Pilot Shortage (Down Under)

[RealSatoshi]

While working to form the United Nations after WWII, Winston Churchill famously said "Never let a good crisis go to waste".

This very practise became the fallback position during the pandemic, with a multitude of examples abound. While C-Suiters were, and still are, laughing all the way from the stock market to their riverside mansions, they were and still are hellbent on devaluing the pilot profession and subsequent careers of the same skilled workforce they would (again) need in the future.

The notion of a real or perceived pilot shortage ebbs and flows throughout various cycles of the world economy. Yet similar to what happened ex 9/11, there is now a real possibility that in the near future, significantly sized airframes could go un-crewed. There might not yet be a full blown pilot shortage (in Australia), but there is already signs of a Shortage of (experienced) Pilots willing to Work for the Conditions on Offer.

Combine this with certain operators declaring economic and financial war on their pilot groups and you will start seeing the cracks appear - experienced pilots can and will start leaving for better conditions and mutual respect, while the same financial warmongering operators will start vacuuming lower experienced pilots into their ranks.

At first, it will all seem benign, but then...as the floodgates open, the influx of 'imported' pilots will cement these conditions (or lack thereof) as the new normal, with the profession being worse off for it in the long run - C-Suite Mission Accomplished.

The Cracks are Here:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1404x412/screenshot_2022_09_13_at_14_41_32_435f4ce46a559440b9512738d3 b51362212b8b60.png

...and another operator Here:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1394x512/screenshot_2022_09_30_at_16_19_19_062b021a23aa5bcc31d4f77140 39b153245a4a0e.png

[43Inches]

Since when has AirNorth been using SAABs? or is this a replacement for the Braz or some other dablings...

[RealSatoshi]

Since when has AirNorth been using SAABs? or is this a replacement for the Braz or some other dablings...
Two unrelated indications of the 'cracks' referred to...

[43Inches]

While there are cracks showinga nd definitely indicators that crew are starting to be valued my biggest indicator will be when the majors offer fully paid cadetships for the majority of entrants. Until then they are still seeing enough workforce generated from the lower levels to fill seats.

A lot of hype of shortages is also a tool to get more self funded kids into flying schools, "look we're desperate, pay for it and you will have a job!". Then you finish and find you are on a waiting list at the bottom end.

Sadly I don't see too much shortage a a boon for pilots, maybe short term, but once the airlines really kick into gear with their own full scale programs GA will shrivel further and the conditions of training will probably have a noose attached, eg China, where you are bonded for life. The MPL sorta does that as well, with licences linked to particular airlines training programs rather than free to use outside those organisations.

The screen I was using made the two different ads look like one, hence my confusion at the type....

[lucille]

What are Saab 340 drivers being paid in Oz?

There’s probably a lot of ex-long haul guys out there who have made enough to retire and would like to fly mainly front of the clock, same time zone and sectors of less than an hour. If I hadn’t had the lens replacement surgery which precludes a Class 1 medical, I’d quite like the relaxed lifestyle.

[WannaBeBiggles]

What are Saab 340 drivers being paid in Oz?

There’s probably a lot of ex-long haul guys out there who have made enough to retire and would like to fly mainly front of the clock, same time zone and sectors of less than an hour. If I hadn’t had the lens replacement surgery which precludes a Class 1 medical, I’d quite like the relaxed lifestyle.

Relaxed lifestyle for a regional TP captain. That joke made my day :}

[xaos03]

The cracks have already well and truely formed.

As an example, the young ones who enter this QF school and do their program will be offered the jobs with ridiculous conditions they are super excited about, nice big shiny plane. The jobs we all won’t stand for because we want to be paid and given what we deserve.
Then give it a year or two too wear off, until the “what the hell was I thinking” thought comes around, when they can’t afford too live because the EBA they signed up too isn’t up to date with the current CPI. And the union and gov are useless too do anything about it, or they don’t wish too do anything about it because of how weak they are.
Continue grabbing some pilots from overseas to work here for the ridiculous conditions as well; beautiful for the airlines they’re laughin’.

The magic of aviation and working in it is gone.

One might hope that all these Australians leaving and a perceived shortage might see a change. I don’t want to say it but I think the above answers it.
One can hope for a short while.

[AmarokGTI]

...and another operator Here:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1394x512/screenshot_2022_09_30_at_16_19_19_062b021a23aa5bcc31d4f77140 39b153245a4a0e.png

Who are you suggesting this post is for?
People I know who work for both Rex and Link
Airways on the Saab have received contact via LinkedIn from Rishworth Aviation for this posting. Either it’s not those airlines, or Rishworth are contacting people about the job they already have.

