China recruits former British military pilots

[wondering]

China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots in 'threat to UK interests'https://news.sky.com/story/chinas-armed-forces-recruiting-dozens-of-british-ex-military-pilots-in-threat-to-uk-interests-12723395

[WB627]

Doesn't the Official Secrets Act prevent the disclosure of sensitive information to a foreign power?

[Wokkafans]

Lengthy Twitter thread on this here:

https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1582144939567116288?s=20&t=pK8oLdNwVRJa-sCciVm3Og


https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1582144939567116288?s=20&t=pK8oLdNwVRJa-sCciVm3Og

[tartare]

Really?
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...

[rudestuff]

Really?
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
Enemy?

[jolihokistix]

A potential enemy.

[Lookleft]

Thats the problem. Is China an enemy or just a country with an aggressive foreign policy? Don't forget that the Me109 prototype flew with a Kestrel engine and the MiG 15 was developed around the copy of the RR Nene which was provided to the USSR. Fast jet pilots have been going to Saudi Arabia for years even though there is a suggestion of official support for the September 11 operation. Personally I don't think it will make much difference because they will be trying to teach pilots indoctrinated in CCP culture to fly with a Western mindset. It could also be unofficially sanctioned as a way of getting intel on the PLAF way of doing business.

[70 Mustang]

how would China know, until too late, if these instructors were intentionally teaching them the very worst way to respond to "Western" fighter jet tactics, whilst the "Western" fighter jet tactics are being changed after an eyes on examination of current Chinese fighter jet tactics?

[Bob Viking]

Money is not the answer (with regards to retention). Or so we keep being told.

BV

[Dogma]

The thought of the UK and Allied defence industry being so poor and lacking in opportunities that ex Fast Jet instructors would go and work in South Africa for the CCP Chinese makes the stomach turn

what a disappointing situation if true. The irony that some of the old guard wouldn’t join BALPA because Unions were a nod to communism

[Bob Viking]

Who says they’re working in South Africa? Some of them may have been recruited by an agency based there, but I think you’ll find the flying takes place a long way North and East of South Africa.

BV

[Imagegear]

I suspect they are compensating for pension theft.

IG

[PapaDolmio]

Traitors......off with their heads.

[Asturias56]

One official said some 30 mainly ex-fast jet but also some helicopter pilots - lured by annual salaries of around £240,000 - are currently in China (https://news.sky.com/topic/china-5869) training pilots for the People's Liberation Army, in what a defence analyst described as a stunning breach of security.

The situation is so grave, the Ministry of Defence's Defence Intelligence service on Tuesday issued a "threat alert" to warn serving and former military personnel against such approaches.

China is using third-party head-hunters, including a company based in South Africa, to target personnel, the western official said.

The official named the company as the Test Flying Academy of South Africa, though stressed it had no connection with the South African government.

[dead_pan]

how would China know, until too late, if these instructors were intentionally teaching them the very worst way to respond to "Western" fighter jet tactics, whilst the "Western" fighter jet tactics are being changed after an eyes on examination of current Chinese fighter jet tactics?

Indeed - a gold-plated opportunity to get first hand intel on their capabilities, intentions, morale etc, not to mention the possibility of recruiting a few assets of our own.

[melmothtw]

Doesn't the Official Secrets Act prevent the disclosure of sensitive information to a foreign power?

According to the reports, the Official Secrets Act hasn't been broken in these cases - seems they're passing on their personal expertise rather than technical knowledge of specific sensitive systems.

[Wrathmonk]

Who says they’re working in South Africa? Some of them may have been recruited by an agency based there, but I think you’ll find the flying takes place a long way North and East of South Africa.

BV

You seem very well informed….and didn’t you just leave the RAF….😁

[melmothtw]

A potential enemy.

If not 'enemy', then certainly a 'threat' https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/11/uk-to-designate-china-a-threat-in-hawkish-foreign-policy-shift

[Soab]

What's the penalty for treason? Hanging or firing squad?

[Asturias56]

Bound over for £ 200 and 2 years. Or 100 hours of community service. But you get a book deal out of it

Formally:-
A person convicted of treason is liable to imprisonment for life or for any shorter term.[64] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason_in_the_United_Kingdom#cite_note-65) A whole life tariff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_life_tariff) may be imposed for the gravest offences

the Truss rabble were talking of bringing in a revised Treason Act but given the Braverman would be drafting it is unlikely to pass - people are squeamish about burning people at the stake these days

[Bob Viking]

Those of us that leave or plan to leave are fully aware of ALL the opportunities and we make our choices according to our own personal values and requirements. I was aware of China but opted for somewhere else (that’s not to say I was guaranteed a job there by any means). I won’t judge anyone that did go that way though.

BV

[melmothtw]

What's the penalty for treason? Hanging or firing squad?

What is treason? The UK government gave the Soviets the Rolls-Royce jet engine technology that they used to power the MiG-15. What's good for the goose...

[Wrathmonk]

Those of us that leave or plan to leave are fully aware of ALL the opportunities and we make our choices according to our own personal values and requirements. I was aware of China but opted for somewhere else (that’s not to say I was guaranteed a job there by any means). I won’t judge anyone that did go that way though.

BV

Clearly misplaced humour by me….hey ho.

I wonder whose personal values and judgement were such that they informed the authorities of this potential for conflict of interests?

Strange, in the good old days the newspapers would have referred to these pilots as mercenaries.

[Bob Viking]

I understood the humour. I didn’t mean to come across all serious and sanctimonious. My bad!

BV

[Glass Half Empty]

personally, I think they are traitors - end of story

[Wig Wag]

I leapt out of bed when I heard this. How sad that this has come to pass.

I recall the late, great Geoffrey Wellum saying that the cadets he met on his visits to Cranwell were 'right out of the top drawer'.

On the one hand I am glad that he is not alive to hear that the inheritors of the legacy of the Few have sold their country out by flying for China.

On the other hand I would have loved to have heard what he had to say about ex military pilots working for the Chinese. I have just heard Nick Robinson on the BBC Today Programme ask if they are they traitors. The public will surely think them so.

I recall swearing my allegiance to Queen and Country on the Holy Bible at Cranwell. I never forgot it and would never go back on the deal.

We have just seen the most patriotic demonstration of faith in our country with the splendid Queen's funeral and few of us will forget the sight of the Guards, the most loyal of soldiers, acting as pallbearers.

These pilots are utterly selfish and utterly naive with it. China has been remarkably successful at infiltrating every level of our society in ways too numerous to mention. The Confucius Institute has found a place in many British Universities not least the Institute of Education in London.

Something is seriously wrong with our culture and values and this country needs to wake up pretty quickly to all the threats.

In the meantime what to do about these pilots? The BBC have just broadcast that a Bill will be fast tracked through Parliament to deal with the problem. I don't think we need these pilots back here and I don't think any airline needs to employ them. I also don't want my taxes funding their pensions.

[Courtney Mil]

It is interesting that all the media reports on this are using EXACTLY the same quotes, which would suggest a single source that no one has been able to identify or even give a hint about. Some one is causing trouble here. I also wonder if this has anything to do with the current popularity of the DCS “championships”.
Maybe SpazSinbad is selling off his vast experience from his 600 hours of A-4 flying from 40 years ago.

[Cornish Jack]

Integrity and moral values derive (among other sources) from those exhibited in the 'top' echelons of society ... so no surprises there, then !
In more practical considerations, these grubby individuals have taken advantage of a hugely expensive training regime which, not only cost them nothing, but for which they were more than adequately paid.
Compare this with the self-financing endeavours of those who, on attaining paid employment have to repay part or all of their training costs, shows the greed-driven antics of these creatures.for what it is :yuk:

[kriskross]

Reminds me of the old joke when instructing potential 'non-friendly' nations, that the best form of evasive action was a 30 degree banked turn to the right.

[Bob Viking]

It’s great of you to pass judgment so swiftly and we are all entitled to our own opinions. However, you are clearly comparing the lived experiences of past generations and subsequent generations. Do you remember the (distant now it seems) era of immense prosperity where people were able to build up a comfortable existence and a pilot’s salary could give you an excellent lifestyle? Well that is long gone. The reason people now look further afield is because our senior officers think just like you and cannot equate their glorified existence as a junior pilot with the reality that now faces our current crop. Poor pay, poor military housing, minimal chances of getting a decent step on the housing ladder and barely enough disposable income for a family holiday at Butlins let alone anywhere more exotic.

When put against this background the idea of securing your family’s future by working overseas becomes harder to resist.

You call them traitors. I say that’s business. The RAF made it very clear to us all during the 2010 SDSR that we were entirely disposable and they have shown an increasing tendency to operate like a business. Welcome to the open market.

BV

[Ewan Whosearmy]

how would China know, until too late, if these instructors were intentionally teaching them the very worst way to respond to "Western" fighter jet tactics, whilst the "Western" fighter jet tactics are being changed after an eyes on examination of current Chinese fighter jet tactics?

There is a strong belief in certain quarters that China has compromised a great deal of SECRET level operational information, to include western fast jet tactics, techniques and procedures. They have hoardes of hackers who try and sometimes succeed in breaching SECRET internet systems like the American SIPRNET.

In short, they don't need anyone to give them the secrets - they need people to help them build the core skills and competencies to execute their own gameplan. So, this talk about whether these 30 people have breached the OSA is academic.

To the 30 people in question: I hope the money is worth it...

[Ewan Whosearmy]

You call them traitors. I say that’s business. The RAF made it very clear to us all during the 2010 SDSR that we were entirely disposable and they have shown an increasing tendency to operate like a business. Welcome to the open market.

BV

Which makes them mercenaries.

[melmothtw]

It is interesting that all the media reports on this are using EXACTLY the same quotes, which would suggest a single source that no one has been able to identify or even give a hint about. Some one is causing trouble here. I also wonder if this has anything to do with the current popularity of the DCS “championships”.
Maybe SpazSinbad is selling off his vast experience from his 600 hours of A-4 flying from 40 years ago.

Yes, that was my first impressions also. This story certainly appears to have been 'given' to the nationals by the MoD. I suspect the MoD may have told the pilots involved, 'Cease, or we will put it in the media', which appears not to have done the trick.

[Bob Viking]

That depends on what your definition of mercenary is.

a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army.

hired professional soldier who fights for any state or nation without regard to political interests or issues

Many definitions exist.

They haven’t been hired to fight. They’ve been hired to teach. And I very much doubt they are wearing the uniform of the Chinese military. Are they mercenaries?

Was I a mercenary when I was on Loan Service in Oman? Was I a mercenary when I was in Canada? What if I had been sent on Ops in either of those jobs? Would that have changed things?

My point is don’t be so quick to judge. And calling people mercenaries (rightly or wrongly) as a form of insult does not address the root cause of the problem.

BV

[melmothtw]

Which makes them mercenaries.

Unless they have been hired to fly for the PLAAF, they are not mercenaries. Any more than any of the top level military/political leadership are mercenaries for taking on well paid jobs with private industry related to their previous roles.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

That depends on what your definition of mercenary is.

Many definitions exist.



Agreed, Bob. That's just my personal take.

[sitigeltfel]

They're selling themselves short at £250,000. A Labour Party minister costs the Chinese at least £500,000.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

It is interesting that all the media reports on this are using EXACTLY the same quotes, which would suggest a single source that no one has been able to identify or even give a hint about. Some one is causing trouble here. I also wonder if this has anything to do with the current popularity of the DCS “championships”.
Maybe SpazSinbad is selling off his vast experience from his 600 hours of A-4 flying from 40 years ago.

Firstly, good to see you posting again.

Secondly, the SpazSinbad comment was below the belt... or was it banter?

Thirdly, I suspect that there is more than one source, but that only one can be quoted. Major news organisations like Sky and the BBC have editorial standards that prevent them running stories that are single sourced.

[melmothtw]

They're selling themselves short at £250,000. A Labour Party minister costs the Chinese at least £500,000.

And the Tory party has sold its soul to Russian oligarchs while King Charles (or Prince, as he was then) takes million pound bungs from Arabs in plastic shopping bags, which all kind of goes to Bob's point about calling out these individual pilots just looking out for their financial futures when the issue is much more systemic than that, and clearly driven by those at the highest levels of power in this country.

[OxfordGold]

Some of these Pilots that have gone to China are BA pilots.

I assume they could be Prisoned for doing this?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

And the Tory party has sold its soul to Russian oligarchs while King Charles (or Prince, as he was then) takes million pound bungs from Arabs in plastic shopping bags, which all kind of goes to Bob's point about calling out these individual pilots just looking out for their financial futures when the issue is much more systemic than that, and clearly driven by those at the highest levels of power in this country.

Those who call out the ethical and moral bankruptcy of state level actions like the ones you mentioned are also going to call it out at a personal level. And as former military officers, you would expect those who chose to go to China to be as philosophical as they are nonplussed about being called out

[OuchSpud]

At first glance it seems a bit disloyal, but one could point out that if the UK Gov had properly funded the forces and protected pensions, this wouldn't be an issue....

[ORAC]

Whilst it’s a tremendous backhand compliment revealing a level of subconscious inferiority - I’m not sure a few British retired pilots are going to revolutionise the Chinese Air Force.

Let’s remember we don’t have a “Top Gun” equivalent or Aggressor squadron and the last time a Brit pilot shot down an enemy aircraft was 1982, those pilots having long retired.

You can buy good books on tactics*, but at the end of the day it’s embedded QWI totally familiar with their aircraft’s performance and weapons - which I doubt they’d release to a foreign instructor - followed by hours of continuous training in ACT, 2v2, 4v4 and combat training against dissimilar types.

You can buy talk about battle management, flanking, beaming etc etc. But it has to become second nature.

