Air NZ Jet

[Seosan]

Hi all

Can anyone in the know advise what the current situation is like in the Air NZ jet fleet furlough/redundancy hold pool is? Last I heard the training plan only had about 200 pilots back before 2024 with only 50 or so actually invited. That was in Feb this year, so presuming things have changed since then a little?

[AerocatS2A]

200 by the end of roster 11 this year was the news in July. I suspect everyone will have had an opportunity very soon and then they will start working their way back up the list.

Edit: If you're asking because you want to know when they might start recruiting, you will need to go via the turboprops and they're recruiting right now.

[Seosan]

Edit: If you're asking because you want to know when they might start recruiting, you will need to go via the turboprops and they're recruiting right now.

Thanks for the info. I'm a little old to be joining a 10+ year waiting list for a jet interview. Mostly just curious about how the recovery is going back home.

[AerocatS2A]

Thanks for the info. I'm a little old to be joining a 10+ year waiting list for a jet interview. Mostly just curious about how the recovery is going back home.
Faster than any of us imagined.

[waterbottle]

Faster than any of us imagined.

Slower and more painful than necessary because those that highlighted obvious points were ignored/belittled.

[AerocatS2A]

Slower and more painful than necessary because those that highlighted obvious points were ignored/belittled.
No doubt.

[ElZilcho]

There will definitely be hiring outside of the regional fleet in the next wee while. Not a chance the regional fleet can release the number of pilots that will be required. Assumption only of course.

Recruitment policies are always changing, but the current mantra is the pathway to Jet will be via the Regionals and they plan to plan to increase regional crewing numbers to achieve it.
No talks of Joint Seniority that I’m aware of, so if/when demand requires external hiring again, there won’t be Seniority issues.

In the short to medium turn however, there’s still a lot of names to be recalled to Jet.
On Paper, of the 300 odd Redundant/Furloughed Pilots, we’re almost at the bottom of the list, but that’s because 120 odd have taken LWOP so there’s going to be some back filling once we reach the bottom.

Total numbers, we’re about 200 Pilots short of pre-COVID numbers but the 8x 777-200’s are gone and their replacements are a few years away yet. We’re currently recalling pilots to Re-Crew the 777-300’s and all the seat changes that creates, once that’s done it’ll slow down.

[Seosan]

In the short to medium turn however, there’s still a lot of names to be recalled to Jet.
On Paper, of the 300 odd Redundant/Furloughed Pilots, we’re almost at the bottom of the list, but that’s because 120 odd have taken LWOP so there’s going to be some back filling once we reach the bottom.


Thanks El Zilcho. I understand it's impossible to get a cover-all answer here but why would guys higher on the seniority list take LWOP instead of returning? Were they holding out for a LH spot?

[dctPub]

Thanks El Zilcho. I understand it's impossible to get a cover-all answer here but why would guys higher on the seniority list take LWOP instead of returning? Were they holding out for a LH spot?

because majority of them are regional captains who were awarded positions on the jet fleet but never actually started. When Covid hit they were made “redundant” and are now faced with a decision to resign from
their current role, have to go on training pay (60k) for a few months and start at the bottom of the jet pay scale. Oh and probably have to move to Auckland.

so they take lwop :ok:

[ElZilcho]

Thanks El Zilcho. I understand it's impossible to get a cover-all answer here but why would guys higher on the seniority list take LWOP instead of returning? Were they holding out for a LH spot?

As dctPub said, a lot of them will be Regional pilots and their reasons will be varied. Some Regional pilots were on a Jet Course when COVID hit and found themselves redundant, having resigned from the Links, and on training pay. So I suspect some are keen to hold onto their Seniority for a while longer.

But there are some Jet Pilots who took LWOP as well, could be a number of reasons. Notice periods at their current jobs, waiting for their preferred fleet, not ready to return… whole host of reasons to be honest. In the end, I suspect we’ll see I few resignations, but most will probably take a course in time.

[Seosan]

Thanks fellas appreciate the info 👍🏼

[78ZH]

Well looks like the best place to be is not in air nz regional but in a foreign jet operator as doors are going to open up to externals. Once again regional pilots will be shot down for recruitment opportunities as we are only gardeners clearly.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Well looks like the best place to be is not in air nz regional but in a foreign jet operator as doors are going to open up to externals. Once again regional pilots will be shot down for recruitment opportunities as we are only gardeners clearly.

So you haven’t read the RPPP I take it? :rolleyes:

[ElZilcho]

Well looks like the best place to be is not in air nz regional but in a foreign jet operator as doors are going to open up to externals. Once again regional pilots will be shot down for recruitment opportunities as we are only gardeners clearly.

So you haven’t read the RPPP I take it? :rolleyes:

Honestly, the timing is amusing.
Zero talk of external Recruitment to Jet yet has a rant on Prune about it the day before a Company memo stating a 100% internal recruitment goal.

Honestly, the top half of the RSL is the best place to be right now.
Just submit a standing bid for S8/7 or F20 and wait your turn.

[dctPub]

So when Air NZ needs bulk pilots again it will be Tag and Release 2.0 it seems?

Also some oddly specific clauses restricting external pilots in there, 8 years away from the regionals (the ol' jetconnect loophole) and stipulated experience for external candidates (well and truly above and beyond the company minimum requirements). Those few CX SOs that "slipped through" :=

Someone must have had a bone to pick.

[ElZilcho]

So when Air NZ needs bulk pilots again it will be Tag and Release 2.0 it seems?

Also some oddly specific clauses restricting external pilots in there, 8 years away from the regionals (the ol' jetconnect loophole) and stipulated experience for external candidates (well and truly above and beyond the company minimum requirements). Those few CX SOs that "slipped through" :=

Someone must have had a bone to pick.

Yep, someone clearly has an axe to grind with people "jumping the queue" and it's quite pathetic.
There’s was already a 2 year stand down in place if you left the group, but seems it got ignored for a brief period in 2017(ish) which has caused this traitor mentality.

The concept that many left the Links to actually get paid a decent wage while progressing their careers never seemed to occur to certain individuals.
Admittedly, with Eagle being no more and blended T-Prop Payscales that's less of an issue these days. Would anyone be surprised to hear that the bulk of Pilots who left the Links to fly Jets for the Aussies are ex-Eagle? I wonder why….?

[Seosan]

I’m an outsider looking in and have no concept of the realities of tag and release but do the regionals have such training capacity that when Jet fleet ask for 100 pilots exclusively internally they can just push through 100 command courses on a whim?

As a kiwi overseas (due to family, not queue-jumping) it has taken a while to come to terms with the fact that I may never get the chance to fly for the home carrier. Not saying it’s a right, but it would have been nice to have the chance to apply. I still find the new ethos quite an interesting proposal operationally.

[ElZilcho]

I’m an outsider looking in and have no concept of the realities of tag and release but do the regionals have such training capacity that when Jet fleet ask for 100 pilots exclusively internally they can just push through 100 command courses on a whim?

As a kiwi overseas (due to family, not queue-jumping) it has taken a while to come to terms with the fact that I may never get the chance to fly for the home carrier. Not saying it’s a right, but it would have been nice to have the chance to apply. I still find the new ethos quite an interesting proposal operationally.

Well with 2 Fleets, it would be 50 each so probably not a major hurdle, especially if they plan ahead for it. They couldn’t sustain that for consecutive years however as they’d run out of qualified FO’s to upgrade. That’s where Tag and Release would come in, but honestly at a ratio of 9:1 it would be an absolute shambles.

The current plan will work very well for the senior Link Pilots, most of which are well and truly due for a pathway to Jet. Long term however, many of us believe its going to create more problems than it solves and we’ll see more changes.

External or Internal, getting into Air NZ is often about timing, and which way the pendulum has swung when you apply.
Why they can never strike a balance between the 2 is beyond my pay grade.

[go123]

Could be wrong here, but it’s only Dash and ATR drivers excluded for 8 years hey? Not Eagle - because of the company being closed?

[KiwiAvi8er]

Could be wrong here, but it’s only Dash and ATR drivers excluded for 8 years hey? Not Eagle - because of the company being closed?

Correct

[WhiskeyCharlie130]

An 'outsider' weighing up TP pathway, conceeding Ext Jet looks unlikely/will be extremly compeditive. Can anyone provide insight as to rough timeline to TP Capt for someone willing to be Auckland based (understand many FO's would rather be elsewhere due COL) and has an ATPL ? Thank in advance.

[Ollie Onion]

I was chatting to a Senior person at Air NZ last week and was told they are facing a recruitment crunch. He said that quite a few people coming from the Turbo Props are struggling with the Jet transition and the company is rapidly coming to the conclusion they will have to recruit external candidates onto the A320 to keep up. I asked about the recruit to group and he said they had got around that before and could again if required.

[ElZilcho]

I was chatting to a Senior person at Air NZ last week and was told they are facing a recruitment crunch. He said that quite a few people coming from the Turbo Props are struggling with the Jet transition and the company is rapidly coming to the conclusion they will have to recruit external candidates onto the A320 to keep up. I asked about the recruit to group and he said they had got around that before and could again if required.

We all knew this would happen, we all knew who the trainings risks were, but the RPP chose to ignore everything and give every T-Prop Pilot, effectively seniority rights into Jet.

As such, the 35 year old, ATR/Q300 Captain, with 7-10 years in the Links now, has to wait for some disgruntled Captain with 3 failed interview attempts already to then fail his/her Type Rating and hope Air NZ doesn’t turn away from Link Pilots again before he/she gets their first look in.

Who could have possibly thought this was a good idea? Oh that’s right, the Regional Council who basically wrote their own pathway.

[Ollie Onion]

I wonder if those joining will realise the seniority number they get puts them behind many hundreds of other group pilots so an A320 FO spot may be where you end up for a long time.

[ElZilcho]

Well it wont be behind hundreds, not yet anyway.
Regionals still have a separate Seniority list and their ability to bid for Jet Vacancies is within their list only... we haven't got a joint Seniority list.
If the company does start hiring externals, they can do so on a 1:9 ratio, being 1 external for every 9 regionals without any problems... this means 1:9 Pilots actually employed and appointed to Jet Courses.
However, if they can't meet the 1:9 Ratio we get into Tag and Release, which is where the problems occurred previously. For every External Pilot Hired (outside the 1:9 ratio), then 4 Regional Pilots get a reserved Jet Seniority number ahead of that External hire, they get "Tagged and Released" back to the Regionals. As we saw before COVID, that quickly added up to 100 or so Regional Pilots on reserved numbers and externals started pulling their applications and not fronting for interviews.

However, in raw numbers terms, there should be no reason to require externals in the next 12-24 months, certainly not above the 1:9 ratio as the Links are quite well stocked and the recent Jet Course plan is quite slow. If they are forced to turn externally because of Regional Pilots failing courses, this isn't a Regional specific problem... the problem is who they're hiring, not where they're coming from.

[dctPub]

The revolving door of the bottom 30-40% of the links is about to spin much faster.

Also, imagine failing SO line training. Lmao.

[Seosan]

The pub rumour mill has it that a small external recruitment for 320 RHS will happen this year. Any validity to it?

[Bmozzle]

Word on the street is that they will be able to cover everything internally.

Never say never though, if they do they'll be looking for Space Shuttle Commanders.

[On Guard]

Word on the street is that they will be able to cover everything internally.

Never say never though, if they do they'll be looking for Space Shuttle Commanders.

Meanwhile in the States, 4.5 months to a 767/757 command with Delta.

The downsides of a small albeit awesome country.

[dctPub]

Word on the street is that they will be able to cover everything internally.

Never say never though, if they do they'll be looking for Space Shuttle Commanders.

The Turboprop Strategic Command has stipulated some very stringent experience requirements for hiring outside the RPPP.

