Tassie Approach TIBA

[aussieflyboy]

HBA and LST have only recently been given approach controllers and they’re already going TIBA…

[VH-FTS]

Cairns, Mackay & Rockhamptom airspace, as well as parts of NSW and QLD enroute, have all gone TIBA numerous times over the last couple of weeks as well. It's actually disgraceful that Airservices can't provide an air traffic service. I'm also surprised the media hasn't caught wind that aircraft are flying through airspace with no air traffic control (not even the level of service that Class G has).

[KRviator]

Goes to show we don't really need en-route & approach controller's, eh? I mean, if it is safe now without them, even temporarily, then it is still safe without them on a permanent basis, yes? Ain't no such thing as temporary safety, it's like your missus being pregger's, she either is or she ain't. :}:ugh:

I genuinely feel for the frontline ATC'ers here, being asked to do more with less and even so, being unable to provide the level of service they know we expect through no fault of their own.

[Stretch06]

It's actually disgraceful that Airservices can't provide an air traffic service. I'm also surprised the media hasn't caught wind that aircraft are flying through airspace with no air traffic control (not even the level of service that Class G has).

Thats because they accepted the CEO's quote a week or so ago that stated that they have enough staff to provide a full service. I read the article at a time when Gold Coast tower had just cancelled all circuit training for the day due to in adaquate staffing levels at YBCG.

Heard on the grapevine that a JStar flight SYD-MKY turn back mid flight when suddenly advised of the NOTAM of TIBA. Why Mackay Tower couldnt take responsibliity for the airspace above them (as they have up until very recently) is beyond me.

[das Uber Soldat]

Seems unlikely. We can fly through tiba provided it's announced after dispatch.

[PoppaJo]

Heard on the grapevine that a JStar flight SYD-MKY turn back mid flight when suddenly advised of the NOTAM of TIBA. Why Mackay Tower couldnt take responsibliity for the airspace above them (as they have up until very recently) is beyond me.
SYD-MKY not a Star route

[aussieflyboy]

Seems unlikely. We can fly through tiba provided it's announced after dispatch.

And if you had an RA or worse as you transited through that airspace how do you think the company would react…? How do you think the general public would react to 200 people being killed if you thought “ah she’ll be right, let’s just go through it”

[Stretch06]

SYD-MKY not a Star route

Maybe not SYD then, but a JStar enroute to MKY turned back instead of deal with the TIBA airspace.

[MickG0105]

Maybe not SYD then, but a JStar enroute to MKY turned back instead of deal with the TIBA airspace.
That would have to have been JQ888, the daily from BNE. What was the rough timeframe for when this was meant to have happened?

Here you go. 2 August.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/858x905/screenshot_20220901_100154_flightradar24_8edbb1a946cb0ef61bf df9d46488269e8aeef007.jpg

[flypy]

Why Mackay Tower couldnt take responsibliity for the airspace above them (as they have up until very recently) is beyond me.

Because their endorsement on the Mackay Approach airspace is no longer valid.

[das Uber Soldat]

And if you had an RA or worse as you transited through that airspace how do you think the company would react…? How do you think the general public would react to 200 people being killed if you thought “ah she’ll be right, let’s just go through it”
Same way they'd react anytime I flew through any other kind of uncontrolled airspace? Which is almost every day?

Or are you telling me you have a habit of flying halfway to Ballina and then turning around? If a crew were to turn around instead of proceed nobody would bat an eye. In my experience with TIBA at the star, most people have forged on. I see no issue with either decision.

[Lookleft]

DUS, you might want to aquaint yourself with the OM1 requirements for operating into TIBA. The crew going to MKY obviously did.

[das Uber Soldat]

DUS, you might want to aquaint yourself with the OM1 requirements for operating into TIBA. The crew going to MKY obviously did.
Had another look, still happy. PIC decision.

edit : Fair point in regard to my first post though, its correct to say a diversion is more likely than not, if you have the fuel. So fair play.