Which is why we have, or had, so many exercises such as Cope Thunder, Red Flag, Mallet Blow etc.

Unless they’ve run off with th3 technical manuals for the weapons or electronics of something the Chinese want to copy or defeat I can’t see this as more than an embarrassment,, not a disaster.


* Recommended, if slightly outdated.

https://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599

[212man]

Some of these Pilots that have gone to China are BA pilots.

I assume they could be Prisoned for doing this?
I think the word is ‘imprisoned’, but what crime are you suggesting?

[Imagegear]

I think the word is ‘imprisoned’, but what crime are you suggesting?

For anyone who has signed the OSA, irrespective if they are ex-BA< ex-Virgin, ex-TUI, etc., it is applicable for life - no exceptions.

For those who have taken the opportunity, when China decides to take action on some of its issues, what value personal neutrality.

IG

[ChrisJ800]

Its a cheap and quick way for China to obtain intellectual property or tactics and procedures. They have been doing it with British academics such as Professors for years. I woild guess it starts with wininig and dining followed by first class return trips to nice parts of China such as Hainan then the cash contracts.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Whilst it’s a tremendous backhand compliment revealing a level of subconscious inferiority - I’m not sure a few British retired pilots are going to revolutionise the Chinese Air Force.

Again, we must assume that they already have the secrets and that they are not asking these people to share anything that is classified. Those who make this point are continuing to miss the actual point.

What they are getting in exchange for money is the know-how necessary to build the core competencies they need to be able to execute their own gameplans. That's why, for example, they have these people flying in their LIFT programme, where OBFM, DBFM and SAT phases contain nothing is classified, but a whole bunch that will form the foundations for their front-line flying in the future.

[roll_over]

China has infiltrated a lot of the country. During covid you could see it with a lot of academics, the WHO was bought by China too. £250K for fast jet pilots teaching the Chinese military seems quite low pay though to be honest.

[Grimweasel]

It’s great of you to pass judgment so swiftly and we are all entitled to our own opinions. However, you are clearly comparing the lived experiences of past generations and subsequent generations. Do you remember the (distant now it seems) era of immense prosperity where people were able to build up a comfortable existence and a pilot’s salary could give you an excellent lifestyle? Well that is long gone. The reason people now look further afield is because our senior officers think just like you and cannot equate their glorified existence as a junior pilot with the reality that now faces our current crop. Poor pay, poor military housing, minimal chances of getting a decent step on the housing ladder and barely enough disposable income for a family holiday at Butlins let alone anywhere more exotic.

When put against this background the idea of securing your family’s future by working overseas becomes harder to resist.

You call them traitors. I say that’s business. The RAF made it very clear to us all during the 2010 SDSR that we were entirely disposable and they have shown an increasing tendency to operate like a business. Welcome to the open market.

BV

Well said! No outrage for the ex-RAF pilots training the Saudis who are literally bombing Yemeni women and children. Nothing about their regime that stones rape victims or 'dispatches' dissenters in their embassies. What about Jeremy Hunt and his Sy clearances when his wife is Chinese, and his sister lives and works in Beijing. Govt shouldn't throw stones in glass houses !

[Imagegear]

Update

http://<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEW: A defence minister says the UK has approached all former pilots who've been recruited to train China's armed forces to warn them against continuing such work. <a href="https://twitter.com/JSHeappey?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JSHeappey</a> tells <a href="https://twitter.com/KayBurley?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@KayBurley</a> the law will be changing to make it illegal to ignore such warnings in future<br>1/</p>&mdash; Deborah Haynes (@haynesdeborah) <a href="https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1582262431203885056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

IG

[57mm]

Looks a good spot for a double agent......

[The Helpful Stacker]

Whether what these ex-RAF pilots are doing assisting the Chinese is legal or not, it is without doubt ethically dubious.

​​​​​​​Isn't this the endgame of Capitalism though? Ethical considerations be damned, just make money by whatever means you can get away with?

I'm sure they'll all be able to buy very nice beds to sleep soundly in...

[KrisKringle]

It's not surprising so many of these highly sought commodities are offering their skills to foreign militaries: they have had almost a pay freeze since 2010 (in real terms, a remuneration reduction of over 20% with reducing allowances), had their pensions devalued, made to work excessive hours and increasingly deployed due to a smaller pool of qualified frontline pilots (mainly due to a broken pilot training system over the last decade). These are highly talented, hard working and smart people who've put in the extra effort during their careers and now seek an opportunity to reap the rewards to compensate for being undervalued and overworked by the RAF and RN. Good for them. They won't be giving away any secrets. Just instilling safe aviation operations and teaching generic tactics.

[Jackonicko]

I am NO friend of China - indeed I've always favoured giving recognition to democratic Taiwan rather than the autocratic mainland. However, when this was all set up, you must remember that HMG were all over China, promoting trade as being the way to encourage liberalisation.

Xi Xin Ping was being bought pints in the pub near Chequers, George Osborne and David Cameron were visiting Beijing, and we were all being encouraged to view China as a valued partner and potential friend. Those who set this up were no doubt encouraged to do so.

One can only imagine that the flow of intelligence from China must have been useful, while hoping that those involved were smart enough not to give away anything that they should not have done.

[Cerney218]

Of course it does takes a dozen or so skilled people out of the current talent pool which the current training system will take what.... 2 or 3 years to make up.

Could that be the Chinese reasoning?

[Timelord]

Lots of us have known about this for years. I wonder why MoD have suddenly made a big thing out of it. Surely they haven’t just found out?

[The Helpful Stacker]

It's not surprising so many of these highly sought commodities are offering their skills to foreign militaries: they have had almost a pay freeze since 2010 (in real terms, a remuneration reduction of over 20% with reducing allowances), had their pensions devalued, made to work excessive hours and increasingly deployed due to a smaller pool of qualified frontline pilots (mainly due to a broken pilot training system over the last decade). These are highly talented, hard working and smart people who've put in the extra effort during their careers and now seek an opportunity to reap the rewards to compensate for being undervalued and overworked by the RAF and RN. Good for them. They won't be giving away any secrets. Just instilling safe aviation operations and teaching generic tactics.

So I assume you're fully in favour of the current industrial action being taken across society then?

I mean, these are all industries that have suffered being undervalued and overworked (especially so my profession, nursing) but aren't resorting to aiding a potential enemy through transfer of skills/knowledge.

[uxb99]

Thats the problem. Is China an enemy or just a country with an aggressive foreign policy? Don't forget that the Me109 prototype flew with a Kestrel engine and the MiG 15 was developed around the copy of the RR Nene which was provided to the USSR. Fast jet pilots have been going to Saudi Arabia for years even though there is a suggestion of official support for the September 11 operation. Personally I don't think it will make much difference because they will be trying to teach pilots indoctrinated in CCP culture to fly with a Western mindset. It could also be unofficially sanctioned as a way of getting intel on the PLAF way of doing business.

The Nene was bad politically. It was a very bad idea for British Jet manufacturers and caused tension between the UK and USA because of the Korean war.
A good example of just because we can not necessarily mean we should.

[Bob Viking]

There are several high horses missing their riders.

Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?

BV

[wiggy]

Some of these Pilots that have gone to China are BA pilots.

I assume they could be Prisoned for doing this?

Imprisoned for what offence?

Personally I'm very much in agreement with the comments made by BV and ORAC on this subject...

[zambonidriver]

personally, I think they are traitors - end of story
Well there would be lots of bodies hanging on trees if you are anywhere near “law” enforcement I reckon.
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).

[The Helpful Stacker]

There are several high horses missing their riders.

Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?

BV

Oh please. Do you honestly think non-pilot trades can't get similar wages without providing services/experience to a potential enemy of the UK and/or its allies?

Just as an FYI, an ex-ranker stacker (left the RAF as a Cpl) is currently fairly high up the chain of a well-known pharmaceutical company, where £250k was less than his bonus last year.

Of course if we're going to resort to dated stereotypes, aren't all RAF pilots officers these days, and therefore imbued with a sense of duty and morality that ex-erks can only dream of?

[zambonidriver]

Is Saudi-Arabia or Israel a threat to the US led world order ?
Some might argue it.
But probably neither would last long without US military support - so the point is moot.

[ShyTorque]

Reminds me of the old joke when instructing potential 'non-friendly' nations, that the best form of evasive action was a 30 degree banked turn to the right.

Not forgetting the mandatory period of straight and level flight after every aerobatic manoeuvre! :E

[NutLoose]

Oh please. Do you honestly think non-pilot trades can't get similar wages without providing services/experience to a potential enemy of the UK and/or its allies?

Just as an FYI, an ex-ranker stacker (left the RAF as a Cpl) is currently fairly high up the chain of a well-known pharmaceutical company, where £250k was less than his bonus last year.

Of course if we're going to resort to dated stereotypes, aren't all RAF pilots officers these days, and therefore imbued with a sense of duty and morality that ex-erks can only dream of?

A lot of Licenced Engineers also earn more than those flying them.

The MOD should ask for their medals, if they have any, back.. treason is a bit far, but training ones adversaries is a bit close to the mark, saying they are not passing on secrets but are teaching them their skill set is in its own way teaching them how we fight. Something they can then adapt to counter act our training.

[Bob Viking]

I’d say that was a very easy and predictable bite. If you couldn’t see the actual meaning of my post I’ll distill it for you.

Do you think the reactions of many people are based on a bit of jealousy of those who can earn a lot more (trust me, I’ve experienced it) and an inbuilt dislike of the ‘two-winged master race’?!

BV

[Wrathmonk]

‘Why now’ for this press release? Concern at political fallout if China attack Taiwan (imagine the headline “Ex-RAF pilots train Chinese Pilots Prior to attack on Taiwan)?! Deflection from other woes in the RAF? Lead turning a more damaging story?

[Flyhighfirst]

Really?
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...

You do realise that hundreds of serving military travel to China each year on holiday? Well maybe not since covid.

[ShyTorque]

The Hong Kong Territory was handed over to the Chinese government in 1997. With it went the entire Government Flying Service, lock stock and barrel. GFS was a renamed/civilianised Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force. The existing contracts of many expatriate workers were carried over. No one complained back then.

Also, many “U.K.” core businesses have direct connections with China. For example, “Bio Products Laboratory”, based at Elstree. It used to be part of the NHS but was sold to China!

If any of us looked at the origins of our household goods, cutting China out of our lives would be difficult to achieve.

[Less Hair]

Continuing established liaison work and light transport duties might be different from the (claimed) instructing and disclosure of western tactics within the PLA AF? It sounds like it might violate the odd NDA or two?

[melmothtw]

Well there would be lots of bodies hanging on trees if you are anywhere near “law” enforcement I reckon.
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).

I understand concerns over autocratic and repressive Saudi Arabia, but why Israel which is a liberal Western democracy that shares the same values and geo-strategic outlook that we do?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I’d Do you think the reactions of many people are based on a bit of jealousy of those who can earn a lot more (trust me, I’ve experienced it) and an inbuilt dislike of the ‘two-winged master race’?!

BV

Not at all.

I believe the concern is that they are aiding a potential enemy, which could cost the UK both money, and more importantly, lives, one day

Whether they are pilots, stackers, fat splashers or spanner monkeys doesn't come into it. They are former members of the British military (and commissioned ones at that, so you'd think would better understand the potential consequence of their actions, if the benefit of a Cranwell education is what it's cracked up to be) and are providing a service to a totalitarian regime with a recent/ongoing history of genocide and expansionist aspirations.

I honestly thought you were more intelligent than to propose the low hanging fruit of "...it's because it's pilots...". My own brother is a currently serving RAF pilot for starters...

[SOX80]

China may not be our enemy (yet) but they are definitely America's enemy, and America lets us play with their nice toys (AMRAAM, F35 etc.). They also invite us to share intelligence and take part in their programmes, RAF pilots are currently flying B2, F35 and F22 in America, would they let us do this if there was a risk these pilots would subsequently go and fly for China? I have spoken to a number of US exchange officers about this and they are absolutely furious, don't imagine the Pentagon is overly impressed either. It may not be technically illegal but neither is having sex with a 12 year old in the Philippines. Ultimately your actions in teaching the Chinese how to be better could end up being used to kill Western or Taiwanese pilots, if you can live with that, fine. I couldn't.

[Flugzeug A]

Again , I have no military / aviation background , so feel free to pull me up but , as it’s an open discussion...
Any details of WHAT they’re being hired to train the Chinese?
I read that it’s flying training - if it’s merely that , is it possible to teach without giving away ‘secrets’?
I haven’t seen any reports that the pilots in question have been asked to reveal anything & it isn’t illegal, so is the condemnation just a moral principal?
To paraphrase BV , ( & I’m still laughing at his original words ! ) it’s a lotta bucks for being Buck Rogers & surely no one would blame qualified people for making money whilst they can.
I appreciate China’s attempts at World domination in other ways , but so far there’s been no shooting between ‘us’ & them , so in that manner , they’re a potential enemy , as are many others.
If it were me , I’d be far more uncomfortable morally at the thought of training Saudi pilots to kill women & children , but the Saudis are the good guys , so it must be ok I guess.

[WB627]

I can not believe that RAF/NATO tactics, or operational procedures whatever you want to call them, do not fall within the scope of the OSA.

Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.

[Dunhovrin]

According to The Times it’s only FJ and rotary mates they’re after. Presumably they still have enough hotel inspectors of their own.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

If it were me , I’d be far more uncomfortable morally at the thought of training Saudi pilots to kill women & children , but the Saudis are the good guys , so it must be ok I guess.

Remarkable. Who do you think the Chinese are going to end up killing if they decide to take back Taiwan?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I can not believe that RAF/NATO tactics, or operational procedures whatever you want to call them, do not fall within the scope of the OSA.

Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.

Totally missing the point.

