Italian Army Bell 205 Close Call

[trevelyan]

Hello all,

Just seen this and not noticed it on here thus far - assume was recent? 205 up high suffers what was apparently LTE - looked like a close scrape but recovered well. Apologies I can only find an FB (http://fb.watch/fX1FzYjdLL/) link.

Regards

Trevelyan

[Bksmithca]

Hello all,

Just seen this and not noticed it on here thus far - assume was recent? 205 up high suffers what was apparently LTE - looked like a close scrape but recovered well. Apologies I can only find an FB (http://fb.watch/fX1FzYjdLL/) link.

Regards

Trevelyan
I'd be ordering some clean underwear and not buying any lottery tickets for awhile

[LRP]

Not sure about the LTE part but that was sure some fancy flying.

[SASless]

That folks is a real Helicopter Pilot.....who survives to learn from his mistakes.

Actually....if ever there was a guy that should be buying his Lottery Tickets....it is he!:eek:

[Tickle]

That was seriously impressive!

LTE - bang! - hard nose over - reversing - fly away.

[Nescafe]

Downwind approach? There’s a lot of dust blown up on the ridge that moves downwind, but it could be the rotor down wash.

[Ascend Charlie]

Considering that LTE is as big a myth as the Invisible Friend, it was simply the pilot demanding more from the tail rotor at altitude than it could produce. Lucky to get out of it.

Nescafe, if it was a downwind approach, he wouldn't have been able to back off like he did - he was getting some assistance being blown back.

[GS Pilot]

Fast downwind approach with predictable results.
Nice recovery.

[Bomber ARIS]

Apparently, there was ground contact during the pirouette...

https://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/310573582_465963798889735_4721921514059136707_n.jpg?_nc_cat= 106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=h1mEOyUyR7UAX9OehLZ&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=00_AT8srdVErYlLX8OEoke-kAqYBPQ5xbkH6LM4cePWtJZbjw&oe=63416A1A
https://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/308017416_10228653764072372_6545220364074538242_n.jpg?_nc_ca t=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=KAm0Lt9fdkgAX_aC6Tz&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=00_AT_yJfNHBvXTM77MjOB2vK7edBfIAd6zTyQGwdgSQSxvYg&oe=6340EA72https://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/308206726_10228653764512383_687261101886009431_n.jpg?_nc_cat =101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=ftzK-jaQ5MoAX9QiIxd&tn=hw9YArUg5QpSUsW2&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=00_AT-AkLZlJxkIxvG_EuFIM2bo7H-xKoRhhmvu2roeD7UC9A&oe=63413FAChttps://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/310379594_10228653766952444_252200482758026940_n.jpg?_nc_cat =101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=rQwNPuZOTmkAX-LvHto&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=00_AT8AkWjQtNnnEHr8f6b4SA5x4aNi0rqL5lM0Ag8IQharfg&oe=634174CBhttps://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/310461122_10228653766592435_3080581824502947409_n.jpg?_nc_ca t=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=5j2oRRgyVe8AX-RWb1B&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=00_AT9u08VaDFJR5jpYnfxqjFtYqeTWzhth4Iow5Iyhz1QTHA&oe=633FC4D1https://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/308489446_10228653765112398_8753889315333025629_n.jpg?_nc_ca t=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=kUCNbisihRgAX-RQE-T&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=00_AT-ooktf7kxppZ1vZ22xigF_bQXDcnVBygtNMsfN4UplxQ&oe=63402C0Fhttps://scontent.fmel7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/309391679_10228653765952419_5782385892132650332_n.jpg?_nc_ca t=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=3noMGnbqXjUAX9daNCD&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel7-1.fna&oh=00_AT_B6zFzbpwx6QnBy1DgQiyMQwqHPMQ8mgasVoAd3Bv8bw&oe=6340A08D

[RINKER]

My word it doesn’t get much closer than that. Strong ship to stay together for sure.

R

[Ascend Charlie]

Lucky to survive all that - especially the strike of the T/R blade on the vertical fin. Our air force lost a Huey when the blade struck the fin, but the end of the blade came off, causing a severe imbalance - the whole tail rotor gearbox tore itself off the fin, the CG change plus the loss of anti-torque caused a huge nose-down and twist. The main rotor hit the raised tail boom, came around and took out the cockpit and left side and removed the tail boom completely, before separating. Splat.

This fella should retire.

[fdr]

Dont mormally see dynamic rollover around the chin bubbles. that was remarkable. The rotor mast shows.... any contact?