Overseas experience doesn't hold a candle to the trials and tribulations of flying around NZ.

Expecting any external positions to be over subscribed.

[Monarch Man]

The Turboprop Strategic Command has stipulated some very stringent experience requirements for hiring outside the RPPP.

Overseas experience doesn't hold a candle to the trials and tribulations of flying around NZ.

Expecting any external positions to be over subscribed.

Well I've heard there are plenty of overseas experienced former jet pilots currently going through the link process. I'm told that there are more than a few ex Cathay, EK, KE and QR drivers who have been employed as the Links offer regional bases, a relatively quick transition back to the LHS and virtually no deep night flying. Not a bad deal IMHO if you've been overseas and made your money 😉

[dctPub]

Well I've heard there are plenty of overseas experienced former jet pilots currently going through the link process. I'm told that there are more than a few ex Cathay, EK, KE and QR drivers who have been employed as the Links offer regional bases, a relatively quick transition back to the LHS and virtually no deep night flying. Not a bad deal IMHO if you've been overseas and made your money 😉

This thread is about air nz jet. My comment above was about nzalpa turboprop council stipulating experience requirements for external applicants to the jet fleet.

The overseas jet drivers will probably use that as a job seeking allowance and go to jetconnect or jetstar, as one has already recently.

Doing 4-5 sectors a day, with massive waits at the airport, for 70k a year isn't sustainable for those used to doing 1 in 1 out.

[ElZilcho]

Well I've heard there are plenty of overseas experienced former jet pilots currently going through the link process. I'm told that there are more than a few ex Cathay, EK, KE and QR drivers who have been employed as the Links offer regional bases, a relatively quick transition back to the LHS and virtually no deep night flying. Not a bad deal IMHO if you've been overseas and made your money 😉

Due to COVID, a number of experienced expats found themselves either needing or wanting employment back home. Not many options here, and, for the time being, the only point of entry into Air NZ is the Regional fleets.

Some were unsuccessful, others turned down the offer. How many have actually started? No idea, probably more than 0 but the Links aren’t overflowing with Expat Jet Skippers.

[Seosan]

The Turboprop Strategic Command has stipulated some very stringent experience requirements for hiring outside the RPPP.

Overseas experience doesn't hold a candle to the trials and tribulations of flying around NZ.

Expecting any external positions to be over subscribed.

What kind of things have they demanded?

[dctPub]

What kind of things have they demanded?

External pilots must meet the following criteria:

a. have at least 12 months Part 121 (or equivalent weight category) turboprop command experience; or

B. have at least 12 months Part 121 or Part 125 (or equivalent weight category) jet first officer experience; or

c. have Part 121 or Part 125 (or equivalent weight category) jet captain experience; or

D.have at least 12 months fixed wing command experience with the RNZAF or other air force on aircraft at least equivalent in weight category to Part 121 turboprop aircraft.

Keep in mind this is the turboprop council making up these requirements. Not the company.

[Ollie Onion]

Does that mean they only accept experience with NZ operators or would a lowly Jet Captain with an International Legacy Carrier qualify them for a job with Air NZ? I do wonder how I ever survived flying in and out of NZ with an International carrier despite it being 20 years since I had flown a turboprop domestically around the countryside given that NZ has things like Mountains and wind which apparently don’t exist anywhere else.

[dctPub]

Does that mean they only accept experience with NZ operators or would a lowly Jet Captain with an International Legacy Carrier qualify them for a job with Air NZ? I do wonder how I ever survived flying in and out of NZ with an International carrier despite it being 20 years since I had flown a turboprop domestically around the countryside given that NZ has things like Mountains and wind which apparently don’t exist anywhere else.

I think the "or weight equivalent" would cover international experience.

It seems that people got their panties in a twist when a couple of CX SOs "got through" and "skipped the queue" when ANZ was recruiting jet externals.

[big buddah]

The real question is why are experienced regional pilots failing training onto a 320?
Elsewhere in the developed world you go from a 172 to the 320.

[Ollie Onion]

I have trained quite a few Turboprop pilots onto Jets and I have to say ‘more’ turboprop experience can ‘sometimes’ hinder the transition as the thought process of energy management is totally different. Long time on Turboprops mixed with older age are a bit of a bad mix when moving to a large jet. Not always but sometimes.

The easiest pilots to train were MPL Cadets up in the UK who arrived at the jet with 180 hours and 80 hours in the A320 simulator learning to fly the jet. Age also helped as they could look at a manual and retain it. Of course as with everything there were exceptions and a few MPL students also failed.

Being able to skip the normal recruitment process of perhaps a simulator assessment will mean those who are going to struggle are only identified in the type rating which is a waste of everyone’s time.

[ElZilcho]

Very few have outright failed, but there’s definitely been a spike in extra training required.

It’s not a problem “Regional Pilot problem” it’s a problem with removing the filter. The overwhelming majority of Regional Pilots have no issues transitioning to Jets, be it Air NZ, J* Cathay etc

Could be rough few months for the training department, but eventually things will settle down after certain regional pilots have either washed out or been carried over the line.

Its a very unique issue caused by allowing the Regional Council to write their own Jet Pathway, removing all screening processes and applying a punitive 8 year stand down to anyone who dared further their careers outside the group. Once we’ve filtered through the top heavy Regional List expect things should settle down.

[Ollie Onion]

Very few have outright failed, but there’s definitely been a spike in extra training required.

It’s not a problem “Regional Pilot problem” it’s a problem with removing the filter. The overwhelming majority of Regional Pilots have no issues transitioning to Jets, be it Air NZ, J* Cathay etc

Could be rough few months for the training department, but eventually things will settle down after certain regional pilots have either washed out or been carried over the line.

Its a very unique issue caused by allowing the Regional Council to write their own Jet Pathway, removing all screening processes and applying a punitive 8 year stand down to anyone who dared further their careers outside the group. Once we’ve filtered through the top heavy Regional List expect things should settle down.

correct, alot of the trouble would be removed with recruitment testing. You are also right in that the majority won’t have an issue.

[Brakerider]

I've never understood why the unions bend over backwards for the regional pilot group. It's not as if you have any other option in NZ anyway.

[ka_pai]

The feds have opposed this from the start and tried talking sense into the company to halt this nonsense of major restrictions to external recruitment, to minor success (now a 1 in 9 option). Alpa and fed jet members on the whole think it’s rubbish but the regional council have somehow hoodwinked the company to agree to it.

[ElZilcho]

https://jobs.airnewzealand.co.nz/jobdetails?ajid=VmHCq

Expressions of interest for externals.
See it’s been updated with info about the RPPP due to seniority concerns after tag and release.

Cant say I was expecting to see this open so soon, but perhaps for once they’re trying to get ahead of things.

[Climb150]

Expressions of interest is just data fishing. Either your recruiting pilots or you aren't.

[ElZilcho]

Expressions of interest is just data fishing. Either your recruiting pilots or you aren't.

We’re Recruiting, no doubts there. The question is, from where. Putting out the EOI to externals will certainly be fishing in the beginning, but suggests they could be looking to draw from that pool earlier than expected.

[Ollie Onion]

I was chatting to a Senior person at Air NZ last week and was told they are facing a recruitment crunch. He said that quite a few people coming from the Turbo Props are struggling with the Jet transition and the company is rapidly coming to the conclusion they will have to recruit external candidates onto the A320 to keep up. I asked about the recruit to group and he said they had got around that before and could again if required.

Looks like the Senior Air NZ person may have been right

[b787q300]

Is the 8 year ban a hard blanket rule or a soft rule that changes with demand of external?

[On Guard]

Is the 8 year ban a hard blanket rule or a soft rule that changes with demand of external?

They’ll have enough external demand I’m sorry.

[Ollie Onion]

Is the 8 year ban a hard blanket rule or a soft rule that changes with demand of external?


5ey won’t start to vary that one as then people will leave the links at will, this way they keep the people in the group.

[Jbrownie]

Could anyone please post a updated salary for a320 fleet?

[ElZilcho]

Looks like the Senior Air NZ person may have been right

Looking that way. If this is indeed a direct result of the the known training risks stuffing it up for the rest of them then I hope the Regionals have a bloody good clean out of their Union reps.

Is the 8 year ban a hard blanket rule or a soft rule that changes with demand of external?

That will only change if supply and demand necessitates it. For the time being, it costs the company nothing to give the babies (Regional Council) their bottle. If that ever changes, the company will do as it always has… whatever it wants.

Could anyone please post a updated salary for a320 fleet?

Round numbers, A320 FO, base salary only
Year 1: $134k
Year 4: $150k (jump to year 4 after 12 months if you have an ATPL)
Year 8: $172k

They should all be increasing by a minimum of 4% in May.

[Holden Magroin]

The 8 year “sentence” is a complete farce.

So, because someone has been a previous employee of the group, had a clean record, achieved a command then left to get jet experience (because of Air NZ taking on externals at the time)...they are now punished retrospectively, compared to someone who has never worked for the group having no such restriction.

It doesn’t even serve any practical purpose from what I can see. If it’s designed to limit numbers of externals, the company will just hire from other external sources (Air Force etc). It doesn’t mean they will hire fewer externals, if they want externals they will take externals.

If it’s to limit guys/girls leaving the props, applying it retrospectively has no effect..the people like myself have already left, whether we get hired or not to the jet has no effect on people currently leaving or staying in the Props.

If such a punishment (let’s call it what it is) is so desired, why not make it a bit practical. Apply it from when the RPPP came into effect late last year, not retrospectively to people who made career decisions based on hiring practices years ago.

Or, for someone previously employed by the group, look back at their start date in the Props and compare that to the current RSL. If people with the same or similar start dates are getting jet slots, great! If not, maybe the external has to wait a bit longer? Then they aren’t ‘queue jumping’ as some are so worried about.

It doesn’t seem to have been thought through in a practical sense by either party.

Good luck to all.

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[On Guard]

Looking that way. If this is indeed a direct result of the the known training risks stuffing it up for the rest of them then I hope the Regionals have a bloody good clean out of their Union reps.



That will only change if supply and demand necessitates it. For the time being, it costs the company nothing to give the babies (Regional Council) their bottle. If that ever changes, the company will do as it always has… whatever it wants.



Round numbers, A320 FO, base salary only
Year 1: $134k
Year 4: $150k (jump to year 4 after 12 months if you have an ATPL)
Year 8: $172k

They should all be increasing by a minimum of 4% in May.

S/O salaries please?

[ElZilcho]

S/O salaries please?

Year 1: $120k
Year 2: $134k
Year 8: $153k

SO’s, on average, fly higher hours than 320 FO’s so the take home works out roughly the same.

[On Guard]

Year 1: $120k
Year 2: $134k
Year 8: $153k

SO’s, on average, fly higher hours than 320 FO’s so the take home works out roughly the same.

Thanhs. Ballpark 170k all up??

[ElZilcho]

Thanhs. Ballpark 170k all up??

Hard to say.
A Year 1 SO would need to bee doing big rosters to make $170k taxable. If you’re including allowances, they’re port specific so vary with how you bid and exchange rates, but would probably bump you up to that level.

On the Bus, excluding allowances, probably average around 10% above base, SO’s 20%. Very rough Ballpark. Plenty of instances where certain fleets/ranks have been pushing 50% + Incentive Pay, but it’s not the norm.

[Seosan]

Thanks ElZilcho for all the useful insider knowledge. Whilst I’m aware it’s unlikely that any external will be recruited in the first place; is it common that Airbus rated drivers will get streamed for the 320 or is it simply luck of the draw with what’s needed at the date of joining?

[ElZilcho]

Highly likely that any and all externals who want it will find themselves on the A320. Previously, we ran shortened courses for current A320 Pilots (possibly all from J*) so if there’s enough starting at once they could possibly do it again.