This is not about the OSA or sharing secrets.

This is about training Chinese fighter pilots to the same standard (or close to) as the best fighter pilots in the world and setting them up to be as capable as possible when they reach their OCU/FTU/whatever.

[Right20deg]

Totally missing the point.

This is not about the OSA or sharing secrets.

This is about training Chinese fighter pilots to the same standard (or close to) as the best fighter pilots in the world and setting them up to be as capable as possible when they reach their OCU/FTU/whatever.

And another reason they would not be welcome company in a long range, multi crew civilian airliner. Strewth. Did someone say ex ba.

[Dunhovrin]

They're selling themselves short at £250,000. A Labour Party minister costs the Chinese at least £500,000.
Remember they’re being paid for their brainpower and an MP’s one is still in factory condition never having been used.

[Flugzeug A]

Remarkable. Who do you think the Chinese are going to end up killing if they decide to take back Taiwan?

But there’s no ‘if’ when training Saudi pilots.
They are doing it.

[melmothtw]

But there’s no ‘if’ when training Saudi pilots.
They are doing it.

I'm no fan of the Saudis, but they are using precision-guided munitions that are being employed with Western planning and targeting procedures. Civilian casualties happen, but they're not by design. Now, contrast that with how China, Russia, etc wage war.

Also, in you're fixation with Saudi Arabia you're still missing the point that they are not a threat to the UK. China is.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

But there’s no ‘if’ when training Saudi pilots.
They are doing it.

So, in your mind, it's morally OK to train someone who simply might kill women and children?

The reality is that war results in civilian deaths. I don't think for a second that China would care any more than the Russians, Saudis or any other regime that we have armed and trained, about killing civilians. In fact, it's quite likely that Chinese doctrine will call for attacks against the civilian population.

[SOX80]

Also, like it or not the Saudi government is supported by the UK and US. Any of our pilots out in Saudi are supported and sanctioned by the UK. We are not likely to go to war with Saudi. The biggest point for me though is not at a government level. When you qualify as a Fast Jet pilot you join a club, to my mind that club includes the USA. If you subsequently go and train Chinese pilots (the clear enemy of one of our closest allies) you are betraying your mates.

[Courtney Mil]

Okay. Everyone here is assuming that this is about “operational training” and selling secrets about combat tactics, weapons systems and capabilities to the Chinese. That is, after all, the thrust of the reports from most of the media. I would make a couple of comments about that.
Firstly, how many “former RAF fast jet pilots” do any of you know that would even contemplate doing this? Remember, we’re looking for a cabal of 30 of them.
Second, the MoD announced that “they” haven’t broken the law. If this incident involved the disclosure of any classified information, that would most certainly NOT be the case.
Thirdly, “they” have been approached and allegedly contracted by a “company in South Africa.” That company appears to be TFASA - Test Flying Academy of South Africa. As their name suggests, they specialise in aircraft test flying (not in the league so ETPS, but accredited by both the CAA and EASA) NOT combat tactics, weapons systems and operational capabilities.
The reaction here is driven by the same attitude that leads some PPRuNE members to start speculating on air accidents before the safety investigation has even begun.
Wait for facts before making rash “judgements”. Either that or rush to the Daily Express comments pages and join the rabid mob crying out to have them sent to the Tower to have their heads chopped off.

[melmothtw]

Also, like it or not the Saudi government is supported by the UK and US. Any of our pilots out in Saudi are supported and sanctioned by the UK. We are not likely to go to war with Saudi. The biggest point for me though is not at a government level. When you qualify as a Fast Jet pilot you join a club, to my mind that club includes the USA. If you subsequently go and train Chinese pilots (the clear enemy of one of our closest allies) you are betraying your mates.

While the reports focus on RAF pilots, they do say that allied airmen have been targeted also (naming Australia, Canada and France). I would be surprised if US pilots have not also been approached, so would be interesting to see what else comes out in the next few days/weeks.

[Ninthace]

Remember they’re being paid for their brainpower and an MP’s one is still in factory condition never having been used.
In the good old days, it took twice as many O-levels to get in as an RAF Apprentice than it did as a pilot. Brainpower may not be what they are after.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Okay. Everyone here is assuming that this is about “operational training” and selling secrets about combat tactics, weapons systems and capabilities to the Chinese.

No they are not.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

In the good old days, it took twice as many O-levels to get in as an RAF Apprentice than it did as a pilot. Brainpower may not be what they are after.

Exactly. It's good looks and charisma that they want!

[SOX80]

I know of at least 6 recent Typhoon pilots that have done this. And they may well be just teaching flying and not tactics but they are still using their skills to make Chinese pilots better. Otherwise why would the Chinese pay for the service? They also have a fairly good understanding of current RAF front line tactics and numbers, including for AMRAAM. I am pretty sure the Chinese could extract these if they wanted to. (Though they probably know it all already)

[Jackonicko]

I understand concerns over autocratic and repressive Saudi Arabia, but why Israel which is a liberal Western democracy that shares the same values and geo-strategic outlook that we do?
That's a very rosy view of a pretty unsavoury regime, which routinely oppresses a big chunk of its indigenous population, and which has been a regular aggressor and destabilising influence in the region.

[Just This Once...]

Reasonably sure that the majority of those who have taken this employment opportunity to help train the Chinese armed forces are conducting a prohibited act. The potential criminal disposal of such individuals is a little tenuous though - there is a legal thread that could be pulled by the CPS but it relies upon some rather weak legislation just to prove that this prohibited event is, in itself, criminal. Still, it is a thread that could be pulled but I highly doubt it and hopefully those who have taken their skills to China will have paid for suitable legal advice.

I am presuming all those exporting their military skills did so at least 2 years post-exit, as that rule applies to all officers on leaving (and is not unique to the Armed Forces). To date I am only aware of civil action against those who transgress the 2-year rule but it can be a rather expensive experience.

For the majority (perhaps all of them from what I understand) having left as 'retired officers' do continue to hold a commission. The line from the JSP to QRs (KRs) is clear and precise:

QR J2914 refers. Officers who leave regular service must not, so long as they continue to hold a commission, or to draw retired pay, enter the service of any government outside the UK, or organisation sponsored by such a government, or any international organisation, without the consent of the MOD.


Either when directed by HM (aka 'Removal') or a 'granted' individual request for 'Resignation' post-service this equals the loss of all pension / gratuities / lump sum. In no way is this element a criminal conviction and it would not need to be disclosed; it is rather expensive though, given the value of a defined-benefit pension.

My best guess is that the MoD and Defence Council will limit its action to forfeiture of commission & pension for those who have taken this path to-date* with some tightening of legislation in the very near future. Anything else is just not worth the publicity and reputational damage.




(* There could be more specific criminal action for those who had particularly high security clearances, especially those read-in to US-owned compartments. The DoD (via DSS) owns that list and utilise the skills and reach of the FBI to investigate and indict.)

[melmothtw]

That's a very rosy view of a pretty unsavoury regime, which routinely oppresses a big chunk of its indigenous population, and which has been a regular aggressor and destabilising influence in the region.

Enough about Saudi Arabia, but what about Israel?

Joking aside though, I'm assuming you're referring to the Palestinians when you talk about the "indigenous population", even though 'Palestine' was a British construct and that the Arabs who lived there were never an homogenous people or nation prior to the State of Israel being formed. Maybe if they accept peace (the Oslo Accord that they rejected gave them 95% of what they're now asking for) and stopped teaching their children from birth to aspire to murder Israelis at every chance they get, the Israelis might not feel the need to "oppress" them quite so much.

As to being an "aggressor", every war/action that Israel has fought has been one of defence. As for being a "destabilising influence", yes, I guess, in the same way that Ukraine is a destabilising influence in eastern Europe right now. All of its Muslim neighbours (and their apologists in the West) want to see the only Jewish country destroyed and its people "driven into the sea", but, of course, it's the Jews that are the problem.

I could go on, but I digress.

[unmanned_droid]

No one cares that they employ UK companies to teach their aerospace firms how to build better products. Why should they care about this? Being a better pilot doesn't really mean much in a crap aircraft as far as tactics are concerned.

The more important questions are, as it's been going on for some time (I remember a rumour here about french aircrew working for the Chinese - as well as Israel cooperation) why now, and who did it? First I saw was Deborah Haynes thread on Twitter late last night.

[melmothtw]

No one cares that they employ UK companies to teach their aerospace firms how to build better products. Why should they care about this? Being a better pilot doesn't really mean much in a crap aircraft as far as tactics are concerned.

The more important questions are, as it's been going on for some time (I remember a rumour here about french aircrew working for the Chinese - as well as Israel cooperation) why now, and who did it? First I saw was Deborah Haynes thread on Twitter late last night.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, this does appear to be a story that the MoD has fed to the big nationals, with them all quoting the same sources. As to why they have chosen today to drawn the line in the sand, I can only suppose that earlier more discreet efforts to get the pilots to change their ways have not been successful, and so now the MoD has now decided to go nuclear.

[NutLoose]

They could always point out to them that they will never ever hold a UK airside permit again as they are now deemed a security risk.

[Bob Viking]

I’m pretty sure they all know that and have done their maths.

The rest of the collective teeth gnashing is ignoring the rather important issue that has been brought up several times in this thread already. MOD can say what they like but if those Typhoon pilots had been treated with respect, their families and work/life balance had been considered and they were paid appropriately (nobody expects £250,000 a year in the UK) they wouldn’t even be looking.

Shouldn’t we be collectively concerned that, for the first time in my lifetime, we have a world class pair of frontline platforms and nobody wants to stay and fly them?

As I keep saying though, ‘it’s not about money’!!

BV

[ShyTorque]

Surely, if a Bill is yet to be passed, what has been done isn’t actually illegal.

[unmanned_droid]

Shaming them (no names shared so not really sure how that works...) isn't going to work. This'll be forgotten about by next week. When they come back, if they come back, they'll get a stern talking to by some nameless and humourless people and that'll be that.

It doesn't solve the key issues that likely convinced those aircrews to do that role and it doesn't solve why today...

[skridlov]

Enough about Saudi Arabia, but what about Israel?
As to being an "aggressor", every war/action that Israel has fought has been one of defence.

Are you seriously uttering this absurd statement with a straight face?

[Just This Once...]

Surely, if a Bill is yet to be passed, what has been done isn’t actually illegal.

The criminal law is, as said earlier, rather weak but does exist in theory. For most of us the loss of all pension rights would make you think twice, let alone the risk of litigation and legal bills.

[Low average]

Just pilots? Just British? I think this rabbit hole will go very deep and there is plenty left to uncover. I would be amazed if it was confined only to the above...

[unmanned_droid]

Just pilots? Just British? I think this rabbit hole will go very deep and there is plenty left to uncover. I would be amazed if it was confined only to the above...

It's not.

[SOX80]

You are absolutely right that losing all our experience after a tour or so is a massive issue. Flying a Typhoon or an F35 is cool but when the organisation you work for is constantly kicking sand in your face there isn't much reason to stay. Don't think it justifies going to work for the Chinese though.

[falcon900]

I’m inclined to say “hats off” to the Chinese. Saves all that spying and espionage malarkey, cuts straight to the chase with a “help wanted” ad.
we might consider doing the same with Russian and Chinese pilots; the going rate is less than £240k too I gather.
As has been said already, this is morally no worse than what many senior officers do when they sell their soul on retirement to the major defence contractors, and certainly harms our defence rather less. It will be a long time before Chinese pilots will be threatening UK skies, and I can’t help but feeling we should be much more concerned about infiltration closer to home. Hinckley point, for example…..

[T28B]

I will ask those who wish to discuss Saudi Arabia and Israel to take that to a different thread.
Thank you all in advance.
T28B

[Mogwi]

I had a very good friend who was employed in China to teach their nationals to fly. He spent a year or so there, had a very pleasant time and ended up married to a Russian princess. The marriage didn’t last, unfortunately, because she spoke no English and he no Russian. The briefs and debriefs were carried out through an interpreter and always finished with the phrase “I will try to do better.”

He was a highly decorated pilot who had been previously been flying state-of-the art fighters and on return, had no problem with his former Service nor, indeed the government.

Slight thread drift though; this was 1920, his previous type was the SE5A, on which he had won a Military Cross. He subsequently stopped flying, won an Oscar for the screen play of Pygmalion and formed a well-known broadcasting company that has had its centenary today. He also went on to write one of the best flying memoirs ever - Sagittarius Rising. He read some of my poetry in the late 80’s, which resulted in me being invited to his 90th birthday bash, where we formed an instant bond.

One hell of a man!

Mog

[charliegolf]

Here's the question for these guys. "Might what I do here make these people better combatants than my countrymen?" If the answer is yes, then shame on them. If the answer is no, then finding something to have a stroke over is a little harder.

CG

[Flyhighfirst]

They could always point out to them that they will never ever hold a UK airside permit again as they are now deemed a security risk.

I’m not sure working in China counts as a security risk and makes you ineligible for an airside pass. If it does someone should tell all the expats flying commercial over there.

[SWBKCB]

Has anybody spotted a fact recently? :ok:

[Tarnished]

Very few "facts" at all in this debate.

Please PM me if you wish facts

[ShyTorque]

I’m not sure working in China counts as a security risk and makes you ineligible for an airside pass. If it does someone should tell all the expats flying commercial over there.

I agree. There is no such legislation. If there was, it would do nothing to further diplomatic relations.

China is now one of the top industrial nations and a large proportion of our consumer goods come from there. Most seem to have no qualms about buying Chinese made goods!

[Wokkafans]

MOD Twitter statement.