[lucille]

Relaxed lifestyle for a regional TP captain. That joke made my day :}

Apart from the admittedly crap salary, what’s not to like?

Sleep in your own bed every night and actually get sleep! Luxury, Mostly day time flying in mostly benign weather. Luxury. Almost zero back of the clock flying. No jet lag with its attendant negative health effects. Luxury.

[Ladloy]

Apart from the admittedly crap salary, what’s not to like?

Sleep in your own bed every night and actually get sleep! Luxury, Mostly day time flying in mostly benign weather. Luxury. Almost zero back of the clock flying. No jet lag with its attendant negative health effects. Luxury.
Zero back of the clock and jetlag is correct, the rest is wrong. Sure it's not long haul but it's not sunshine and lollipops

[kitchen bench]

Pilot Shortage (Down Under)

Where's "Up Over"?

[WannaBeBiggles]

Apart from the admittedly crap salary, what’s not to like?

Sleep in your own bed every night and actually get sleep! Luxury, Mostly day time flying in mostly benign weather. Luxury. Almost zero back of the clock flying. No jet lag with its attendant negative health effects. Luxury.

The bed you either pay a fortune for that's close to the capital city you need to live in on a meagre salary, or the long commute if you want a decent place to live without paying through the nose.
Or the 4+ sector days, going up and down constantly, dodging weather, spending hours in a ****ty regional airport "terminal" waiting a turn because the aircraft doesn't have an APU. Not to mention the light aircraft you might be dodging in and out of the uncontrolled airports you'll be operating in to.
Or maybe the hotels (or motel..) for the overnight not being even close to what someone who flew international being used to. (When the Gove Walkabout all of a sudden passes for luxury compared to some of the other places you've had to overnight) :}
Not to mention the lovely donga you might get to kick back in while doing a day wait at a mine site.

The benign weather comment makes me think you've never flown around Darwin or the Cape during the wet season....

By all means have a crack, but come back to me about the luxurious life of a turboprop skipper after you've spent some time doing the job.

[ad-astra]

At first, it will all seem benign, but then...as the floodgates open, the influx of 'imported' pilots will cement these conditions (or lack thereof) as the new normal, with the profession being worse off for it in the long run - C-Suite Mission Accomplished.


It's a big wide world out there and like it or not the profession has few border protections now.

If you believe the reports of hundreds of Australian pilots finding jobs with Atlas, National, Kalitta et al you will also appreciate the irony.
North American pilots are lamenting that the E3 'floodgates' are now open, and their T&C are being cemented in by foreign nationals.

Don't get me wrong I think there are some great opportunities worldwide which should be taken advantage of, but Australian pilots cannot expect a one-way street as far as job opportunities are concerned.

Not in the last 44 years of my career have I seen this fabled pilot shortage.
But then again if you stay here long enough you see all kinds of ****.

[717tech]

When the Gove Walkabout all of a sudden passes for luxury compared to some of the other places you've had to overnight :}

Now come on.... nothing wrong with the Walkabout.

[Trevor the lover]

Wanna be Biggles
so was it not like that when you joined, or did you just not do research as to whether the job was right for you before taking it?

[43Inches]

I've done the turboprop life, it's relatively easy, definitely not luxurious. Weather in Australia is benign mostly would struggle to log 3 hours actual IF in a month if you are smart you just fly over, under or around the weather. The occasional nasty trough can linger and make a few days a year tiresome and the multiple sectors keeps the brain active. Single overnights and day shifts make it pretty cruisy, with most of my old shifts around 6-7 hours duty a day. Pay was always just enough, nothing special, could afford a decent house, but not a beachfront mansion. Not going to even entertain spending over $10k a term on kids education, that's just nuts and trying to put your kids in schools where the rich and famous can only afford, not sure why bother. Courses for Horses really, lots of people enjoy flying TPs for regionals and have done it a long time, the majority got into aviation to fly jets and will never be comfortable in a TP, others will never be happy because the perfect aviation job just does not exist for them.

[lucille]

The benign weather comment makes me think you've never flown around Darwin or the Cape during the wet season....

.


No one does pissing contests and cheap shots better than Aussie pilots. It’s no wonder we’re so unpopular around the world. AustraNauts they call us! I’m sure the Crab Theory was developed by someone who studied Aussie pilots.