There’s an interesting situation playing out at the moment. Previously, you could state your preference but ultimately went where you were told. Now, Regional Pilots can bid for specific courses and a large number of them don’t want to move to Auckland. As such, they’re bidding for SO positions or requesting Christchurch Domiciles for the A320, which aren’t guaranteed.

I have my suspicion that this EOI for externals could be specifically targeted at getting more A320 FO’s into Auckland, due to a combination of regional pilots struggling to transition and others declining Auckland.

[big buddah]

Jesus, that’s extremely good coin for a Second Officer. Surprised the airline is willing to pay that much compared to a A320 FO role. I know which position I’d take!!

[ElZilcho]

Jesus, that’s extremely good coin for a Second Officer. Surprised the airline is willing to pay that much compared to a A320 FO role. I know which position I’d take!!

It was a bit of an own goal that one.

ALPA is by far the majority union at Air NZ, but there is another one, FANZP. A number of years ago, FANZ negotiated a significant pay rise for their SO’s by sacrificing the increase at higher ranks. Due to dwindling membership, this would attract new hires to FANZ instead of ALPA.

Naturally, ALPA challenged it, we already had a clause in our CEA designed to prevent situations such as this so rather surprising the company didn’t see it coming. It dragged out, but in the end we achieved pay parity and an SO rate the Company would have never agreed to in the first place if was across the board instead of a small handful.

The “new” SO pay rate does make the A320 less attractive as it’s only a 12% (give or take) difference in base pay which is easily made up as an SO, so it comes down to a lifestyle decision. I enjoyed my time as an SO, but it got quite boring after a few years, destinations were great but I couldn’t sit there for 8-10 years waiting for a window unless I was commuting.

[Seosan]

Do you have a ballpark time from FO/SO to 320 command?

[ElZilcho]

Do you have a ballpark time from FO/SO to 320 command?

Pre-COVID? Guys at the head of the wave were getting Commands around 6 years in.
Now? People who lost their Commands when we downsized are slowly getting them back, probably around the 9-10 year mark, about the same as F8.

[dctPub]

Pre-COVID? Guys at the head of the wave were getting Commands around 6 years in.
Now? People who lost their Commands when we downsized are slowly getting them back, probably around the 9-10 year mark, about the same as F8.

Wish I had a green card...

[Space Yak]

Good info thanks.

What are the part time and commuting provisions like? Part time SO living somewhere remote sounds alright. What’s this 90 minute drive zone policy all about?

[ElZilcho]

Don’t worry about the 90 minute work zone… they tried to push it on Pilots a number of years ago and we pushed back. Half of Auckland is outside 90 minutes during peak traffic, and that’s the half where houses are “affordable”.

There’s no commuting provisions, it’s on you to get to work. Plenty make it work, mostly Longhaul. Definitely adds to your time away from home, especially if you’re relying on flights.

Part time contracts are 75% and 50% but they aren’t guaranteed or permanent. Essentially it’s first come first serve for your Rank, so you register your intent on a list and when it’s your turn, you get 2 years part time. After 2 years you rotate to the bottom of the list if you apply again. Some have managed to stay part-time long term, case by case basis I suppose.

I’ve neither commuted nor gone part time so don’t have first hand experience with either.

[Space Yak]

Cheers. Can’t imagine there’d be many part time SO’s. I assume most in that position are on the younger side, still establishing themselves. Not old timers on the way back down and wanting to ease off. Will watch with interest how the recruitment goes.

[Bmozzle]

I have my suspicion that this EOI for externals could be specifically targeted at getting more A320 FO’s into Auckland, due to a combination of regional pilots struggling to transition and others declining Auckland.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though.

1, 1 Pilot seems to be struggling.
2, No one is declining anything, their "bids reflect their career aspirations". There are plenty of people with valid bids down the A320 list to fill all advertisements.

So far the system (including the 10% external) is working as advertised. Next year may be different, but the agreement allows for that too.

[AerocatS2A]

There are plenty of young people interested in part time / flexi flying. The turbo prop fleet has a reasonable number of them and the jet fleet has a number of SOs on flexi flying agreements (not clear on exact numbers as the list hasn't been updated for a while). There are a few pilot couples in the company.

[bendo77]

Hello, can anybody answer a few questions on the turbo prop fleet. Bases, salary and hours per month?
Thanks in advance.

[ElZilcho]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though.

1, 1 Pilot seems to be struggling.
2, No one is declining anything, their "bids reflect their career aspirations". There are plenty of people with valid bids down the A320 list to fill all advertisements.

So far the system (including the 10% external) is working as advertised. Next year may be different, but the agreement allows for that too.

Seems I missed this a few months ago.

The 1 you’re referring to, if it’s who I’m thinking of, is still in Limbo. But there has been a lot of extra training going on lately, which isn’t exactly announced in the weekly emails. From extra SIMS to extra Sectors, the spike in extra resources required has definitely put a strain on the training department and rosters. That’s not say everyone’s struggling, far from it, and with the extra training (mostly) everyone’s getting through, but it’s a noticeable diversion from the norm.

However, my comment about people declining Auckland seems to be misunderstood. Yes, Regional Pilots have bids in for F20, but a number indicated they wanted WLG or CHC not AKL. The Jet fleet has domiciles not bases thus there’s no standing bid system for a particular “base”. The bids might reflect their career aspirations but not where they wish to live. However, since my original post, it appears that may have been a blip on the radar.

I have nothing against Regional Pilots, and most of us support a pathway to Jet, but the RPPP is only working as advertised for a small portion of senior regional Pilots and absent of the big picture. The issues are being masked at present due to a critical shortage in Aircraft, but it’s the number 1 topic at manpower meetings.

Yes, the RPPP allows for hiring above the 10% external threshold, but we’ve been there before and seen the consequences of tag and release. Pre COVID, we had Recruitment boards where almost no one showed up because word got out there was 100 reserved seniority numbers ahead of them. We were on the verge of a recruitment Crisis if COVID hadn’t slammed on the brakes.

The harsh reality is, the Jet Fleet cannot expand without external recruitment and we can’t (successfully) recruit externally if half the regional fleet have reserved seniority numbers.
To put things into perspective, we permanently retired 8x 777’s over COVID. If those Aircraft were instead stored with plans to return to service this year, the Regionals, via the RPPP, could not cope with the demand. So all we’ve done is kick the can down the road.

For those at the top of the RSL, the RPPP is working as intended and they’ll get their Jet jobs. But long term, everyone loses (including them) if we’re unable to expand due to Recruitment hurdles.
If I was a 20 year old fresh Link FO, staring at 600 names ahead of me for Air NZ Jet, I’d do my bond then risk the 8 year stand down and fly Jets elsewhere.

[Massey058]

Seems I missed this a few months ago.

The 1 you’re referring to, if it’s who I’m thinking of, is still in Limbo. But there has been a lot of extra training going on lately, which isn’t exactly announced in the weekly emails. From extra SIMS to extra Sectors, the spike in extra resources required has definitely put a strain on the training department and rosters. That’s not say everyone’s struggling, far from it, and with the extra training (mostly) everyone’s getting through, but it’s a noticeable diversion from the norm.

However, my comment about people declining Auckland seems to be misunderstood. Yes, Regional Pilots have bids in for F20, but a number indicated they wanted WLG or CHC not AKL. The Jet fleet has domiciles not bases thus there’s no standing bid system for a particular “base”. The bids might reflect their career aspirations but not where they wish to live. However, since my original post, it appears that may have been a blip on the radar.

I have nothing against Regional Pilots, and most of us support a pathway to Jet, but the RPPP is only working as advertised for a small portion of senior regional Pilots and absent of the big picture. The issues are being masked at present due to a critical shortage in Aircraft, but it’s the number 1 topic at manpower meetings.

Yes, the RPPP allows for hiring above the 10% external threshold, but we’ve been there before and seen the consequences of tag and release. Pre COVID, we had Recruitment boards where almost no one showed up because word got out there was 100 reserved seniority numbers ahead of them. We were on the verge of a recruitment Crisis if COVID hadn’t slammed on the brakes.

The harsh reality is, the Jet Fleet cannot expand without external recruitment and we can’t (successfully) recruit externally if half the regional fleet have reserved seniority numbers.
To put things into perspective, we permanently retired 8x 777’s over COVID. If those Aircraft were instead stored with plans to return to service this year, the Regionals, via the RPPP, could not cope with the demand. So all we’ve done is kick the can down the road.

For those at the top of the RSL, the RPPP is working as intended and they’ll get their Jet jobs. But long term, everyone loses (including them) if we’re unable to expand due to Recruitment hurdles.
If I was a 20 year old fresh Link FO, staring at 600 names ahead of me for Air NZ Jet, I’d do my bond then risk the 8 year stand down and fly Jets elsewhere.

Honestly it feels like you're lecturing on high from a position of privilege and absolutely discounting the significant other benefits for those that may be lower than even me. Yes, there is the consequences of COVID to overcome but senior management have indicated they don't see a significantly expanded fleet over what is in place now.

And yes people are going to leave the group to do other things. In any configuration of "recruitment" that is always going to be the case and sometimes it works out as a net positive and sometimes it doesn't it. But there are a huge number of people that want to make life plans, pay mortgages etc and want this career to be less sh*t than it can certainly be. You're welcome to begrudge that but it's a better system than what has been in place for a long time.

Hey and at the end of the day we're still going to have the opportunity for some salty old guy who can go in the sim on recruitment boards and shred people at will.

[dctPub]

Hey and at the end of the day we're still going to have the opportunity for some salty old guy who can go in the sim on recruitment boards and shred people at will.

Ignorant statement that couldn't be further from the truth.

[Massey058]

Hello, can anybody answer a few questions on the turbo prop fleet. Bases, salary and hours per month?
Thanks in advance.

Bases are AKL, TRG, NPL, NPE, WLG, NSN & CHC. NPE ATR only and NPL Dash only.

Year 1 FO 66k, with all ATPL subjects start at year 4 77k.

Hours vary across bases, across months, across fleets. 35-60 hours a month. Baring in mind there's a fair amount of 20-35 minute sectors more biased to the Dash.

[Massey058]

Ignorant statement that couldn't be further from the truth.

I really wish it was ignorant. I really do. But some good people have been toyed with and it's not cool.

[ElZilcho]

Honestly it feels like you're lecturing on high from a position of privilege and absolutely discounting the significant other benefits for those that may be lower than even me. Yes, there is the consequences of COVID to overcome but senior management have indicated they don't see a significantly expanded fleet over what is in place now.

And yes people are going to leave the group to do other things. In any configuration of "recruitment" that is always going to be the case and sometimes it works out as a net positive and sometimes it doesn't it. But there are a huge number of people that want to make life plans, pay mortgages etc and want this career to be less sh*t than it can certainly be. You're welcome to begrudge that but it's a better system than what has been in place for a long time.

Hey and at the end of the day we're still going to have the opportunity for some salty old guy who can go in the sim on recruitment boards and shred people at will.

Your last statement sounds like extremely sour grapes. You talk about some "salty old guy" in Recruitment boards, well I've seen my fair share of Pilots complain about an unfair process who (example) literally could not turn off the Runway track in the SIM assessment, that's how overloaded they were in a Jet. And no, they weren't 500 hour T-Prop candidates. Perhaps you're speaking from experience and felt you had a raw deal, perhaps you're re-telling someone else's experience, but if there's one thing I've learned over the years, those who fail never tell the full story when moaning about it in the Crew Room.
Some of the best recruiters are the "old dudes" because they've a wealth of experience, often in training roles, to look through the interview jitters. That's not to say there isn't the odd "grumpy bastard" but someone like that, with a clear agenda, wouldn't last in recruitment as it's a combined assessment process. No one recruiter has a final say and there's always 2 of them in the SIM.