Thread:

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQPress/status/1582417903747751936?s=20&t=hg4SSYdtOpp9MMNDXWe2xg

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQPress/status/1582417903747751936?s=20&t=hg4SSYdtOpp9MMNDXWe2xg

[charliegolf]

Twitter replies, blimey! Plenty on 'stroke-watch' over there!

CG

[WB627]

‘Why now’ for this press release? Concern at political fallout if China attack Taiwan (imagine the headline “Ex-RAF pilots train Chinese Pilots Prior to attack on Taiwan)?! Deflection from other woes in the RAF? Lead turning a more damaging story?


A good day to burry bad news?

[WB627]

I had a very good friend who was employed in China to teach their nationals to fly. He spent a year or so there, had a very pleasant time and ended up married to a Russian princess. The marriage didn’t last, unfortunately, because she spoke no English and he no Russian. The briefs and debriefs were carried out through an interpreter and always finished with the phrase “I will try to do better.”

He was a highly decorated pilot who had been previously been flying state-of-the art fighters and on return, had no problem with his former Service nor, indeed the government.

Slight thread drift though; this was 1920, his previous type was the SE5A, on which he had won a Military Cross. He subsequently stopped flying, won an Oscar for the screen play of Pygmalion and formed a well-known broadcasting company that has had its centenary today. He also went on to write one of the best flying memoirs ever - Sagittarius Rising. He read some of my poetry in the late 80’s, which resulted in me being invited to his 90th birthday bash, where we formed an instant bond.

One hell of a man!

Mog

This is one of the most interesting biographies I have read in along time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Arthur_Lewis


I should probably do a Wikipedia entry for my cousin Harold William Medlicott

[muppetofthenorth]

So, ex pilots going that way to train is bad, but the PLAAF folk who were on my IOT were completely fine? Good to know.

[Just This Once...]

Doing stuff with MoD permission is ok; doing it without is not. This stuff is written down and part of QRs and Officers' Terms of Service.

Unless you are suggesting that PLAAF cadets on your IOT were there without MoD's / PLAAF permission?

[The Helpful Stacker]

So, ex pilots going that way to train is bad, but the PLAAF folk who were on my IOT were completely fine? Good to know.

Getting taught which knife and fork to use at mess dinners is a little different to being trained to be better pilots, don't you think?

[chopper2004]

Remember few years Back when two of our British Army guys went on exchange to the Chinese military academy?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-27152535

Think one of the two gents was AAC judging by his light blue beret.

I imagine plenty of former AAC (both officers and NCO) pilots were flying for Bristow out in China during the /80s/90s..

Cheers

[stickstirrer]

Those of us that leave or plan to leave are fully aware of ALL the opportunities and we make our choices according to our own personal values and requirements. I was aware of China but opted for somewhere else (that’s not to say I was guaranteed a job there by any means). I won’t judge anyone that did go that way though.

BV

I leapt out of bed when I heard this. How sad that this has come to pass.

I recall the late, great Geoffrey Wellum saying that the cadets he met on his visits to Cranwell were 'right out of the top drawer'.

On the one hand I am glad that he is not alive to hear that the inheritors of the legacy of the Few have sold their country out by flying for China.

On the other hand I would have loved to have heard what he had to say about ex military pilots working for the Chinese. I have just heard Nick Robinson on the BBC Today Programme ask if they are they traitors. The public will surely think them so.

I recall swearing my allegiance to Queen and Country on the Holy Bible at Cranwell. I never forgot it and would never go back on the deal.

We have just seen the most patriotic demonstration of faith in our country with the splendid Queen's funeral and few of us will forget the sight of the Guards, the most loyal of soldiers, acting as pallbearers.

These pilots are utterly selfish and utterly naive with it. China has been remarkably successful at infiltrating every level of our society in ways too numerous to mention. The Confucius Institute has found a place in many British Universities not least the Institute of Education in London.

Something is seriously wrong with our culture and values and this country needs to wake up pretty quickly to all the threats.

In the meantime what to do about these pilots? The BBC have just broadcast that a Bill will be fast tracked through Parliament to deal with the problem. I don't think we need these pilots back here and I don't think any airline needs to employ them. I also don't want my taxes funding their pensions.

i couldnt agree more. I volunteered to be a pilot in the RAF fully aware that my duty was to defend my country with my life if required.,How anyone can justify these people passing on highly useful info on current Western ( not just British) TTPs which will intimately involve discussing capabilities of our current weapons systems (or else how to justify the Tactics?) is beyond me. I have been aware or very recent experienced pilots flying in China passing on such information. Where does such information cross the line between generic and secret? To not acknowledge that China represents a clear and present danger to the West is a monumental error , head buried in the sand. I hope, that should the war start in the Far East these aviators are recalled as reservists and put in the frontline of our defences. Embarrassing for the RAF, UK; disgusting, very sad.

[STIG781]

Whilst it’s a tremendous backhand compliment revealing a level of subconscious inferiority - I’m not sure a few British retired pilots are going to revolutionise the Chinese Air Force.

Let’s remember we don’t have a “Top Gun” equivalent or Aggressor squadron and the last time a Brit pilot shot down an enemy aircraft was 1982, those pilots having long retired.

You can buy good books on tactics*, but at the end of the day it’s embedded QWI totally familiar with their aircraft’s performance and weapons - which I doubt they’d release to a foreign instructor - followed by hours of continuous training in ACT, 2v2, 4v4 and combat training against dissimilar types.

You can buy talk about battle management, flanking, beaming etc etc. But it has to become second nature.

Which is why we have, or had, so many exercises such as Cope Thunder, Red Flag, Mallet Blow etc.

Unless they’ve run off with th3 technical manuals for the weapons or electronics of something the Chinese want to copy or defeat I can’t see this as more than an embarrassment,, not a disaster.



Fleet Air Arm exchange pilots FOUNDED the TOPGUN course; the RAF QWI course IS the RAF's Top Gun. Let's remember we DO have aggressor and training squadrons, and how long ago a manned aircraft was shot down in combat is irrelevant.

[STIG781]

What is treason? The UK government gave the Soviets the Rolls-Royce jet engine technology that they used to power the MiG-15. What's good for the goose...

Need a dictionary so you? A jet engine from 70 years ago has nothing to do with RAF aircrew committing treason. You so-called current/ex-RAF bunch are quite weird on here.

[STIG781]

China may not be our enemy (yet) but they are definitely America's enemy, and America lets us play with their nice toys (AMRAAM, F35 etc.). They also invite us to share intelligence and take part in their programmes, RAF pilots are currently flying B2, F35 and F22 in America, would they let us do this if there was a risk these pilots would subsequently go and fly for China? I have spoken to a number of US exchange officers about this and they are absolutely furious, don't imagine the Pentagon is overly impressed either. It may not be technically illegal but neither is having sex with a 12 year old in the Philippines. Ultimately your actions in teaching the Chinese how to be better could end up being used to kill Western or Taiwanese pilots, if you can live with that, fine. I couldn't.

They're both countries' "enemy". " America lets us play with their nice toys (AMRAAM, F35 etc.)" F-35 is a British-American toy. AMRAAM is good, new ASRAAM better. Britain shares its (frankly-more clued up) intelligence with the US, not that they put it to much use, the Trump-Russia dossier for example.

[70 Mustang]

Just how unprincipled have our own governments been proven to be over all these years? These Western lighthouses of 'democracy' and 'integrity'?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Just how unprincipled have our own governments been proven to be over all these years? These Western lighthouses of 'democracy' and 'integrity'?

It's not a race to the bottom and members of the armed forces, both current and former, shouldn't be attempting to ape the lack of integrity of our political 'masters'.

Integrity? Isn't that another thing that IOT is supposed to drum into RAF pilots?

[70 Mustang]

I did leave out the majority of corporations, banks, councils, police, priests, professional sports, Supreme Courts, newspapers, food industry, automobile repair technicians, etc. hell, people in general.

[typerated]

Might be be part of this announcement! below:

John Healey, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, asked the Secretary of State for Defence:

“What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the disruption to the UK Fast Jet training is minimised over the next three years.”

James Heappey, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“Measures being considered include sending further trainees to the NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training programme in the USA; accelerating planning for No 11 Squadron (Joint Qatar/UK Squadron) at RAF Leeming to train RAF pilots from late 2022 until 2027; and working with allies and partners to examine whether UK pilots could be trained overseas, or where we might pool our resources, to mutual benefit.”

Maybe we will send them students?

[Bob Viking]

Come on people. Seriously. You can bleat and wail all you like but put yourself in their shoes.

You’re living in Britain with all its current problems. You are an over-worked Typhoon pilot being paid little more than a train driver (many of them will have been earning less) living in crappy old accommodation, spending months a year away from home in an organisation that increasingly makes pilots feel like they are bit-part players in a world where admin and D&I matters more than the delivery of air power. Then someone comes along and offers you a quarter of a million per year, tax free to teach some Chinese pilots how to fly jets.

In that same world, those guys look at the pilots who are only a few years ahead of them in the system who have nice houses and investment portfolios mainly because of luck with timing. They hear stories of the ‘good old days’ but cannot equate it to what is currently happening around them.

I decided it wasn’t for me but, with all things considered, I am not going to embark on a moral crusade against those that took them up on the offer.

Morals and principles are all well and good. The generations before these guys can sit in their (mortgage free) nice houses with their BMW parked on the driveway and wax lyrical about how these guys are treasonous for heading East. Fast forward 30 years and these same guys, if they’d decided against it, might be sitting in their rented semi with a Vauxhall Astra parked on the driveway feeling morally superior but bloody miserable.

Perspective and empathy is important.

BV

[Barksdale Boy]

Something about this whole story doesn't smell quite right to me.

[typerated]

Bob - you have a point but there are other highly paid places to go and fly !

I think though you are verging on defending the undefendable!

[Bob Viking]

I know. I’m in one of them!

BV

[SASless]

Sending Students to Canada or the United States to be trained.....as during WWII you. mean?

Ex-military pilots flying for the Chinese....like the AVG....Flying Tigers?

Does History repeat itself?

[70 Mustang]

Sending Students to Canada or the United States to be trained.....as during WWII you. mean?

Ex-military pilots flying for the Chinese....like the AVG....Flying Tigers?

Does History repeat itself?

Canada never was going to be a threat, and the Flying Tiger event? I wasn't there, but from what I've read, it was very different from this.

Probably didn't pay quite so well? 🤣

[ChrisJ800]

Here is a US ex WSO take on this. He mentions the organization is called Test Flying School of South Africa and its RN and helicopter pilots as well as RAF.

https://youtu.be/KJRluSWuZ88

[70 Mustang]

Isn't there an old saying involving horses and a gate? Not sure how it goes and don't wanna get done for plagiarism.

[Hueymeister]

Come on people. Seriously. You can bleat and wail all you like but put yourself in their shoes.

You’re living in Britain with all its current problems. You are an over-worked Typhoon pilot being paid little more than a train driver (many of them will have been earning less) living in crappy old accommodation, spending months a year away from home in an organisation that increasingly makes pilots feel like they are bit-part players in a world where admin and D&I matters more than the delivery of air power. Then someone comes along and offers you a quarter of a million per year, tax free to teach some Chinese pilots how to fly jets.

In that same world, those guys look at the pilots who are only a few years ahead of them in the system who have nice houses and investment portfolios mainly because of luck with timing. They hear stories of the ‘good old days’ but cannot equate it to what is currently happening around them.

I decided it wasn’t for me but, with all things considered, I am not going to embark on a moral crusade against those that took them up on the offer.

Morals and principles are all well and good. The generations before these guys can sit in their (mortgage free) nice houses with their BMW parked on the driveway and wax lyrical about how these guys are treasonous for heading East. Fast forward 30 years and these same guys, if they’d decided against it, might be sitting in their rented semi with a Vauxhall Astra parked on the driveway feeling morally superior but bloody miserable.

Perspective and empathy is important.

BV
Perfectly put Bob.

Let's be honest, there's probably a load of PLA participating in Tim Davies' flight school/Grim Reapers learning more operational tactics on DCS...

[dctyke]

I don’t know what astounds me more, ex RAF aircrew taking money to train Chinese aircrew on western tactics or people on here trying to defend it. There is no defence for what they are doing out there.

[Load Toad]

They're selling themselves short at £250,000. A Labour Party minister costs the Chinese at least £500,000.

- How much did the Tory ones cost?

[Bob Viking]

You’re assuming the guys in question are teaching the latest, greatest anti-AMRAAM tactics and giving away all of our biggest secrets. The reality will be a lot less dramatic. If they are teaching general flying skills and even BFM they’re not giving away anything that can’t be learned from google.

I would suggest that, before taking the seat right behind the driver on the outrage bus, you should consider that maybe the Daily Mail et al are not in possession of the full facts.

Either way, I wouldn’t want to be one of the guys right now. At least not if I had been planning to return to the UK at some stage and require a job.

BV

[zzuf]

I don’t know what astounds me more, ex RAF aircrew taking money to train Chinese aircrew on western tactics or people on here trying to defend it. There is no defence for what they are doing out there.
Meanwhile in Australia we export millions of tonnes of coal and iron ore to China. I am sure this would make a greater contribution to the military machine than that of a few handfuls of retired fast jet trainers.

[melmothtw]

In that same world, those guys look at the pilots who are only a few years ahead of them in the system who have nice houses and investment portfolios mainly because of luck with timing. They hear stories of the ‘good old days’ but cannot equate it to what is currently happening around them.

Morals and principles are all well and good. The generations before these guys can sit in their (mortgage free) nice houses with their BMW parked on the driveway and wax lyrical about how these guys are treasonous for heading East. Fast forward 30 years and these same guys, if they’d decided against it, might be sitting in their rented semi with a Vauxhall Astra parked on the driveway feeling morally superior but bloody miserable.