[Hueymeister]

Doubt it was downwind. That's running out of pedal. I flew UH-1D's at that altitude in the Alps too. The UH 1 has a fairly benign LTE compared to the other aircraft I've flown. That crew were incredibly lucky. I wonder if more modern airframes would have been so forgiving or put up with that level of abuse.

[Flying Bull]

Doubt it was downwind. That's running out of pedal. I flew UH-1D's at that altitude in the Alps too. The UH 1 has a fairly benign LTE compared to the other aircraft I've flown. That crew were incredibly lucky. I wonder if more modern airframes would have been so forgiving or put up with that level of abuse.

there are two Videos- have a look.
the dust is really blown away - that was for sure a downwind approach.
After recovering he is turning and flying away into wind - which he wouldn‘t have done/needed if the wind was on the nose beforehand

[SASless]

I know the Huey....and immediately upon seeing the first few frames of the video my gut reaction was that nothing good was going to come off it.....even allowing for distortion by camera angle and all.

Way too fast and steep.....and if in the Alps... suggesting up high.....and with no snow on the landing site....warmish.....bad Karma!

Bristow wrote off two Bell 205's....Hueys....in two weeks in Iran with the crash sites within sight of one another during the late 1970's.

When we heard on the company HF radio network the crash report noting numbers of passengers and cargo.....and the elevation.....the cause was identified in the initial message each time.

Neither Pilot involved had experience on the type in the US Army

Huey Tail Rotors were known to be marginal at best and loss of tail rotor effect was the first thing to happen upon bleeding Nr for any reason.

That is why you learned to make turns to the right on takeoff as when departing heavy you were going to turn right whether you wanted to or not.

[[email protected]]

Bouncing off the ground in the pirouette saved their lives I think. He must have pulled the collective all the way to the top stop during the 'recovery'. Engine and transmission change after that but better than the alternative.

If he was such a good pilot, how did he allow himself to get into that situation in the first place? - Good hands but poor decision making?

[SASless]

As I said earlier in the thread..... That folks is a real Helicopter Pilot.....who survives to learn from his mistakes.

[skadi]

there are two Videos- have a look.

Link of second video please

skadi

[MENELAUS]

In the immortal words of the boss at Shawbury when I went through. “Gentlemen. Get out there and try and kill your selves. Preferably on Crown Territory.” Helicopters. They sort the men out ( and women I hasten to add) from the proverbial.
All that said, that approach looked extremely rushed and was only going to have one outcome Thankfully he got away with it.

[ngfan]

www.stol.it/artikel/chronik/helikopter-in-turbulenzen-militaerpilot-verhindert-absturz

[KiwiNedNZ]

My question is - he would obviously known that he hit the top of the hill. WHY would he turn around and fly it back to base instead of just put it down immediately where he was. With the damage to the T/R surprised it didnt come off during the flight back to base.

[ECB4]

My question is - he would obviously known that he hit the top of the hill. WHY would he turn around and fly it back to base instead of just put it down immediately where he was. With the damage to the T/R surprised it didnt come off during the flight back to base.
Judging by the outcome of the first attempt to put it down where he was, finding somewhere else to land was the only option
Downwind, moving out of the updraft, pulling in an armful of collective, that tail rotor couldn’t produce anywhere near enough thrust to stop that machine going end for end. It obviously tried to, beyond limits.
I’d be very thankful for the people who designed and put together something that could take so much abuse and still keep flying
There by the grace of my “Invisible Friend” go I 😊

[albatross]

My question is - he would obviously known that he hit the top of the hill. WHY would he turn around and fly it back to base instead of just put it down immediately where he was. With the damage to the T/R surprised it didnt come off during the flight back to base.
Probablyn because the massive adrenaline blast impaired clear and correct thinking. I think the aviation Gawds were in control for a considerable part of the incident.

[Hueymeister]

Where’s the second video? I only see the FB one.

[Ascend Charlie]

Really questioning the "downwind" bit - he would not have been able to reverse away as quickly as he did if his tail was into wind, particularly as he was running out of T/R power.

That second video is even more scary.

And for Ned's question as to why he didn't land straight away, it is obvious that landing at that altitude wasn't going to work, so going somewhere a lot lower was the option, and he probably had spare underwear back at base.

[DIBO]

Where’s the second video? I only see the FB one.
See link in post #20, the 2 videos combined

[helmet fire]

No LTE here IMHO, just LTA which is a common 205 gotcha. Different thing, different cause, different recovery and personally I feel that every 205 pilot should know this intimately because if you fly a 205 you will eventually experience LTA. Probably never LTE.

I think Tail rotor authority is what we need to focus on for this one, and avoid confusing it with LTE and effectiveness. Great to see the crew come home to share the lesson.

NB: I have been wrong before.

