RIA Saudi Airlines?

[778Skywalker]

Think you need to go to the menu under your name on the top right after you logged in or something to that effect. It's there on your personal page as an option. Those not having received the email you just mentioned would not have that option. Success!

[Youwish]

I’ve heard the rumor that Qatar airways tried to set up a “no poaching agreement” with Riyadh air but got a big slap in the face.
This could be the best new in the region

[Bravo Papa]

Think you need to go to the menu under your name on the top right after you logged in or something to that effect. It's there on your personal page as an option. Those not having received the email you just mentioned would not have that option. Success!

Yeah, got it now thanks.

New problem now, can't submit because the field "Do you hold an additional qualification" has the answers TRI, TRE or STRE and no option for "No" if you do not hold an additional qualification, and it's a mandatory question!

[pilota320pilot]

Think you need to go to the menu under your name on the top right after you logged in or something to that effect. It's there on your personal page as an option. Those not having received the email you just mentioned would not have that option. Success!

I got it too. What kind of questions does it have? Deciding whether I should do it now or tomorrow. A little tired right now to answer anything in depth

[Bravo Papa]

I got it too. What kind of questions does it have? Deciding whether I should do it now or tomorrow. A little tired right now to answer anything in depth

Mostly just about your work experience and hours. Probably better to do it when you're not tired...

[Bravo Papa]

Yeah, got it now thanks.

New problem now, can't submit because the field "Do you hold an additional qualification" has the answers TRI, TRE or STRE and no option for "No" if you do not hold an additional qualification, and it's a mandatory question!

Seems like someone from RIA might be reading this forum as the "No" option is there now. Another one I found is on the last page under "What type ratings do you hold, or have you held?" there is no option for A330.

[778Skywalker]

Probably someone brought it to their attention, I don't think they are on here to be honest.

[Wingman82]

Same problem, cant proceed with the questions/application as I am a line Captain "only"

[Horia]

Do the questions ask for anything precise or are more general in nature? I’m currently away flying and don’t have my logbook.

[windster]

Do the questions ask for anything precise or are more general in nature? I’m currently away flying and don’t have my logbook.

Mostly general in nature regarding your previous work experience, hours in different roles that you must have carried out, types of aircraft that you've flown.

[Wingman82]

The problem is fixed, you can select "no" now.

[Ilyushin76]

Anyone else just receive this:

"Thank you once again for your interest in joining the Riyadh Air family. We are thrilled to inform you, that you have successfully passed the initial stage of our rigorous selection process.

The next stage requires your participation in a questionnaire that focuses on your flying experience. Your thoughtful responses will enable us to gain a deeper understanding of your unique journey as a pilot."

Click the link and it takes me to update my password, no questions anywhere in sight!!

Did everyone who applied get this email?

[oldkarim]

Did everyone who applied get this email?
Yeah but there is no questionaire

[Dashofmilk]

Go to Login---top right under your name select review status and then click update your flying experience.
Does anyone have the Talent acquisition email address? I'm not able to choose from the list of employers :ugh:

[Ilyushin76]

Go to Login---top right under your name select review status and then click update your flying experience.
Does anyone have the Talent acquisition email address? I'm not able to choose from the list of employers :ugh:

Choose "other".

[andready04]

We have some exciting news to share with you! You have successfully completed the initial stage of our selection process, and we're delighted to invite you to complete the second round of application questions.

We understand that your time is precious, so the additional questions will only take 10-15 minutes to complete. We've made them as concise and straightforward as possible, ensuring a smooth and efficient process for you.
.
.

To access the follow-up questions, simply click the below link

It didn’t work I tried allowing pop up, closed the browser opened another, used my phone.

What do I do ?

[andready04]

Did everyone who applied get this email?
I tried ticking allow pop up and used different devices. Did anyone have any luck with the link.

[ninerzero]

Does anybody have informations regarding the salary and the roster?
I have send them an email but they didn't reply. Recently got an automated email regarding my flight hour details that's it. I have heard they already had some roadshows.

[FL 400]

I tried ticking allow pop up and used different devices. Did anyone have any luck with the link.

Same here, tried both on my phone and laptop, the link directs to the careers home page.

[Airmann]

Haha. Welcome to Saudi boys, this is how it's going to go for your entire time in the Country. Hope the salary is worth it.

[ninerzero]

Haha. Welcome to Saudi boys, this is how it's going to go for your entire time in the Country. Hope the salary is worth it.


Like what? Didn't get it. No one knows. It must be significantly more than what i earn now, that i move my a** to Saudi. Why no one is saying anything?

[Emma Royds]

It’s Saudi. It’s the only country where I tell the enroute controllers to say again, even though I heard their transmission clearly. Afterall, they do the same all the time. :}

Hopefully that might give you a flavour of how things are done there.

[778Skywalker]

I am reading they will start interviews in September for induction in January 2023. Obviously at first they would be looking at hiring TRI/TREs. Is anyone on here TRI/TRE? I am in so far but only have previous TRI/TRE experience and not on Boeing so one wonders if Instructors have already been hired and that this part of the selection refers to Line pilots. Anyone with any knowledge?

[ilariomaybe]

T&C floating around group chats 💸
how accurate will they be … ⏳

[778Skywalker]

T&C floating around group chats 💸
how accurate will they be … ⏳
If what I saw is correct then the other ME carriers are going to have to watch out. I have not seen anything official though.

[rudestuff]

It's a rumour network, you're allowed to say it...

[Youwish]

If what I saw is correct then the other ME carriers are going to have to watch out. I have not seen anything official though.

when it’s too good to be true, there is a good chance it isn’t correct. Lower your expectations guys!

[Flycaptain777]

Anyone know the group chat ? Would like to find out more

[Rie]

I take no claim to the ownership of this message but this is what I received in the East. No idea the truth behind it as the English is very broken.

RIA just send the terms, not bad:

Direct entry Captain

Tax 0 %

18 days on 12 days off

Tickets home

25,000 usd salary for PIC / 18,000 usd for F/O per momth

Kids school and accommodation allowance annually 200,000 usd

28 days annual leave

Ramadan bonuses 1 salary guaranteed ++

First batch joining in 6 month.

[kungfu panda]

That's fake News. Looks like parts of the contract have been transfixed to other parts. Education for example is likely to be 200k SAR not USD. The 25,000 USD is 25000 SAR for accommodation. ETC...

It's a mess. Commuting will not happen. Initially anyway.

[rudestuff]

What I saw had Basic + flight + accommodation coming out to $26,000 / $20,000 based on 75 block hours.

[ninerzero]

What I saw had Basic + flight + accommodation coming out to $26,000 / $20,000 based on 75 block hours.

Where? Did you receive anything from riyadhair ?

[rudestuff]

Nope. Nothing official, just the usual stuff floating around from person to person. But the breakdown was realistic and all in SAR. I'm inclined to believe it - the numbers are plausible seeing as they have unlimited budget and will need to price themselves significantly above the other three...

[ninerzero]

Nope. Nothing official, just the usual stuff floating around from person to person. But the breakdown was realistic and all in SAR. I'm inclined to believe it - the numbers are plausible seeing as they have unlimited budget and will need to price themselves significantly above the other three...
how can this sound plausible as pilots in saudia earn significantly less than apperently riyadhair? I'm not so optimistic to be honest. Riyadhair I believe knows about these whistle-blower". As a matter if fact it is the way how an airline can see who is interested and who is willing to move for what conditions. Initially they'll probably give something more than the rest of the three"" and slowly they'll adapt to the market. And with this Peter Bellew who fired all malasian pilots and rehired for peanuts its not the best to tangle with. Why riyadhair is hesitating with its conditions I don't understand. Put it on the table your conditions and you'll see if people will come. After they'll reveal the conditions they can make proper plans.
A lot are eaiting for conditions and expect something if they don't meet the expectations they'll withdraw their applications.

[rudestuff]

Caveat: this is a rumour network! The other thing I heard is that they won't take anyone currently working in Saudi. Presumably to not leave Saudia etc screwed for pilots...

[Youwish]

I agree, Riyadh air should come out with some numbers, all these rumors will eventually be up with a huge disappointment for all the pilots who are expecting “unrealistic” conditions.. and they will not be willing to join anymore.

[Sky Hooker]

The numbers cited here are outlandish. Why do pilots believe they will receive such a high salary simply because they are purchasing football players? Due to the extreme shortage of pilots, the United States is the only country in the world where salaries have increased. Nevertheless, when you are the world's reserve currency, can print indefinitely, and impose a 20% inflation rate on the populace, it is inevitable that salaries will increase.
I want to know what individuals are smoking. Hopium, I suppose.
People should have realistic expectations, and with SAUDIA undergoing major changes over the past few years, why do people believe PIF will simply pay high salaries?
We must wait to see what package is available. People should refrain from publishing meaningless numbers and instead observe what the market dictates.
Nobody is irreplaceable, and there are numerous pilots willing to offer their services at a discount and skip the line. It has occurred in the past and will occur in the future.

[TBL Warrior]

The numbers cited here are outlandish. Why do pilots believe they will receive such a high salary simply because they are purchasing football players? Due to the extreme shortage of pilots, the United States is the only country in the world where salaries have increased. Nevertheless, when you are the world's reserve currency, can print indefinitely, and impose a 20% inflation rate on the populace, it is inevitable that salaries will increase.
I want to know what individuals are smoking. Hopium, I suppose.
People should have realistic expectations, and with SAUDIA undergoing major changes over the past few years, why do people believe PIF will simply pay high salaries?
We must wait to see what package is available. People should refrain from publishing meaningless numbers and instead observe what the market dictates.
Nobody is irreplaceable, and there are numerous pilots willing to offer their services at a discount and skip the line. It has occurred in the past and will occur in the future.While it is important to acknowledge that the current discussions about RIA’s salaries are mere speculation until concrete information is published by RIA, it is worth considering the context of other airlines’ salary offerings. For instance, Emirates is now paying around $13,000 per month for a First Officer and $18,000 per month for a Captain. Given this, it may not be unreasonable to assume that RIA could potentially offer salaries in line with the previously rumored figures.



This becomes particularly relevant when comparing the appeal of living in Riyadh versus Dubai and the goal of creating an Emirates 2.0. Such ambitions, similar to their 2030 vision etc, require substantial financial investment in not only being able to attract but retain skilled professionals.

Therefore, a salary range of USD 20-25,000 for a Captain at RIA could be a possibility. However, if RIA decides to outsource to regions like the subcontinent and Africa, they may be able to pay less than Emirates while still finding an adequate supply of pilots.

As you rightly mentioned, there are plenty of pilots who would be willing to accept lower salaries in order to expedite their career progression, but is that what RIA wants? I feel the answer will be revealed soon.

[kungfu panda]

While it is important to acknowledge that the current discussions about RIA’s salaries are mere speculation until concrete information is published by RIA, it is worth considering the context of other airlines’ salary offerings. For instance, Emirates is now paying around $13,000 per month for a First Officer and $18,000 per month for a Captain. Given this, it may not be unreasonable to assume that RIA could potentially offer salaries in line with the previously rumored figures.



This becomes particularly relevant when comparing the appeal of living in Riyadh versus Dubai and the goal of creating an Emirates 2.0. Such ambitions, similar to their 2030 vision etc, require substantial financial investment in not only being able to attract but retain skilled professionals.

Therefore, a salary range of USD 20-25,000 for a Captain at RIA could be a possibility. However, if RIA decides to outsource to regions like the subcontinent and Africa, they may be able to pay less than Emirates while still finding an adequate supply of pilots.

As you rightly mentioned, there are plenty of pilots who would be willing to accept lower salaries in order to expedite their career progression, but is that what RIA wants? I feel the answer will be revealed soon.

They won't outsource anything. The long term plan will be to employ only Saudi Pilots. That's impossible in the short term.
Salary of $20,000-$25,000 will happen but that includes flight pay and accommodation.

[A320LGW]

Emirates aren't paying $13000 for first officers. The most recent salary at the roadshows was £7000/month all in (85hrs). Perhaps higher if they restarted the accommodation allowance but they said they've no plans to at the moment.

[TBL Warrior]

Emirates aren't paying $13000 for first officers. The most recent salary at the roadshows was £7000/month all in (85hrs). Perhaps higher if they restarted the accommodation allowance but they said they've no plans to at the moment.

Sorry, I should have mentioned those are cashed out figures for EK.

[condorbaaz]

RIA website appears to be down

for the data to be uploaded...

[Flaperon777]

Very shortly after joining, the lure of the higher salaries remains just a number in your bank account whilst the actual reality of the Saudi desert sets in.
The month of Ramadan is quite the killer for any non Muslim, lack of any form of alcohol ( legally )throughout the 12 months becomes a real downer, ladies men have no place to go, ni bars no pubs, the only decent eating places are holes in the wall owned by poor Asians who serve the lowest earning laborers primarily, NOTHING gets done administratively in SV in the kingdom, NO SAUDIA in any position ever does his job except play Snapchat all day long etc etc etc. The list of sandpaper rubbing your skin is endless.
And worst of all most of the FO’s who will be seconded into riyadhair would be from SAUDIA. And they would be the ones who have missed their upgrades in SAUDIA. And then they become a force to reckon with in the cockpit !!! A very very dark force. Bordering on safety every single flight. A complete lack of any basic form of CRM.