I take your point, but that's the same in every walk of life - the newer generation earning much less than their seniors, and having to listen to how much better things used to be back in the day (am sure 1950s RAF pilots were fed up to the back teeth of hearing from 'The Few'). Not sure we'd all run off to China, Russia etc at the first opportunity though. Or maybe we would, who knows?

[wiggy]

I take your point, but that's the same in every walk of life - the newer generation earning much less than their seniors, and having to listen to how much better things used to be back in the day (am sure 1950s RAF pilots were fed up to the back teeth of hearing from 'The Few'). Not sure we'd all run off to China, Russia etc at the first opportunity though. Or maybe we would, who knows?

It's many walks of life it's "have qualification will travel" these days. Certainly on the civil side of aviation plenty of licence holders have "run off" to China in search of better money.

Wouldn't float my boat but it works for some.

[charliegolf]

Meanwhile in Australia we export millions of tonnes of coal and iron ore to China. I am sure this would make a greater contribution to the military machine than that of a few handfuls of retired fast jet trainers.

That can be stopped.

CG

[Chugalug2]

Are the ex-RAF pilots concerned all white and male? If so, does that vindicate CAS's courageous policy after all?

[fdr]

So the complaint is about... what exactly?

The guys serve their country IAW their contract and their pledge of allegiance.
They sign a little thing called the OSA, which is binding in perpetuity.
After retirement, they are offered a job flying for another mob, instructing,
They get paid for their service.

So, exactly... "what the problem is?"

Have they breached a term of their service or the OSA? If so, throw the book at them!
If they haven't, then exactly what is the issue?

Do bankers not work for, assist in profits etc of enterprises that are wholly owned by the PRC govt? Is making trillions of dollars for the PRC govt a lesser "sell out" than a guy walking out to a J-20 to go and teach a guy to fly?
Are they going to teach any factor that came out of SQN SOPs or out of the NATO/US/NOFORN tactics manuals? Would that not be a breach of the OSA and do we assume that they would breach the OSA for a handful of yuan?

PRC as a country has a relatively belligerent attitude to interests in the SCS area, ROK, and JPN. The breach of the UNCLOS by their actions in the SCS is an irritant, and if anyone has a right to object to EFA drivers playing around in Sanya or some other exotic part of PRC, it would be the countries around the SCS.

I changed airforces, as did probably 10% of my generation. In our cases, we went from using one set of tactics to using the same set of tactics with another paint job. There was no lessons learned asked for, and none were given, we drove the planes and taught as the new force required.

Can the guys teach new tactics based on what they had from the squadron SOPs? That is the bit that runs into a serious risk of breaches of the OSA, to which end the relevant states security service has every right to ask appropriate questions, including use of usual techniques to evaluate candid responses.

Does this make me happy to hear? Absolutely not. The RAF and various other defence forces fail to care for their assets which are their people, the engineers, operations and flight crew that make up the capability to do the job. Defence has a need to have a churn rate, there is a continuous training activity to maintain peak proficiency, which at least the US DOD recognised means to avoid losing the competency over time, by developing the reserves, which permit the war fighter to maintain his (or her) competency and capability to support his nation, and to give them a life that is reasonable, the DODs not being known for properly paying engineers, pilots or ops staff.

[Gordon Brown]

The apologists for these pilots selling themselves to the PRC are either naive or complacent. Do you honestly think that the PRC is employing these people merely to learn how to fly a tidy yo-yo and that it will simply not occur to them to ask about Western TTPs and weapons capabilities? If they are paying £250k to these people, they are going to demand VFM, not BFM.

[RetiredBA/BY]

The apologists for these pilots selling themselves to the PRC are either naive or complacent. Do you honestly think that the PRC is employing these people merely to learn how to fly a tidy yo-yo and that it will simply not occur to them to ask about Western TTPs and weapons capabilities? If they are paying £250k to these people, they are going to demand VFM, not BFM.
Short, to the point and absolutely spot on !
Anyone, anyone, who thinks these pilots are there just to teach basic fast jet flying in a country which operates supersonic fighters from a carrier, and aims to have the world’s largest military by 2040 or thereabouts, ( for what purpose, except world military and economic domination) is living in another world.

[Leo45]

Thats the problem. Is China an enemy or just a country with an aggressive foreign policy? Don't forget that the Me109 prototype flew with a Kestrel engine and the MiG 15 was developed around the copy of the RR Nene which was provided to the USSR.
Indeed! The latter with Stafford Cripps’agreement as President of the Board of Trade under Attlees’s government.

[A321drvr]

William Forbes-Sempill comes to mind.

[Union Jack]

Perish the thought, but I can't help wondering how many recently retired SSBN and SSN commanding officers are updating their CVs!:rolleyes:

Jack

[zzuf]

That can be stopped.

CG
Of course $100 billion of mineral export trade can be easily stopped.

[peterperfect]

Something about this whole story doesn't smell quite right to me.
Totally concur, we obviously don't want names but can anybody actually stump up a shred of evidence that any ex-UK military aircrew are directly training Chinese military aircrew at the operational or tactical conversion level ? It's simply an advert that includes our cadre in past experience spec.

[melmothtw]

Anyone, anyone, who thinks these pilots are there just to teach basic fast jet flying in a country which operates supersonic fighters from a carrier, and aims to have the world’s largest military by 2040 or thereabouts, ( for what purpose, except world military and economic domination) is living in another world.

You'll recall that when the Chinese bought the Riga aircraft carrier they said they wanted to turn it into a casino, only for it to later be commissioned into the PLAN as the Liaoning. The point being that whatever the Chinese might say about this RAF training scheme and how innocent it all is, you can be sure that from their perspective there's a lot more to it than that.

[ShyTorque]

The salary paid to these pilots comes from profits accrued by overseas sales of goods. As I hinted before, those throwing stones should think about the origin of consumer goods in their homes. I very much doubt that anyone contributing to this discussion can honestly say that there are no “Made in China” labels on items such as a TV, computer, modem, kettle etc in their home.

Before buying a ticket for the outrage bus, take a look in your own back yard and think about your own contribution to the China economic machine.

[trim it out]

Are Bremont making them a bespoke watch yet?

[OvertHawk]

One has also to consider the timing and limited details of this "revelation". It seems likely to have come from a Government minister at a time when said government is getting a huge amount of negative publicity. This certainly seems to be distracting a few of the more rabid Daily Mail readers.

[Union Jack]

The salary paid to these pilots comes from profits accrued by overseas sales of goods. As I hinted before, those throwing stones should think about the origin of consumer goods in their homes. I very much doubt that anyone contributing to this discussion can honestly say that there are no “Made in China” labels on items such as a TV, computer, modem, kettle etc in their home.

Before buying a ticket for the outrage bus, take a look in your own back yard and think about your own contribution to the China economic machine.

As one of your keenest followers, I must say that whilst I understand the point you are making I am truly at a loss to see the logic in it. Sorry, Sir!:ok:

Jack

[Brian 48nav]

Bob, As I have said before here - I enjoy your posts because you challenge the views of 'old farts' without resorting to insults. However your comment about sitting in our mortgage free nice houses does need challenging. You do not know our back stories but just assume, like so many younger people, that we were 'born with silver spoons in our mouths' and everything else just fell into our laps.

I do live in a lovely house with no mortgage and a Volvo V70 parked in my drive ( no German car for me - too uncomfortable! ) . My back story - 15 years in a SW London slum waiting for a council house ( my parents were on the waiting list for 18 years ), then after 4 years I was lucky enough to be commissioned in the RAF, which completely changed my life. No Gap Year, only one holiday to boast about before my children grew up, with mortgage rates up to 15% and never lower than 8% until the final years of my mortgage c2000. I paid a mortgage from 1970 until 2006 and at last feel I have a comfortable existence without one.

As for going to China - what would worry me the most is 'What if the s**t hits the fan?'. I can't see the Chinese letting them return home if things blow up with Taiwan, and yes I do think they are wrong to go.

[ShyTorque]

As one of your keenest followers, I must say that whilst I understand the point you are making I am truly at a loss to see the logic in it. Sorry, Sir!:ok:

Jack

I simply point out that there are double standards here. Very few of us in the western world have not taken financial advantage from China by purchasing their cheaper consumer goods to the demise of our own industries.

[geo10]

From the Financial Times: "Australia’s defence force has launched an investigation into allegations that a number of its former air force pilots were offered lucrative packages to teach Chinese pilots how to fly western attack aircraft. Australian pilots were among those approached by a South African flight school to train Chinese pilots to operate warplanes that included Typhoons, Tornados and Harriers."
The title is "Australia to investigate scheme to train Chinese military pilots -Former Australian and New Zealand air force personnel offered lucrative sums to teach PLA cadets"

[NutLoose]

So what effective means do the UK PLC have to dissuade? The only things / threats I could think of are

Military pension hit.
Airside permit denial / revoke as security risk
CAA Licence denial / revoke as a security risk
Passport revoke / travel ban as a security risk

[The Helpful Stacker]

The apologists for these pilots selling themselves to the PRC are either naive or complacent. Do you honestly think that the PRC is employing these people merely to learn how to fly a tidy yo-yo and that it will simply not occur to them to ask about Western TTPs and weapons capabilities? If they are paying £250k to these people, they are going to demand VFM, not BFM.

Absolutely spot on.

It's shocking the naivety some posters are displaying on this thread, only made worse by those justifying the actions of these ex-British military personnel in purely financial terms.

Whether something counts as "giving succour to a potential enemy' is not measured by feeling of being hard done by financially. Seeing fellow serving/ex-serving military personnel trying to justify these actions based purely in financial terms is quite uncomfortable reading.

Lest it just be glossed over again I feel it needs reiterating; the skills/experience these ex-military personnel are passing onto the military of a totalitarian state, with a history of genocide and expansionist aspirations, could/will be used against the UK and its allies.

Still, 30 pieces of silver is 30 pieces of silver, eh?

[melmothtw]

Still, 30 pieces of silver is 30 pieces of silver, eh?

Setting aside the rights and the wrongs of the story, when it broke one of my first thoughts was that it is very unfortunate that there happen to be 30 of them involved. The headline kind of writes itself.

[B Fraser]

The salary paid to these pilots comes from profits accrued by overseas sales of goods. As I hinted before, those throwing stones should think about the origin of consumer goods in their homes. I very much doubt that anyone contributing to this discussion can honestly say that there are no “Made in China” labels on items such as a TV, computer, modem, kettle etc in their home.

Before buying a ticket for the outrage bus, take a look in your own back yard and think about your own contribution to the China economic machine.

While what you say is correct, there's a world of difference between having an I-Phone and teaching the Chinese airforce how to improve their tactics and operational effectiveness. Taking the Ukraine conflict as an example, I have a bottle of Russian Vodka in the fridge but would not contemplate teaching the Orcs how to operate a drone (not that I could but you get the point).

There is a point where the outrage bus is justified and, in my view, this crosses that point.

[stickstirrer]

The helpful stacker: well put. The employment by China of very recent Typhoon pilots/instructors has been well known in that community and highly resented. They are not all +50 years old ( and by implication out of touch with modern tactics). You can bet they are being asked to teach counters to BVR and other TTPs which, if only by deduction give the opposition knowledge of the aircraft/ weapon system capabilities. If Taiwan kicks off US and possibly Western pilots will be involved and will be on the receiving end of better trained PLA forces which these mercenaries have trained. Cannot understand how some people here have justified their actions and used pay, pensions and working conditions to justify borderline traitorous actions. Where has the love of, and loyalty to, country gone? Did their vow on commissioning to serve and protect this country mean nothing? When I left I made a business from little and earned enough to pay off my mortgage regardless of the fact that as a civilian pilot I could have earned a hell of a lot more from 38 yrs old. I did not whinge about the pay and conditions but accepted them as part of the privilege of flying in one of the worlds best Air Forces. We had some sub par kit but made the best of it, would have given my eye teeth to have a jet like Typhoon when ‘fighting’ foreign Air Forces!! Patriotism seems to be a dirty word in some places so you will get the country you deserve in the future if all you recruit are people interested in earning money and not serving their country. End of rant.

[ORAC]

Excellent and highly accurate video…. :)

https://twitter.com/ex_owls/status/1582436983603068928?s=61&t=9zxz9964eRuALFo2obRjKA

[T28B]

notasanodnoradmin
(Quoating The Financial Times) ... approached by a South African flight school to train Chinese pilots to operate warplanes that included Typhoons, Tornados and Harriers."
While I am unsure of the provenance, and accuracy, of that article (https://www.ft.com/content/91ec25af-6dcd-47da-995d-2a07510eac01) it raises some interesting questions:
1. Does a South African flight school actually have Typhoons, Tornados, and Harriers? (I find that unlikely, but am willing to be shown otherwise)
2. Are they training in high quality / high fidelity simulators? (Possible. If any of you know about that South African company, perhaps you can comment)
3. Are the expats being hired to form an aggressor squadron against whom Chinese fast jet pilots fly? (Something like a Red Flag)
I expect that the MoD is looking into similar questions.

ORAC: thank you for that link, mirth was had. A few of the replies under the video increased the amusement.
https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1582638681999183872?s=20&t=4qQiFvimSD0YLbTKfsxlaw

[RetiredBA/BY]

In that same world, those guys look at the pilots who are only a few years ahead of them in the system who have nice houses and investment portfolios mainly because of luck with timing. They hear stories of the ‘good old days’ but cannot equate it to what is currently happening around

Morals and principles are all well and good. The generations before these guys can sit in their (mortgage free) nice houses with their BMW parked on the driveway and wax lyrical about how these guys are treasonous for heading East.

BV Mainly because of luck of timing ! Really, try damn hard work and commitment to achieve one’s aspirations.