[SASless]

Did the aircraft bleed any Nr immediately prior to beginning the uncontrolled yaw?

Looking at the Coning Angle as the aircraft begins to gain some separation from the hillside....it would be quite probable that it did.

If so...the loss of tail rotor thrust l is a side effect to that in the standard Huey.

[Ascend Charlie]

No LTE here IMHO, just LTA which is a common 205 gotcha. Different thing, different cause, different recovery and personally I feel that every 205 pilot should know this intimately because if you fly a 205 you will eventually experience LTA. Probably never LTE.

I think Tail rotor authority is what we need to focus on for this one, and avoid confusing it with LTE and effectiveness. Great to see the crew come home to share the lesson.

NB: I have been wrong before.
HF, wasn't that the time when you thought you were wrong, but you weren't?

[Flying Binghi]

www.stol.it/artikel/chronik/helikopter-in-turbulenzen-militaerpilot-verhindert-absturz

Translated from the link:“…Alpini soldiers rehearsed their skills as part of the "Vertigo" exercise..”


From wikipedia:

“… Vertigo is a condition where a person has the sensation of movement or of surrounding objects moving when they are not. Often it feels like a spinning or swaying movement.This may be associated with nausea, vomiting, sweating, or difficulties walking…”

[Hueymeister]

No LTE here IMHO, just LTA which is a common 205 gotcha. Different thing, different cause, different recovery and personally I feel that every 205 pilot should know this intimately because if you fly a 205 you will eventually experience LTA. Probably never LTE.

I think Tail rotor authority is what we need to focus on for this one, and avoid confusing it with LTE and effectiveness. Great to see the crew come home to share the lesson.

NB: I have been wrong before.

i think you’re right on this and apologise for mixing LTE for LTA. I would occasionally see LTA high up in the Alps. The Wessex and Sea King would simply let go with little to no warning. The Huey was much more benign. I still don’t think it was downwind, especially seeing it back away as it did. The sound of the über low Rotor RPM was an indication of how much collective was applied! Like you I too have been wrong before.

[bront]

It was definitely downwind, just look at the grass in front of the cameraman.

[[email protected]]

It was definitely downwind, just look at the grass in front of the cameraman.
Agreed - you can see his downwash ahead of the aircraft blowing the dust.

It looks like he was trying to yaw right in the very late stages of the intended arrival so that he ended up pointing into wind in the hover - unfortunately the loss of ETL increased his power demand and therefore TR demand - the audio certainly suggests some NR decay which will reduce TR thrust further as it slows down.

[albatross]

Wise pilot once said “In, hot, high, heavy conditions Pedal turn to the left because if you go right you won’t have enough left pedal to stop the darn thing from spinning. If you don’t have enough power available or left pedal authority to do a left pedal turn you need a new plan!”

[SASless]

Rhetorical question.....did the Crew conduct an inflight power and flight control authority check at the same altitude as the landing site height or do a high Recon orbit around the hilltop to confirm the wind before commencing the approach?

Was this the first/only landing attempt at that site?

Then there is the question of whether this was a Pinnacle or Ridgeline location considering the terrain?

Thinking along with Albatross....perhaps it was a new Plan A that was needed rather than a Plan B....as a proper Plan A always has a Plan B built in to it.

[EDMJ]

It would appear to have happened here (see the first of the three photos in the reel), in the area of Meran 2000, roughly between Bozen and the Austrian border in the province of South Tirol in North Italy; elevation 2361 m.

https://www.kuhleiten.it/

[Flying Binghi]

Rhetorical question.....did the Crew conduct an inflight power and flight control authority check at the same altitude as the landing site height or do a high Recon orbit around the hilltop to confirm the wind before commencing the approach?

Was this the first/only landing attempt at that site?

Then there is the question of whether this was a Pinnacle or Ridgeline location considering the terrain?

Thinking along with Albatross....perhaps it was a new Plan A that was needed rather than a Plan B....as a proper Plan A always has a Plan B built in to it.


That’s a point. At least 2 filming suggest they may have already landed at least once, or done a flyover/checks.

Maybe the wind conditions changed between a first and second landing ?

[Flying Binghi]

the two videos are of the same landing. there was only one landing attempt.

I were suggesting that having two cameras going from a group of people suggested there were an expectation of a landing. I’m wondering were the ground party part of the military ops ?

[[email protected]]

I were suggesting that having two cameras going from a group of people suggested there were an expectation of a landing. I’m wondering were the ground party part of the military ops ?
That might explain the 'hotdogging' of the approach, going for something flashy rather than safe.

It is a valid operational technique but you need to do it to the left and maintain ETL until you are halfway round the turn into wind.