These are simply some of the things you may want to consider before seeing the $$$ apparently being offered. Allowances and perks are very very difficult to claim here due to a very poor IT systems. Everything is done the old school way ie paper and stamp. And every person in a position of even the smallest authority expects at least 500-1000 SAR for a stamp or a signature. If their laziness doesn’t kill you first their sheer blatant corruption will ! It’s best not to consider the ‘perks’ while doing your calculations. Because practically you won’t receive any.
So unless you need the $$ real bad ( which is not assured either ), please do not leave your present gig. The salary paid monthly is never ever correct. And as if we don’t have enough on our hands already, we also have to re calculate our payslips every month. And not that anything comes out of the calculation and corrections. You will never see a single SAR more than what they think is right !
Enjoy the brown …

[Hitchiker]

So unless you need the $$ real bad ( which is not assured either ), please do not leave your present gig. The salary paid monthly is never ever correct. And as if we don’t have enough on our hands already, we also have to re calculate our payslips every month. And not that anything comes out of the calculation and corrections. You will never see a single SAR more than what they think is right !
Enjoy the brown …
Nothing more correct!
evrybody could please stop drooling about this place…5k-7000 or even 10 ,apparently been offered as Flaperon777 said ,more than what EK,QR or EY are paying would be still not worth the move.
Although it should be (maybe)a commuting contract you would still have to spend there 18-20 days a month…
Only the big shots in every business are treated well,because if they lose them who will run the show???
On top of that they need to show ,apparently once again,that everything is changing.
You will sign a contract without any value.
If you want I will tell you about many recruitment companies,businesses etc which dealt with those people there and lost their money when those fellas decided not to pay anymore despite contracts signed.
if you have some dignity and you are not desperate please do not allow them to screw you with some fresh cash waved ,it is not a civilized place like most the others around ,Rules and regulations are in place just to make it look what in reality is not and if you go you will Learn it the hard way.
And of course i believe that they will offer maybe a bit more than the other ME3 but not that much
Unless your name is Ronaldo or a big one belonging to some business they are interested at,you are just a timed slave and also Ronnie & co are like the latest pets they need to show off.

[778Skywalker]

I do agree to a certain extent as you guys are mentioning to think critically before joining, not because I don't think you will be treated fairly but just by adding up the numbers.

I do believe we all know what to expect living in a foreign country with tremendous cultural differences and lack of friends aka social life, however this might be what is on offer. -Many expats end up in compounds and become a community and live on their own little island and it offers a lot of possibilities if one is open for it......see it as an adventure! -but yes be realistic about it and know what you are getting yourself into.

The money aspect,- they should actually mention that sooner rather than later as non disclosure tends to awaken mistrust and is not a successful way forward. Remember they are looking for rated, highly experienced wide body captains here with wast international experience and attached to that are private lives and family aspects as well.
Who in their right mind would leave a wide body position in the western world or for that matter the more liberal areas in the Middle East unless there is something more appealing offered at Riyadh Air, -this could be monetary or career prospects (upgrade, TRI/TRE development etc.). If there are 100s of unemployed 777/787 captains out there willing to work for like 12000:- USD/month and spend 8 days off in Riyadh (as was initially mentioned) without friends and family I must have missed something. Yes a few are around since the folding of Alitalia and maybe the demise of Norwegian long haul but a lot of hiring has been in the cards last 1-2 years so most are probably absorbed already.

If you are investing 30 billion (more than the whole GDP of Iceland) I would assume you want to build a high end/quality product from scratch, I doubt low cost ops cockpit personal is the right way forward at this point. Eventually the airline will be competing with the other ME carriers and things will be different and indeed competitive edge will be required. I don't personally think the silence around this helps and it would be better to be transparent. What's the use to engage in selections just to see say 80% not accepting the offer....how do you turn around and say "Hey we just improved the conditions" without loosing trustworthiness?

Future shall tell but looking at the Korean deal with 19/11 commute and around 15000:- USD/month incl. tax certificate to show at home seems more realistic and would not hit the bottom line at Riyadh Air very hard. That being said as there are no taxes deducted at source they would have to increase pay accordingly.

[Xulu]

I do agree to a certain extent as you guys are mentioning to think critically before joining, not because I don't think you will be treated fairly but just by adding up the numbers.

I do believe we all know what to expect living in a foreign country with tremendous cultural differences and lack of friends aka social life, however this might be what is on offer. -Many expats end up in compounds and become a community and live on their own little island and it offers a lot of possibilities if one is open for it......see it as an adventure! -but yes be realistic about it and know what you are getting yourself into.

The money aspect,- they should actually mention that sooner rather than later as non disclosure tends to awaken mistrust and is not a successful way forward. Remember they are looking for rated, highly experienced wide body captains here with wast international experience and attached to that are private lives and family aspects as well.
Who in their right mind would leave a wide body position in the western world or for that matter the more liberal areas in the Middle East unless there is something more appealing offered at Riyadh Air, -this could be monetary or career prospects (upgrade, TRI/TRE development etc.). If there are 100s of unemployed 777/787 captains out there willing to work for like 12000:- USD/month and spend 8 days off in Riyadh (as was initially mentioned) without friends and family I must have missed something. Yes a few are around since the folding of Alitalia and maybe the demise of Norwegian long haul but a lot of hiring has been in the cards last 1-2 years so most are probably absorbed already.

If you are investing 30 billion (more than the whole GDP of Iceland) I would assume you want to build a high end/quality product from scratch, I doubt low cost ops cockpit personal is the right way forward at this point. Eventually the airline will be competing with the other ME carriers and things will be different and indeed competitive edge will be required. I don't personally think the silence around this helps and it would be better to be transparent. What's the use to engage in selections just to see say 80% not accepting the offer....how do you turn around and say "Hey we just improved the conditions" without loosing trustworthiness?

Future shall tell but looking at the Korean deal with 19/11 commute and around 15000:- USD/month incl. tax certificate to show at home seems more realistic and would not hit the bottom line at Riyadh Air very hard. That being said as there are no taxes deducted at source they would have to increase pay accordingly.

From an EK perspective, this was initially hotly discussed in the flight deck due to the possibility of commuting and/or part-time contracts. That is the driver. That's what people want. When that turned out to be untrue, no one spoke about Ria ever again. To get EK or other widebody pilots to leave legacy carriers and live in Riyadh full-time for a startup, you'd need to offer way more.

Would need an extra $5k/m for the risk that they fire/redundant after a year. $5k/m for the effort of moving. $5k/m for the disaster of operations at a new startup. On top the premium for living in Riyadh, another $5k/m. So in total $30k+ needed to be attractive over EK - honestly I don't think I would join even for that.

This wont be on offer anyway, so reality is they will only get misfits and desperados. Same as Qatar, only more extreme.

[kungfu panda]

From an EK perspective, this was initially hotly discussed in the flight deck due to the possibility of commuting and/or part-time contracts. That is the driver. That's what people want. When that turned out to be untrue, no one spoke about Ria ever again. To get EK or other widebody pilots to leave legacy carriers and live in Riyadh full-time for a startup, you'd need to offer way more.

Would need an extra $5k/m for the risk that they fire/redundant after a year. $5k/m for the effort of moving. $5k/m for the disaster of operations at a new startup. On top the premium for living in Riyadh, another $5k/m. So in total $30k+ needed to be attractive over EK - honestly I don't think I would join even for that.

This wont be on offer anyway, so reality is they will only get misfits and desperados. Same as Qatar, only more extreme.

I don't think that you guys really understand what Riyadh Air is about. The vast majority of Pilots at Riyadh air will be Saudi. Vision 2030 while being largely about moving away from reliance on Oil and moving towards other industries like tourism, is also about Saudiisation. The Saudi's do not want Riyadh Air to be another Emirates, full of Expat crew. Saudi Arabia has a very young and rapidly growing population with about 12% unemployment. Projects like Riyadh air are designed to provide high quality jobs to young Saudi's.
They will take the foreign Pilots they need but will replace them with Saudi's as fast as possible.

This is exactly what's happened at Saudia. 5 years ago Saudia had 500+ Expat Pilots, now it's down to around 100 or less. The Saudi government sends thousands of young people to the United States to do Aviation related degrees, puts them through the US ATP and returns them to Saudi Arabia to become First Officers.

There will be a short golden period where experienced Captains can make a good amount of money with Riyadh Air before retirement. But everyone dreaming of a great Career, commuting etc with Riyadh Air is doing just that - dreaming.

[Flaperon777]

All initial managment, first officers and trainers for the first 24-36 months at RIA will belong to SV. Having been seconded to Ria.
Needless to say that only the leftovers and unwanted from SV would be shunted out to the ‘other airline’ with a wink and a “Manager Operations” kind of portfolio to look forward to.

And thus the muddy culture of Saudia is bound to mirror reflect and inculcate itself into the core dna of RIA.
Which would be the exact reason most expat pilots joining today would be leaving within 12 months …

[778Skywalker]

If you are right which you very well might be then how on earth are Ria going to get airborne ever..... Supply/demand will have to make its way here to make that happen which then would suggest a 25000-30000:-/Month renumeration and a 19/11 commute roster, and then we will all be in line waiting I guess....

If not we will keep on dreaming and so will Ria of ever getting airborne, somehow these things tend to meet somewhere.

[Qbix]

you are forgetting about all the Indians, Pakistanis etc pilots coming from an utter ****holes. No offence here, I have many friends amongst them but it is what it is. For these guys Riyadh is still an upgrade in their lifestyles. If offered on top reasonably good salary RIA will fill their seats fast. And they don't need 700 pilots tommorow. For many its 4 years pain but sets for life.
It is all relevant.

[778Skywalker]

you are forgetting about all the Indians, Pakistanis etc pilots coming from an utter ****holes. No offence here, I have many friends amongst them but it is what it is. For these guys Riyadh is still an upgrade in their lifestyles. If offered on top reasonably good salary RIA will fill their seats fast. And they don't need 700 pilots tommorow. For many its 4 years pain but sets for life.
It is all relevant.
Air India is presently recruiting pilots outside of India as they can't fill the left seats with Indians.... I myself passed the Sim check some time back but will only be available in 3 months so I fail to see an abundance of available Indian pilots. Air India deal is 10000 USD/month and a tax receipt and an additional 2400 USD taxed Pension +5000 USD Bonus/Year 6w on 2 w off paid tickets home. I doubt RIA can attract pilots unless the contract is considerable better than the AI contract.....

[kungfu panda]

If you are right which you very well might be then how on earth are Ria going to get airborne ever..... Supply/demand will have to make its way here to make that happen which then would suggest a 25000-30000:-/Month renumeration and a 19/11 commute roster, and then we will all be in line waiting I guess....

If not we will keep on dreaming and so will Ria of ever getting airborne, somehow these things tend to meet somewhere.
Well. Yes that's pretty well right. The overall package will be around $25,000 and if you have kids in education then the overall package maybe $30,000.

[FlightDetent]

Funny thing I learned, studying the EU labour law for crews. (ain't the FTLs!). The number of annual hard-OFF days is calculated to exactly match (no less) the standard business days pattern over the year.

I.e.

52 weeks in a year, four of them are vacation ----->>>>> 28 hOFF
48 weeks remaining, 2 weekends each ----->>>>> 96 hOFF
Public off days (national festivals etc, bank hols) ---->>>>> around 4 per year

= equals = 128 hard-OFF per year. That's what a labour-law worker in a standard job would get and crews need to receive too. To be delivered _AT_HOME_BASE_.

If on a standard job, you went working on Monday at 4 a.m. without seeing your family and stay the whole week on the road to return on Friday by 10 while they are asleep, you are still getting 128 (124 min) wholehearted hard days off. And it won't feel like much.

Please consider that when making up one's mind about any 120-off commuting option. It is much different from crews who LIVE WITH FAMILY (and social circle) at the base because those can enjoy more regular home time through the rostering pattern (4-2 5-3 or whatever overlayed on top of the above). BTW long-haul with rest days downroute reduces that dramatically.

But specifically for commuting... count the chickens you'd be getting..... not forgetting the travel days will be your responsibility. Every airline dispatch and HR just LOVE to have crew available at whim.

[kungfu panda]

I don't get where this commuting idea comes from. Emirates, Etihad, Flydubai, Qatar, Saudia, Flyadeal, FlyNas. Nobody does commuting because they decided that it was not cost effective. Saudia tried 20/10 for a while but stopped it.
Riyadh Air have already made clear that their jobs will not be commuting.

[778Skywalker]

I don't get where this commuting idea comes from. Emirates, Etihad, Flydubai, Qatar, Saudia, Flyadeal, FlyNas. Nobody does commuting because they decided that it was not cost effective. Saudia tried 20/10 for a while but stopped it.
Riyadh Air have already made clear that their jobs will not be commuting.
Again supply and demand will decide what happens here. Recession, layoffs and abundance of pilots = RIA deal with no commute looks attractive. Massive shortage of pilots and RIA will have to sugar the deal or simply stay grounded. Ask yourself will you move to Saudi Arabia on an uncertain (maybe short until Saudis take over) gig or a more certain gig closer to home be it Aerologic, Norse, or any airline offering a commute contract. It's very simple really, 10 years ago even Americans were heading over to the dessert for work, now they don't know how to crew their own airlines. Europe has a shortage too of highly qualified pilots but those with low hours/jet time in relation to age are still in a weak spot but then again RIA is hardly looking to recruit them! If it's not a commute contract it for sure will be a good financial incentive,-the alternative is not going to get RIA flying short term.

[TBL Warrior]

I don't think that you guys really understand what Riyadh Air is about. The vast majority of Pilots at Riyadh air will be Saudi. Vision 2030 while being largely about moving away from reliance on Oil and moving towards other industries like tourism, is also about Saudiisation. The Saudi's do not want Riyadh Air to be another Emirates, full of Expat crew. Saudi Arabia has a very young and rapidly growing population with about 12% unemployment. Projects like Riyadh air are designed to provide high quality jobs to young Saudi's.
They will take the foreign Pilots they need but will replace them with Saudi's as fast as possible.

This is exactly what's happened at Saudia. 5 years ago Saudia had 500+ Expat Pilots, now it's down to around 100 or less. The Saudi government sends thousands of young people to the United States to do Aviation related degrees, puts them through the US ATP and returns them to Saudi Arabia to become First Officers.

There will be a short golden period where experienced Captains can make a good amount of money with Riyadh Air before retirement. But everyone dreaming of a great Career, commuting etc with Riyadh Air is doing just that - dreaming.