[NutLoose]

Says it all really.. Endorses my Passport comment

Tobias Ellwood MP (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood)
@Tobias_Ellwood (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood)
·
18 Oct
RAF vets who help train the Chinese should LOSE British citizenship.

[melmothtw]

Says it all really.. Endorses my Passport comment

Tobias Ellwood MP (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood)
@Tobias_Ellwood (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood)
·
18 Oct (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1582298090446258176)
RAF vets who help train the Chinese should LOSE British citizenship.

Jesus, not the animal doctors too!!! Sorry, I'll see myself out...

Seriously though, what about politicians who accept Russian/Chinese money that's given with a view to undermining the British democratic process? Should they lose their citizenship too?

[anxiao]

In ORAC's post above with the Chinese pilot expressing the value of his British pilot advisors I did have a chuckle at the line, "... and they plug in their own USB which gives us more time or something..."

As most companies are very cautious about who plugs USBs into the company computers I wonder who is getting the best deal out of this? :hmm:

[culzean12]

I’d like to know from Tobias Ellwood just how long MoD and HMG have been aware of this activity. It has been known about at squadron level certainly since the first Typhoon pilots went out there.

[Ohrly]

Jesus, not the animal doctors too!!! Sorry, I'll see myself out...

Seriously though, what about politicians who accept Russian/Chinese money that's given with a view to undermining the British democratic process? Should they lose their citizenship too?

Yes they should.

[SASless]

Any thought given to the notion amongst the 30 there are some with multiple employers?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Seriously though, what about politicians who accept Russian/Chinese money that's given with a view to undermining the British democratic process? Should they lose their citizenship too?

They should be sanctioned to a similar level as these ex-RAF pilots should.

Widely recognised reasons for providing assistance to an enemy/potential enemy;

Money
Ideology
Coercion/Compromise
Ego

​​​​​​
But it's ok, because they're only doing it for money, right?

[NutLoose]

Maybe it is a cunning plan to assess the Chinese Air Forces capabilities and readiness, a sort of double bluff, kick up a fuss in public, while they are going about their intelligence gathering mission.. ;)

[Doors Off]

Oh my, those decrying for Treason, imprisonment, hanging etc, etc, blah, blah, need to take a chill pill.

The trainers are free agents. “Intelligence” is a two way street. What about the dodgy real estate/construction contracts that our MP’s are complicit in?

As a former HM Forces member, I have no quarrel with those teaching/instructing/facilitating CCCP members. Am I a Communisist? Absolutely not! Perhaps those trainers earning an honest living are also building bridges to avoid total war? That is a good thing.

[WindsorNinja]

The flight school in question to my understanding only has light aircraft and trains Chinese students in commercial flying. It has no jets stationed there as it is right on the edge of a town (noise) and the runways are too short. It is my understanding that these ex-RAF pilots are all employed and working in China and that the ZA flight school which is accredited by the Chinese Govt to train their new commercial pilots are acting as the middleman between China and the former RAF pilots as the Chinese military cannot approach them directly. The flight school at Oudtshoorn is a former World War 2 RAF and SAAF pilot training airfield which was taken over in 2003 by the current company making the news which has about 80 Chinese students over from China a year to train them as commercial pilots.

[StopStart]

Oh my, those decrying for Treason, imprisonment, hanging etc, etc, blah, blah, need to take a chill pill.

The trainers are free agents. “Intelligence” is a two way street. What about the dodgy real estate/construction contracts that our MP’s are complicit in?

As a former HM Forces member, I have no quarrel with those teaching/instructing/facilitating CCCP members. Am I a Communisist? Absolutely not! Perhaps those trainers earning an honest living are also building bridges to avoid total war? That is a good thing.

Agreed. Do y’all honestly think that 30 former UK military pilots would merrily troop over to China to teach them how to shoot down their old Sqn mates? Do be brief. I’d bet they’re tooling about in Chinese Tucano/Hawk equivalents, teaching the young lads how to fly. The Chinese most certainly aren’t going to allow them to leap into the PLAAFs latest 5th Gen fighter. The Chinese have just as many secrets they want to keep as we do. Living in Chinese RAF Valley (ugh what a combo) teaching circuits isn’t going to cause the collapse of western civilisation.

The Chinese value western trainers and their standards; why do you think their airlines are brimming with them?

I wouldn’t go and work in China but have no particular issue with these guys doing it.

[charliegolf]

And do you honestly believe a country of one billion souls has a shortage of instructors able to teach,

tooling about in Chinese Tucano/Hawk equivalents, teaching the young lads how to fly

CG

[anxiao]

NutLoose, my point entirely. Information flow is a two way street. It would not surprise me to think that MI6 are at this moment on the phone to the Daily Mail telling them to cease and desist with their sensational headlines as their agents are in jeopardy. :}

[StopStart]

And do you honestly believe a country of one billion souls has a shortage of instructors able to teach,



CG

Yes….

[chopper2004]

Says it all really.. Endorses my Passport comment

Tobias Ellwood MP (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood)
@Tobias_Ellwood (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood)
·
18 Oct (https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1582298090446258176)
RAF vets who help train the Chinese should LOSE British citizenship.

Looking at the tweet, shows their August 1st Display Team, of which it was nice to get up and close to them at DAS 2017

https://scontent-lcy1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/26231406_10156423929191490_8231583281144037491_n.jpg?_nc_cat =103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=g_zOohb3McgAX_0oOYP&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-2.xx&oh=00_AT94bQDyGST3ZWl9DeB1H5ls6RnaD7Q3xFdKOtxnjmnzNA&oe=63770406

https://scontent-lcy1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/26195983_10156423929281490_6432108119422520374_n.jpg?_nc_cat =109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=bqwZ4OcpRhwAX_B42nH&tn=N-wO_6RbzeIr_LFe&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-2.xx&oh=00_AT-aZ-mDZMithsegOYJTsh4dAOSkeXVa9r382dver7YOPw&oe=6373CBCF
https://scontent-lcy1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/26196457_10156423929491490_893013198273444275_n.jpg?_nc_cat= 109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=C-qfNOKtHD8AX8W38jJ&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-2.xx&oh=00_AT_fjpXGfXECeuZJjkMlB7EBZf6Uyh7E0Iv1tbiKlGaEFQ&oe=637707AC

cheers

[Just This Once...]

I wouldn’t go and work in China but have no particular issue with these guys doing it.

Yet both you and those guys shared the same Terms of Service that prohibit such work without the prior permission of the UK MoD. Are those who either settle for a UK life or jump through the various hoops in order to work for overseas defence contractors and alike just fools for following the rules?

I have been amazed at some of those taking these jobs - it cannot be naivety alone. Ethics aside, I would baulk at the probable loss of my military pension and the massive blot in my employment history. How many $250k packages do you need to recover the loss of pension and will these guys be effectively stuck in this world, as an increasingly exploitable asset, if returning back to the UK becomes too uncomfortable in the near future?

If China is somehow ok just where do the lines get drawn, or is that just price dependant?

[chopper2004]

NutLoose, my point entirely. Information flow is a two way street. It would not surprise me to think that MI6 are at this moment on the phone to the Daily Mail telling them to cease and desist with their sensational headlines as their agents are in jeopardy. :}

Might i suggest reading the late Colin Forbes thriller 'By Stealth' (1992)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/317x500/0330323946_f1ec5847b91d9aac0355f8895fc50a57be4d802a.jpg
https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/colin-forbes/by-stealth/9780330323949?gclid=CjwKCAjwwL6aBhBlEiwADycBIOOKkMNkjjOvoRIO dqsEnedbb_4Tp5csxWCnwVkqXmI0vCcWP2SMgxoC2nEQAvD_BwE#GOR00230 4517

cheers

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Mainly because of luck of timing ! Really, try damn hard work and commitment to achieve one’s aspirations.
Mate, if you think today's generation work any less hard or with any less commitment then there's news for you. Yet they pretty much get diddly squat in terms of T's &C's (see reduction/re-profiling of flying pay, pensions and just about everything else) compared to even what it was like for people who left 10 years ago.

I'm with BV on this one - wouldn't choose that option myself but (particularly pre-covid in the "let's be friends with China" phase) it's absolutely understandable why some would choose to!

[RetiredBA/BY]

Mate, if you think today's generation work any less hard or with any less commitment then there's news for you. Yet they pretty much get diddly squat in terms of T's &C's (see reduction/re-profiling of flying pay, pensions and just about everything else) compared to even what it was like for people who left 10 years ago.

I'm with BV on this one - wouldn't choose that option myself but (particularly pre-covid in the "let's be friends with China" phase) it's absolutely understandable why some would choose to!
I don’t think that at all .
I was taking exception to the assertion that those of us who “made it” in earlier years achieved it just by the luck of timing. Not my experience.
Some may be happy with diddly squat for their efforts I certainly was not and left the RAF and we, my wife and I, went out on our own. I am pleased to say it worked well, very well indeed.
…..but teaching the Chinese military to operate beggars my belief.
Your opinion my differ !

[NutLoose]

Origninally posted by Just This Once

These guys be effectively stuck in this world, as an increasingly exploitable asset, if returning back to the UK becomes too uncomfortable in the near future?

Actually I would say a depreciating exploitable asset, as time goes by Western training and skill sets evolve. We are not doing exactly the same as we were doing say in the 70's, their skill set is only really relevant at the time of departure, from then on it is a diminishing curve as new technologies and weapons come on line.

.

[FLCHG]

I would assume they remain residents of the UK.
Unless they meet all the requirements of non residency ……..
The salary paid by the PLA will be taxable in the Uk.
Now is that Ironic

[Bob Viking]

I’m pretty sure your assumption will be incorrect.

BV

[212man]

I would assume they remain residents of the UK.
Unless they meet all the requirements of non residency ……..
The salary paid by the PLA will be taxable in the Uk.
Now is that Ironic

Why do you assume that? Have you seen their rotation/schedule?

[fdr]

I’d like to know from Tobias Ellwood just how long MoD and HMG have been aware of this activity. It has been known about at squadron level certainly since the first Typhoon pilots went out there.

probably long enough to be frustrated that it has become public and affects a means to get intel on ops capability of the PRC. Im with Nutz on this bit.

[RetiredBA/BY]

I’m pretty sure your assumption will be incorrect.

BV
Then you need a better financial adviser, taxation lawyer, who is aware of the laws re non domiciled residents and overseas earnings for domiciles.

The law is complex , as my non dom. wife and her lawyer will confirm .

I can put you in touch with one !

[fokker1000]

I have mixed views....

First of all is national/global security.

Second OSA,

Third if you want to use the skills that the tax payer funded you through, and you really enjoyed doing, then pay your training "bond" back to us the tax payer. Plus interest. What's that for a current Typhoon? £500K.

Forth, When you took your commission and swore your allegiance to the crown presumably you had a half decent dose of morals.

Having said that, I have flown with so many mil and ex mil people over the decades, SOME are totally driven my the cash. If I'm honest there is one branch that had worked out their allowances before we'd pushed back of stand.

I feel for all the very decent serving crew. You have my respect.

FK10

[212man]

Then you need a better financial adviser, taxation lawyer, who is aware of the laws re non domiciled residents and overseas earnings for domiciles.

The law is complex , as my non dom. wife and her lawyer will confirm .

I can put you in touch with one !

Are you familiar with the working schedule these guys are on? If it’s equal time or similar, then yes it will be tough to claim exemption from tax on foreign earnings, but if basically full time and accompanied I think not.

[tarantonight]

……..Whichever you look at it - IF the reports are correct.

The Chinese Government have infiltrated a number of sections of UK’s infrastructure.

This can now be done from afar.

I fail to believe any individuals involved are not fully aware of the potential consequences.

Should China invade Taiwan and it becomes public knowledge that aircrew involved were trained by former RAF QFIs, look out Liz Truss.

If you are a still there of course.

Personally my opinion is it is morally indefensible. I have certain awareness that tells me absolutely this is wrong. Even if the pilots being trained are said to be civilian, well consider the Chinese are known to be less than honest.

A huge shame and I believe embarrassment to those involved.

I couldn’t sleep at night.

TN, China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots in 'threat to UK interests'https://news.sky.com/story/chinas-armed-forces-recruiting-dozens-of-british-ex-military-pilots-in-threat-to-uk-interests-12723395

[fokker1000]

I really have no axe to grind, although you might I have..

Mercenary is a word that springs to mind.

[Lima Juliet]

I have been amazed at some of those taking these jobs - it cannot be naivety alone. Ethics aside, I would baulk at the probable loss of my military pension and the massive blot in my employment history. How many $250k packages do you need to recover the loss of pension and will these guys be effectively stuck in this world, as an increasingly exploitable asset, if returning back to the UK becomes too uncomfortable in the near future?

You can work this out if pension is with held. Roughly a £100k buys you £2,500 of AFPS-like pension benefit at age 60.

So, if you have a £30k pension at age 60 it would mean having a £1.5M pension pot. Now, seeing as you’re going to need to live then you might consider squirrelling away £150k of your £250k salary - that would take you 10 years to get back roughly the pension you lost.

Within the AFPS Laws it does state the following, meaning that pension forfeit is entirely possible:

J.6. Events enabling forfeiture(1) This paragraph applies to a member who is an active member, a deferred member or a pensioner member if he—

(a)is convicted of treason or of one or more offences under the Official Secrets Acts 1911 to 1989 for which the member has been sentenced on the same occasion—

(i)to a term of imprisonment of at least 10 years, or

(ii)to two or more consecutive terms amounting in the aggregate to at least 10 years,

(b)is convicted of an offence in connection with the service that qualifies the member to belong to the Scheme which the Secretary of State considers to have been gravely injurious to the defence, security or other interests of the State, or

(c)has after becoming a member of the Scheme incurred a monetary obligation to the Crown which—

(i)arises out of a criminal, negligent or fraudulent act or omission by the member, and

(ii)arises out of or in connection with his service in the armed forces.