People have always, and will always leave the group externally. Something John Whitaker could never seem to understand when he started this quest to make the Link Pilot Turnover a Jet problem rather than simply accepting it as a cost of doing business. The RPPP doesn't change this, it just encourages people to leave sooner because with 600+ names on the RSL and 20-30 Jet retirement per year, it's a long road to Jet for new hires. Add in a punitive 8 year stand down if they leave, best get that started sooner rather than later.

But where do you think you'd be today if the RPPP existed 10 years ago? Where would Air NZ be? Because I can give you a rough idea.
We've recruited roughly 500 Jet Pilots in the last 10 years. Now, I'm sure we can all agree that 90-100% internal would of been impossible, it's why the "Link ban" happened in the first place, Mt Cook was expanding at the same time as Jet so we simply needed externals.
Now the funny thing here, is in the beginning it was almost 100% internal, then 100% external at the end. The RPP however, works off a yearly ratio, so lets just assume it was 50/50 every year. So 25/25, 50 per year over 10 years.
The RPPP allows for a 1:9 Ratio, so 25 Internals allows the company 3 externals (I've rounded up, but lets be honest the company would round down). That leaves 22 above the Ratio per year, so now the 4:1 tag and seccond comes into play, that's 22x4 so 88 tag and release pilots per year.

Thus over a 10 year Period, that would be 250 Link Pilots Hired with another 880 "tagged" with reserved numbers. So 1130 total regional Pilots added onto the Jet List over a 10 year Period. For reference, the Jet Fleet has roughly 1050 on the list at the moment.

Sure, I've taken a few liberties with the numbers there, but the point is, the RPPP is doomed to fail. We can argue over when, and those arguments are currently taking place well above my paygrade, but the unfortunate reality of the RPPP, which no one likes to talk about, is it heavily favors Pilots currently at the top of the RSL, many of whom have had multiple failed attempts to move on. Not just at Air NZ, but J*, Virgin, JetConnect, Cathay... Ignoring the implications for Jet, all the RPPP has done for the majority of Link Pilots is massively delayed their career progressions in favor of the "salty old guys" ahead of them.

[Massey058]

Your last statement sounds like extremely sour grapes. You talk about some "salty old guy" in Recruitment boards, well I've seen my fair share of Pilots complain about an unfair process who (example) literally could not turn off the Runway track in the SIM assessment, that's how overloaded they were in a Jet. And no, they weren't 500 hour T-Prop candidates. Perhaps you're speaking from experience and felt you had a raw deal, perhaps you're re-telling someone else's experience, but if there's one thing I've learned over the years, those who fail never tell the full story when moaning about it in the Crew Room.
Some of the best recruiters are the "old dudes" because they've a wealth of experience, often in training roles, to look through the interview jitters. That's not to say there isn't the odd "grumpy bastard" but someone like that, with a clear agenda, wouldn't last in recruitment as it's a combined assessment process. No one recruiter has a final say and there's always 2 of them in the SIM.

People have always, and will always leave the group externally. Something John Whitaker could never seem to understand when he started this quest to make the Link Pilot Turnover a Jet problem rather than simply accepting it as a cost of doing business. The RPPP doesn't change this, it just encourages people to leave sooner because with 600+ names on the RSL and 20-30 Jet retirement per year, it's a long road to Jet for new hires. Add in a punitive 8 year stand down if they leave, best get that started sooner rather than later.

But where do you think you'd be today if the RPPP existed 10 years ago? Where would Air NZ be? Because I can give you a rough idea.
We've recruited roughly 500 Jet Pilots in the last 10 years. Now, I'm sure we can all agree that 90-100% internal would of been impossible, it's why the "Link ban" happened in the first place, Mt Cook was expanding at the same time as Jet so we simply needed externals.
Now the funny thing here, is in the beginning it was almost 100% internal, then 100% external at the end. The RPP however, works off a yearly ratio, so lets just assume it was 50/50 every year. So 25/25, 50 per year over 10 years.
The RPPP allows for a 1:9 Ratio, so 25 Internals allows the company 3 externals (I've rounded up, but lets be honest the company would round down). That leaves 22 above the Ratio per year, so now the 4:1 tag and seccond comes into play, that's 22x4 so 88 tag and release pilots per year.

Thus over a 10 year Period, that would be 250 Link Pilots Hired with another 880 "tagged" with reserved numbers. So 1130 total regional Pilots added onto the Jet List over a 10 year Period. For reference, the Jet Fleet has roughly 1050 on the list at the moment.

Sure, I've taken a few liberties with the numbers there, but the point is, the RPPP is doomed to fail. We can argue over when, and those arguments are currently taking place well above my paygrade, but the unfortunate reality of the RPPP, which no one likes to talk about, is it heavily favors Pilots currently at the top of the RSL, many of whom have had multiple failed attempts to move on. Not just at Air NZ, but J*, Virgin, JetConnect, Cathay... Ignoring the implications for Jet, all the RPPP has done for the majority of Link Pilots is massively delayed their career progressions in favor of the "salty old guys" ahead of them.

I think in all your posts you've made very clear your entrenched position. Where do I came at it from? Things change, always have, always will. I like stability and always have, even when it seems like an impossibility. A lot of people do and this new system works for a lot of people.

​​​​​​But there is no system that will please all people, all of the time.

I think what I find odd is how hard you really are against it. Is your position at threat? Or are you just annoyed on behalf of people you know that you feel are being denied? Because I've made that point too and you don't seem to like it. Sometimes it is what it is.

I wasn't trying to make generalisations about recruiting but I've been involved on both sides and in other industries too. I find it all quite arbitrary and random at times even with "robust" systems in place. But I've done fine out it so for me there are no sour grapes.

I'm sure you've been around long enough as have I to know sometimes people aren't always their best selves in the sim and I'm not talking about candidates or necessarily interviews here either. I think industry-wide it's probably better than in years gone by. But we are still dealing with humans that are far more complicated than prescribed procedures. Let me be clear that their are plenty of salty old guys I would classify as GCs.

It's great that you've run all the numbers and I know plenty of people that do in career planning but the thing I've found is that's it's like being an economist. The theory is sound but the practice is often different.

Neither of us speak for all and never can. I don't expect I will have moved you from your position at all, I can certainly see yours and understand it fully but for me I'm ok with the way things are playing out and I know many who are.

[ElZilcho]

I think in all your posts you've made very clear your entrenched position. Where do I came at it from? Things change, always have, always will. I like stability and always have, even when it seems like an impossibility. A lot of people do and this new system works for a lot of people.

​​​​​​But there is no system that will please all people, all of the time.

I think what I find odd is how hard you really are against it. Is your position at threat? Or are you just annoyed on behalf of people you know that you feel are being denied? Because I've made that point too and you don't seem to like it. Sometimes it is what it is.

I wasn't trying to make generalisations about recruiting but I've been involved on both sides and in other industries too. I find it all quite arbitrary and random at times even with "robust" systems in place. But I've done fine out it so for me there are no sour grapes.

I'm sure you've been around long enough as have I to know sometimes people aren't always their best selves in the sim and I'm not talking about candidates or necessarily interviews here either. I think industry-wide it's probably better than in years gone by. But we are still dealing with humans that are far more complicated than prescribed procedures. Let me be clear that their are plenty of salty old guys I would classify as GCs.

It's great that you've run all the numbers and I know plenty of people that do in career planning but the thing I've found is that's it's like being an economist. The theory is sound but the practice is often different.

Neither of us speak for all and never can. I don't expect I will have moved you from your position at all, I can certainly see yours and understand it fully but for me I'm ok with the way things are playing out and I know many who are.

While I joined Jet as an external, I once was once a Regional Pilot. At the time, it was anyone's guess what the requirements were for an Air NZ interview. Time on type? Total time? Seniority? Command time? None of us really knew other than to take a training position guaranteed you wouldn't get an interview. So, when my time was up, I left for a few years before coming back as an "external". As such, I've been on both sides of this debate... along with having had a few unpleasant dealings with some of it's architects and strongest proponents.

Many things have changed for the better. Eagle is gone, Mt Cook has vastly expanded and, while viewed as a B Scale, the blended Link rate also means the Day 1 lottery has been removed for new hires. Things have vastly improved for Regional Pilots over the past 10 years, but many of the Pilots haven't been there long enough to experience what it was and those who have aren't effected by the changes.

However, as I've said before, within the Jet fleet we voted for a Regional Pathway a number of years ago in a company survey. To this day, I still support a pathway because of my own experiences in Link but also because I believe Regional Pilots shouldn't be treated the same as unknown externals. They've got several years within the Company and so a separate process for internal transfers with more transparency was needed. However, a pathway is not the same as an armored escort pushing aside everyone in it's way. By now it's fair to say I've made my point that with the filter removed, there are people coming through who shouldn't, so I wont keep beating that dead horse.

I think what I find odd is how hard you really are against it. Is your position at threat? Or are you just annoyed on behalf of people you know that you feel are being denied? Because I've made that point too and you don't seem to like it. Sometimes it is what it is.

Is my position in threat? No, not directly. But if the Airline fails to expand in the future due to recruitment hurdles then it will effect all of us. Again, I witnessed first hand what 100 reserved places did to recruitment and it's on track to happen again only worse - current forecasts indicate every Link Captain will be on the Jet List within 2-3 years. During the pathways vote, we rejected a Joint Seniority list because we knew the detrimental effects it would have on expansion yet the RPPP will mostly achieve the same result just via different means.
Am I annoyed on behalf of other people being denied? Sure, in the grand scheme of things I suppose I am, because the RPPP was clearly written out of spite and removes the Airlines flexibility which is the biggest concern within Jet at the moment.
Yes, there was a period of time where the Links couldn't release anyone else to Jet so the brakes had to be put on, and for those who just missed out, it sucks. I get it, but it was a temporary setback. The RPPP basically says to every external, including Air Force Pilots "screw you, join the back of the queue". Which, I'm sorry, is absurd, and if the feedback I'm hearing from recent meetings is at all accurate, the company is beginning see this also.

It's not that I think your points are wrong - I'm sure there are plenty of Pilots who love the RPPP, but I disagree with it being what's best for Airline, and in turn, all of it's Pilots. I view the RPPP as only being beneficial to small group of Senior Regional Pilots at others expense. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. If I knew then what I knew now my career would likely have been vastly different. To a new hire 20 year old, a guaranteed Air NZ Jet job in 10-12 years might sounds amazing, because they never knew they could do it in 4-6.

[Seosan]

Sorry to intervene in another great internal vs external debate.

Has anyone caught wind of this EOI leading to any interviews? Last I heard there were recruitment boards penned for April. With 75 link pilots planned to be recruited that leaves about 7 roles for externals. That sound about right?

[ElZilcho]

Sorry to intervene in another great internal vs external debate.

Has anyone caught wind of this EOI leading to any interviews? Last I heard there were recruitment boards penned for April. With 75 link pilots planned to be recruited that leaves about 7 roles for externals. That sound about right?

I’m told there will be a small number of externals this year, in-line with your estimate, but it’s planned to ramp up next year. None of the assigned courses are showing new intakes at the moment.

There are interview boards this month but unsure if they’re for Jet or Link at this stage.

[KickinTyres]

We took our '9 externals for the year' a few weeks ago. First external assessment day, all applicants got through. Any more externals taken this year will trigger appoint and second.

[Seosan]

Good gen thanks 👍🏼

[On Guard]

We took our '9 externals for the year' a few weeks ago. First external assessment day, all applicants got through. Any more externals taken this year will trigger appoint and second.

Did they all go a320 akl?

[KiwiAvi8er]

Did they all go a320 akl?