One might argue that this has been EK’s vision long term too, localisation that is. But we are still all here nearly 40 years later 🤷🏼‍♂️

[masalama]

The working age population(18-60) in SA is approximately 21 million whereas the total Emarati population in UAE is 1.5 million , not sure how many are working age. Obviously , with better opportunities in the UAE and a smaller base , there has been a strong dependency on expat workforce which will decrease over time as the state strongly encourages and incentivizes the local population to take up jobs that have been traditionally expat only.

In the Saudi case , having a large young unemployed population is not an option that any government would like and they should and would focus on "Saudisation" , it makes perfect sense for the future of SA.
Masalama

[TBL Warrior]

The working age population(18-60) in SA is approximately 21 million whereas the total Emarati population in UAE is 1.5 million , not sure how many are working age. Obviously , with better opportunities in the UAE and a smaller base , there has been a strong dependency on expat workforce which will decrease over time as the state strongly encourages and incentivizes the local population to take up jobs that have been traditionally expat only.

In the Saudi case , having a large young unemployed population is not an option that any government would like and they should and would focus on "Saudisation" , it makes perfect sense for the future of SA.
MasalamaYour argument holds weight, and it's important to compare similar sized, or larger, demographic groups when discussing employment rates. South Korea, for instance, has a significantly larger working-age population, approximately 37.7 million people, compared to Saudi Arabia. In addition, China's working-age population is a staggering 897 million. But both countries (had pre covid) have a noticeable expatriate presence in their airlines.

Turning our attention to Saudi Arabia, there's no denying that the country has a considerable number of young, unemployed individuals.

However, the key question is how many among them are genuinely interested in seeking employment and not just cushy government jobs where they can spend their time on their phones, as pointed out in an earlier post.

From this group, how many are willing to commit to becoming pilots, and more specifically, are they prepared to take on challenging schedules, such as a 2am turn to India in the monsoon?

If other Middle Eastern airlines are any indication, locals prefer layover trips to places like Vienna (if they turn up at all) while expatriates handle the night turns and undesirables.

Therefore, considering these productivity complexities, I think it’s fair to say there will be some requirements for xpats here and there :)

[kungfu panda]

Your argument holds weight, and it's important to compare similar sized, or larger, demographic groups when discussing employment rates. South Korea, for instance, has a significantly larger working-age population, approximately 37.7 million people, compared to Saudi Arabia. In addition, China's working-age population is a staggering 897 million. But both countries (had pre covid) have a noticeable expatriate presence in their airlines.

Turning our attention to Saudi Arabia, there's no denying that the country has a considerable number of young, unemployed individuals.

However, the key question is how many among them are genuinely interested in seeking employment and not just cushy government jobs where they can spend their time on their phones, as pointed out in an earlier post.

From this group, how many are willing to commit to becoming pilots, and more specifically, are they prepared to take on challenging schedules, such as a 2am turn to India in the monsoon?

If other Middle Eastern airlines are any indication, locals prefer layover trips to places like Vienna (if they turn up at all) while expatriates handle the night turns and undesirables.

Therefore, considering these productivity complexities, I think it’s fair to say there will be some requirements for xpats here and there :)

"Some Requirements " is the correct statement.
And I can assure you that young Saudi's see the job of Airline Pilot as highly prestigious and a huge number wish to follow this career path. The Saudi government is willing and are sponsoring many, while many more are funding their Pilot training privately.

As I have previously posted, even prior to Covid, there were 6000-7000 young Saudi's under sponsorship in the United States.

Having said that. In the short term there will be a high demand especially for expat Captains. The numbers of Aircraft arriving in Saudi Arabia will overwhelm the current supply of Saudi Captains.

In total, in Saudi Arabia, you currently have around 220 Airliners. With Saudia set to receive 70+, Riyadh Air 40, FlyNas 250, Flyadeal 30- over the next 5 years. Saudi Arabia as whole will nearly triple it's Airline industry.

As I have said previously. And it's accurate. If you come here as a First Officer, don't expect to be upgraded and don't complain when you're not. You will, with 100% certainty, be gazumped by all Saudi's ready for upgrade.

[effe]

Any news about the process?

[Daniellejdkk]

Guys any news for the recruitment? Anyone being called for interview?

[AEA737]

Guys any news for the recruitment? Anyone being called for interview?

Yes, I know a guy who knows a guy who has been interviewed online. He is TRE/TRI from a Gulf carrier. He wasn't given any salary info, but was told to "not believe those figures on those Whatsapp messages" 😄
Yeah, right. They are going to pay same or less than the Gulf three and expect pilots to move to Riyadh.
He'll be interviewed in person in Riyadh in a future.

[778Skywalker]

Yes, I know a guy who knows a guy who has been interviewed online. He is TRE/TRI from a Gulf carrier. He wasn't given any salary info, but was told to "not believe those figures on those Whatsapp messages" 😄
Yeah, right. They are going to pay same or less than the Gulf three and expect pilots to move to Riyadh.
He'll be interviewed in person in Riyadh in a future.
Interesting indeed, personally it seems like an easy choice! Qatar flies daily to most European destinations so Europeans will find a way to go home now and then in-between. Considering it will take at least 5 years before Riyadh Air has any network worth mentioning for a possible visit home, I assume 10000 USD/month and 8 days off won't bring much pilots to Riyadh. Obviously there must be an abundance of experienced and type rated 787/777 pilots unemployed in their view......

[flap1]

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/gulfs-newest-airline-riyadh-air-launches-ambitious-recruitment-drive---targets-700-pilots-in-3-years-1.1693365984762

[allaru]

Air India is presently recruiting pilots outside of India as they can't fill the left seats with Indians.... I myself passed the Sim check some time back but will only be available in 3 months so I fail to see an abundance of available Indian pilots. Air India deal is 10000 USD/month and a tax receipt and an additional 2400 USD taxed Pension +5000 USD Bonus/Year 6w on 2 w off paid tickets home. I doubt RIA can attract pilots unless the contract is considerable better than the AI contract.....

You guys have completely lost the plot if you think $10 a month is a good gig for a wide body Capt based in India with commuting tickets in Economy!

10k was standard 737 contract pay 25-30 years ago and 14k was normal for wide bodies.

you guys have to get with the picture and start to realise your worth and start saying NO to these ridiculous low ball offers.

[Youwish]

You guys have completely lost the plot if you think $10 a month is a good gig for a wide body Capt based in India with commuting tickets in Economy!

10k was standard 737 contract pay 25-30 years ago and 14k was normal for wide bodies.

you guys have to get with the picture and start to realise your worth and start saying NO to these ridiculous low ball offers.


How do i give a +1?

[TBL Warrior]

You guys have completely lost the plot if you think $10 a month is a good gig for a wide body Capt based in India with commuting tickets in Economy!.

Despite all the money in the world- every month, enduring such a life would still be intolerable. The situation of constantly being over-transmitted, the absence of callsign usage and pilots attempting to handle air traffic control on their own. Always needing to know the destination and speed of other aircraft, followed by “confirm” after lengthy readbacks leads to some of the poorest radio telephony etiquette anywhere in the world. And that’s just overflying the place! God help any soul that would have to suffer that existence.

[ilariomaybe]

😂😂😂

[mutt]

Very shortly after joining, the lure of the higher salaries remains just a number in your bank account whilst the actual reality of the Saudi desert sets in.
The month of Ramadan is quite the killer for any non Muslim, lack of any form of alcohol ( legally )throughout the 12 months becomes a real downer, ladies men have no place to go, ni bars no pubs, the only decent eating places are holes in the wall owned by poor Asians who serve the lowest earning laborers primarily, NOTHING gets done administratively in SV in the kingdom, NO SAUDIA in any position ever does his job except play Snapchat all day long etc etc etc. The list of sandpaper rubbing your skin is endless.
And worst of all most of the FO’s who will be seconded into riyadhair would be from SAUDIA. And they would be the ones who have missed their upgrades in SAUDIA. And then they become a force to reckon with in the cockpit !!! A very very dark force. Bordering on safety every single flight. A complete lack of any basic form of CRM.

These are simply some of the things you may want to consider before seeing the $$$ apparently being offered. Allowances and perks are very very difficult to claim here due to a very poor IT systems. Everything is done the old school way ie paper and stamp. And every person in a position of even the smallest authority expects at least 500-1000 SAR for a stamp or a signature. If their laziness doesn’t kill you first their sheer blatant corruption will ! It’s best not to consider the ‘perks’ while doing your calculations. Because practically you won’t receive any.
So unless you need the $$ real bad ( which is not assured either ), please do not leave your present gig. The salary paid monthly is never ever correct. And as if we don’t have enough on our hands already, we also have to re calculate our payslips every month. And not that anything comes out of the calculation and corrections. You will never see a single SAR more than what they think is right !
Enjoy the brown …


you really don't have a clue what SAUDI Arabia is like in 2023.

[B737ngmax]

Despite all the money in the world- every month, enduring such a life would still be intolerable. The situation of constantly being over-transmitted, the absence of callsign usage and pilots attempting to handle air traffic control on their own. Always needing to know the destination and speed of other aircraft, followed by “confirm” after lengthy readbacks leads to some of the poorest radio telephony etiquette anywhere in the world. And that’s just overflying the place! God help any soul that would have to suffer that existence.

You seem to be mentioning your existing flight instructor job somewhere in states 😂

[Capn Rex Havoc]

you really don't have a clue what SAUDI Arabia is like in 2023.

Flaperon777 - Yes, you have no Idea, I had a layover in Riyhad a few months ago. OMG, what a transformation. The old earth forests, the pleasant cool afternoon sea breezes. The night clubs, a bustling hive of activity, drinks flowing, scantily clad women fawning all over me. ACDC had a one night concert, they quickly took down the gallows and set up a great sound stage. The bourgeoning wine industry is going to have Australia, France and Italy very nervous. RIA will have to get up and going quick time to cater for all the incoming tourists to this new Ibiza.
​​​​​​​

[Highflyy]

They will. Very soon :ok:

[WingtipVortex]

It'll be interesting to seeing how this airline runs with a COO who has a CV of significant incompetence.

99.9% of the UK pilots in his last company voted to that effect.

[ninerzero]

It'll be interesting to seeing how this airline runs with a COO who has a CV of significant incompetence.

99.9% of the UK pilots in his last company voted to that effect.
I do agree and i don't trust this guy at all. Look what he did in Malaysia. Furthermore he lost a lawsuit against his former employer Ryanair. He is everything but a friend of pilots.

[Camel herder]

Agree with the above post 100%, not to be trusted at all.

[kungfu panda]

Agree with the above post 100%, not to be trusted at all.

Yes. The COO is a big concern. He's not an appointment that you'd have made if you wanted to attract Pilots.

[Dunce]

Maybe they should take Alan Joyce instead😂..... He is available, after all....

[Samantha0898]

I do agree and i don't trust this guy at all. Look what he did in Malaysia. Furthermore he lost a lawsuit against his former employer Ryanair. He is everything but a friend of pilots.


he certainly wasn’t a fan favourite at EZY either

[kungfu panda]

Anybody considering coming to work as a Pilot in Saudi Arabia now needs to understand exactly what is happening.

A few years ago Saudi was one of the last bastions of the Airline Pilot job being a Great and well respected career. Now it's honestly easier for a Saudi National to become an Airline Pilot than to become an Uber driver.

Banks in Saudi will loan money to young Saudi's very easily to go and complete their Commercial- Instrument rating in the US. After 6 months they're back in the Kingdom on the A320. 3 years later they have an A320 Command and 5 years later a widebody command.

There will be a glut of Saudi Pilots in the coming years.

I'll be fair as well. The Saudi F/O's are a good standard. Compared with European and US standards.I do question basic knowledge compared to guys who've been through US Aviation degrees or EASA examinations.

[TBL Warrior]

A few years ago Saudi was one of the last bastions of the Airline Pilot job being a Great and well respected career. Now it's honestly easier for a Saudi National to become an Airline Pilot than to become an Uber driver.

Banks in Saudi will loan money to young Saudi's very easily to go and complete their Commercial- Instrument rating in the US. After 6 months they're back in the Kingdom on the A320. 3 years later they have an A320 Command and 5 years later a widebody command.

Would love to see the Austronauts reaction to this 🤯

[KKAARR]

you are forgetting about all the Indians, Pakistanis etc pilots coming from an utter ****holes. No offence here, I have many friends amongst them but it is what it is. For these guys Riyadh is still an upgrade in their lifestyles. If offered on top reasonably good salary RIA will fill their seats fast. And they don't need 700 pilots tommorow. For many its 4 years pain but sets for life.
It is all relevant.
It pretty much seems like you've been seeking sh*t and have been only visiting the ****tiest places of these countries.
You seek sh*t , you get sh*t you racist bug !

[WrldWide]

It pretty much seems like you've been seeking sh*t and have been only visiting the ****tiest places of these countries.
You seek sh*t , you get sh*t you racist bug !
What was said that was not accurate? My reading of the post was that companies v location was the S***hole. Why so sensitive?

[oceancrosser69]

Did anybody get further information from them after sending the application? My status showing „application received“ but nothing since almost 2 month…..

[Hotclown]

obvious it was about people and places

[numichem]

You shouldn't expect to see things move at a std pace here like the established companies. This company is a baby with a huge support from the king and it will take time to pave the way to wider recruitment that'll involve pilots at a high scale. For now, they may be hiring the instructors or pilots with management roles, however it's not the time for line pilots yet.

[Qbix]

It pretty much seems like you've been seeking sh*t and have been only visiting the ****tiest places of these countries.
You seek sh*t , you get sh*t you racist bug !
Why are you calling me a racist my friend?
I am only stating facts about cities where majority live. I know you have beautiful nature, country side, mointains, sealine, etc.. but cities are utter garbage and dirt with unbelievable level of poverty.
Been to all major cities in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Again, nothing against people. Just stating the facts. Don't call me a racist for that.