[MickG0105]

DUS, you might want to aquaint yourself with the OM1 requirements for operating into TIBA. The crew going to MKY obviously did.
Had another look, still happy. PIC decision.

edit : Fair point in regard to my first post though, its correct to say a diversion is more likely than not, if you have the fuel. So fair play.
For those of us up the back in the cheap seats, could I trouble either of you to explain this a bit further please.

[das Uber Soldat]

For those of us up the back in the cheap seats, could I trouble either of you to explain this a bit further please.
I said at the start of the thread that I thought a turn back was unlikely if TIBA airspace was activated whilst already in flight. TIBA being deactivated controlled airspace, essentially class G with no ATS services. Usually the result of staff shortages in ATC.

Our manuals allows us to fly through TIBA if its activated after takeoff, however they do say the PIC should divert it able to avoid it. So my original comment isn't accurate.

[MickG0105]

I said at the start of the thread that I thought a turn back was unlikely if TIBA airspace was activated whilst already in flight. TIBA being deactivated controlled airspace, essentially class G with no ATS services. Usually the result of staff shortages in ATC.

Our manuals allows us to fly through TIBA if its activated after takeoff, however they do say the PIC should divert it able to avoid it. So my original comment isn't accurate.
Thanks for that.

[aussieflyboy]

Same way they'd react anytime I flew through any other kind of uncontrolled airspace? Which is almost every day?

Or are you telling me you have a habit of flying halfway to Ballina and then turning around? If a crew were to turn around instead of proceed nobody would bat an eye. In my experience with TIBA at the star, most people have forged on. I see no issue with either decision.

You don’t honestly think TIBA airspace above 10,000 is the same as Class G do you? Do you understand what the difference is? You are aware that class G has speed requirements, ATC support amongst others things and TIBA does not.

It’s significantly safer and more predictable organising separation going into Paraburdoo where you have generally standard radio calls and positions and your doing a speed where you’ll be able to see traffic…

[das Uber Soldat]

You don’t honestly think TIBA airspace above 10,000 is the same as Class G do you? Do you understand what the difference is? You are aware that class G has speed requirements, ATC support amongst others things and TIBA does not.
Class G has speed requirements above 10,000? News to me.

It’s significantly safer and more predictable organising separation going into Paraburdoo where you have generally standard radio calls and positions and your doing a speed where you’ll be able to see traffic…
TIBA has standard radio calls (AIP Gen 3.3), from standard positions. The speed? Standard jet profile is into 280. How is that materially different from 250? The only operational difference I can work out is that ATS aren't there to give you traffic information (at least, that which they can see). Not ideal, fair enough.

[TWOTBAGS]

You guys have obviously never been out of the kindergarten that is Australian airspace, try operating anywhere in Africa from the Sahara south, running through the red sea "station calling Cairo" while dodging ELAL transiting right down the FIR boundary not talking to anyone or transiting Kaos Corner in the eastern Mediterranean in a jet with magnificent variations on language, aircraft performance, human performance, and toss in a sky god or two..... and the US military messing with GPS signals every now and then.
TIBA pales into insignificance.

[Lapon]

Regardless of whether one can/should operate TIBA, is anyone in Australia paid enough to think 'this airspace is normally required to be controlled, but since ATC are short staffed I'll wear the risk and liability to get the job done'?

No thanks, turn back and let the airlines and airservices squabble over it.
Then again, Im not inclined to go the extra mile at the best of times.

[Lookleft]

DUS, all good but I know what would happen if I elected to continue, given the option of a turnback, and a TCAS RA occurred in the TIBA airspace. Our management is not known for its grace when the pineapple option is always available.

[das Uber Soldat]

DUS, all good but I know what would happen if I elected to continue, given the option of a turnback, and a TCAS RA occurred in the TIBA airspace. Our management is not known for its grace when the pineapple option is always available.
You're not wrong there.

[Lambswool]

Regardless of whether one can/should operate TIBA, is anyone in Australia paid enough to think 'this airspace is normally required to be controlled, but since ATC are short staffed I'll wear the risk and liability to get the job done'?