I could stand to be corrected but I don’t think they will have course start dates/fleets yet. When they put out the course advertisements it states whether regional pilots can be released to fill the roles. If they can’t be released then they would fill them with externals but that’s supposed to be later this year.

[AerocatS2A]

Did they all go a320 akl?

AKL is not something you "go for". Air New Zealand has one, and only one, pilot base. Whether you're on the A320 or one of the Boeings, you are Auckland based. There are domiciles (and the difference is getting pretty technical these days) but as an external you don't necessarily know if you will get a Wellington or Christchurch domicile until after you start, so it's not something that you can accept or decline at the job offer acceptance stage, you can only take an Auckland pilot basing and note your interest for a domicile with the pilot admin team. It's a bit different for an internal hire as they may have significantly more seniority than a new hire and so they have more chance of getting the Christchurch domicile they want. It's relatively easy to get a Wellington domicile, it's Christchurch that has a long queue.

[On Guard]

AKL is not something you "go for". Air New Zealand has one, and only one, pilot base. Whether you're on the A320 or one of the Boeings, you are Auckland based. There are domiciles (and the difference is getting pretty technical these days) but as an external you don't necessarily know if you will get a Wellington or Christchurch domicile until after you start, so it's not something that you can accept or decline at the job offer acceptance stage, you can only take an Auckland pilot basing and note your interest for a domicile with the pilot admin team. It's a bit different for an internal hire as they may have significantly more seniority than a new hire and so they have more chance of getting the Christchurch domicile they want. It's relatively easy to get a Wellington domicile, it's Christchurch that has a long queue.

Interesting. Yes I was told all externals will be A320 Akl as regionals with more seniority will want S/O or other Domiciles. It’s going to be very interesting as I as an external didn’t accept interview because of this.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Interesting. Yes I was told all externals will be A320 Akl as regionals with more seniority will want S/O or other Domiciles. It’s going to be very interesting as I as an external didn’t accept interview because of this.

I hope that wasn’t the only reason you turned down the interview as it’s not correct. You could easily have been offered a SO position. It would just depend on timing.

[AerocatS2A]

Interesting. Yes I was told all externals will be A320 Akl as regionals with more seniority will want S/O or other Domiciles. It’s going to be very interesting as I as an external didn’t accept interview because of this.
It would've been worthwhile having an interview at least and then seeing what you were offered. I got a domicile straight up as an external hire and was offered a B777 course initially but opted for an A320 course. It really depends on timing like the other poster said. This was all pre COVID.

[On Guard]

It would've been worthwhile having an interview at least and then seeing what you were offered. I got a domicile straight up as an external hire and was offered a B777 course initially but opted for an A320 course. It really depends on timing like the other poster said. This was all pre COVID.

Fortunately I have another job. Did think about NZ though and didn’t pull out, just said not now which they were happy with rather than go through process and say no.

Although I understand from insiders post Covid the bidding from regional will mostly be for s/o leaving a320 for lower seniorities.

[Space Yak]

Interesting. Yes I was told all externals will be A320 Akl as regionals with more seniority will want S/O or other Domiciles. It’s going to be very interesting as I as an external didn’t accept interview because of this.

Were you offered an interview recently?

[Lorsh]

I’ve always enjoyed reading your replies ElZilcho, and I understand where you’re coming from.

A couple of things, if Regional to jet this year is going to be about 75 pilots (and this is achievable) Jet training will be around the 80 mark (including externals), is it possible to train more than 80 onto the jet if required? That number seems like quite high and pretty reasonable if required over several years.

Also, I know of a handful of regional pilots who had been accepted into JQ and Jetconnect who have turned it down because they are going to wait for Jet, and there definitely aren’t the same numbers leaving regional as there were precovid so I guess RPPP is having its desired effect in the regional space, it’s also having a having a real effect on FOs moving to not so sort after bases so that they get their 1year command before being eligible for jet, this will be helping the company as there were multiple command vacancies unfilled pre RPPP. I know this is only helping regionally but it is a step forward. Also, there is definitely a more positive feel out on line, which is good for those who want to move to jet and those who want to stay.

And if you are joining externally, doesn’t there just need to be more visibility on what the 20/80 ratio means, because if there’s 1 external hired, you’re only starting behind 4 internals, plus you are on the aircraft and have bidding rights as opposed to the 4 who are seconded.

I agree with you though, and have been around long enough to know that RPPP won’t last in its current form

[Lorsh]

I will say that if you have any type of experience you’d probably not join the regionals now, and look elsewhere, and this will be another choke point for the company as the regional applicants will dry up

[ElZilcho]

In 2013 and again in 2016 we had around 100 new hires, but those were our biggest years (that I know of) and we had more aircraft types to funnel new hires into. So 80 between the 3 current fleets must be close to capacity.

I’m not surprised the RPPP has reduced turnover, it’s a great Carrot. Previously it was mostly Captains and FO’s with ATPL’s who would leave to the Aussies but they’re likely far enough up the RSL that an 8 year stand down isn’t worth the risk, and Junior FO’s likely don’t have enough experience…. Yet.

Long term, I can see a situation arising where those in the middle who feel “stuck” will warn those below them to go early. Due to supply and Demand, the Aussie carriers will likely have to lower their requirements (or pay more) as the pool of Link Captain applications dries up with the RPPP. The RHS of a 737 or A320 earning six figures could look rather appealing to a 22 year old Q300 FO that’s #599 in line for Air NZ.

People leaving the Links used to create a Command Vacancy and shorten the queue to Air NZ, hence 4-6 years being the norm. If the RPPP succeeds in keeping Captains, career progression in the Links is going to be painfully slow. In the beginning it won’t be, should be lots of new Commands this year, hence why everyone’s happy. When it slows down however, or when we get to tag and release 2.0, that’s when I expect Junior FO’s will start voting with their feet. As you said, this will be the new choke point.

In terms of transparency for externals, they absolutely should know the seniority implications for them. But once there’s a build up of Tagged numbers, word gets out and they stop applying.

[Seosan]

Source says that two external boards have happened but anyone’s guess if more will happen.

Interesting if they have wrapped up external recruitment for this year already before the job posting has even closed. Will the company update applicants or is the EOI just an ongoing open application?

[KickinTyres]

I doubt they have wrapped up external recruitment for the year, however anymore externals will trigger appoint and second. With the mess that eventuated last time this was used, I would imagine the company would want to keep externals to a minimum.

[ElZilcho]

As of 20th April, no externals have appeared on the course appointments list. This could simply be a case of working through notice periods etc before assigning start dates, but regardless, no externals have actually started yet thus the RPPP trigger has not been reached.

I’m unsure if we’re going to see a couple of 100% external courses on the Horizon or if they’ll be slotting them in amongst the internals over say the next 6 months. Either way, the number of externals interviewed isn’t a factor in the RPPP, only the number who actually start, and it’s not uncommon to lose a few to other Airlines along the way.

[Bmozzle]

I really wish it was ignorant. I really do. But some good people have been toyed with and it's not cool.
M**E B****N is gone now thankfully....

[Str8toLengu]

Current forecast places 9:1 ratio to be broken in Roster 1 2024 at about 13ish percent. From there it keeps climbing to close to 30% external using present parameters in the forecasts.

Appoint and Second in Appendix A will kick in once the rolling 12 month average goes beyond 9:1 - which is important to note as thats measured off the point at which externals start turning up.

Externals are slated to start from August this year, at a rate for 2023 of 9.9% (I.e. a sliver inside 9:1).
Theres no reason for the company to stop interviewing externals to jet, as they are forecasting around 140 jet pilots needed in 2024 and 2025 each (based on current parameters), of which 100 are claimed to be internal turboprop movements. So they need a pool of 40 externals per year minimum HOWEVER.

The turboprop recruitment pool has all but dried up. I've been told they're down to around 2 eligible applications per month, and the total eligible pool is about 100 with a further 130 partially eligible. Turbos need around 150 new FOs per year to just keep up with the forecasts, so I assume it's all going to collapse in a huge heap within the next 12 months.

Essentially what I'm getting at is that the company cannot afford 100 turbo pilots to move to jet next year - hell, the ATR fleet is barely upright as is with training stretch. Appoint and Second will kick in as the fireworks fade on new years morning 2024, because we simply cannot supply what the forecast is saying.

Oh and to top it all off all the above figures are based on the regional airline recruiting 156 each year, which we might achieve this year but are guaranteed not to next year. What I'm trying to say is the above plan is even worse than anyone thinks it is. The parameters are all stuffed and I'm not sure anyone knows how to recover it at this point. Bring on a repeat of the Tag and Release debacle from yesteryear!

The only realistic future for the jet fleet is large percentage (I.e. more than 20%) external recruitment. You cant supply a larger pool (1100 jet pilots) with the flow through from a smaller pilot pool (650 regional pilots).

[viatheairporthold]

The turboprop recruitment pool has all but dried up. I've been told they're down to around 2 eligible applications per month.

Their last twice monthly board at 11 applicants so don't know where you pulled 2 from

[Str8toLengu]

Their last twice monthly board at 11 applicants so don't know where you pulled 2 from

Read the reply again. 2 applications a month, not attendees at board. You need a flow of applicants to put through a board in the futue. And one board of 11 isn't any sign of success. From recollection the one prior had 11 invited, 6 showed up, and 2 got the job.

[KickinTyres]

I think the figure '2' came from a board a month or so ago where 12 applicants were invited to an assessment day, 6 accepted and 2 were taken. This is the exception though, not the rule. I heard on average half or so of the 12 get taken at each assessment day. 200ish applications for turboprop, 100ish meeting the requirements.

[ElZilcho]

The number of Pilots applying each month, who meet the requirements, is less than the number being hired. Thus the pool is being drained faster than it’s being filled, it’s that simple.

As I’ve always said, Air NZ needs to control the flow of Link Pilots to Jet based on a sustainable number, not arbitrary percentages like 70:30 or now 90:10 otherwise history just keep repeating itself. The Links run out of Pilots and we end up with another “Link Ban” until they can recover.

If the Links can only release 50 per year (for example), then release 50 a year. Sometimes that’ll be 100% internal, other times it might be 50/50 but it keeps the wheels turning.

[deadcut]

Theres no reason for the company to stop interviewing externals to jet, as they are forecasting around 140 jet pilots needed in 2024 and 2025 each (based on current parameters), of which 100 are claimed to be internal turboprop movements. So they need a pool of 40 externals per year minimum HOWEVER.



What are these extra 280 pilots going to fly? What's behind such an increase in manpower? It's not like there any extra jets to fly.

[Chris2303]

It's not like there any extra jets to fly.

And in fact there are now two fewer jets available: https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/300859208/air-new-zealand-grounds-two-planes-almost-150000-passengers-impacted

[Massey058]

The number of Pilots applying each month, who meet the requirements, is less than the number being hired. Thus the pool is being drained faster than it’s being filled, it’s that simple.

As I’ve always said, Air NZ needs to control the flow of Link Pilots to Jet based on a sustainable number, not arbitrary percentages like 70:30 or now 90:10 otherwise history just keep repeating itself. The Links run out of Pilots and we end up with another “Link Ban” until they can recover.

If the Links can only release 50 per year (for example), then release 50 a year. Sometimes that’ll be 100% internal, other times it might be 50/50 but it keeps the wheels turning.

Something that I agree with you on is that there shouldn't necessarily hard and fast numbers because reality is far more dynamic.

[ElZilcho]

Eventually we’re supposed to start receiving deliveries of more 787’s to replace the now retired 772’s. I say eventually because between us delaying them and Boeing failing to deliver I’ve mostly tuned out to when they’re actually supposed to show up. We’ve also got another 4 A321 NEO’s on the way from memory… assuming we can find some engines for them.

In anticipation of the eventual seat changes certain Ranks are being over crewed in advance, such as C20 to prepare for the eventual flow into C8. But as always, the choke points further down.