The rest of your post was reasoned and meaningful. Pity about the cheap shot.

My original comment had to do with former long haul pilots who were lucky to have squirrelled away enough over the years and who would enjoy a healthy and mostly daytime flying job. If I hadn’t had the lens replacement surgery which precludes a Class 1, I would probably be applying for such a position.

There are those of us who try our best to make every hour of every duty day as much fun and enjoyable for all the crew and staff. This team camaraderie is probably what I miss most about being retired.

[SOPS]

No one does pissing contests and cheap shots better than Aussie pilots. It’s no wonder we’re so unpopular around the world. AustraNauts they call us! I’m sure the Crab Theory was developed by someone who studied Aussie pilots.

The rest of your post was reasoned and meaningful. Pity about the cheap shot.

My original comment had to do with former long haul pilots who were lucky to have squirrelled away enough over the years and who would enjoy a healthy and mostly daytime flying job. If I hadn’t had the lens replacement surgery which precludes a Class 1, I would probably be applying for such a position.

There are those of us who try our best to make every hour of every duty day as much fun and enjoyable for all the crew and staff. This team camaraderie is probably what I miss most about being retired.

The team thing is what I miss most as well. When I was in the Middle East I missed it, as it was not really encouraged there. My previous airline in Europe really had a strong team ethic. I really miss that.

[Likeasomebody]

That Saab gig is in Tonga. $82k NZD for LHS.

[Alice Kiwican]

That Saab gig is in Tonga. $82k NZD for LHS.

Really if I worked it out correctly that is around $72kAUD to fly a SAAB. I wouldn’t have thought too many would go for that unless it is a lifestyle choice

[43Inches]

That Saab gig is in Tonga. $82k NZD for LHS.

Has to be lifestyle based as that's quite literally half of what a Rex Captain gets paid and still seriously less than an FO would get paid.

[exfocx]

Wanna be Biggles
so was it not like that when you joined, or did you just not do research as to whether the job was right for you before taking it?

You obviously didn't bother to read the thread, Biggles wasn't complaining about his conditions, he was refuting Lucille's comment that his job was a "nice & easy gig" for a former LH'er to continue their career in.

[Ladloy]

Has to be lifestyle based as that's quite literally half of what a Rex Captain gets paid and still seriously less than an FO would get paid.
120k is a 10 year captain base at rex so 160 assuming a considerable amount of overtime. That being said there's plenty of positions available at Rex currently. So many Saab drivers walking out the door from both seats.

[Trevor the lover]

Fair cop - my apologies.

[Sector3]

They are offering AUD$130k to one candidate.

[43Inches]

120k is a 10 year captain base at rex so 160 assuming a considerable amount of overtime. That being said there's plenty of positions available at Rex currently. So many Saab drivers walking out the door from both seats.

DTA and allowances like claiming every meal entitled will easily net you $20k+ then a few work on AL, crewing stuff ups resulting in extension payments or days off possibly another $10k-$20k without breaking a sweat or even cracking 700 hours for the year. The point was that its half of the AUD value, so only $70k a year. If you hit the Casual work hard you will easily crack $200k and still not hit 900 hours, and if you do they can't work you any harder but you can still do more casuals as they come up, or end up with several weeks of forced leave while you flight time recovers, depending on how good you are at swinging the numbers. I've seen this happen back when they first brought in the casual day payments, everything has just gone up since then. Some pilots had it so worked out they were working casuals to be taken off regular duties and worked no harder than someone just line flying the roster, just keep pestering crewing to give you the work and they did, CAO 48s and you worked for triple the pay one day and got the other off, no net gain in workload. BTW heard from a mate that the latest EBA offer will be a significant improvement. So that $120k might soon be well into the $130ks. Nothing huge compared jet jobs, but for the lifestyle options for some it sounds pretty good, especially if you want to live country.

I think the story of the day was a certain captain that made $160K in six months then one day didn't show up for work. Legend has it he put the money into his yacht and when crewing finally caught up with him he was half way up the coast on some round the world tour. When asked where his priorities lay he parked up and returned to work like nothing had happened.