[Hotclown]

Aren't the UK sinking in poverty? you better educate your self before attacking people and their beloved countries

[JPJP]

Certainly not the case. Females are flooding the service industry, and I can attest that the industry's experience and quality of service are exceptional. After women have never had the opportunity to work or drive, give them time.
In the 1960s and 1970s, it took time for the west's diverse social movements, largely based in the United States, to seek equal rights and opportunities and greater personal freedom for women.
Current members of Saudi Arabia's Generation Z were educated in the West and have a different mentality and skill set than the old guard. MBS recognizes that Saudis have enormous potential and that, with the right assistance and opportunities, society will change and progress toward Vision 2030. Capital is already there and will be used to help the KSA grow and create jobs. Be patient and don't rely on your perception of the past; instead, anticipate what Saudi hospitality will offer you once it is given the chance to flourish and reach its full potential.


Great stuff. User name checks out. Regarding your post on progressive societal change and the amazing future - will a bone saw be part of the minimum equipment list on RIA aircraft ? Or will it be BYO type of situation ? Asking for a friend.

Cheers.

[kungfu panda]

Great stuff. User name checks out. Regarding your post on progressive societal change and the amazing future - will a bone saw be part of the minimum equipment list on RIA aircraft ? Or will it be BYO type of situation ? Asking for a friend.

Cheers.

Careful what you wish for. Saudi Arabia could be much, much worse under alternative leadership. I think that the current government is pretty good in virtually all respects given the history of the region.
If you want to destabilise this Saudi leadership then you're a fool.

[Foxtangox]

Everybody here got email from Riyadh air?

[Daniellejdkk]

Everybody here got email from Riyadh air?

what does it says?

[Foxtangox]

Thank you for expressing an interest in flight deck opportunities at Riyadh Air and for submitting your application. With over 14,000 applicants for flight deck crew positions at Riyadh Air, this is an extremely competitive process, and we truly value your time and effort in considering us as a future employer.



We are currently recruiting for various instructor roles within the flight crew community to meet our initial operational needs.



Having reviewed your application, we recognize the potential and qualifications you bring to the table and in the coming months anticipate releasing further details about Captain and First Officer opportunities. Given your background, we believe that these roles might align more closely with your expertise and aspirations.



We are genuinely excited about the future at Riyadh Air and the prospects it holds for talented professionals like yourself. Your passion for the aviation sector is evident, and we sincerely hope to have a conversation about these upcoming opportunities in the coming months.



Thank you for your understanding and patience. We'll ensure to keep you informed about these forthcoming roles and sincerely hope to revisit your application in that context. Until then, we wish you continued success in your aviation journey.

[Daniellejdkk]

Thank you for expressing an interest in flight deck opportunities at Riyadh Air and for submitting your application. With over 14,000 applicants for flight deck crew positions at Riyadh Air, this is an extremely competitive process, and we truly value your time and effort in considering us as a future employer.



We are currently recruiting for various instructor roles within the flight crew community to meet our initial operational needs.



Having reviewed your application, we recognize the potential and qualifications you bring to the table and in the coming months anticipate releasing further details about Captain and First Officer opportunities. Given your background, we believe that these roles might align more closely with your expertise and aspirations.



We are genuinely excited about the future at Riyadh Air and the prospects it holds for talented professionals like yourself. Your passion for the aviation sector is evident, and we sincerely hope to have a conversation about these upcoming opportunities in the coming months.



Thank you for your understanding and patience. We'll ensure to keep you informed about these forthcoming roles and sincerely hope to revisit your application in that context. Until then, we wish you continued success in your aviation journey.

same here! So they want trainers initially before starting recruitment of fo and cpt

[778Skywalker]

Everybody here got email from Riyadh air?
Yup got it. Guess we will hear more in the coming months

[flap1]

https://simpleflying.com/riyadh-air-narrowbody-order-expected-coming-months/

[ninerzero]

Yup got it. Guess we will hear more in the coming months

Some guys are being invited already. I would appreciate if someone could share his interview experience. 🙏

[areoreus]

Do you know who? Perhaps only 777/787 Type Rated or TRIs. That's my guess.
​​​

[Tarzanboy]

Any news on rosters and pay?

[flap1]

No news in this case, bad news!
don't expect much specially when they are so proud to announce that they had over 14k applications 🙄

[TBL Warrior]

No news in this case, bad news!
don't expect much specially when they are so proud to announce that they had over 14k applications 🙄

While RIA may publicise having thousands of applications, the underlying truth is far more complex.

The industry, particularly post-COVID, is facing a unique challenge. While there's a large pool of individuals eager to land a job or enhance their current roles, the number of those who can effectively demonstrate their suitability and successfully pass a panel interview snd sim assessments is far less than the total applicants.

It's not merely about drawing in prospective employees, but also persuading skilled and seasoned individuals to relinquish their stable roles at other airlines. In the case of RIA, this task will necessitate a significant incentive - particularly to entice the experienced Boeing & Airbus crew they are seeking.

This leads to a situation where there might be a vast pool of applicants, but only a small fraction are truly qualified and willing to make the move.

For instance, at the airline I currently work with, roughly out of every 10 applicants assessed, we are lucky if 2 receive offers of employment. This comes down to a lack of English proficiency, suspicious or fraudulent documentation (no need to mention which country) or an absence of any CRM skills. I'd venture to say that out of the 14,000 applicants, about 50% could be immediately eliminated due to the above.

Thus, while the raw numbers may seem impressive, the reality of hiring and retention in the airline industry is a much more nuanced challenge in present times.

[Youwish]

Not to mention that it is always the same “14000” who are applying everywhere… so those who are proficients are not joining that particular airline for sure if they have a better offer

[Truetoga]

I think most of those candidates are just curious to find out the package. Once they see that its not worth leaving their current stable outfit for an uncertain airline in an unstable area I can probably imagine 80% of those “qualified” applicants will back out.

Not to mention a possible war breaking out very close doesn’t augur well for travel to that side of the world. Might not be the best time to join an airline with no history during these uncertain times no matter the figures they throw.

[ilariomaybe]

Hey, hear some guys are already hired , what’s the deal? Any news? All is sooooo quiiiiietttt 🤐

[tinfish]

Everyone lost interest. Fed up with all the speculation and zero substance. 🙄. Hope some solid info will come out soon. I see road shows for Cabin Crew happening in London and Dubai. Offering a Riyhad basing.

[Hotclown]

everyone lost interest. Fed up with all the speculation and zero substance. 🙄. Hope some solid info will come out soon. I see road shows for cabin crew happening in london and dubai. Offering a riyhad basing.

i did not lose any intrest

[flap1]

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/riyadh-air-set-for-100-boeing-max-order-in-dubai-to-extend-fleet-1.1699695614276

[Smithy175]

Good, hopefully watershed moment in Europe and the T&C's are elevated on par with US to prevent a mass exodus to RIA

[Youwish]

The gulf airlines are know not to be proactive but to wait the catastrophe to happen to start thinking about what to do… Qatar will hold the overtime again? 🤣
interesting times ahead indeed

[My Rifle and I]

Hey, hear some guys are already hired , what’s the deal? Any news? All is sooooo quiiiiietttt 🤐

Ria poached the Emirates 777 DCP to run flight ops. Thats tells you everything you need to know recruitment wise.

The 'project pilots' are doing 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off at approx 100,000 SAR a month.

[Flyingtaxidriver]

With their growth plans will 14000 pilots he enough,

[Truetoga]

Heres the link

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-11-14/riyadh-air-ceo-says-narrowbody-jets-order-soon-video

[WrldWide]

Apparently latest interview says they have 45000 pilots registered with all their details…sounds like a lot of experienced current and type rated crew.


The first part of this statement means that is how many people have applied. It is by no means any indication of qualification and or experience. Of course the interviewee would like us all to believe that pilots are beating down the door to get in, but how could this be if no one knows what the actual package includes?

[Truetoga]

The first part of this statement means that is how many people have applied. It is by no means any indication of qualification and or experience. Of course the interviewee would like us all to believe that pilots are beating down the door to get in, but how could this be if no one knows what the actual package includes?

My thoughts exactly. Maybe they included cabin crew with that 🙃 I don’t even think the application form lets you apply without ticking if you have met the 2000hr req on type.

[Qbix]

Apparently latest interview says they have 45000 pilots registered with all their details…sounds like a lot of experienced current and type rated crew.

also they’re offering market rates to move to saudi…so i think they’re banking on getting quality guys to move to saudi based on being part of “riyadh story”, not to mention confidently relying on boeing to deliver on time..

This guy is a lunatic if he thinks that he has 45.000 pilots to choose from. If their requirements are 787 TR then I can bet you that he doesn't have more than 2000 applications which most of are just guys checking what's on the table. If you include 777 rated guys that number is much higher but again not all are willing to live in Riyhad especially those that built nice seniority with their carriers (pension salary etc). If you make 20k plus pension have family well settled why on earth would you like to go there? For the sake of 5k extra?

[Camel herder]

45000 pilots, I don't think so.... lol

[allaru]

We all know that there are not that many type rated and experienced pilots around willing to give up their seniority, jump ship and move to Saudi.
"Many Nationalities" good luck with your multi cultural aspirations and sorting out the wheat from the chaff, certifying qualifications from dodgy places, fake licenses, parker pen hours and the biggest issue which will be interviewing 30 candidates to find that only one is suitable. Established carriers can do this as their ongoing recruitment numbers are fairly low and they typically only need non type rated FOs. When you need to recruit large numbers of experienced Captains and FOs you won't have the time or the resources to low ball and fluff about. You need to target reliable demographics with experience and time on type, and for that you will need to pay.
Market rates, good one. Even with the + 30% loading which is the standard expat starting offer for relocating from the Gulf to Saudi it won't go close to attracting experienced pilots.
To quote STC "Good luck to them is what I say".

[Hitchiker]

If you make 20k plus pension have family well settled why on earth would you like to go there? For the sake of 5k extra?

Maybe if they will offer 15on/15off and 20k to line pilots somebody will go.Consider all type rated local pilots from neighboring countries who have already applied hired but Moving from westernized places to Saudi will be a tough call also for the above mentioned guys.

​​​​​​​This guy is a lunatic if he thinks that he has 45.000 pilots to choose from.
Man RIA are paying this gentleman a fortune to push this outfit and Saudi up,what do you think he should say”where the hell am I going to find experienced pilots willing to join this place?”He would probably lose his job and something else in a heartbeat.Remember what somebody wrote here about a bone saw…
He gets paid to nod and smile…That’s all he needs and wants to do.
buyers beware.

[Hitchiker]

Not to mention the added risk of being part of a “startup” in a country with few or no “legal protections”
that’s maybe the most important point….all the ME3 fired pilots,sure it was not pleasant to be laid off,got paid until last cent with additional money given too in some cases .In that part of the desert contract validity and labor laws are not legally binding,if the boss has decided that is over for some reason all the polished pages of your contract,hands shaken ,kisses ,my friend etc will disappear,unless you are a big shot .
Do your researches and tell me if I am wrong .
better less with dignity that more without self respect
safe skies

[mutt]

You are forgetting that pilots are a profession that needs to be nationalized, so they will draw from the local market. Its the other local airlines that will suffer.

[Truetoga]

You are forgetting that pilots are a profession that needs to be nationalized, so they will draw from the local market. Its the other local airlines that will suffer.

true. But I doubt Saudia would be happy if they deplete half their pilots…and probably there must be some agreement to avoid that also between the two, especially when they also are expanding. I doubt Saudi has many available jobless and current type rated pilots available, they might have cadets being trained but the last thing a startup needs is inexperienced guys flying widebodys from day 1

[mutt]

Once they have 25 years of service, saudia can’t stop them leaving and taking a nice pension.

[Twiglet1]

15 on 15 off isn't that part time....

[GearDown320]

Lots of hot air blowing, too much hype with no substance. Don't you guys think?..

Imho, RIA will get a rude awakening when they ACTUALLY start their recruitment for line guys and find that their delayed recruitment, AND late release on information of their package got most people (who actually qualify their requirements) tired of their hot air and are unwilling to make the jump OR simply just moved on

[WrldWide]

15 on 15 off isn't that part time....
Not if you put in 85 hrs in that 15 on.

[weimaraners]

Anybody know if they have started hiring Line Pilots already? Has the hiring process started or it's still on the making?

[Qbix]

Anybody know if they have started hiring Line Pilots already? Has the hiring process started or it's still on the making?

Latest I heard is that next year they will start interviewing LPs. Around May.

[twtiger]

I think it will be a while. Plus still no announcement about the narrowbody fleet. I won't be surprised if they go with Airbus considering they are advertising for Airbus and Boeing TR guys and most large middle eastern carriers have both Airbus and Boeing fleets.

[tinfish]

Airbus experience is only for FO. Capts only 777 and 787.


I think it will be a while. Plus still no announcement about the narrowbody fleet. I won't be surprised if they go with Airbus considering they are advertising for Airbus and Boeing TR guys and most large middle eastern carriers have both Airbus and Boeing fleets.

[tinfish]

If they really had applications from 45000 pilots then why is the job still advertised on the website.

[tinfish]

Seems reasonable. Where did you get this onfo from?

[Twiglet1]

So I guess no fatigue risk regs at RIA then...

[santacruz]

If they really had applications from 45000 pilots then why is the job still advertised on the website.

because as most of us have said already a lot of the 45000 are just fishing for conditions.

there won’t be a lot of serious interest unless the money is seriously good or a really good commuting pattern is offered.

[olster]

I wonder what has happened to the Max order? Supposedly announced at the Dubai Air Show. Just a bit odd to go from imminent to radio silence.

[TBL Warrior]

because as most of us have said already a lot of the 45000 are just fishing for conditions.

there won’t be a lot of serious interest unless the money is seriously good or a really good commuting pattern is offered.


I genuinely believe the situation will mirror China's pre-Covid approach.

Considering plenty left EK for a package of babysitting Chinese cadets, invasive medicals and smoked fulled cockpits for around $20,000 a month, it’s clear there is a market for those willing to endure less-than-ideal conditions for substantial financial gain.