No thanks, turn back and let the airlines and airservices squabble over it.
Then again, Im not inclined to go the extra mile at the best of times.

Sure is.
I'm one of them. Don't particularly have an issue with it. Not too different from operating in Class G that most of us have operated in at some point in time. "all stations... I am coming through!".
Of course it means having faith in the other users of the airspace doing the right thing. But to be fair, there is not many others hacking around the sky at the times I fly, so my risk is certainly much less.:zzz:

[aussieflyboy]

“TIBA airspace South of the Gold Coast Ansett 1234 currently 47nm bearing 178 degrees from position PEBTO at FL340 estimating PEBTO at 27”

”Ansett 1234 this is Transair 567, we are currently 44nm bearing 146 degrees from position MAKKA also at FL340 which I think is 2nm South of PEBTO, estimating MAKKA at 26, just confirm we’ll be clear?”

”Traffic around PEBTO Topend 678 currently 8nm north of PEBTO tracking Southbound at FL330”

[macbe327]

Goes to show we don't really need en-route & approach controller's, eh? I mean, if it is safe now without them, even temporarily, then it is still safe without them on a permanent basis, yes? Ain't no such thing as temporary safety, it's like your missus being pregger's, she either is or she isn’t

not sure if this is a joke or not? Close your eyes and cross a quiet road. Didn’t die? Must be just as safe as doing it with your eyes open. Do it again tomorrow. And then the next day. And so on.
Safety is not an absolute.

[m-dot]

PIC may have had the discretion to continue (if TIBA announced inflight) but I doubt they would have the choice to knowingly dispatch into it again on departure (Ie when they were returning to the capital city they originated from.

Would probably have been stranded in MKY.

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

So Sunny Coast goes from D to G but Rockhampton goes to a Restricted Area with a mountain of things to do to get in there? Why?
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1065/rk_36e03e50f47d12ba46208e85850b2992ad129fb2.jpeg

[De_flieger]

Would it be that hard, given it appears likely TIBA will be an ongoing issue for a while, to have a graphical map as NAIPS provides for weather phenomena to make it easier to see at a glance where the affected airspace is and whether TIBA airspace is likely to be an issue on any given flight?

As the current linked maps at …notammaps/index.asp are a cumbersome way to check and each map appears to only cover a relatively small area.

[Lead Balloon]

Is anyone listening?

Pilots are concerned about the safety of increased reliance on uncontrolled airspace due to temporary air traffic controller shortages ... the issue was unprecedented, worsening and increasing risks to the point some airlines were delaying flights. AusALPA (& AFAP) president and Qantas Link pilot Captain Louise Pole told The Australian some airlines were delaying flights rather than operate while TIBA was in place. “It (TIBA) means the workload for a pilot is a lot higher and that makes your job harder, and it does create more risk because you are not operating in a normal (situation).” She said in 30 years of flying, she had not flown TIBA until two weeks ago, and had since flown it twice, most recently on Monday. Civil Air Australia president and #airtrafficcontroller Tom McRobert said 120 controllers had taken early retirement under the program, reducing “resilience” to deal with staffing issues. He said the scheme had arguably cut twice as many as was wise and this was the “root cause” of the use of TIBA. “We are seeing more TIBAs in the last six months than I’ve ever seen in my nearly 20 years (in the job)". Airservices Australia #AirServices #trafficcontrol #aviation #ausalpa
Make a REPCON to ATSB. I’m sure they’ll investigate the facts and risks quickly and efficiently, before concluding that everything’s ‘acceptably safe’.

[Aimpoint]

So Sunny Coast goes from D to G but Rockhampton goes to a Restricted Area with a mountain of things to do to get in there? Why?

The new "Approach" service ROK and MKY has is the difference. Approach is going TIBA, not the Tower. That leaves the airspace from ground to 4500 left unable to be managed by anyone expect Approach during Tower hours. A few months ago it would have been the same as the Sunshine Coast, and far less complex.