[Ladloy]

DTA and allowances like claiming every meal entitled will easily net you $20k+ then a few work on AL, crewing stuff ups resulting in extension payments or days off possibly another $10k-$20k without breaking a sweat or even cracking 700 hours for the year. The point was that its half of the AUD value, so only $70k a year. If you hit the Casual work hard you will easily crack $200k and still not hit 900 hours, and if you do they can't work you any harder but you can still do more casuals as they come up, or end up with several weeks of forced leave while you flight time recovers, depending on how good you are at swinging the numbers. I've seen this happen back when they first brought in the casual day payments, everything has just gone up since then. Some pilots had it so worked out they were working casuals to be taken off regular duties and worked no harder than someone just line flying the roster, just keep pestering crewing to give you the work and they did, CAO 48s and you worked for triple the pay one day and got the other off, no net gain in workload. BTW heard from a mate that the latest EBA offer will be a significant improvement. So that $120k might soon be well into the $130ks. Nothing huge compared jet jobs, but for the lifestyle options for some it sounds pretty good, especially if you want to live country.

I think the story of the day was a certain captain that made $160K in six months then one day didn't show up for work. Legend has it he put the money into his yacht and when crewing finally caught up with him he was half way up the coast on some round the world tour. When asked where his priorities lay he parked up and returned to work like nothing had happened.
Not sure when you worked there but the average rex capt would be year 4-5, with a cadet loan. Also not sure how your mate thinks the new deal is good. It's well below cpi for the last 4 years with a very crude way to pay backpay. I also love people who say that to make good money you need to work annual leave. Stockholm Syndrome

[Gunner747400]

DTA and allowances like claiming every meal entitled will easily net you $20k+ then a few work on AL, crewing stuff ups resulting in extension payments or days off possibly another $10k-$20k without breaking a sweat or even cracking 700 hours for the year. The point was that its half of the AUD value, so only $70k a year. If you hit the Casual work hard you will easily crack $200k and still not hit 900 hours, and if you do they can't work you any harder but you can still do more casuals as they come up, or end up with several weeks of forced leave while you flight time recovers, depending on how good you are at swinging the numbers. I've seen this happen back when they first brought in the casual day payments, everything has just gone up since then. Some pilots had it so worked out they were working casuals to be taken off regular duties and worked no harder than someone just line flying the roster, just keep pestering crewing to give you the work and they did, CAO 48s and you worked for triple the pay one day and got the other off, no net gain in workload. BTW heard from a mate that the latest EBA offer will be a significant improvement. So that $120k might soon be well into the $130ks. Nothing huge compared jet jobs, but for the lifestyle options for some it sounds pretty good, especially if you want to live country.

I think the story of the day was a certain captain that made $160K in six months then one day didn't show up for work. Legend has it he put the money into his yacht and when crewing finally caught up with him he was half way up the coast on some round the world tour. When asked where his priorities lay he parked up and returned to work like nothing had happened.
This was a cracker read.. I'll know who to ask when I need someone to write something on how to polish a turd.

You continue to go on about how this new proposed EBA is good, yet all I have heard is the contrary.

[morno]

Mate you can fly a King Air doing half the work for more money than that.

[the_rookie]

I've done the turboprop life, it's relatively easy, definitely not luxurious. Weather in Australia is benign mostly would struggle to log 3 hours actual IF in a month if you are smart you just fly over, under or around the weather.


Don't have that luxury in the top end in summer. And it's not "austranaut" when someone corrects utter garbage

[43Inches]

Mate you can fly a King Air doing half the work for more money than that.

Not going to say its great, but its way better than the Tonga offer and only flying a 34 seater. Lets face it, you only work 6-7 hour days and 4 days a week when its fully rostered. At the moment due to shortages yeah you work your arse off, possibly, still talking to guys doing less than 600 hours a year. Some parings have never allowed you to work much harder. Also compared to jet flying no back of the clock, mostly all 6am to 9pm rosters, really good crews to fly with everyone knowing each other, from all groups, not just tech crew. I mean as I said before courses for horses, you either like it or not, most there are wanting to fly jets and don't like the SAAB full stop, even if they paid double they would struggle to keep pilots that would still accept the same or slightly less to fly an A320 or 737 etc... In fact some have left higher paying positions for lower paying FO positions exactly for that reason, personal choice.

Not sure when you worked there but the average rex capt would be year 4-5, with a cadet loan.

You do realise is what you just said is someone with no experience from the start is now within 4 years a Captain earning $140k, with the ability to be hired by anyone. Some now taking that opportunity up flying for QF, VA, J*, Atlas, you name it. Considering most of those will be about 25 years old. The other part is that a lot have the finances to just pay out the loans rather than sit for 7 years, which is more the issue Rex is having, that the Cadets are not in the noose they thought they would be. And the Rex system is from start date at the company, not from position start date. So when you start as an FO whatever you are when you upgrade is your years in service Captain level.