[FlightDetent]

for around $20,000 a month, it’s clear there is a market for those willing to endure less-than-ideal conditions for substantial financial gain. 20k _and_ MoMo, providing about 170 days net home back in your country. That is the deal breaker every airline thread here seems to come back to somehow, and rightly so.

RIA simply needs to significantly increase the number of 'family days' compared to EK and the applicants will be sleeping on the sidewalk to get in. But it's too early for them to create any such rostering scheme and deliver on it.

BTW, what are the rules for factoring heavy-crew hours in the Kingdom, (in-seat, bunk,..)?

[flap1]

A brand new company looking for pilots from scratch at market rates... only pilots can define this market rates. But I guess ....
there's always a cheaper whore next door!!!

[Hotclown]

i work for flydubai and i cant wait to move to ria

[The Rage]

Becareful what you wish for, I won't get overly excited about RIA just yet. . The person hired as COO has had quite a history of screwing pilots over. Secondly, Last I heard from friends in the Kingdom, The GACA (CAA) is based on the FAA licence, meaning unless you have a FAA licence, you'll need to redo the whole ATPL including the Type Rating, which may take up to 10 months. And not to mention the dreaded GACA oral exams.

[FlightDetent]

Not if you put in 85 hrs in that 15 on. Many takers if the rate is 220$/net and you can buzz off back to own homeland after the duty streak.

[Pif Paf]

[QUOTE=The Rage;11554066, The GACA (CAA) is based on the FAA licence, meaning unless you have a FAA licence, you'll need to redo the whole ATPL including the Type Rating, which may take up to 10 months. And not to mention the dreaded GACA oral exams.[/QUOTE]
I am sure there will be some sort of work around this to get all the current, type rated pilots from Emirates who apply on board quickly, bearing in mind head of flight ops is ex Emirates. They need an experienced core of pilots to get airline going. Having a bunch of pilots known by head of flight ops and trained to level he also understands is a bonus. This work around will probably include type rated ex EY and QR .
More importantly to get these pilots to come in the first place they need to clearly state the terms and conditions early. Lots of conjecture here but no facts. Obviously a commuting contract would be a game changer in the region. The trouble is will they tell us early enough, will it be good enough and will they keep the contracts in place once they have the pilots they need. It’s all about communication and trust, things that are not in great supply in the region

[simba82]

Goodluck finding qualified Engineers huge shortage at the moment

[kungfu panda]

Goodluck finding qualified Engineers huge shortage at the moment

I don't think they'll have a problem, Saudia doesn't have an Engineer shortage. They sponsor 1000's of Saudi's to go to the United States to train in these fields. They have 1000's of Saudi's going through Pilot training.

The only shortage there'll be, and it won't last long, is highly experienced longhaul Captains. The lifestyle in Riyadh will prevent 90% of the current Captain applicants ever coming. Riyadh is suitable for Muslims and those wishing to have "no life".

I strongly doubt that commuting is on the table. Certainly not in the first place.

Schooling will be a major Problem. There's one British School and one American school, both with long waiting lists. Other schools, just forget, you don't want to send your kids there.

[Hitchiker]

It’s all about communication and trust, things that are not in great supply in the region

Trust???????There??????
Why the hell do they pay that much then….it’s called backstabbing allowance 😂

[fireball_23]

Not sure where this information comes from, but you don’t need 10 months to convert your non FAA license into GACA. This comes from my personal experience in the kingdom.

[Truetoga]

I think everyone will be greatly dissapointed once the package is announced. They have already said market rates. So don’t expect different from
other middle east airlines. Why do you think they haven’t mentioned any package? This way they can see the interest and then tailor the package…if they had lots of interest already then the package will be standard. Then they will adjust if they don’t get the quality.

also commuting is unlikely especially without an established network for crew to fly in and out easily on time and frequently. I think any EK EY or QR crew that move there would need a psych evaluation unless its not SUBSTANTIALLY more money for the hassle of leaving a “western” living for “compound” living

[TBL Warrior]

The GACA (CAA) is based on the FAA licence, meaning unless you have a FAA licence, you'll need to redo the whole ATPL including the Type RatingThe FAA, along with most GCC countries, does not recognise foreign type ratings. This poses a significant challenge in terms of recruitment if true. For instance, even if an EK Captain holds an FAA license, they would lack the B787 rating on their FAA license because 1) Emirates only provides the 777 rating, not the group rating and 2) the FAA would not recognize the 777/787 rating, necessitating a retraining for the 787 rating via an FAA-approved training programme and self funding the rating - upwards of US$40,000.

Furthermore, even if a pilot has an FAA license with the 787 rating, they would still need to undergo the respective GACA license conversion and rating. Consequently, if RIA stipulates this as a prerequisite, the pool of eligible candidates could be drastically reduced to Etihad or Qatar pilots who have paid to add the 787 to their FAA license, or pilots flying N registered 787’s such as those from Delta, American or United - who are unlikely to be contemplating a move to a Saudi start-up.

In other news, apparently 14/14 is the latest rumour. I will leave it open for future discussion henceforth.

[Mason Stone]

I think there is lots of wishful thinking going on here. You have to remember who you are dealing with. Peter Bellew. He was taken to court by Ryanair for lying and pushed out of easyJet for the disaster he oversaw.

He really really doesn't like pilots. My guess is after they are crewed, the contract will be "refreshed" for "flexibility" and you can either take the pay cut or walk. They'll do it when the market is tight so people have no where to go.

PB's history is widely available online, there is a reason they hired him specifically.

[Jetlag_777]

No idea about the source of this information but still sharing!… Happy landings!

Update on *Riyadh Air*

So these numbers are not the official ones but has been *confirmed* to be *approximately right*

Riyadh Air 14/14

Basic : 53000 SAR / month
TRE : 8000 SAR
60 hrs / m : 15000 SAR
Transport : 2500 SAR
Phone/ internet : 500 SAR
Housing : 8500 SAR

Schooling : ( 120000 a year for 2 kids).
Bonus : 100000 SAR / year)
Relocation: 1 month
EO Service : 1 month/ year
Tickets 288000 SAR/ year.

TOTAL : 87500 SAR /month + schooling+ bonus+ tickets.

Tickets are for commuting in business class+ 2 ALT for 4 family members ( no staff tickets until 2026).

TOTAL = 87500 SAR/ month = 21800 € = 23300 USD = 85000 QAR = 86000 AED

[Sam Ting Wong]

I believe conditions at RIA will be sobering.

[kungfu panda]

No idea about the source of this information but still sharing!… Happy landings!

Update on *Riyadh Air*

So these numbers are not the official ones but has been *confirmed* to be *approximately right*

Riyadh Air 14/14

Basic : 53000 SAR / month
TRE : 8000 SAR
60 hrs / m : 15000 SAR
Transport : 2500 SAR
Phone/ internet : 500 SAR
Housing : 8500 SAR

Schooling : ( 120000 a year for 2 kids).
Bonus : 100000 SAR / year)
Relocation: 1 month
EO Service : 1 month/ year
Tickets 288000 SAR/ year.

TOTAL : 87500 SAR /month + schooling+ bonus+ tickets.

Tickets are for commuting in business class+ 2 ALT for 4 family members ( no staff tickets until 2026).

TOTAL = 87500 SAR/ month = 21800 € = 23300 USD = 85000 QAR = 86000 AED

That looks quite close but the 14/14. That will not happen.
End of service we know already because it's saudi law. 2 weeks per year for the first 5 years thereafter 1 month per year. Based on basic salary.

[Hitchiker]

Riyadh Air 14/14

if so QR,EK and EY should start being seriously worried!
but this part time sounds strange since the Kingdom target will be to let you spending money there
as the ME3 do ,anyway let’s see.
​​​​​​​

[flyTheBigFatLady]

Becareful what you wish for, I won't get overly excited about RIA just yet. . The person hired as COO has had quite a history of screwing pilots over. Secondly, Last I heard from friends in the Kingdom, The GACA (CAA) is based on the FAA licence, meaning unless you have a FAA licence, you'll need to redo the whole ATPL including the Type Rating, which may take up to 10 months. And not to mention the dreaded GACA oral exams.

you just made the essential point
if a manager is hired with such a history, even been publicly traceable, and still gets the job, is hired for a reason. Despite the fact there are no Labour rights in that region.

[Hitchiker]

you just made the essential point
if a manager is hired with such a history, even been publicly traceable, and still gets the job, is hired for a reason. Despite the fact there are no Labour rights in that region.
…..self explanatory!
You don’t need to do the atpl from scratch as long as you have 2500 hrs pic/jet time,
If I am not wrong,so it will be only GACA oral exam on aircraft systems.
H.

[SOPS]

if so QR,EK and EY should start being seriously worried!
but this part time sounds strange since the Kingdom target will be to let you spending money there
as the ME3 do ,anyway let’s see.


​​​​​​​Im not sure about the ME 3 being worried. How many would actually want to go and live in the Kingdom?

[Truetoga]

Im not sure about the ME 3 being worried. How many would actually want to go and live in the Kingdom?

Exactly this. Most captains in the ME probably have established families with kids in school and established lives. Its not a single decision, its a joint decision to uproot everyone and have your wife sitting in a compound for 365 days a year…compared to the life in dxb or abu dhabi..a significant change of lifestyle. I doubt any money would be worth the aggravation in those cases

[TBL Warrior]

Exactly this. Most captains in the ME probably have established families with kids in school and established lives. Its not a single decision, its a joint decision to uproot everyone and have your wife sitting in a compound for 365 days a year…compared to the life in dxb or abu dhabi..a significant change of lifestyle. I doubt any money would be worth the aggravation in those casesMoving to Riyadh is not an appealing option for many. For example, my wife is from the region and has no desire to live there. Therefore, I would have to either commute, or find a new spouse. 😕

Besides, I recall how many Sama pilots used to reside in BAH and drive to DMM for work.

Although Saudi Arabia has undergone many changes since 2010, Riyadh remains an unpopular place to live, even among Saudis - just look at Saudia and JED.

This lends credence to the 14/14 roster, and if true would be the only way for most foreigners to seriously consider making the move RIA.

[SOPS]

Moving to Riyadh is not an appealing option for many. For example, my wife is from the region and has no desire to live there. Therefore, I would have to either commute, or find a new spouse. 😕

Besides, I recall how many Sama pilots used to reside in BAH and drive to DMM for work.

Although Saudi Arabia has undergone many changes since 2010, Riyadh remains an unpopular place to live, even among Saudis - just look at Saudia and JED.

This lends credence to the 14/14 roster, and if true would be the only way for most foreigners to seriously consider making the move RIA.

This (maybe fantasy) 14/14 roster. Who are you planning to commute with? I doubt from Day 1, RIA is going to have lots of destinations to let you go happily home every 14 days. So will that mean buying your own tickets on other airlines to get home? I have no idea, just throwing the question into the ring.

Frankly, I can’t see them attracting many people, except perhaps from the Sub Continent.

[mutt]

@SOPS, didn’t you read this part “Tickets 288000 SAR/ year.”.

As for Riyadh and things to do, well you could attend a Metallica concert if you were there tomorrow? So definitely no point comparing the era of SAMA with today.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

This (maybe fantasy) 14/14 roster. Who are you planning to commute with? I doubt from Day 1, RIA is going to have lots of destinations to let you go happily home every 14 days. So will that mean buying your own tickets on other airlines to get home? I have no idea, just throwing the question into the ring.

Frankly, I can’t see them attracting many people, except perhaps from the Sub Continent.

spot on
14/14 ain’t happening
market rate and best. Best case 22/10 or 28/14

[Qbix]

I am wondering how much longer ppl will be stroking each other with these whoever know coming from numbers.
It's always the same: I heard from a friend that had a friend whose friend went for the interview...
If I attended the interview and was given the offer the numbers would be here tomorrow. wtf is the big deal with saying what are ACTUAL t&c?
I am sure that nothing has been offered to anyone yet. simple as that. and the conditions will be as the rest of the ME operators. there is always enough desperados willing to fly shiny big planes. or quick career progressors with creative pens... bobbing bobbing

[kungfu panda]

If it is 14/14 then the Saudi's from Saudia will take the jobs. Contrary to popular belief, they do have freedom to change Airlines. Even 20/10 was very popular among the Saudi's.
Saudiisation rules do mean that Saudi nationals will get priority on any job. This is not the UAE. There are plenty of Saudi's wanting these jobs. I understand that there'll be a short period where expats are a "necessary evil".


The more attractive they make it for expats, the more attractive it becomes to Saudi's from Saudia.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Would it not make sense to assume pay and conditions are very similar to Saudia ( aka not that great) ?

Maybe it's also worth a thought that besides some really cool powerpoints all these projects, including the new airport, do not exist yet.
It might all be just some sheik's wet dream in the end.

And then there is the question of the size of the market as a whole. Air India will get a new airport and loads of airframes, then there is the expansion of Turkish, on top of massive plans of all the other Gulf carriers.

They are all chasing the same customer..

[flyTheBigFatLady]

If it is 14/14 then the Saudi's from Saudia will take the jobs. Contrary to popular belief, they do have freedom to change Airlines. Even 20/10 was very popular among the Saudi's.
Saudiisation rules do mean that Saudi nationals will get priority on any job. This is not the UAE. There are plenty of Saudi's wanting these jobs. I understand that there'll be a short period where expats are a "necessary evil".


The more attractive they make it for expats, the more attractive it becomes to Saudi's from Saudia.

its simply numbers and t&c should be out latest in spring to summer 2024 as it take somewhere 7-9 month from handing in the application - selection process - resigning last job- moving and going throu the training to the line check

so they are going to have the one airframe they have to sit on the ground for almost 1,5 years now

if they still start early 2025

[flyTheBigFatLady]

If it is 14/14 then the Saudi's from Saudia will take the jobs. Contrary to popular belief, they do have freedom to change Airlines. Even 20/10 was very popular among the Saudi's.
Saudiisation rules do mean that Saudi nationals will get priority on any job. This is not the UAE. There are plenty of Saudi's wanting these jobs. I understand that there'll be a short period where expats are a "necessary evil".