[sycamore]

A smoke marker dropped on a low pass,and proper power would have been a better option...

[SASless]

I did not hear of dropping of smoke markers for such purposes until I joined a UK Based Helicopter operator which incorporated many such British Military practices into its flying procedures.....and we were. issued smoke grenades for that purpose.

I never did do that as I had learned how to assess wind conditions during an airborne pretending check that included both power required and available along with figuring out the wind along with other issues.

Dropping a smoke grenade works...but also has the risk of starting a wildfire in the process that has to be reckoned with during the decision to drop the smoke or not.

A senior company check pilot set fire to an airfield using that method or a Flare fired from the aircraft as part of a training flight thus we learned to be very careful about using the smoke grenades.

[EDMJ]

I were suggesting that having two cameras going from a group of people suggested there were an expectation of a landing. I’m wondering were the ground party part of the military ops ?

See the link I posted in #36. It was next to a mountain lodge in a popular Alpine hiking area (Meran 2000), and the weather was nice, so probably plenty of people around-

[HBXNE]

This looks like a very old "205" with the t/r on the left side of the tail boom. T/R rotation CCW.

Good discussion about the pros and cons of the "forward" T/R blade rotating with M/R downwash or into the M/R downwash from way back when.

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/453011-bell-205-tail-rotor.html

[[email protected]]

I did not hear of dropping of smoke markers for such purposes until I joined a UK Based Helicopter operator which incorporated many such British Military practices into its flying procedures.....and we were. issued smoke grenades for that purpose.

I never did do that as I had learned how to assess wind conditions during an airborne pretending check that included both power required and available along with figuring out the wind along with other issues.

Dropping a smoke grenade works...but also has the risk of starting a wildfire in the process that has to be reckoned with during the decision to drop the smoke or not.

A senior company check pilot set fire to an airfield using that method or a Flare fired from the aircraft as part of a training flight thus we learned to be very careful about using the smoke grenades.
Yet UK SAR and other military units used the technique extensively with very few incidents for a great many years.

Like this Italian pilot, when you think you are too clever to be caught out by wind changes, especially fickle in the mountains, that is when you find out you are not.

[Bellicose]

I don't believe any 205's had a tail rotor on the left, but of course the HUEY did; happy to be proved wrong.

This looks like a very old "205" with the t/r on the left side of the tail boom. T/R rotation CCW.

Good discussion about the pros and cons of the "forward" T/R blade rotating with M/R downwash or into the M/R downwash from way back when.

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/453011-bell-205-tail-rotor.html

[HBXNE]

"UH-1H?"

I would say you are correct with regards to civilian vs military.

I did work on 204B's & 205A-1's in the '80's. The 204 T/R was on the left hand side and on the 205's the T/R was on the right hand side.

With the incident a/c, it is an Italian military "Huey" with the CCW rotating T/R on the left hand side.

I do wonder who was flying at the time of the incident. Training flight with the "student" in the right seat and IP in the left? Who was on the controls during / after the pirouette and backing out of the shoot/gully?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I've just been looking at 2 of my photos of SOAF AB205s and they definitely have the t/r on the aircraft's left side, with blade descending in front of the t/r g/box (ie anti-clockwise when viewed from the left of the aircraft). Aircraft was the direct equivalent of the UH1H with the addition of a permanently fitted electric winch (hoist, if you prefer) just behind the pilot.

[RVDT]

The "205" boondoggle.

Bell 205A - Commercial helicopter with an FAA TCDS - made by BHT - T5311 originally - TR LH side - MTOW 8500 lbs. Can and I think most were upgraded to A-1's as only 39 odd produced but some not eligible.

Bell 205A-1 - Commercial helicopter with an FAA TCDS - made by BHT - T5313 originally - TR RH side (212 part) MTOW 9500 lbs Internal 10500 lbs external. Count upgraded A models and roughly only 293 ever in existence.

AB205A - Non commercial (i.e. Military) No TCDS - UH-1D/H equivalent made by Agusta under licence in Italy (UH-1 is a US military designation as they "own" the type hence not called a UH-1.) TR LH side.

Park a UH-1 next to a commercial US built 205A-1 and they look "similar" but there are a lot of differences - electrical, drive train, engine, structure, etc etc. To me a "205" is the commercial version of type and everything else is a UH-1 of which there were thousands built.

Over the years there have been a huge amount of mods and STC's with UH-1's getting commercial parts fitted and upgrades to the basic 205A-1 to A-1+, A1++ (212 parts and bigger engines), and even to a B model which is basically a single engine 212 with a T5317. And of course not to be confused with a 212 Eagle "Single".