(2) This paragraph applies to a person who is convicted of the murder or manslaughter of the member or any other offence which involves the unlawful killing of the member.

(3) In paragraph (2) “unlawful killing” includes unlawfully aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the death.

[Gnadenburg]

Former French Mirage 2000 pilots have been in China for a decade. They are not at elementary flying units they are at fighter squadrons. The sad irony is, and the details easily researchable, Taiwanese pilots have been on exchange programs with the French. One pilot killed in 2012.

Any RAAF pilots there are mugs. Our P-8 operations in the South China Sea are becoming high risk as the PLA Is using sanctioned and calculated aggression that could well go a step further. Shooting down a RAAF aircraft would be escalation to a level of risk, below doing so to a USN Poseidon. We also have Australians permanently detained in China. Detention of former Western military personal easily fabricated- as is going on with a number of our citizens. I’m so surprised that any Australians would be there?

[finestkind]

Somewhat unbelievable about the talk of traitors and loyalty from such a country as England. Mired in a history of civil wars to royalty that sided with Hitler. Politicians that make decisions for the betterment of the country while more for the betterment of themselves. Decrying those that take the golden coin offered by a country by pointing out the horrendous human rights violations of those countries even while their history rivals such atrocities. Today's enemies', tomorrows trading partners which is all about the golden coin.
What is a traitor. Someone that sells state secrets, technology etc or someone who buys the products of another country. Loyalty to what? A country that is willing to place your life on the line but not willing to allow you to live a normal life due to poor wages and conditions or little assistance for lifelong injuries. True loyalty is found by those that have been on operations and that is the people that have placed their lives in the hands of their fellow members.
The world revolves around power and money is power. How many times has a government sold out the sacrifice of their military people under the auspice of for "the greater good" meaning they keep the power and profits.

[Hueymeister]

Absolutely spot on.

It's shocking the naivety some posters are displaying on this thread, only made worse by those justifying the actions of these ex-British military personnel in purely financial terms.

Whether something counts as "giving succour to a potential enemy' is not measured by feeling of being hard done by financially. Seeing fellow serving/ex-serving military personnel trying to justify these actions based purely in financial terms is quite uncomfortable reading.

Lest it just be glossed over again I feel it needs reiterating; the skills/experience these ex-military personnel are passing onto the military of a totalitarian state, with a history of genocide and expansionist aspirations, could/will be used against the UK and its allies.

Still, 30 pieces of silver is 30 pieces of silver, eh?
Lest it just be glossed over again I feel it needs reiterating; the skills/experience these ex-military personnel are passing onto the military of a totalitarian state, with a history of genocide and expansionist aspirations?

are you referring to UK or China here? Asking for a friend, obvs…

[Flyhighfirst]

I have mixed views....

First of all is national/global security.

Second OSA,

Third if you want to use the skills that the tax payer funded you through, and you really enjoyed doing, then pay your training "bond" back to us the tax payer. Plus interest. What's that for a current Typhoon? £500K.

Forth, When you took your commission and swore your allegiance to the crown presumably you had a half decent dose of morals.

Having said that, I have flown with so many mil and ex mil people over the decades, SOME are totally driven my the cash. If I'm honest there is one branch that had worked out their allowances before we'd pushed back of stand.

I feel for all the very decent serving crew. You have my respect.

FK10

Since about 40% of the country lean to a republican stance then it stands to reason that about that many just say the oath and forget about it.

[ShyTorque]

Third if you want to use the skills that the tax payer funded you through, and you really enjoyed doing, then pay your training "bond" back to us the tax payer. Plus interest. What's that for a current Typhoon? £500K.

So, you too have a price!

[biddedout]

I have mixed views....

Forth, When you took your commission and swore your allegiance to the crown presumably you had a half decent dose of morals.

FK10

Steve "hard man of brexit" Baker MP was an RAF Officer so morals don't really come into it.

[Lima Juliet]

Since about 40% of the country lean to a republican stance then it stands to reason that about that many just say the oath and forget about it.

Closer to 20% and maybe as low as 13%. There are the normal ‘fence sitter’ that are undecided that make up about another 15-20%. Solid Royalists are 60-70% depending on the poll. Seems fairly convincing that Royalists in the UK are far more popular than some would have us believe…

Oh, and just because you are a Republican doesn’t mean that you hate your country, its people and what it stands for…

[Asturias56]

with a history of genocide and expansionist aspirations?

are you referring to UK or China here? Asking for a friend, obvs…

;) good shot!

[mahogany bob]

The MOD must have known about this story for YEARS!

A salary of £250k a year would NOT be offered for basic instruction!

So WHY did they NOT give the pilots involved CLEAR advise on whether they were breaking the Official Secrets act and liable to prosecution on return ?

NO advise is implicitly giving the GREEN light?

[Flyhighfirst]

Closer to 20% and maybe as low as 13%. There are the normal ‘fence sitter’ that are undecided that make up about another 15-20%. Solid Royalists are 60-70% depending on the poll. Seems fairly convincing that Royalists in the UK are far more popular than some would have us believe…

Oh, and just because you are a Republican doesn’t mean that you hate your country, its people and what it stands for…

Don't hate the country, the people, or want it stands for. Could care a less about all three. Don’t give it a thought.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Are you familiar with the working schedule these guys are on? If it’s equal time or similar, then yes it will be tough to claim exemption from tax on foreign earnings, but if basically full time and accompanied I think not.
Then, with respect, you need a good tax lawyer, who KNOWS the rules, such as we have used because of my wife’s domicility. The situation is complex and getting it wrong can prove expensive, very expensive. I doubt, but don't know, if there is a reciprocal agreement with China on tax as there is with Australia.

[RichardJones]

Surely this is tantamount to treason. Working for the enemy.
Who will they prostitute themselves to next next? Russia?

[redsetter]

Back in July the heads of MI5 and FBI identified China as the "biggest long-term threat to our economic and national security". Yet some ex-service folks think its still fine to use their skills to provide military training to the Chinese air force - and claim its the RAF's fault for not paying big enough pensions. And anyway - ex-mil from other countries are at it as well - so that's allright. The other justification I quite liked was that China was a long way-away from the UK and was therefore not likely to be squaring up to us anytime soon. Unless of course Taiwan goes t*ts-up and we have to send an aircraft carrier - but that's the Navy so no need to worry I suppose. Interesting times.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Surely this is tantamount to treason. Working for the enemy.
Who will they prostitute themselves to next next? Russia?

Indeed.

Officially Russia aren't our "enemy" at the moment, but would all those supporting these pilots helping improve the flying and fighting ability of the Chinese military also be in favour of said pilots traveling a bit to the NW and mucking in to help that "non enemy" too?

I believe Russia has substantial silver deposits too from which they could also draw 30 pieces.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Back in July the heads of MI5 and FBI identified China as the "biggest long-term threat to our economic and national security". Yet some ex-service folks think its still fine to use their skills to provide military training to the Chinese air force - and claim its the RAF's fault for not paying big enough pensions. And anyway - ex-mil from other countries are at it as well - so that's allright. The other justification I liked was that China was a long way-away from the UK was therefore not likely to be squaring up to us anytime soon. Unless of course Taiwan goes t*ts-up and we have to send an aircraft carrier - but that's the Navy so no need to worry I suppose. Interesting times.

China are also a very real threat to Australia too, a country that we not only have a historic bond to and are a member of The Commonwealth, but they're also a member of AUKUS and 5 Eyes alliances with the UK.

And these 'poor', put upon ex-military pilots decide to help China develop into an even bigger threat to Australia's back yard.

With friends like these...

[Baldeep Inminj]

The MOD must have known about this story for YEARS!

A salary of £250k a year would NOT be offered for basic instruction!

So WHY did they NOT give the pilots involved CLEAR advise on whether they were breaking the Official Secrets act and liable to prosecution on return ?

NO advise is implicitly giving the GREEN light?

FYI, I know several people working in the M.E. teaching basic instruction, for this figure and more. Tax Free.

Tripling or even quadrupling an RAF pilot salary for basic instruction is not difficult.

[mahogany bob]

Baldeep

£250 k!

wow I missed out big time!

[Jesse Pinkman]

Conducted myself a little COVID lateral flow test, this morning. Tests provided by NHS Test & Trace, manufactured in China. Our homes are full of their gear and our critical national infrastructure is funded by them. I wouldn’t trust China to far end of my kitchen table and I certainly wouldn’t work there for £250,000 but it strikes me that somebody a little farther up the food-chain needs to get their own priorities sorted before throwing mud at these pilots.

[Grimweasel]

https://www.businessinsider.co.za/tfasa-says-chinese-pilot-training-is-no-secret-as-uk-shouts-treason-2022-10

[zzuf]

Somewhat unbelievable about the talk of traitors and loyalty from such a country as England. Mired in a history of civil wars to royalty that sided with Hitler. Politicians that make decisions for the betterment of the country while more for the betterment of themselves. Decrying those that take the golden coin offered by a country by pointing out the horrendous human rights violations of those countries even while their history rivals such atrocities. Today's enemies', tomorrows trading partners which is all about the golden coin.
What is a traitor. Someone that sells state secrets, technology etc or someone who buys the products of another country. Loyalty to what? A country that is willing to place your life on the line but not willing to allow you to live a normal life due to poor wages and conditions or little assistance for lifelong injuries. True loyalty is found by those that have been on operations and that is the people that have placed their lives in the hands of their fellow members.
The world revolves around power and money is power. How many times has a government sold out the sacrifice of their military people under the auspice of for "the greater good" meaning they keep the power and profits.

The question should not be about the rights or wrongs of comparatively lowly ranked officers selling their skills to a foreign power. It should be about those in government, politics, industry, business, education etc who facilitated the rise of China to the extent that those job offers can and have been made.
In my country our economy depends on China, our electrical grid depends on China, much prime agricultural land is owned by China, our university system depends on China. China has a 99 year lease on a strategically important northern port. We have graduated Chinese university students in all the disciplines necessary to build a strong aggressive military -nuclear, conventional, biological and cyber. Its seems that the Confucious institutes run our universities. We could not defend ourselves against even a moderate threat. No need for a military threat anyway, blockade the sea routes with submarines and shutdown our electricity grid, with no significant strategic fuel reserve we would be a basket case in a few weeks. We have Chinese police operating in the country, intimidating immigrants, from China, by threatening repercussions against family still resident in China. We, as a sovereign nation, are under threat to reform and respond to a 14 point demand, from China, before "normal' relations can resume. None of this is the result of comparatively low rank ex-military officers training Chinese fighter pilots.
Every citizen of our country has contributed, in some way to the rise of China and the threat to our country. The actions of a handful of comparatively low ranking fast jet, missile fodder, instructors is the least of our problems.
I will not be surprised if our iron ore exports, to China, are eventually returned, value added, as red hot steel.

[Lonewolf_50]

I will not be surprised if our iron ore exports, to China, are eventually returned, value added, as red hot steel.
I am reminded of something my dad shared with me when I was young along similar line. The bottom line was that the US sold quite a bit of scrap metal to Japan in the 1930's, some of which came back to us as bombs at Pearl Harbor and Midway ...
@Grimweasel: Thanks for that link to the response from that training school in South Africa.

[Low average]

Events have shown what happens when we turn a blind eye to the actions of immoral nations like Russia and China. Their immoral governments become emboldened, and will turn on us in their pursuit of conquest - either a short game like Russia, or long game like China.

We are in the final stages of resetting the relationship with Russia - we've been forced into it, but the strategy for China is unclear. I hope the governments of the free world quickly develop a strategy for extricating us from Chinese influence before its too late and our children pay the price. It needs to happen NOW...not tomorrow. It will be painful, but necessary to prevent greater suffering down the road.

I find the actions of those ex-military pilots very difficult to justify.

[Lonewolf_50]

I hope the governments of the free world quickly develop a strategy for extricating us from Chinese influence before its too late and our children pay the price. t needs to happen NOW...not tomorrow. It will be painful, but necessary to prevent greater suffering down the road.
I've been saying that since the early 90's, but I think the political position was "the money's too good!' (short term thinking, yet again).
I find the actions of those ex-military pilots very difficult to justify. Not sure how many Americans may also be involved (my guess is that the number is greater than one) but I have mixed feelings about this. "The money's too good!" seems to be the theme, yes?

Insofar as the charge of "mercenaries" being bandied about in this thread:
Over the past two decades no few of my associates, ex-mil, both rotary and fixed wing, hired out to contractors doing various sorts of operations in active war zones (Iraq and Afghanistan in the main).
This includes a couple of guys I know who were employed by the infamous/notorious "dark fluid" company.
In each case where I got a chance to talk with them, their observation to me (after they'd spent a few years and decided to move on while still breathing) was
"Great money, high risk"
I realize that these situations are not identical, but there are some similarities.
Given my long term distaste for the regime in China, I'd hope that folks would not support them.

As to the canary in the coal mine: wasn't the Huawei 5G thing a wake up call for some governments?

[finestkind]

I will not be surprised if our iron ore exports, to China, are eventually returned, value added, as red hot steel.

Reminiscent of WW11 with Japan?
As far as contributing to China's rise every country that has imported products from China has done so. It is capitalism which is about money which is hypocritical when pointing out a few that grab the golden coin.

[tartare]

Former French Mirage 2000 pilots have been in China for a decade. They are not at elementary flying units they are at fighter squadrons. The sad irony is, and the details easily researchable, Taiwanese pilots have been on exchange programs with the French. One pilot killed in 2012.