The more attractive they make it for expats, the more attractive it becomes to Saudi's from Saudia.

i don’t understand why people keep dreaming on 14/14

please make the math on a 14/14 roaster from an airlines prospektive - even they would be willing to give it that’s not feasible in terms of planing - especially in a long haul operation

a simple europe layover consumes 35-48 hours with all the rest required
going to the us between 70-90 hours total time where a crew is blocked for that flight
14 day is 336hours so either those 14 days the **** is going to be flown out of the individual or it is totally impractical to roaster hardly anything
please get a fellow in possion of a EK roaster and make the math what is possible or not as those fellows have though schedules on a mix of mid / long / ultra long flying

14/14 can’t be a planing option - never ever

[EGGW]

The 14/14 I have heard directly from someone recruited by RIA in the last month. Lives in EU, and TRE 787. so there you have it.

EGGW.

[TBL Warrior]

The 14/14 I have heard directly from someone recruited by RIA in the last month. Lives in EU, and TRE 787. so there you have it.

EGGW.

I hear a mic drop and …… 🦗

[hunterboy]

Maybe 14/14 would work for a ground based instructor ? I.e lots of SIM work.

[Qbix]

The 14/14 I have heard directly from someone recruited by RIA in the last month. Lives in EU, and TRE 787. so there you have it.

EGGW.
but you haven't heard anything about the package... 😂

[SpamCanDriver]

The 14/14 I have heard directly from someone recruited by RIA in the last month. Lives in EU, and TRE 787. so there you have it.

EGGW.

For the headhunted TRE's they need to start the operation, absolutely.

For Joe Bloggs line pilots? We will see

[magyar_flyer]

As others I have a very hard time to see how they could have 14/14 working.
Can anyone simulate such a schedule?
​​​

[Jetlag_777]

As others I have a very hard time to see how they could have 14/14 working.
Can anyone simulate such a schedule?
​​​

I guess that the only way to fit 85 hs on this tight pattern is to be able to start flying from a base abroad and end your duty days flying out as an active pilot somewhere close to home (or home if lucky).

But only guessing as there’s no routes network and initial destination frequency published yet.

[Truetoga]

How are people expecting 14/14 to work when there are no routes or a proper established network? Unless they hire guys from specific countries where they already have a route.. then again if thats the case, you’re now unlikely to have a tax free income living elsewhere

[kungfu panda]

As somebody said. This may apply to a ground instructor. It's not going to be 14/14. Otherwise there'll be a revolution in which ISIS take control. Because Saudia, at best get 5 consecutive days per month.

Please guys, try not to believe any BS. The financials there, sound pretty close to the mark.

[Jack D]

You’ll be Sorreeeee!

[EGGW]

Nope, not a ground instructor. TRE, 787. Not sure why a friend would BS me. 14/14. Let the revolution begin…

EGGW.

[kungfu panda]

Nope, not a ground instructor. TRE, 787. Not sure why a friend would BS me. 14/14. Let the revolution begin…

EGGW.

Ok. Fair enough. I could be wrong. I have knowledge of Saudia but no knowledge of Riyadh Air.

Just let me say that I would be surprised if the 14/14 is included in the final package.

[Youwish]

Maybe now that they are not actually flying they can offer 14/14.. i mean, what are the pilots hired doing now?

[allaru]

I also have a friend who has signed a TRE contract and I can confirm it is 14/14 with a salary substantially higher than EK. If the same is offered to line pilots you may need to consider the following.

75 hours in 2 weeks is possible however good luck commuting on top of a compressed roster, it will kill you.
2 weeks off makes commuting to Dubai, Africa, Asia or Europe possible but forget commuting to further destinations such as South America, North America or Australia in 2 weeks.
If discounts are offered on Saudi their network may not cover your destination, and what class or priority will you get. If discounts are not offered you may want to check the cost of J class tickets from Saudi. If the allowance is 28000 that would cover one J class airfare to a close destination. It would not cover one long haul destination at current fares.
Fights are still crazy full to just about everywhere so you would need to allow extra time to return and be rested for your next night turn around to India.
My guess is that you will spend at least 1 or 2 of your 2 weeks off ie 2 month where you can't go home having dealing with the bureaucracy, ie expat stuff such as visa renewals, house rentals, medicals, drivers licenses, for you and any other dependents you may have there. Admin may not take 2 weeks however after you take 3 or 4 days out of the 14 doesn't leave you with a lot of commuting time.
If they are seeking experienced Captains they would be earning close to the proposed offer anyway, in the Gulf at least.

The offer would suit someone who has a close commutable location, but only if interline J class discounts are available. Commuting in Y is a definite no go for me.

[santacruz]

I also have a friend who has signed a TRE contract and I can confirm it is 14/14 with a salary substantially higher than EK. If the same is offered to line pilots you may need to consider the following.

75 hours in 2 weeks is possible however good luck commuting on top of a compressed roster, it will kill you.
2 weeks off makes commuting to Dubai, Africa, Asia or Europe possible but forget commuting to further destinations such as South America, North America or Australia in 2 weeks.
If discounts are offered on Saudi their network may not cover your destination, and what class or priority will you get. If discounts are not offered you may want to check the cost of J class tickets from Saudi. If the allowance is 28000 that would cover one J class airfare to a close destination. It would not cover one long haul destination at current fares.
Fights are still crazy full to just about everywhere so you would need to allow extra time to return and be rested for your next night turn around to India.
My guess is that you will spend at least 1 or 2 of your 2 weeks off ie 2 month where you can't go home having dealing with the bureaucracy, ie expat stuff such as visa renewals, house rentals, medicals, drivers licenses, for you and any other dependents you may have there. Admin may not take 2 weeks however after you take 3 or 4 days out of the 14 doesn't leave you with a lot of commuting time.
If they are seeking experienced Captains they would be earning close to the proposed offer anyway, in the Gulf at least.

The offer would suit someone who has a close commutable location, but only if interline J class discounts are available. Commuting in Y is a definite no go for me.

My own personal opinion I agree with you regarding commuting but I think there will be plenty of takers for 14/14 if the salary is similar to EK. Plenty of unhappy people in the gulf who would try to commute to Europe on that if the money is similar to what they’re already earning!

[Romasik]

I also have a friend who has signed a TRE contract and I can confirm it is 14/14 with a salary substantially higher than EK. If the same is offered to line pilots you may need to consider the following.

75 hours in 2 weeks is possible however good luck commuting on top of a compressed roster, it will kill you.
2 weeks off makes commuting to Dubai, Africa, Asia or Europe possible but forget commuting to further destinations such as South America, North America or Australia in 2 weeks.
If discounts are offered on Saudi their network may not cover your destination, and what class or priority will you get. If discounts are not offered you may want to check the cost of J class tickets from Saudi. If the allowance is 28000 that would cover one J class airfare to a close destination. It would not cover one long haul destination at current fares.
Fights are still crazy full to just about everywhere so you would need to allow extra time to return and be rested for your next night turn around to India.
My guess is that you will spend at least 1 or 2 of your 2 weeks off ie 2 month where you can't go home having dealing with the bureaucracy, ie expat stuff such as visa renewals, house rentals, medicals, drivers licenses, for you and any other dependents you may have there. Admin may not take 2 weeks however after you take 3 or 4 days out of the 14 doesn't leave you with a lot of commuting time.
If they are seeking experienced Captains they would be earning close to the proposed offer anyway, in the Gulf at least.

The offer would suit someone who has a close commutable location, but only if interline J class discounts are available. Commuting in Y is a definite no go for me.
Guess what - we will see people unhappy with 0/30 roster (where 30 is a days off number) giving all kinds of reasons ;)

[tonker]

If you do 14/14 and live say in the UK, you’ll be liable to therefore pay tax on your earnings surely?

[Truetoga]

If you do 14/14 and live say in the UK, you’ll be liable to therefore pay tax on your earnings surely?

This exactly. What is the benefit of leaving say a stable job in Dxb or anywhere else only to go home and pay tax back home unless you live somewhere with a low tax band that still makes it worth it but then again its likely harder to commute to those countries and you’ll spend more time transiting etc…I can see them offering 14/14 for TREs as its mostly on the ground but line pilots? Or maybe its a hook….then change it a year later for everyone…when you’re trapped on probably a bond

[Emma Royds]

At the end of the day, if the carrier was serious about offering leading terms and conditions, then they would have painted the town red... or should I say purple? The Arabs love good PR and they would not have skipped a heartbeat in declaring their intention to outsmart their regional rivals and offer better terms and conditions. But they have failed to do so. Ask yourself why?

Tony Douglas said that with regards to future developments from a business perspective, it will be a case of 'tease and reveal'. Sadly, his HR department seems to have adopted the same mindset. If they can't nail their colours to the mast from the outset, how much trust do you have in them to honour what is placed before your eyes in the form of a 'contract'. It seems as if they are on a mission to try and offer the least needed to get the required numbers and all they are doing at the moment is gauging what the demand actually is.

[shukran]

What is the benefit of leaving say a stable job in Dxb

lol, people wouldn’t be considering leaving DXB if the jobs were stable to begin with 😬

[MathewP]

I also have a friend who has signed a TRE contract and I can confirm it is 14/14 with a salary substantially higher than EK. If the same is offered to line pilots you may need to consider the following.

75 hours in 2 weeks is possible however good luck commuting on top of a compressed roster, it will kill you.
2 weeks off makes commuting to Dubai, Africa, Asia or Europe possible but forget commuting to further destinations such as South America, North America or Australia in 2 weeks.
If discounts are offered on Saudi their network may not cover your destination, and what class or priority will you get. If discounts are not offered you may want to check the cost of J class tickets from Saudi. If the allowance is 28000 that would cover one J class airfare to a close destination. It would not cover one long haul destination at current fares.
Fights are still crazy full to just about everywhere so you would need to allow extra time to return and be rested for your next night turn around to India.
My guess is that you will spend at least 1 or 2 of your 2 weeks off ie 2 month where you can't go home having dealing with the bureaucracy, ie expat stuff such as visa renewals, house rentals, medicals, drivers licenses, for you and any other dependents you may have there. Admin may not take 2 weeks however after you take 3 or 4 days out of the 14 doesn't leave you with a lot of commuting time.
If they are seeking experienced Captains they would be earning close to the proposed offer anyway, in the Gulf at least.

The offer would suit someone who has a close commutable location, but only if interline J class discounts are available. Commuting in Y is a definite no go for me.
I wonder if you are stupid.I think you are.Much less than 14 days off id soldered by Korean Airlways.
Piss off and Salam Alaicun

[FQT2YS]

According to news I received today, EK looses a significant amount of B777 drivers (TRI/TRE’s in particular) to RXI. T&C’s seem to be significantly better!
Just talking about the first lot of people - assuming T&C’s will change in the future! However it looks like, they’re aggressively trying „to get a foot in the door”.
The VP Flight OPS is still very well connected with EK, as one could imagine 😉

[FQT2YS]

What is the benefit of leaving say a stable job in Dxb

Stable job in Dubai and the UAE??!! LoL - That’s a good one 😂

[Shazeem]

No surprises there.

mercenary
/ˈməːs(ɪ)n(ə)ri/

primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics.

[mutt]

My guess is that you will spend at least 1 or 2 of your 2 weeks off ie 2 month where you can't go home having dealing with the bureaucracy, ie expat stuff such as visa renewals, house rentals, medicals, drivers licenses, for you and any other dependents you may have there. Admin may not take 2 weeks however after you take 3 or 4 days out of the 14 doesn't leave you with a lot of commuting time.


Just about all above are online and take minutes, so don’t exaggerate a situation that doesn’t exist.

[FlightDetent]

If you do 14/14 and live say in the UK, you’ll be liable to therefore pay tax on your earnings surely?

Regardless of rostering arrangements, it seems Saudi Arabia: tax treaties - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/saudi-arabia-tax-treaties))

(3) Notwithstanding the preceding provisions of this Article, remuneration derived by a resident of a Contracting State in respect of an employment exercised aboard a ship or aircraft operated in international traffic shall be taxable only in that State


If that means what it says, buyer bloody beware ...

[flyTheBigFatLady]

Regardless of rostering arrangements, it seems Saudi Arabia: tax treaties - GOV.UK ( (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/saudi-arabia-tax-treaties)www.gov.uk)

(3) Notwithstanding the preceding provisions of this Article, remuneration derived by a resident of a Contracting State in respect of an employment exercised aboard a ship or aircraft operated in international traffic shall be taxable only in that State

If that means what it says, buyer bloody beware ...

means you are exclude from pay tax at home, but only if you can proof that your center of living is not in the uk - meaning you have to be away for a min of 187 days a year.

moat European countries have this exception in their double taxation agreements.
of you own a property and generate an income from it this exception is not applicable.
some states depend the application on your registration status, meaning if rent a place and live their with your family this counts as center of living and therefore you are taxable Independent of how many days you are abroad.
very sensible topic, can end bad very quickly - tax wise

[midnight cruiser]

Yes, breaking residency (and thus, tax liability) from the UK is exceptionally difficult and restrictive - far more limiting than a flat 187 days, more like 93(?), or even less. Work on the basis neither you nor your family can be back n the UK for anything more than just an extended holiday, at least for the first few years. Keeping your primary property vacant or let is ok, but also creates tax liabilities, including CGT if sold, which a resident wouldn't have to pay, so that's another gotcha

[FlightDetent]

means you are exclude from pay tax at home, but only if you can proof that your center of living is not in the uk - meaning you have to be away for a min of 187 days a year. I read that for the other logical end, a UK person needs to pay taxes at home (solely) w.r.t. to the provisions of the treaty. As long as they remain a 'tax resident' of their country.

The decades-repeated idea that 188 aborad days will do is one of the largest fallacies among professional pilots worldwide. Even bigger than the one about warm brakes for take-off.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

I read that for the other logical end, a UK person needs to pay taxes at home (solely) w.r.t. to the provisions of the treaty. As long as they remain a 'tax resident' of their country.