Meanwhile somebody trained for GA as said in another thread is starving and squabbling for pittance to make some experience.

Don't have that luxury in the top end in summer. And it's not "austranaut" when someone corrects utter garbage

Why are you working in the top end then? move down south, plenty of jobs from jets to TPs to anything really for the last 15 years. Sounds like a life choice rather than a problem with the job. I've worked with plenty of guys who flew Turboprops and Jets in the Northern hemisphere, US, Europe, Asia, even Russia. I'll never complain about weather in Australia compared to their stories. Flying a Russian turboprop in a Russian winter for a few mere rubles, makes me shudder to think.

It's well below cpi for the last 4 years with a very crude way to pay backpay. I also love people who say that to make good money you need to work annual leave. Stockholm Syndrome

Rex pilots made a choice back in 2019 that would have covered them through to this point, they knocked it back. No one is going to get back pay for covid, you either had an EBA increase through it or not. That's the downside to EBA negotiations if you choose not to have an EBA change, it stays the same until you vote another in. You keep voting no the company just keeps paying you the same, there is no owing/backpay or any such thing. You negotiate the next EBA and keep going from there. As I said in the other thread, it takes years to build up conditions and one day to tear them down. I mean I hope you can get 20-30-40%, knowing management they will probably just stall negotiations another 5 years as they have already done. I'd love to see Rex pilots get a great deal, I don't think the offer worked up I've heard is that bad, for those genuinely in the regional game, it's definitely way better than anything that has been on offer before, which will make it hard to improve on.

[Likeasomebody]

They are offering AUD$130k to one candidate.


Yep, got the same message today. $130k AUD with transport, accommodation and relocation tickets isn't bad at all. 3-12 month contracts too 🤷🏾‍♂️
​

[43Inches]

Yep, got the same message today. $130k AUD with transport, accommodation and relocation tickets isn't bad at all. 3-12 month contracts too 🤷🏾‍♂️

Good example of why you want to be careful of going through contract companies for work, seems like they are offering different deals depending on where you are. Who knows what the top deal is, and possibly the lucky applicant will be the lower one on the list. At least under an agreement operator you know what the deal is before starting and its consistent to the end of the deal. Otherwise sounds like a reasonable gig for someone wanting to hide in the islands for a short while and is not really interested in long term job security.

[morno]

43, everything you are sprouting in here appears to be the opposite of what you’re saying in another thread. I thought people were supposed to be staying in GA until the SAAB or Jet job is paying $200+?

[43Inches]

43, everything you are sprouting in here appears to be the opposite of what you’re saying in another thread. I thought people were supposed to be staying in GA until the SAAB or Jet job is paying $200+?

Theres a big difference between stating what the problem is vs telling people not to progress. Problem, too many pilot applicants. Once they are there you can not tell them what to do, just what options they have. Highlighting the gross inequities in jobs is the main cause, such as pay for your own training/rating. When theres other avenues. Make it clear that when one does this other companies see a cost saving and follow suit. All Im saying is once you are in the industry think beyond now and look at where you want to be and more importantly how your own actions might jeopordise the very job you seek.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Flying i Aussieland must be one of the easiest flying jobs in the world. 25 kts in Sydney, and you cancel everything and go home. Fond memories from my last trip down under. Terminal packed with waiting passenger due to «weather».
Where can I apply? And where is a good place to live for expats? Where we don’t have to mix with the locals?

[wellcamp_spud_7500]

Flying i Aussieland must be one of the easiest flying jobs in the world. 25 kts in Sydney, and you cancel everything and go home. Fond memories from my last trip down under. Terminal packed with waiting passenger due to «weather».
Where can I apply? And where is a good place to live for expats? Where we don’t have to mix with the locals?
you can go out to oenpelli and get some time on a 210.

[Duck Pilot]

Elcho Island would be a better place, tropical island in the South Pacific.

And for those who have the guts, go and fly for North Coast Aviation in Nadzab PNG - that will toughen the green horns up quickly if they survive 6 months.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Manada
Flights rarely get cancelled due to "weather". That is just the lie the airline gives you when they can't crew the flight, or the aeroplane is busted, or whatever custerfaack has stuffed the system.
If there's a puffy cloud in the sky the airline says we'll blame the weather and the dumb arse public will swallow it.