maintenance crew and deck handling personnel up to speed, Kay & Associates Inc, based in Arlington Heights, Illinois, was hired in a consulting role. Commander Francis, USN (Ret.), is one of the last remaining advisors on board the carrier, serves as landing signal officer. Under his tutelage the former helicopter pilots shown great progress in learning to operate on board the smallest carrier for conventional aircraft in the world, with the narrowest and shortest runway.

The first A-4 pilots were recruited from the helicopter squadrons and sent to Uruguay and Argentina for basic training in the T-34 Mentor (future A-4 pilots will start their training with the Brazilian air force). They then traveled to NAS Meridian, Missouri, for carrier training with Training Squadron 7 in the T-45 Goshawk. Brazil’s first Skyhawk pilot became the last pilot to earn his wings on the TA-4J at NAS Meridian, and landed the first A-4 on São Paulo in July 2001. During a two-week training cruise in September 2002, the fifth since the ship entered service, the total of qualified jet pilots reached eight...."

[Mogwi]

hardly a secret to every German bowser driver at Laarbruch and Bruggen, sometimes on exercise the load team and convey had to wait for them to finish refuelling!

I pitched up at low-level one afternoon, as enemy air for an exercise at Brüggen. Saw a long convoy of flashing blue lights on the taxiway from about 2 miles out and pickled 3 x exercise CBUs on them. Massive embarrassment!

I suggested that it might be better if they turned the blue lights off on the escorts when moving the weapons!!

Tee hee!

Mog

[SASless]

Were the refuellers wearing Hi-Vis Vests as well?

[Lonewolf_50]

That's me "the interestin' NavAv tidbitter" :} with Naval Aviation News Jan-Feb 1988 top of page 6 LSO School training furriners: https://www.history.navy.mil/content/dam/nhhc/research/histories/naval-aviation/Naval%20Aviation%20News/1980/pdf/jf88.pdf Nice mustache. :ok:

[SpazSinbad]

USN LSO Mustachio.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1039x774/usnmustachiolso1988_5dbb99339c2060e071a4b529577ce9c10c354bc3 .jpg

[Tartiflette Fan]

https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/fuer-horrende-gehaelter-bilden-ex-bundeswehr-piloten-jetzt-chinesische-soldaten-aus_id_195396848.html

Article about Bundeswehr pilots training the Chinese on Qiqihar airbase in Heilongjiang province. This supposedly started in 2013 when a certain Alexander H. ( normal German practice just to give initial only ) retired at the age of 41 moved to China. He is working with Lode-Tech, a company owned by Su Bin, who had previously run an aerospace company in Canada. He was arrested in 2014 and confessed that he had been spying for China for six years, collecting aerospace information ( strangely there is no report of any punishment )

There is no German law preventing this, but a parliamentary sub-committee is now reviewing the situation.

[Less Hair]

It is unlawful to disclose military secrets they might have been sworn in before. So there IS a law preventing this. This is why Bundeswehr's "MAD" military investigation service is said to be already probing the case.

[ORAC]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/17/raf-veterans-training-chinese-military-face-prosecution/

Ex-RAF officers face prosecution if they train Chinese pilots

RAF veterans training the Chinese military will face prosecution for sharing tactics with a foreign power, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) (https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/20/ministry-of-defence-clashes-with-contractor-over-costs/)has said.

Former service personnel who train the militaries of UK competitors will be “pursued and brought to justice”, Grant Shapps (https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/31/grant-shapps-defence-secretary-army-cuts/), the Defence Secretary, said.

Last October, the MoD issued a rare security alert after it emerged that a number of former RAF, Royal Navy and Army pilots had been training the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force.

The pilots were contracted through a South African company after being offered salaries of around £250,000. It was reported that about 30 had moved to China to provide the training.

The revelation prompted fears that former British pilots were helping the Chinese to understand Western tactics (https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/09/parliamentary-researcher-arrested-suspicion-spying-china), potentially equipping the People’s Liberation Army with knowledge about shooting down the planes of Britain and its allies.