The decades-repeated idea that 188 aborad days will do is one of the largest fallacies among professional pilots worldwide. Even bigger than the one about warm brakes for take-off.

it is what Said, some countries don’t except the 187 days away anymore, some do, like mine.
apperently UK is one of them and sofar I know Sweden, Spain and Netherlands as well.
germay canceled the excemption for pilots being taxed only in the country of the operator.
geid is getting tighter nearly everywhere, especially with the raising number of ACMI companies.

[Truetoga]

I was told that the UK requires that you be in the country less than 90 midnights to avoid paying UK tax…

[JG1]

At the end of the day, if the carrier was serious about offering leading terms and conditions, then they would have painted the town red... or should I say purple? The Arabs love good PR and they would not have skipped a heartbeat in declaring their intention to outsmart their regional rivals and offer better terms and conditions. But they have failed to do so. Ask yourself why?

Tony Douglas said that with regards to future developments from a business perspective, it will be a case of 'tease and reveal'. Sadly, his HR department seems to have adopted the same mindset. If they can't nail their colours to the mast from the outset, how much trust do you have in them to honour what is placed before your eyes in the form of a 'contract'. It seems as if they are on a mission to try and offer the least needed to get the required numbers and all they are doing at the moment is gauging what the demand actually is.

Hear, hear! Absolutely well said.

[olster]

It always amazes me that the ‘package’ is a state secret until virtually the end of a recruitment process. The upshot is a potential massive waste of time for all parties if salary etc is not known prior to application.

[mutt]

Actually the final salary package sounds incredibly good and will be the highest in KSA for airlines, but i havent seen how it breaks down into individual elements.

[3Greens]

I was told that the UK requires that you be in the country less than 90 midnights to avoid paying UK tax…

told by whom? The standard residents test ,SRT, is freely available on HMRC website and a lot more reliable than advice received on internet forums..

[Truetoga]

told by whom? The standard residents test ,SRT, is freely available on HMRC website and a lot more reliable than advice received on internet forums..

I was told by a colleague that ACTUALLY does this, lives in Spain and works in the UK and has been doing so for years….maybe he and many others are doing it wrong (his Tax advisor does lots of UK pilot commuters)

An individual will be non-resident for a tax year if they are present in the UK at midnight at the end of the day for less than a specified number of days in the tax year in question, as follows:


For an individual who was resident in the UK for one or more of the preceding three tax years the limit is 15 days or
For an individual who was resident in the UK for none of the preceding three tax years the limit is 45 days or
For an individual who works abroad ‘full-time’ throughout the tax year (broadly, 35 hours per week on average), without a significant break (more than 30 days, with exceptions for annual, sick or parenting leave), the limit 90 days. Such an individual must also have less than 31 days in the tax year on which he does more than three hours’ work in the UK.

[flyer47]

I agree, wholeheartedly, with your eloquent post Emma. This will only make sense if you are from the U.K. and are of a certain age but it seems RIA is being run by Rodney and Del Boy Trotter. Their Reliant Robin has been repainted purple and now reads “Trotters Independent Trading Co. New York, Paris, Peckham, Riyadh”.

[Pif Paf]

And if you don’t want to live in Saudi on your days off, what options will be an available to get away? Id90 - economy with Saudi?
without proper tickets (firm, business) how will you get home?

[SOPS]

And if you don’t want to live in Saudi on your days off, what options will be an available to get away? Id90 - economy with Saudi?
without proper tickets (firm, business) how will you get home?

I made the same comment a few posts ago. I still don’t have an answer.

[Romasik]

And if you don’t want to live in Saudi on your days off, what options will be an available to get away? Id90 - economy with Saudi?
without proper tickets (firm, business) how will you get home?
Free or discount tickets on RIA, ZED on other airlines, low cost carriers and traveling as a mere mortal on any airline. This will be not a big deal considering the salary.
I do it every month. Sometimes twice a month.

[SOPS]

Free or discount tickets on RIA, ZED on other airlines, low cost carriers and traveling as a mere mortal on any airline. This will be not a big deal considering the salary.
I do it every month. Sometimes twice a month.

Considering the salary…..what salary??? No one knows what it is. It’s all fantasy.

[Pif Paf]

SOPS has a good point, no one knows the salary.

Romasik are you flying in Saudi at moment. There’s no information from RIA about any staff travel, how do you know? What are RIAs intended initial destinations?

Lots of people want to commute to places outside ME / Indian subcontinent. If you’re flying further afield the issue of staff travel comes into the commuting equation. It’s all very good having the alleged 14 on 14 off but pointless if you struggle to get home and then have problems trying to get back to Saudi. It could severely limit your days at home, which makes the contract less enticing.

[skyrocket]

https://www.bayt.com/en/saudi-arabia/jobs/global-engagement-pilot-70403238/

Any idea as to what the terms and conditions are for this Riyadh posting?

Thanks

[Flaperon777]

It will be ACM travel from Riyadh to your home base if your home is on the Saudi / RIA network. If not then it will be ACM travel to her closest city to your home and then it’s up to you. ID 90 or ZED or full fare.

ACM travel is when you travel on the GD and jump onto the airplane in uniform.
Buisness class not always guaranteed. And the process of getting the ACM authorized is a nightmare of sorts. Which in essence becomes a deal breaker for me.

[Pif Paf]

Yes, a deal breaker for many who need to travel further.
Having a nice 14 on 14 off roster is useless if you can’t get staff travel authorized and then have to sit on jumpseat for many hours!
let’s hope RIA take note and do something about it, preferably putting thecdtails on its recruitment the site so it’s open knowledge.

[Youwish]

Guys, your wet fantasies are hilarious. You are set for a big disappointment. Get real

[Sleepy Joe]

This all pure fantasy until RIA can confirm the actual Conditions of Service. I also believe everyone will be in for a disappointment.

[SOPS]

This all pure fantasy until RIA can confirm the actual Conditions of Service. I also believe everyone will be in for a disappointment.

I could not agree more. People are just making stuff up.

[cLeArIcE]

Been reading this thread with interest as I've had many captains down in Oz land mention RIA to me. Everyone Seems to be waiting to see what's on offer. The fact that it's all very hush hush just seems incredibly suspicious and more likely it won't be anything amazing. Lets be honest, RIA could drive a dump truck full if money up to your house, but if you actually have to live in Saudi.. who's going to go for that? Even after a long day of working for any of the world's worst low cost carriers, at least you go home and have a glass of red and a bacon sandwich.

[Xulu]

The only thing that will tempt people to take the risk of a new startup airline, based in an undeveloped construction site in the desert without alcohol....is flexible commuting, part-time contracts, or a harem of crew girls.

Without this, they need to offer $20-30k+ a month to get serious candidates. Even if only on a 3-year contract for ppl who want to top up their pension before retirement. Consider Emirates and Qatar are struggling to find new joiners for future growth with $15-20k/month packages, after having already scraped the barrel worldwide from every ****hole possible.

Yes, you may get a few desperados. But the risk of RIA going belly up, being fired, contract changed, fleet changed, housing debacles, major incidents, no expat lifestyle, or just a general mess/nightmare of an organisation dictate a large premium in cash or conditions.

Failing that, a training airline, with a complete focus on 0hr cadets like Wizzair/Ryanair etc. If you offer $10k a month tax free to young graduates, they could take it as a stepping stone. DEC's with no P1 time etc.

[kungfu panda]

The only thing that will tempt people to take the risk of a new startup airline, based in an undeveloped construction site in the desert without alcohol....is flexible commuting, part-time contracts, or a harem of crew girls.

Without this, they need to offer $20-30k+ a month to get serious candidates. Even if only on a 3-year contract for ppl who want to top up their pension before retirement. Consider Emirates and Qatar are struggling to find new joiners for future growth with $15-20k/month packages, after having already scraped the barrel worldwide from every ****hole possible.

Yes, you may get a few desperados. But the risk of RIA going belly up, being fired, contract changed, fleet changed, housing debacles, major incidents, no expat lifestyle, or just a general mess/nightmare of an organisation dictate a large premium in cash or conditions.

Failing that, a training airline, with a complete focus on 0hr cadets like Wizzair/Ryanair etc. If you offer $10k a month tax free to young graduates, they could take it as a stepping stone. DEC's with no P1 time etc.

In my experience, Pilots come out of the woodwork. I have never seen any Airline have serious problems getting sufficient Pilots.
Saudia went on a recruitment drive about 12 years ago. They got sufficient to fail half at interview and then fail another half during training.
The package will be over $20k though. No doubt about that.

[Aviation12345]

Any news about the narrow body order , are they going to order anything from Airbus ?

[Klimax]

Been reading this thread with interest as I've had many captains down in Oz land mention RIA to me. Everyone Seems to be waiting to see what's on offer. The fact that it's all very hush hush just seems incredibly suspicious and more likely it won't be anything amazing. Lets be honest, RIA could drive a dump truck full if money up to your house, but if you actually have to live in Saudi.. who's going to go for that? Even after a long day of working for any of the world's worst low cost carriers, at least you go home and have a glass of red and a bacon sandwich.

For a lot of pilots - these would be wise words.

[TBL Warrior]

For a lot of pilots - these would be wise words.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-24/alcohol-ban-saudi-arabia-opens-first-liquor-shop-signals-loosening-view

Well, that’s the red wine issue sorted !

[3Greens]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-24/alcohol-ban-saudi-arabia-opens-first-liquor-shop-signals-loosening-view

Well, that’s the red wine issue sorted !

well, not really. Unless pilots are given diplomatic status.

[3Greens]

I was told by a colleague that ACTUALLY does this, lives in Spain and works in the UK and has been doing so for years….maybe he and many others are doing it wrong (his Tax advisor does lots of UK pilot commuters)

up to you then fella, but the SRT on HMRCs own website runs to 154 Pages. If you think those few sentences covers you along with advice from a mate who’s doing it then you’re bulletproof I’m sure.

[Rug]

Any news about the narrow body order , are they going to order anything from Airbus ?


In the Bloomberg interview at the DAS, Tony Douglas said the narrow body order would "certainly" be announced by the end of the year (2023). Perhaps they've gone cold on Boeing or they're having trouble wringing delivery slots out of Airbus despite the deep pockets.

[Klimax]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-24/alcohol-ban-saudi-arabia-opens-first-liquor-shop-signals-loosening-view

Well, that’s the red wine issue sorted !

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68085190

I don´t like the sound of "monthly limitations" wtf is that all about. Limits. I mean - throw stones at me, but no limits please! Camel riders.
It´s still going to be a f@cking sh@thole, but now at least you can "escape" that reality with a brew! ;-) LMFAO

[CaptainProp]

I see many people commenting here, most (!?), have never been to KSA. You have no idea what you're talking about. Full on reverse rostering out of Europe, NA, Asia, Australia etc is the only way this will even remotely work for the vast majority out there. Don't be fooled by flashy news releases, shiny jets and promises of a "great expat lifestyle". This is not UAE, or even QR.

CP

[Romasik]

SOPS has a good point, no one knows the salary.

Romasik are you flying in Saudi at moment. There’s no information from RIA about any staff travel, how do you know? What are RIAs intended initial destinations?

Lots of people want to commute to places outside ME / Indian subcontinent. If you’re flying further afield the issue of staff travel comes into the commuting equation. It’s all very good having the alleged 14 on 14 off but pointless if you struggle to get home and then have problems trying to get back to Saudi. It could severely limit your days at home, which makes the contract less enticing.
Yes, I’m in Saudi and commute every month to Europe mainly on my own account and using ZED tickets, which will definitely be available with RIA. Plus whatever their own destinations. My point is that this is not a big deal considering projected RIA’s salaries.

[TBL Warrior]

In the Bloomberg interview at the DAS, Tony Douglas said the narrow body order would "certainly" be announced by the end of the year (2023). Perhaps they've gone cold on Boeing or they're having trouble wringing delivery slots out of Airbus despite the deep pockets.Ah yes, the eagerly anticipated order of narrow-body jets continues to linger, hinting at potential obstacles posed by industry limitations has undoubtedly resulted in the cold truth of reality meeting expectations. Regardless of one's financial strength, it's impossible to bypass the lengthy queue of an aircraft order backlog that stretches into the thousands. One might be able to get some MAX’s quicker, but do you really want the hassle of that junk?

Lastly, the entire scenario seemingly resembles a sociological study more than anything else. The conspicuous absence of any details regarding compensation or benefits suggests that they are merely just dipping their toes into the water to determine if they could sustain operations at industry-standard rates - which they claim tens of thousands have indicated they would, and importantly without knowing any details about the
renumeration, other than “8 days off in your hub of Riyadh”.

[Hotclown]

personally would move from Flydubai to Ria if the salary difference is 15k dirhams or more. other than that I'm happy to stay in Dubai

[kungfu panda]

Ah yes, the eagerly anticipated order of narrow-body jets continues to linger, hinting at potential obstacles posed by industry limitations has undoubtedly resulted in the cold truth of reality meeting expectations. Regardless of one's financial strength, it's impossible to bypass the lengthy queue of an aircraft order backlog that stretches into the thousands. One might be able to get some MAX’s quicker, but do you really want the hassle of that junk?

Lastly, the entire scenario seemingly resembles a sociological study more than anything else. The conspicuous absence of any details regarding compensation or benefits suggests that they are merely just dipping their toes into the water to determine if they could sustain operations at industry-standard rates - which they claim tens of thousands have indicated they would, and importantly without knowing any details about the
renumeration, other than “8 days off in your hub of Riyadh”.

On your first point. It's accurate. It's not so easy to get max's even this decade let alone Airbus's. Ryanair have said that they'd take any Max's that other Airlines don't want, that suggests that demand massively out ways supply.

Your second point is inaccurate, they are genuinely trying to get a massive Riyadh based Airline up and running. They tried with Saudia but it was unsuccessful really due in Western terms to labour disputes. Riyadh is a massive wealthy city without any international Airline of it's own.

[AIF73]

TRE started there in Jan, 15 on 15 off confirmed with a $27k salary per month. Unsure of other details.