[Kickthetires]

Anyone know if the externals have got a start date or when they’re likely to start? Also curious if the rumours of another interview panel this year is true?

[ElZilcho]

No externals have started.
Recruitment boards are still running but unsure if any are slated for externals at the moment.

There is a looming demand to hire externally, just hasn't happened yet.

[InZed]

Anyone know if the externals have got a start date or when they’re likely to start? Also curious if the rumours of another interview panel this year is true?

the next round of emails have gone out for external psych testing last week

[Seosan]

the next round of emails have gone out for external psych testing last week

Good to see it’s ongoing. Out of interest how many candidates usually make up a board/assessment?

I’ve also seen the company is looking for a manager to lead the new low (or zero) hours pilot recruitment programme. So it seems they have a solution to the lack of suitable prop applicants. An exciting development for aviation in NZ.

[dctPub]

Good to see it’s ongoing. Out of interest how many candidates usually make up a board/assessment?

I’ve also seen the company is looking for a manager to lead the new low (or zero) hours pilot recruitment programme. So it seems they have a solution to the lack of suitable prop applicants. An exciting development for aviation in NZ.


Who says it's for the props?

[Massey058]

Who says it's for the props?

The author of the memorandum.

[dctPub]

The author of the memorandum.

For now.

Doesn't help the left seat problem.

[ElZilcho]

For now.

Doesn't help the left seat problem.

Exactly.
Great opportunity for Pilots to get in early, but they’ll be a long time in the RHS and as we’ve already seen, hiring FO’s with 800-1000 hours has already caused bottlenecks for Command upgrades thus preventing existing Captains from being released. This would only exacerbate things.

Let’s not forget, pre COVID JW wanted SO Cadets on slave wages so they could “build experience” before going to T-Prop FO.

[KickinTyres]

The low hour pilot pathway will only ever supplement new hire recruitment, the main stream will always be GA. Probably better to get your C cat and the 500 hour minimum hour requirement to avoid 'graduate pilot pay'. In saying that it probably won't be very hard to recruit a few classes of very bright young wannabe pilots that wanna fly the koru.

[DDD12]

Hi All :)
Trust you all are well!
I am a FO on the A330 and A320/1 and would appreciate if someone can shed some light to the following please;

1. Has Air NZ started recruitment/ interview process for Externals on Jet? If not, around when would that be?
2. How could someone prepare for the Air NZ interview?
3. What would be a FO Salary before Tax?
4. What would be a SO salary on the B787 before Tax?
5. How many hours per roster are you all rostered for. Here at base, I do about 80 hr rosters
6. What is the hourly rate paid at Air NZ?

Appreciate this much!
Thank you

[Seosan]

Thank you

The majority of these questions are already answered in this rather short thread, just have a wee scroll up and I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for :ok:

​​​

[go123]

Yes they are interviewing.

1st year FO on 320 is $139500, after 1 years service (if you have an ATPL) it jumps to $156,000. From there it increases by about $5000 per year plus CPI inflation plus 0.8%. Tax free allowances are approx 20/30k pa.

1st year SO $124,400 then $139,000 after a year. Allowances 30/40k pa.

On top of the salary is incentive pay. This is variable between fleets and domiciles. But any hours over 60 per 28 day roster your salary is multiplied up to 100hrs.

At the moment on the 320 its about 15% (approx 70 hrs) times your salary and SO are 25% (approx 80hrs) times your salary. Very rough and variable but just an idea of how much you’ll earn.

[AerocatS2A]

6. What is the hourly rate paid at Air NZ?

They don't have an hourly rate. They have "incentive pay" which pays an additional percentage of your pay depending on how many hours over the min guarantee (59 for A320/1, 60 for the Boeings) you worked. Unfortunately it's a sliding scale that works out to be less per hour than what you were paid for the initial 59/60 hours. So say you are earning $156K flying the A320, your hourly rate would be $203 / hour (156000 / (13*59)) for the first 59 hours you work. Then incentive pay kicks in. Initially it's paid at 1.25% of the 4 weekly salary per hour and the percentage increases the more hours you do, this works out to be $150 / hour from 60 - 75 hours. As soon as you go into incentive pay you are getting paid less per additional hour than your ordinary pay. You only get back to earning the same per additional hour of work when you hit 100 hours and even then it's not quite the same. An A320 pilot flying 100 hours will achieve 167.5% of their base salary, meaning they've been paid $197 / hour for their "overtime", still less than their nominal hourly rate.

There are a lot of good things about the contract, but incentive pay isn't one of them. A needlessly complex system that would be far better by just paying the nominal hourly rate for each overtime hour worked (a whole chapter of the contract could be replaced by one line).

Imagine a labourer being asked to do some overtime for 75% of their normal hourly rate. They'd laugh at whichever clown proposed that, they'd laugh even harder when told it's "incentive".

[DDD12]

Thanks alot... appreciate the feedback and info. :)

[ElZilcho]

They don't have an hourly rate. They have "incentive pay" which pays an additional percentage of your pay depending on how many hours over the min guarantee (59 for A320/1, 60 for the Boeings) you worked. Unfortunately it's a sliding scale that works out to be less per hour than what you were paid for the initial 59/60 hours. So say you are earning $156K flying the A320, your hourly rate would be $203 / hour (156000 / (13*59)) for the first 59 hours you work. Then incentive pay kicks in. Initially it's paid at 1.25% of the 4 weekly salary per hour and the percentage increases the more hours you do, this works out to be $150 / hour from 60 - 75 hours. As soon as you go into incentive pay you are getting paid less per additional hour than your ordinary pay. You only get back to earning the same per additional hour of work when you hit 100 hours and even then it's not quite the same. An A320 pilot flying 100 hours will achieve 167.5% of their base salary, meaning they've been paid $197 / hour for their "overtime", still less than their nominal hourly rate.

There are a lot of good things about the contract, but incentive pay isn't one of them. A needlessly complex system that would be far better by just paying the nominal hourly rate for each overtime hour worked (a whole chapter of the contract could be replaced by one line).

Imagine a labourer being asked to do some overtime for 75% of their normal hourly rate. They'd laugh at whichever clown proposed that, they'd laugh even harder when told it's "incentive".

I agree that IP is needlessly complicated and it’s cheaper than hiring more pilots however, it’s not quite the rip off as you make out.

As you said, we don’t have an hourly flight rate, because we’re salaried. So you can’t simply create one by dividing the Salary into 60hr flying rosters because the Salary also covers ground time such as Turnarounds, SIM’s, Call etc

Using $156k as the example, Salaries are based on a 40hr working work which would equate to $75/hr but of course that’s a meaningless number outside of payroll because we don’t work a standard 40hr week.

While other Airlines use flight hour rates and MGP, we don’t. So it’s not a fair analogy.

[TinaTurner]

I received an email from Air NZ stating due to the many applications, my application won’t be progressed at this stage.
They suggested to keep updating and they’ll be in touch.
I guess there is a yes/no letter. Is this a maybe?
I see the application window for the jet jobs has been extended until the end of the year.

[AerocatS2A]

I agree that IP is needlessly complicated and it’s cheaper than hiring more pilots however, it’s not quite the rip off as you make out.

As you said, we don’t have an hourly flight rate, because we’re salaried. So you can’t simply create one by dividing the Salary into 60hr flying rosters because the Salary also covers ground time such as Turnarounds, SIM’s, Call etc

Using $156k as the example, Salaries are based on a 40hr working work which would equate to $75/hr but of course that’s a meaningless number outside of payroll because we don’t work a standard 40hr week.

While other Airlines use flight hour rates and MGP, we don’t. So it’s not a fair analogy.
Well all I know is that my previous (Australian) employer did exactly what I'm suggesting. Salary divided by guaranteed work hours is your hourly pay and any pay on top was at that hourly rate. A callout was at a minimum of 4 hours pay, much better than our Z days. The salary was a salary just like Air NZ. I don't see any difference from our salary and the hourly rate with guaranteed hours that other airlines have, that is a salary in all but name. Our incentive pay clause even talks about "MGP".

[AerocatS2A]

Thanks alot... appreciate the feedback and info. :)

Your inbox is full so I can't reply to your PM.

[DDD12]

Your inbox is full so I can't reply to your PM.
opps... all good now!

[AerocatS2A]

I agree that IP is needlessly complicated and it’s cheaper than hiring more pilots however, it’s not quite the rip off as you make out.

As you said, we don’t have an hourly flight rate, because we’re salaried. So you can’t simply create one by dividing the Salary into 60hr flying rosters because the Salary also covers ground time such as Turnarounds, SIM’s, Call etc

Using $156k as the example, Salaries are based on a 40hr working work which would equate to $75/hr but of course that’s a meaningless number outside of payroll because we don’t work a standard 40hr week.

While other Airlines use flight hour rates and MGP, we don’t. So it’s not a fair analogy.

For comparison here's the Qantas short haul equivalent of incentive pay:


27.4 Additional hourly rate after exceeding minimum guarantee hours

27.4.1 When a pilot exceeds minimum guarantee hours he or she will be paid an additional hourly rate for each such flying hour in excess of fifty three hours and twenty four minutes (53:24) calculated by dividing the applicable annual salary rate by six-hundred-ninety six (696) (“applicable hourly rate”).

27.4.2 For the purposes of this clause 27, actual time involved in deadhead travel for the purposes of a pilot’s proficiency or endorsement will count as the equivalent of flying duties at the rate of one (1) hour for two (2) hours elapsed.

This is the method I think Air NZ should be using. They've taken the annual salary, and yes it's a salary, divided it by the annual guarantee hours, and called that the hourly rate.

[ElZilcho]

For comparison here's the Qantas short haul equivalent of incentive pay:

This is the method I think Air NZ should be using. They've taken the annual salary, and yes it's a salary, divided it by the annual guarantee hours, and called that the hourly rate.

No doubt QF have the better contract, and I suppose it's the gold standard in that regard so something to aim for. You mentioned your previous employer, so if you left QF Mainline for Air NZ I can't blame you for feeling ripped off in that regard. Other Airlines, IP/Overtime doesn't kick in until ~75 hours, so while the rate might be higher you've got to work a lot harder to achieve it, especially when they only pay for block hours. Air NZ's IP is certainly a massive improvement over my last employer, although that was 10 years ago.
What does the QF LH Contract say? Having separate LH and SH contracts is certainly an advantage (from an outsiders POV anyway) as ours was definitely written for LH and adopted for SH, the A320 definitely gets the short end of the stick. I've had some massive Rosters on the Bus where I barely touch IP. Comparatively, I've have 90+ hr LH rosters that, due to strategic bidding, were quite manageable.

So I can certainly agree, for the A320, it needs addressing. For LH, I think it's fine.

[AerocatS2A]

It was Cobham / National Jet. 60 hours in 28 days was the threshold for overtime (except they still had a monthly roster so it was 65.1 hours per calendar month). I’m not saying that it was a better place to work, it wasn’t, there is a lot in the Air NZ contract that is good. Never done LH so can’t comment.

[ElZilcho]

It was Cobham / National Jet. 60 hours in 28 days was the threshold for overtime (except they still had a monthly roster so it was 65.1 hours per calendar month). I’m not saying that it was a better place to work, it wasn’t, there is a lot in the Air NZ contract that is good. Never done LH so can’t comment.

LH is a different world. 60hrs can be achieved in 2 trips, or 90hrs in 3 if you bid strategically, especially when we were going to LHR. 3 vs 4 Pilot trips has more effect on fatigue than roster hours.

My last job also had a higher hourly IP rate than Air NZ, similar calc to QF, but the higher threshold combined with a lower overall salary/MGP meant it was all smoke and mirrors.