Any RAAF pilots there are mugs. Our P-8 operations in the South China Sea are becoming high risk as the PLA Is using sanctioned and calculated aggression that could well go a step further. Shooting down a RAAF aircraft would be escalation to a level of risk, below doing so to a USN Poseidon. We also have Australians permanently detained in China. Detention of former Western military personal easily fabricated- as is going on with a number of our citizens. I’m so surprised that any Australians would be there?

I find it incredible on so many levels.
Despite the earlier poster saying `you do realise many serving military people go there on holidays' I wonder how many currently serving F-35, Super Hornet pilots, or people with currency on the latest BVR techniques, weaponry etc. are on holidays there, or actually helping train PRC fast jet pilots.
And if they, and are working on the mainland, or sunning themselves in Hainan at the moment - they're fools of the highest order.
China's not the enemy? Sure, we're not at war but come-on, how naive.

[MENELAUS]

I can’t see there being an unseemly rush amongst the pilot fraternity ( nor can their families be that desperate) to vacation in the PRC. Unless you’re in to BDSM ,enjoy quarantine conditions and prefer your leisure activities wearing a mask.
As to the delights of Hainan, the “ Hawaii of Asia”, appalling weather, pollution to match, and one great big construction site. Like much of the rest of the country really.

[Asturias56]

Possible promotion to 10 Downing Street?

[albatross]

Don’t know if someone has already posted this story.
“It’s Deja Vu all over again!” to quote Yogi Berra of US baseball fame who was famoius for his “yogi-isms”.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2019/december/jump-starting-japanese-naval-aviation

[mopardave]

Like so many others, these guys need to take a long hard look at themselves. How is this compatible with an oath of allegiance?

[LateArmLive]

May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?

[BBadanov]

May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?

You may indeed 'humbly suggest' anything you like as this is a discussion on a rumour network and we all have views, but there are so many 'outraged posters' here because most have past military service, many have been in combat, and have an ethos of doing the right thing that we had signed up for. We pay reverence to fallen comrades, Remembrance Day, the Cenotaph, and here of course Anzac Day and the mighty Australian War Memorial. If you do not see China as an 'enemy', in Australia - a lot closer to the potential action - we do definitely see China as the dominant adversary. If this language is too strong for you, then national security has indeed been breeched by such irresponsible and selfish behaviour by any 'recruits'. These guys (doubtful whether girls would go, or even be considered) are not head-hunted for their skills in QFI-ing elementary straight-and-level flight training in bug-smashers, it is for their advanced skills in FJ (or helo) weaponeering, electronic warfare, tactics, combat experience, squadron procedures and Int.

Here in Oz, the Shadow Defence Minister (Andrew Hastie, a veteran and former SAS Capt) has claimed that two RAAF fighter pilots were approached but allegedly rejected the offer. I hope, indeed am sure, this will remain the case. If any of my ex-RAF FJ colleagues were so naive to have been tempted by promises of beaucoup renmibi, they should reconsider their own morals, and the unjust authoritarian and aggressive regime they would serve - what are the outcomes being planned by the PLA, and what is the real Chinese endgame.

[finestkind]

Y

Here in Oz, the Shadow Defence Minister (Andrew Hastie, a veteran and former SAS Capt) has claimed that two RAAF fighter pilots were approached but allegedly rejected the offer. I hope, indeed am sure, this will remain the case. If any of my ex-RAF FJ colleagues were so naive to have been tempted by promises of beaucoup renmibi, they should reconsider their own morals, and the unjust authoritarian and aggressive regime they would serve - what are the outcomes being planned by the PLA, and what is the real Chinese endgame.

I understand your outrage, but you need to remember we are just numbers to politicians who are in the game for their own gain under the pretense of for the countries good. Yes, the call to the flag in defence of your country is without a doubt a noble cause. However, ask those involved in Vietnam and the ME just what they think about being there in defence of their country. A fair percentage have questioned the reason why.

From the Roman Empire, Ottoman, Napolean, to Hitler and colonisation, conquering the world each "established" country has tried to expand its influence for economic gain, either through invasion, investment or economic influence. Even the "young " US with its isolation stand prior to WW11 has become a modern version of colonisation. The new banner of in protection of our interest to liberating the downtrodden does not ring as clear as being under the flag of defending your country. Just what is an enemy? Conventional warfare is expensive. The money spent on warfare could easily buy most countries and if not own them through stocks/shares, companies, and real estate.

So, on that who is the enemy? Invading makes it easy to identify, investing not quite so. I am not disagreeing with you that China is a threat and a military one at that, but we have internal threats as well with a main one being those in power using our military personal to protect or expand their own interests. Asking what China's endgame is rhetorical. It is world domination. Whether through military might or economic power becomes a moot point. As stated, this has been reflected through history in invasion, colonisation or economic power (East Indian Trading Company being a prime example). History repeating itself?

[BBadanov]

Finestkind
OK, going off topic into the History of the World Volume I.
However, ask those involved in Vietnam and the ME just what they think about being there in defence of their country. A fair percentage have questioned the reason why.
I have not queried that, and am proud of my service.
Even the "young " US with its isolation stand prior to WW11 has become a modern version of colonisation.
Boy, don't tell the Yanks that! The US rallied against European/Brit colonisation post-WWII for nearly two decades, probably justifiably. However, the US later did get bogged down in SVN, ME and Stan extending their initial concepts from support and short shock-and-awe conflicts into endless occupation with no credible endstate and no out clause.
Asking what China's endgame is rhetorical. It is world domination. Whether through military might or economic power becomes a moot point. As stated, this has been reflected through history in invasion, colonisation or economic power (East Indian Trading Company being a prime example). History repeating itself?.
Agree, yes it is world domination - and China has always played the long game. When you visit China, they love to talk of 5,000 years of history. And they build infrastructure (I saw flyovers out in the countryside) that would join with motorways to be built in 10-20 years time. They are building power stations at an incredible rate, and will have long-term power as we in the West continue with our madness pursuing green solar panels and windmills (built in China of course). They truly look beyond our Western 3-4 year election cycle.
However, I don't agree with your retrospective view of history - invasion and colonisation. It was what it was, we can't go back, but this was progress - and we can argue whether for better or worse - that without that history and the Industrial Revolution, we would never have reached the pinocle of civilisation that the Western era has given. And that level of world stabilisation allowed, for instance, international dialogue between nations, security pacts, trade agreements, and the eventual decolonising of large parts of continents. But back on topic, I don't think Chinese hegemony will produce such a balanced and fair outcome.

cheers

[finestkind]

BBadanov.

History of the World Part 1 , Mel Brooks. Probably sums up the world very well.
I think we agree in essence. Yes China looks well beyond the 3-to-4-year cycle of democratic power as does most autocratic nations. This in itself leads to another post on why democracy is a suicidal path.

Going off topic again. In respect to the level of world stabilisation with the advent of the industrial era I would say just shifted the stage from local area of trade agreements, pacts etc to the world platform. And that I guess is the nub of my posts. To demonise those that take the offered gold coin is exactly the same as trade agreements (lose of a countries ability to be self-sufficient), security pacts (which only work if the pact remains relevant to those that will step in otherwise best of luck) etc..

[Low average]

This in itself leads to another post on why democracy is a suicidal path.

Hmmm...dont think so. We do need to be better at long-term thinking, but I prefer to be able to criticise my politicians when they deserve it, without fear of jail or murder.

Chinese autocracy cost thousands of lives worldwide by suppressing the start of the Wuhan C-19 Epidemic. They even jailed the doctor who raised the alarm and who subsequently "died" at age 33.

No thanks.

[Asturias56]

"If you do not see China as an 'enemy', in Australia - a lot closer to the potential action - we do definitely see China as the dominant adversary. "

But you still sell them as much as you can? I was in Australia recently and all I heard were people moaning that the Chinese were cutting their imports of Australian goods etc

[Wig Wag]

Ex-RAF top gun (call sign Hooligan) has made a killing training China's fighter pilots - and helped recruit dozens of British airmen paid £250,000 a year by Beijing... so why has the MoD only just woken up to this outrage? (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11341957/Ex-RAF-gun-killing-training-Chinas-fighter-pilots-recruiting-British-airmen.html)

' . . . in 2019 a former RAF pilot, who was then working for British Aerospace, approached UK intelligence officials to ask if he could hold onto his security clearances — which granted him access to classified information — should he take up a training position with China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA).'

Can someone please explain why he would do this?

[tucumseh]

I won't get into the moral issues, but merely reflect on the times we have allowed, in fact encouraged, companies to simultaneously contract China for kit we are developing, benefiting from shared costs. I don't suppose many who flew Nimrod, Sea King, Lynx, Sea Harrier, Merlin were aware. But the guys in China at the moment might recognise a few things!

[Low average]

Remember all the warnings given about Russia? The ones that were ignored until it was too late.

The warnings are now directed at China. Shall we stick our heads in the sand again?

[Dogma]

The thought of the UK and Allied defence industry being so poor and lacking in opportunities that ex Fast Jet instructors would go and work in South Africa for the CCP Chinese makes the stomach turn

what a disappointing situation if true. The irony that some of the old guard wouldn’t join BALPA because Unions were a nod to communism

Very sad that it sounds as though many Pilots have succumbed to the CCP Dollar.. fools perhaps. However it does highlight the poor opportunities for these skilled people in the UK. Crap jobs at Whitehall / industry/ airlines with no decent pensions / salaries

[Dogma]

Ex-RAF top gun (call sign Hooligan) has made a killing training China's fighter pilots - and helped recruit dozens of British airmen paid £250,000 a year by Beijing... so why has the MoD only just woken up to this outrage? (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11341957/Ex-RAF-gun-killing-training-Chinas-fighter-pilots-recruiting-British-airmen.html)



Can someone please explain why he would do this?

Money.. but let’s not forget that the British Government (such as it is) wanted the Chinese to build nuclear ☢️ power plants and 5G

[Low average]

Money.. but let’s not forget that the British Government (such as it is) wanted the Chinese to build nuclear ☢️ power plants and 5G

Huawei has been banned from 5G since 2020 and will be removed by 2027. Right direction, but too slow.

​​​Politics aside, ex-military using that as a justification to pass their military expertise to China is....shaky.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/fallettiseb/status/1583665785268211712?s=61&t=fAw_uUMLeYpANqbkRp7LnQ


Exclusive: Several French pilots have been working as instructor in #China to train #PLA air force, two former military sources confirmed me. I interviewed a French Navy pilot who was approached to train China aircraft carrier pilots @Le_Figaro A thread.…

https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1583665785268211712.html

[MENELAUS]

There’s nothing new in any of that. The PLA have been operating, and building under license for years, their version of the Dauphin, and the Super Frelon. They didn’t teach themselves to fly it. Sadly no one seems to realize that you reap what you sow with this regime. It will come back to bite us in the proverbial. And when they get a proper blue water navy ( not some rehashed Soviet museum piece), which they will in short order, they’ll just come and take all those nice Earth metals, no doubt using their NT deep water port as an embarkation point. And who’ll stop them ?

[mopardave]

May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?

Save me the trouble will you and feel free to clear things up?

[redsetter]

May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?
A good starting point would be here:
https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/china-security-challenges-to-the-uk/
China has been flagged as an "immense" threat to the security and economy of the UK. I'd guess treason only kicks in when a state has been declared an "enemy". Nonetheless, I suspect a lot of folks are wondering how ex-RAF folks can square providing military training to a state constituting such a threat ?

[Mechta]

To paraphrase Stinger in Top Gun, "You don't own that training; the taxpayers do!"

All arguments comparing what these pilots are doing to trade agreements are irrelevant. Government decisions, whether right or wrong, are national level decisions. This is about individuals deeming themselves authorised to make decisions on the spot about what can or can't be passed to a potential adversary.

A very simple benchmark would be to ask whether what is being demonstrated, if described in writing, would carry a security classification higher that 'Unrestricted'.

[Gnadenburg]

Exclusive: Several French pilots have been working as instructor in #China to train #PLA air force, two former military sources confirmed me. I interviewed a French Navy pilot who was approached to train China aircraft carrier pilots @Le_Figaro A thread.…

https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1583665785268211712.html

Nothing exclusive about it. I’ve been banging on about French duplicity all year, above in this topic and notably on the AUKUS thread. It was the only way to silence Recce Guy and his French nationalist agenda.

Taiwanese Mirage pilots operate on exchange with the French Air Force. One perished in a crash in 2012. Ironically, French Mirage pilots were paid handsomely on contract to the PLA, where anecdotally, they were surprised at the poor training. How far did they go assisting the PLA with countering French-made weaponry? French security services were well-aware.

I won't go off topic with US security concerns about Australia’s purchase of French submarines.

Economically, parts of South East Asia worth billions a year to the UK. There’s economic and strategic competition; British pilots don’t belong in the PLA.

[Super Cecil]

Free enterprise folks, the way of the world.
It's ok to sell arms and machinery to dodgy foreign powers but not for some to sell their skill of teaching pilots to fly?
If the UK gov don't want the expertise of these pilots and won't pay what they can get elsewhere then too bad.

[Gnadenburg]

So what about your submariners then? Can they earn a living helping out the PLA-Navy?

[finestkind]

Hmmm...dont think so. We do need to be better at long-term thinking, but I prefer to be able to criticise my politicians when they deserve it, without fear of jail or murder.

Chinese autocracy cost thousands of lives worldwide by suppressing the start of the Wuhan C-19 Epidemic. They even jailed the doctor who raised the alarm and who subsequently "died" at age 33.

No thanks.
Criticism ignored is as helpful as a screen door in a submarine. And we know what happens when it is not ignored in regard to the whistle blower laws. I agree with your summary of the Chinese autocratic system and human rights issues. But find it difficult to get to moved when our democratic governments have put our military into questionable situations over the years that have cost lives for very questionable reasons.