The MoD has now said former Armed Forces personnel who train foreign militaries can expect to be prosecuted under new offences within the National Security Act (https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/07/11/china-blocked-takeovers-under-new-national-security-act/), which became law in July.

Specifically, the act includes an offence of “obtaining or disclosing protected information” and defines “information” as including tactics, techniques and procedures.

The MoD said if pilots were suspected of sharing sensitive information with foreign powers it would pass the details to the police to investigate.

Mr Shapps said: “Anyone found to be acting against the UK’s interests by training our competitors’ militaries can now expect to be pursued and brought to justice.

“The Government has acted decisively following the identification of this threat, and has made rapid changes to legislation to help shut it down.”

The MoD said it believed that the adverse publicity from its security alert was effective in persuading the pilots to reconsider their work and to discourage other former troops from taking part.….

[RAFEngO74to09]

Official UK MOD PR here:

Former Armed Forces personnel training foreign militaries could be prosecuted under National Security Act - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/former-armed-forces-personnel-training-foreign-militaries-could-be-prosecuted-under-national-security-act))

[Ninthace]

A National Security Act sounds like a bit of a catch all piece of legislation a government could use against anyone doing anything that displaced the then administration. Don’t Russia, China, Iran et al already use something similar to silence opponents?

[downsizer]

This would be fairlay difficult to prove in court surely?

[Mogwi]

Personally, I am glad to see the UK taking this seriously. I speak as one who, as a recent civvy, introduced pilots of a former Soviet-ruled state to the NATO way of operating - with approval from UK Gov. I was amazed at how bad and sclerotic the Soviet air defence tactics were when I started working with them. For instance, they couldn’t see the point of having a wingman in a fight because they got in the way! It took me beating their CO in 1v1 doggers to make them take me seriously. Luckily, he managed to recover from the spin by only 3000’ below base-height!

Admittedly things will have moved on a bit from there but I am still quite sure that our oriental friends are decades behind modern Western thinking, when it comes to employing air power - and I believe that we should endeavour to keep it that way.

Mog

[Asturias56]

who needs a National Security Act?

that bleeding hearted Liberal Dr. Hendrik Verwoerd always said he'd be happy to scrap the whole of S Africa's security legislation if he could get the UK Official Secrets Act and the Defence of the Realm Act.

[Ninthace]

The Official Secrets Act is in itself a fairly blunt instrument but surely sufficient to beat any ex RAF pilot with, as a signature lasts for life.

[SLXOwft]

I think section 2 of the OSA 1989 covers it (and to save anyone else the bother, our signatures were obtained as a reminder but the acts apply with or without one)

Defence.

(1)A person who is or has been a Crown servant or government contractor is guilty of an offence if without lawful authority he makes a damaging disclosure of any information, document or other article relating to defence which is or has been in his possession by virtue of his position as such.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) above a disclosure is damaging if—

(a)it damages the capability of, or of any part of, the armed forces of the Crown to carry out their tasks or leads to loss of life or injury to members of those forces or serious damage to the equipment or installations of those forces; or

(b)otherwise than as mentioned in paragraph (a) above, it endangers the interests of the United Kingdom abroad, seriously obstructs the promotion or protection by the United Kingdom of those interests or endangers the safety of British citizens abroad; or

(c)it is of information or of a document or article which is such that its unauthorised disclosure would be likely to have any of those effects.

[rattman]

Australia is bringing legislation, former military or defence public servants will need permission if outside of the 5 eyes. Up to 20 year sentence if found guilty

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/defence-veterans-to-face-20-years-jail-for-unauthorised-foreign-military-training-20230913-p5e4d3.html

[Asturias56]

There is a problem with draconian sentencing for security offences tho'. If you're not in a hot war or its been years since one you find re authorities use the laws to on relatively small fry and often on minor offences to avoid some political embarrassment.

After a while the juries cotton on and people are let go even tho the evidence is pretty clear- unfortunately it occasionally means that those who should be inside escape.