[runna]

I received an email from Air NZ stating due to the many applications, my application won’t be progressed at this stage.
They suggested to keep updating and they’ll be in touch.
I guess there is a yes/no letter. Is this a maybe?
I see the application window for the jet jobs has been extended until the end of the year.

I got exactly the same, wasn't quite sure what it actually means.

Is there any update on external hiring? Has the second lot gone through for interview yet?

[ScepticalOptomist]

I got exactly the same, wasn't quite sure what it actually means.

Is there any update on external hiring? Has the second lot gone through for interview yet?

Sounds like that is the No letter. Update them every 6 months or so and have another crack at it next time. Good luck - and don’t let it stop you trying again!

[wantobe]

I got exactly the same, wasn't quite sure what it actually means.

Is there any update on external hiring? Has the second lot gone through for interview yet?


Curious, what's your experience?

[Shazza Hazza]

Second interview panel 6-7 Jul. Has anyone got insider knowledge on when the next one will be?

From Air NZ:We anticipate hiring a small number of external pilots into the jet fleet later this year. Next year it is likely we will need to increase the number of new jet pilots recruited from external sources, as our ability to hire into the turboprop fleets (to backfill movements to the jet) becomes more challenged after two years of very strong recruitment. At some point in 2024 it is likely that we will need to exceed the 10% external hiring ratio and trigger the appoint and second mechanism provided for in the RPPP.

Interest in the turboprop first officer role remains strong, but the percentage of applicants who meet our minimum requirements is decreasing. For example, as a result of the nature of our GA industry, one of our biggest challenges is finding enough pilots with solid IFR experience and a current instrument rating.

[runna]

Curious, what's your experience?

3000 hours 320 FO, NZ licensed but not current

[Seosan]

3000 hours 320 FO, NZ licensed but not current

I imagine that with the currently incredibly small number of jet externals being recruited that the HR team can apply incredibly selective filters to whittle down the applicants. I’d reckon that even something like not having a current NZ licence would be enough to go in the maybe later basket for now.

[On Guard]

I imagine that with the currently incredibly small number of jet externals being recruited that the HR team can apply incredibly selective filters to whittle down the applicants. I’d reckon that even something like not having a current NZ licence would be enough to go in the maybe later basket for now.

Meanwhile in Australia….
Frustrating NZ industry is so small.

[AerocatS2A]

I doubt many external jet hires have a current NZ licence. The licence becomes current through the normal course of training anyway.

[ruralaviator]

It's not that I think your points are wrong - I'm sure there are plenty of Pilots who love the RPPP, but I disagree with it being what's best for Airline, and in turn, all of it's Pilots. I view the RPPP as only being beneficial to small group of Senior Regional Pilots at others expense. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. If I knew then what I knew now my career would likely have been vastly different. To a new hire 20 year old, a guaranteed Air NZ Jet job in 10-12 years might sounds amazing, because they never knew they could do it in 4-6.

As the 20 year old, (19 finishing a CPL and MEIR), what's the best thing to do,try join the links asap and joining the 8 year queue or push your career elsewhere until ready to come back to the Jets as an external. Always wanted to do an OE of some sort in my 20's and go fly a jet somewhere else in the world and explore for a bit while I'm young, but the goal is to always come back to the Jets. Is the externals going to remain a viable pathway into Air NZ jet in the future or would I be better off to just start at the links and stay at Air NZ for my whole career.

[waterbottle]

Be very careful relying on the recruitment process remaining the same. The Company will (understandably, if misguidedly) always do what it thinks is best for itself.

The instant this current process becomes a hindrance, or new management come into play, the rules will be changed. That’s not a guess looking forward, that’s a statement from looking back.

Decisions made at your age often come without the burdens we have when older, and often turn out to be the best decisions we ever make. Take some risks and enjoy your life.

[ElZilcho]

As the 20 year old, (19 finishing a CPL and MEIR), what's the best thing to do,try join the links asap and joining the 8 year queue or push your career elsewhere until ready to come back to the Jets as an external. Always wanted to do an OE of some sort in my 20's and go fly a jet somewhere else in the world and explore for a bit while I'm young, but the goal is to always come back to the Jets. Is the externals going to remain a viable pathway into Air NZ jet in the future or would I be better off to just start at the links and stay at Air NZ for my whole career.

Purely from a career progression and financial POV, you want to get an Air NZ Seniority number at the first opportunity if that’s where you ultimately wish to end up.

Doing an OE and flying Jets around the world make for great life experiences and work stories, but count for absolutely zero in the grand scheme of things at a seniority based legacy carrier and can be the difference between retiring as an FO or getting a Widebody Command before you’re 50.

Unfortunately, none of us have a crystal ball and can tell you what the Landcsape will be when you decide to come home. You could get picked up 2 weeks after applying or sitting in a “please keep updating your application” file for another 5 years, or longer.
The current RPPP process is destined to fail, but it’s also more written in stone than any process we’ve had in the past given it has no out clause for the company other than tag and release.

However….

The flip side to going overseas, is you might decide to not come back. There’s a thread at the moment talking about Aussie Airlines being a “noose around your neck” and believe me, Air NZ is no different. When you’re mid 40’s, with a family and 10-15 years of Seniority it’s extremely difficult to pack up and leave if you become unhappy. The gloss of living in NZ has well been eroded in the past decade (or more) and our salaries have failed to keep up with inflation. Something that doesn’t necessarily become obvious until you’ve got a Mortgage, Family and hit the salary cap for your rank, watching your bid for promotion barely budge as more Pilots continue past 65 for the same reasons.

Just like life, this career is full of decisions and consequences. Looking back, I don’t think Air NZ was the right decision for me based on my age of joining, the direction NZ as a country is going and recent world events that I could have never predicted. In another 5-10 years however, it could all change.

[777xpilot]

100% Agree with EZilcho, this is one of the reasons why I didn't bother to go ahead and accept my offer with ANZ. The progression is seriously slow and NZ is just getting worse. I never understood flight instructors during my training seeing ANZ as the big golden ticket when there's better opportunities overseas, but if your wanting to raise a family here by all means necessary go for it. However I would never spend 6+ years on the turbo props at ANZ link.

[Seosan]

As the 20 year old

Incredibly sage words from Elzilcho above.

It is incredibly difficult to plan your entire life out in advance, and this career is a real buggar with most airlines rewarding time spent in company along with being very quick to give people the boot or stop recruiting in downturns.

At your age, I had a very different idea of what I wanted out of life to what I do now. The same might be said for yourself, I’ve flown in Europe with a couple of lads who got a jet command at 26/27 and now face the prospect of little to no change or progression for the majority of their working life. They find it incredibly difficult to leave because to go elsewhere would be cutting their salary in half. Obviously in Air NZ there’s fleet variety, but as EZ said, NZ is not the be-all-end-all and you might gain some life satisfaction by giving it a crack overseas. If you have a passport that lets you work in the EU, there are some great contracts, fantastic places to live and plenty of opportunities for travel. It’s not utopia, and the work is tough sometimes, but it’s all about what you want from life.

My advice is always to try and hone in what you enjoy about flying and what you want from life. The links is arguably the most fun airline flying you can have, shooting visuals into uncontrolled ADs etc, but you exchange fun for a low salary and some really long days. If you’ve got roots in a region where there’s a base (Napier, Nelson, Chch etc) it might work perfectly for you. If travelling and seeing the world is at the forefront of your mind then perhaps a jet job in Europe would work better, decent pay, cheaper cost of living and the variety of Europe on your doorstep.

Its hard not to want to forward plan, as a species it’s what us pilots like doing. However, at 20 you can’t be thinking “well it’s 24 years to command at NZ jet so I better join the links by May 3rd 2034 or I’m screwed”. So much of this job (and getting the job you want) is about luck and timing. The industry changes year on year, the entry requirements change and the attrition rate at the top (what your whole career depends on) changes too.

Its a toughy mate, but the good news is the job is largely great no matter what you choose. Best of luck 👍🏼

[Makiko]

Why don't youngish or not so youngish NZs work in Australia for a few years
get Australian Citizenship (keep NZ citizenship) , thus being eligible for the massive amount of jobs in USA via E3

Think , it was recently made easier for NZs in Australia to get citizenship (did they reduce the four year time period)

With basic licences you would need a bit of flight time to make yourself competitive for the NZ links , would think

Looks like still 4 years in Australia on Special Category Visa, made easier this year (possibly don't have to go through permanent resident stepping stone)

Do you guys actually realise how short so many of the Aussie TP/Jet operators are atm ?

[KiwiAvi8er]

Purely from a career progression and financial POV, you want to get an Air NZ Seniority number at the first opportunity if that’s where you ultimately wish to end up.

Doing an OE and flying Jets around the world make for great life experiences and work stories, but count for absolutely zero in the grand scheme of things at a seniority based legacy carrier and can be the difference between retiring as an FO or getting a Widebody Command before you’re 50.

Unfortunately, none of us have a crystal ball and can tell you what the Landcsape will be when you decide to come home. You could get picked up 2 weeks after applying or sitting in a “please keep updating your application” file for another 5 years, or longer.
The current RPPP process is destined to fail, but it’s also more written in stone than any process we’ve had in the past given it has no out clause for the company other than tag and release.

However….

The flip side to going overseas, is you might decide to not come back. There’s a thread at the moment talking about Aussie Airlines being a “noose around your neck” and believe me, Air NZ is no different. When you’re mid 40’s, with a family and 10-15 years of Seniority it’s extremely difficult to pack up and leave if you become unhappy. The gloss of living in NZ has well been eroded in the past decade (or more) and our salaries have failed to keep up with inflation. Something that doesn’t necessarily become obvious until you’ve got a Mortgage, Family and hit the salary cap for your rank, watching your bid for promotion barely budge as more Pilots continue past 65 for the same reasons.

Just like life, this career is full of decisions and consequences. Looking back, I don’t think Air NZ was the right decision for me based on my age of joining, the direction NZ as a country is going and recent world events that I could have never predicted. In another 5-10 years however, it could all change.

Surely the out for the RPPP for the company is that it’s just a ‘policy’. Not attached to any collective agreement etc. They’ll just say it’s not working as intended, sorry. Rip it up.

[ElZilcho]

100% Agree with EZilcho, this is one of the reasons why I didn't bother to go ahead and accept my offer with ANZ. The progression is seriously slow and NZ is just getting worse. I never understood flight instructors during my training seeing ANZ as the big golden ticket when there's better opportunities overseas, but if your wanting to raise a family here by all means necessary go for it. However I would never spend 6+ years on the turbo props at ANZ link.

Once upon a time, it was the golden ticket... for some, with A320 Commands in their early to mid 30's, it still is. The problem with NZ Aviation being so cyclical is we don't all get to have the same careers. 6 Years in the Links isn't so bad if you join at 20 with 500 hours as your first job, different story if you got stuck in GA during a downturn or joining from the RNZAF.


Do you guys actually realise how short so many of the Aussie TP/Jet operators are atm ?

Anecdotally, I'd say there's more than a handful at Air NZ Link and even Jet looking across the ditch... wont take much to push them over, perhaps the next Election result will do it.
Not to say everything's Rosey in Australian Airlines either, but it's a much better place to live.

Surely the out for the RPPP for the company is that it’s just a ‘policy’. Not attached to any collective agreement etc. They’ll just say it’s not working as intended, sorry. Rip it up.

The honest answer is I don't know for certain. That was certainly my assumption, but recent cockpit gossip has suggested otherwise. Apparently because it's a signed agreement between the Company and ALPA, it requires mutual agreement to terminate. Questions are being asked how it got past legal and signed in the first place... perhaps a certain Exec acting with too much autonomy jumped the gun. Time will tell I suppose.

[777xpilot]

If anyone doesn't see a long term career with ANZ I'd say its best to work for another airline overseas. I know a few instructors who have been trying for years to get an interview with ANZ and they have had no luck.