[ThunderLizard]

TRE started there in Jan, 15 on 15 off confirmed with a $27k salary per month. Unsure of other details.
Throw in first class tickets and you got a deal

[Jetdriverp]

Can someone confirm that the retirement age will be 58.5 years because
it is 60 years but will be based off the Hijri calendar ?

[VAMY]

If you do 14/14 and live say in the UK, you’ll be liable to therefore pay tax on your earnings surely?

means you are exclude from pay tax at home, but only if you can proof that your center of living is not in the uk - meaning you have to be away for a min of 187 days a year.

moat European countries have this exception in their double taxation agreements of you own a property and generate an income from it this exception is not applicable.

some states depend the application on your registration status, meaning if rent a place and live their with your family this counts as center of living and therefore you are taxable Independent of how many days you are abroad.

Very sensible topic, can end bad very quickly - tax wise

FlightDetent, Tonker, & flyTheBigFatLady,

Depending on what is actually written in the relevant DTA between the UK & KSA will dictate where and in which fiscal jurisdiction income tax is liable on the specific class, or category, of income.

In this case the UK/KSA DTA 2009 will apply, specifically Article 15, Paragraphs (3), where the relevant Article and associated paragraph clearly stipulates which fiscal jurisdiction has the right to tax the specific type and categories of income earned. Assuming a flight crew job with RIA comes with an Iqama (KSA Residents Permit), which it will, then in the particular case of working for RIA on a 14/14 roster that would mean the fiscal jurisdiction that has tue right to tax that salary income, according to the relevant DTA, would be KSA. As the income tax rate in KSA is negligible that will mean very little income tax will be paid. Because the relevant DTA stipulates which fiscal jurisdictions has the right to tax that specific class of income, which will be KSA, then the UK does not have the right to tax that income.

In plain English. You won’t pay income tax on income earned as a pilot working for RIA, firstly because the DTA stipulates that KSA has the right to tax that income and not the UK and secondly because the personal income tax rate in KSA is ZERO that means you will effectively NOT be taxed on that income-all perfectly legal.

[3Greens]

Been reading this thread with interest as I've had many captains down in Oz land mention RIA to me. Everyone Seems to be waiting to see what's on offer. The fact that it's all very hush hush just seems incredibly suspicious and more likely it won't be anything amazing. Lets be honest, RIA could drive a dump truck full if money up to your house, but if you actually have to live in Saudi.. who's going to go for that? Even after a long day of working for any of the world's worst low cost carriers, at least you go home and have a glass of red and a bacon sandwich.
exactly this. Even those poor premier league footballers are starting to realise that down time in KSA is dull as listening to the call to prayer several times a day

[SpamCanDriver]

FlightDetent, Tonker, & flyTheBigFatLady,

Depending on what is actually written in the relevant DTA between the UK & KSA will dictate where and in which fiscal jurisdiction income tax is liable on the specific class, or category, of income.

In this case the UK/KSA DTA 2009 will apply, specifically Article 15, Paragraphs (3), where the relevant Article and associated paragraph clearly stipulates which fiscal jurisdiction has the right to tax the specific type and categories of income earned. Assuming a flight crew job with RIA comes with an Iqama (KSA Residents Permit), which it will, then in the particular case of working for RIA on a 14/14 roster that would mean the fiscal jurisdiction that has tue right to tax that salary income, according to the relevant DTA, would be KSA. As the income tax rate in KSA is negligible that will mean very little income tax will be paid. Because the relevant DTA stipulates which fiscal jurisdictions has the right to tax that specific class of income, which will be KSA, then the UK does not have the right to tax that income.

In plain English. You won’t pay income tax on income earned as a pilot working for RIA, firstly because the DTA stipulates that KSA has the right to tax that income and not the UK and secondly because the personal income tax rate in KSA is ZERO that means you will effectively NOT be taxed on that income-all perfectly legal.

Are you a UK tax specialist?
Because I'm fairly sure this is not correct, if you meet the SRT test you will be liable to pay UK tax.

[VAMY]

Are you a UK tax specialist?
Because I'm fairly sure this is not correct, if you meet the SRT test you will be liable to pay UK tax.

I’m enough of a taxation specialist to know how Article 15 of the DTA’s applies and particularly how Paragraph (3) of Article 15 of the treaty applies, relative to the criteria stipulated in Paragraphs (1) & (2) of said treaty, specifically in relation to fiscal residency in the various fiscal jurisdictions.

UK-KSA DTA. Bilateral Tax Agreement 2009.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/951x924/img_3642_f21b564ac50ed7caf322093141683253f4e86a89.jpeg

The taxation strategy utilised by many BA, Virgin Atlantic pilots, as well as other UK pilots, since the mid 1980’s, to effectively reduce their taxation on their pilot salaries to negligible amounts was engineered by myself back in the early 1980’s. In particular, how the bilateral DTA’s were applied between the UK and many EU fiscal jurisdictions. In this regard France comes to mind, followed by Spain, Portugal, Germany, Ireland & Switzerland.

Back in the mid 1980’s there were literally only a handful of UK pilots utilising the strategy, myself amongst them. A decade later there were hundreds utilising it. I’ve also advised UK and European aircrew colleagues, as well as others over the years, on how to utilise the strategy in fiscal jurisdictions in Hong Kong, North America, Singapore and Australasia.

I was first in Saudi Arabia in the early 1980’s. From 2012 I worked for Saudi Arabian Airlines, where I was amongst a handful of British expats working for that airline on one of their long haul fleets. I commuted each month as an ACM back to the UK & Europe. Throughout the 10 years I was with Saudi Arabian I didn’t pay any UK tax despite visiting every month, having a property there and submitting a Self Assessment Tax Return each year.

BTW, for those “not in the know”, Saudi Arabian was always the highest paid of ALL the Middle Eastern carriers by a long margin and had always been since the early 1980’s. If you were a top scale Captain at that airline, during that time period, then your salary was nearly the equivalent to that earned in the big American legacy carriers and tax free at that. It was the best paid flying job outside of the big USA legacy carriers by a big margin, excepting perhaps Cathy Pacific in its heyday when their “A” scale still existed.

So, in closing, I wouldn’t say I’m an expert on this particular taxation issue or strategy but without being immodest, I’m probably as much as an expert on this subject as you’ll find on this forum..

PS. If I were a betting man, then I’d wager that in 5 to 10 years time, RIA will the one of the best, highest paying, expatriate flying jobs around.

Throughout the late 1970’s, through to the mid 1990’, Saudi Arabian utilised reverse basing for their crews. They had crew bases in Athens, Bangkok, Jeddah, London, New York, Manila & Paris. My wife worked for them during that era, initially being based in Jeddah but subsequently based in Bangkok, then London. During that whole period her salary as a Flight Attendant with Saudia was more than my salary as a junior First Officer at British Airways.

The salary of a Saudia Captain during that era was easily double what an equivalent long haul BA Captain was earning.

Once RIA gets going and starts to expand rapidly, then I wouldn’t underestimate the possibility that it’ll become one of the best, if not the best, expatriate flying job available.

[VAMY]

At the end of the day, if the carrier was serious about offering leading terms and conditions, then they would have painted the town red... or should I say purple? The Arabs love good PR and they would not have skipped a heartbeat in declaring their intention to outsmart their regional rivals and offer better terms and conditions. But they have failed to do so. Ask yourself why?

Tony Douglas said that with regards to future developments from a business perspective, it will be a case of 'tease and reveal'. Sadly, his HR department seems to have adopted the same mindset. If they can't nail their colours to the mast from the outset, how much trust do you have in them to honour what is placed before your eyes in the form of a 'contract'. It seems as if they are on a mission to try and offer the least needed to get the required numbers and all they are doing at the moment is gauging what the demand actually is.

What you say is correct but things will soon change once the airline gets up a running, establish itself, expands its route structure and aircraft deliveries start arriving in large numbers.

As for Tony Douglas and his cohort of ex Etihad & ex BMA pilots before them. Typically, he and his cohort have the usual small minded Brit approach to airline pilot salaries and let’s face it the Brits have never been the best paid of comparable airline pilots. Most Brits are so desperate to be an “airline pilot” that they’re willing to accept the first offer placed in front of them if it means they can occupy a flight deck seat.

[HugeJarse]

What you say is correct but things will soon change once the airline gets up a running, establish itself, expands its route structure and aircraft deliveries start arriving in large numbers.

As for Tony Douglas and his cohort of ex Etihad & ex BMA pilots before them. Typically, he and his cohort have the usual small minded Brit approach to airline pilot salaries and let’s face it the Brits have never been the best paid of comparable airline pilots. Most Brits are so desperate to be an “airline pilot” that they’re willing to accept the first offer placed in front of them if it means they can occupy a flight deck seat.

To be honest, I’d rather share a flight deck with a Brit than an Australian or South African.

[Romasik]

Can someone confirm that the retirement age will be 58.5 years because
it is 60 years but will be based off the Hijri calendar ?
It’s 60 years Gregorian in Saudi Arabian Airlines. it’s my case, if you have any doubts.

[Hotclown]

To be honest, I’d rather share a flight deck with a Brit than an Australian or South African.

why is that ?

[Youwish]

To be honest, I’d rather share a flight deck with a Brit than an Australian or South African.

totally!

[VAMY]

To be honest, I’d rather share a flight deck with a Brit than an Australian or South African.

I wouldn’t disagree with your sentiment regarding sharing a flight deck with an Australian.

However I’ve found the South Africains to be OK, excepting that they tend to be willing to offer their service for less than what they should do. They also tend to be rather “clannish”. Once you get one of the them in a position of influence the next thing you find out is that a whole drove of them arrive….

[kungfu panda]

I wouldn’t disagree with your sentiment regarding sharing a flight deck with an Australian.

However I’ve found the South Africains to be OK, excepting that they tend to be willing to offer their service for less than what they should do. They also tend to be rather “clannish”. Once you get one of the them in a position of influence the next thing you find out is that a whole drove of them arrive….

I don't mind Australian or South African Pilots it's Australian or South African controllers that I don't like. :}

[Hotclown]

i agree that 95% of South Africans are great at sharing flight deck but Australians are a nightmare, they act as if they invented flying MATE

[FlightDetent]

VAMY Thank you. The little gem where Iqama makes you a resident of the opposing party (state) escaped my ken, in full. That inverts the vector at (3); my brain could not see what it read and insisted on a "citizen" interpretation thereof.

Appreciate your time and sharing.

[Orville bruh]

SINGAPORE—Riyadh Air expects deliveries of its Boeing 787-9s to begin in the second quarter (Q2) of next year, and is planning for a commercial launch by the end of June 2025. With 39 orders for the 787 variant, plus options for an additional 33, the Saudi Arabian state-owned start-up carrier has also been considering a large order of narrowbodies. Sources believe a decision favoring the 737 MAX is likely, given the Airbus A320neo family’s constraints for near-term availability. But it was a third OEM for which Riyadh Air COO Peter Bellew reserved high praise in remarks made at the Singapore Airshow. Calling Comac’s C919 “the world’s best-kept secret aircraft,” he says the company will build a “world-beating aircraft” within the next decade. “It's great for the industry to have another force out there,” Bellew says, referring to the Shanghai-based OEM. “I wouldn't underestimate Comac for one minute … I think they will be a real force to be reckoned with.” A total of 109 Comac aircraft are currently in service, according to the Aviation Week Fleet Discovery database, with only two outside of China—in Indonesia. The manufacturer has firm orders for another 1,250 aircraft, Fleet Discovery shows. State-owned Comac announced orders from Tibet Airlines (40 C919s and 10 ARJ21s) and lessor Henan Civil Aviation Development & Investment Group (six ARJ21s) on the first day of the Singapore Airshow, during what was the OEM’s first overseas order signing. Riyadh Air expects to begin test flying in Q3 2024, as it works toward getting its air operator’s certificate. “Then we would plan to be operating commercially at the end of the first half of next year,” Bellew says. “So it's all systems go.” Once deliveries of its 787s begin, Bellew describes the rest of its first batch of 39 as coming “quite quickly” over the next few years. The airline’s goal is to “link up pretty much every major capital that there is, to Riyadh,” he says.

[mutt]

It’s 60 years Gregorian in Saudi Arabian Airlines. it’s my case, if you have any doubts.

When did they change from 58.2 / 65 G to 60/65G?

[Jetdriverp]

When did they change from 58.2 / 65 G to 60/65G?
So that someone from the West can understand, what will the retirement age in RIA be in Western years ?

[Romasik]

When did they change from 58.2 / 65 G to 60/65G?
Well, it’s complicated. In my case I was on the old contract until 60,5G. A friend of mine - until 61G. But it was partly because of the COVID break and messy recovery from it.
And lately no expat mentioned that this happened to him at 58. All switch to a retirement contract at 60G.

[Cury Lamb]

“Come to Saudi, it’s a new vibrant and exciting executing place”

Saudi Arabia executes seven people for terrorism

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1742138-20240228.htm

[Hotclown]

“Come to Saudi, it’s a new vibrant and exciting executing place”

Saudi Arabia executes seven people for terrorism

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1742138-20240228.htm

fair, give 7 to save 7000 innocent people

[airpasty]

I don’t think we have anything to gain from bashing Saudi and the Middle East in general, I’ve lived on and off in the Middle East for 15 years and found it vastly better than living in Europe and the Far East. (lived there for a few years too)

I’ve found that living in Muslim countries have afforded myself and my family a safe moral place to raise my family.

It's not perfect but as a westerner I detest fellow westerners looking down their nose at Arabs and Muslims because of a superiority complex or because they can’t drink beer wherever they want.

If you’re from the U.K. go home for a couple of years, pay huge amounts of tax, enjoy the rain and potholes and get sick, see how long it takes you to get treatment. Confuse your kids so much that they don’t know if they are an Arthur or a Martha and sit in the pub talking about how people in dinghy’s are destroying the country whilst the top 5% keep stealing from you.

I’ll be here in the Middle East welcoming you back when you arrive.