[On Guard]

If anyone doesn't see a long term career with ANZ I'd say it’sbest to work for another airline overseas. I know a few instructors who have been trying for years to get an interview with ANZ and they have had no luck.

Yes, for our 20 year old, I would suggest you take the first job that gets you on the ladder and that includes jobs in AU. At this stage of your career you cannot be fussy as the music will stop again.

Once you have a seat you will be amazed at the doors that begin to open including Air NZ whether you are in or external.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Will this leased 777 ramp up the manpower requirements for this year above what’s already forecast? Must be quite a few more external recruitment boards lined up with the numbers required.

[ElZilcho]

Will this leased 777 ramp up the manpower requirements for this year above what’s already forecast? Must be quite a few more external recruitment boards lined up with the numbers required.

We don't have enough manpower for the current 777 fleet, let alone when the lease arrives... something needs to ramp up somewhere, but no word on that being external recruitment in 2023.

[Seosan]

Quick question regarding seniority and bidding based on what EZ said in the wages thread:

If you’re looking at 18 years in the company before F7, what are the timelines for C7, C8? Is it possible to move from C20 directly to C8? Or once your on short haul are you kind of stuck?

What’s the average pathway? I know it’s been said that plenty of people stick as SO until a window seat pops up, but is bidding for every rank/seat cumulative, i.e. just based on your overall position on the MSL?

Hypothetically, if you took a C20 spot after five years and joined the captains pay scale, if you jumped over to F8 after five years in the LHS would you rejoin the new FO scale at year one? Or year eight based on start date?

[ElZilcho]

Quick question regarding seniority and bidding based on what EZ said in the wages thread:

If you’re looking at 18 years in the company before F7, what are the timelines for C7, C8? Is it possible to move from C20 directly to C8? Or once your on short haul are you kind of stuck?

What’s the average pathway? I know it’s been said that plenty of people stick as SO until a window seat pops up, but is bidding for every rank/seat cumulative, i.e. just based on your overall position on the MSL?

Hypothetically, if you took a C20 spot after five years and joined the captains pay scale, if you jumped over to F8 after five years in the LHS would you rejoin the new FO scale at year one? Or year eight based on start date?

Pay Steps are based on Years of Service, so after 7 Years you'll hit the Yr8 Cap (SO/FO) regardless of how many times you swap fleet/ranks (2 year lock on applies when you change fleets, but not seats within a fleet).

Command Payscales work slightly differently. After 6 years you begin to accrue notional Command Pay... if you took a Command at 6 Years or less, you'd start on Year 1, but at 7 Years you'd start on year 2 etc, reaching the top Command step after 18 Years.
If you happen to be fortunate enough to get an early Command, then you would reach the Year 12 Cap a few years earlier, even if you bid back to FO on another fleet.

You can bid, and achieve, any position you have the Seniority for. Pre-COVID we had SO's bid and achieve C20. Needless to say, this made the Company nervous so they insisted on giving them some RHS experience first.... on Command Pay.

Timeline wise, S7, S8 and F20 are all entry level positions.
At the moment, both C20 and F8 sit around 9-10 Years. F7 ~18, C8, ~22 C7, ~30. The 777 however, isn't planned to stick around long (so they say), we had 15 pre-COVID now 7 (soon to be 8 with a lease). Doubt I'll ever see C7 let alone a new hire seeing F7. We also have ARP Captains (Age Restricted Pilots, being over 65) on the Widebodies flying the Tasman, with the possibility of extending it to FO's as well which is slowing things down. Needless to say, the vast majority of us aren't happy about this but ALPA said we're wrong and to shut up about it. So there's that to consider.

[Seosan]

Good info thanks again mate. So you reckon if they biff the triple it will rocket the wait times for the 78?

We also have ARP Captains (Age Restricted Pilots, being over 65) on the Widebodies flying the Tasman, with the possibility of extending it to FO's as well which is slowing things down.

Very interesting. I’d previously been told you couldn’t do international after 65 but I suppose Aussie isn’t considered under that umbrella.

[ElZilcho]

Good info thanks again mate. So you reckon if they biff the triple it will rocket the wait times for the 78?

If/when we become a 2 Fleet Airline (as is the stated goal) it will be interesting to see how the Seniority list re-arranges itself. As I mentioned, F8 pays more than a Junior C20 all things considered, then, when C20 starts pulling ahead, F7 comes up. Without F7 will we see C20 go higher? Hard to say, but that's what happened during the COVID re-shuffle. A lot of F7's saw F8 as a paycut so were "down-trained" to C20. Ultimately, the numbers will depend on how many Airframes we actually end up with, and if they stick to their 787 only LH fleet, or see value in the 777x/A350. ULR seems to be a big focus and I'm not convinced the 787 is the right Aircraft for it.

Very interesting. I’d previously been told you couldn’t do international after 65 but I suppose Aussie isn’t considered under that umbrella.

Both NZ and AUS have filed differences with ICAO.
On the 320 Fleet it's a non-issue really, as there's very few destinations they can't fly to. On the Widebodies however, it's basically a Tasman Command as most destination they Can't operate to. It's created a special branch within each fleet who fall well outside our roster balancing and bidding rules, but seems here to stay.

[waterbottle]

Needless to say, the vast majority of us aren't happy about this but ALPA said we're wrong and to shut up about it. So there's that to consider.

The vast majority need to vote the leadership out. Never seems to happen.

[BO0M]

. We also have ARP Captains (Age Restricted Pilots, being over 65) on the Widebodies flying the Tasman, with the possibility of extending it to FO's as well which is slowing things down. Needless to say, the vast majority of us aren't happy about this but ALPA said we're wrong and to shut up about it. So there's that to consider.

What would you have ALPA do? Do you remember the court case brought against Air NZ many moons ago by the Retreads that ensured the company couldn't discriminate against those over 65? ALPA is absolutely powerless to do anything about it legally. What could be done though is when negotiating the contract again is place clauses that ensure those over 65 retain their current rank and pay but must move to the domestic jet fleet. Company would get on board and the case for discrimination against them would be very weak as they arent taking pay cuts or demotions. It might even encourage guys/girls to just retire.

[ElZilcho]

What would you have ALPA do? Do you remember the court case brought against Air NZ many moons ago by the Retreads that ensured the company couldn't discriminate against those over 65? ALPA is absolutely powerless to do anything about it legally. What could be done though is when negotiating the contract again is place clauses that ensure those over 65 retain their current rank and pay but must move to the domestic jet fleet. Company would get on board and the case for discrimination against them would be very weak as they arent taking pay cuts or demotions. It might even encourage guys/girls to just retire.

Never felt an A320 Command while collecting the pension was discrimination but unfortunately I’m not a QC and can’t sell that opinion to the union. Hire 100 lawyers and get 100 different interpretations of “reasonable accommodation”. The status quo was fine until certain individuals made some noise and were effectively given what they wanted unchallenged.

Speaks volumes when an OG Fed starts strutting around in an ALPA Lanyard after jumping ship (again) because of their ARP support.
One of guys who spearheaded the ARP (GM), when he was still an FO, was bitching and moaning at ALPA meetings about Pilots not retiring and delaying his career progression.

Paying them, effectively bypass pay, opens up a massive can of worms which I don’t think either parties want to touch. Right now, there’s a cap on the number of ARP positions on the WB fleets. If they were to get bypass pay on the A320 there would be no such cap and likely cost the company a lot more. There’s nearly 50 over 65 on the list at the moment, not all are flying, but there’s a lot on the Airbus who would get a massive pay rise overnight.

Whole things a farce, the trial was never a trial, it was to “determine numbers”. But as I said, it is what it is.

[Down3Red]

Hi All - Turbo captain sitting mid/low on the RPPP list. Has there been any further chat regarding if/when/how the RPPP will work with ~300 jet pilots required over the next few years.

will the RPPP hold up? - company+alpa seems to be holding off information, they’ve done the “forecasting” on whether it will work but aren’t sharing the knowledge

Without a proper Pathway there is 0 reason to stay in the turboprops and we’d just like a decent yes/no so we can plan the future and leave asap rather than waiting for it to blow up. Especially considering starting FO turboprop pay is 68k (only a few handfuls above the $30p/hr ground staff now get to chuck bags) - no wonder we have FO’s leaving to J* Aus for 130k AUD starting

any info / yarns / rumours would be appreciated

D3R

[ElZilcho]

Hi All - Turbo captain sitting mid/low on the RPPP list. Has there been any further chat regarding if/when/how the RPPP will work with ~300 jet pilots required over the next few years.

will the RPPP hold up? - company+alpa seems to be holding off information, they’ve done the “forecasting” on whether it will work but aren’t sharing the knowledge

Without a proper Pathway there is 0 reason to stay in the turboprops and we’d just like a decent yes/no so we can plan the future and leave asap rather than waiting for it to blow up. Especially considering starting FO turboprop pay is 68k (only a few handfuls above the $30p/hr ground staff now get to chuck bags) - no wonder we have FO’s leaving to J* Aus for 130k AUD starting

any info / yarns / rumours would be appreciated

D3R

Company will never give you a “no” outside of a formal interview (as was the old system) because a “no” would mean you’re definitely going to leave. A dangling carrot such as a “maybe” or a “not now” is more likely to keep you around.

As you mentioned, we need 300 odd Jet Pilots. That’s what, half the RSL? How many FO’s are left who meet the Command requirements? We can hire as many 500hr Pilots as we like, doesn’t solve the eventual LHS shortage. And that’s always been the issue. The Company and ALPA are silent about it, likely because they’ve backed themselves into a corner, or (rumour time) because they’re working on an SO Cadetship as part of this 200hr Pilot Programme.

New hires start on minimum wage in the back of a 787, on the bottom of the GOP list then go off to Link after 2-3 years with 2000hrs of bunk time to pad out the logbook and Regional Captains move onto F20. Air NZ gets to keep their RPPP, slash their wage bill for SO’s and ALPA gets their GOP list. But that’s just a rumour… they could just have every Regional Captain on tag & release within 2 years then wonder why no externals are applying.

All I can say is, leave or stay, accept the consequences of that decision. I left the Links many years ago to fly Jets elsewhere because I refused to put my career on hold while they dangled the carrot, but there was no pathway then.
With the 8 year stand down now, and already having a Command, it’s highly likely you’re better off staying. Even if you don’t get a Jet start you’ll likely get a Seniority number in due course, and ultimately that’s what counts…. If you want to stay in NZ.

However, if I were a new hire into the Links? I’d probably do my bond then leave. And if that happens, the shortage of experienced FO’s for Commands will only get worse.

Honestly it’s all crystal ball stuff right now. They don’t tell us anymore than they’re telling you. Even recruiters don’t know what’s going to happen next year when the Links can’t keep up with demand.

[dctPub]

As you mentioned, we need 300 odd Jet Pilots.

Is this realistic? The list is gonna grow to 1400ish pilots?

[On Guard]

Is this realistic? The list is gonna grow to 1400ish pilots?

Possibly same issues facing QF with a high rate of retirements until 2030. They need 1000.

[dctPub]

Possibly same issues facing QF with a high rate of retirements until 2030. They need 1000.

Haven't you heard? Pilots don't retire anymore. Just do day flights in the cripple across the Tasman til you die.

[Ollie Onion]

The medical will retire a few before they die. It is true though that many 'older' pilots would retire if faced with a full-time A320 roster but let's face it, a few trips across the Tassie in the widebody if a pretty desirable position to be in and most will do it as will most of the younger guys/girls when they reach that age. It is pointless getting twisted in a knot over it as it is changes to legislation that have allowed it and the over 65s have as much right as anyone to use the applicable laws to extend/maintain their careers as they see fit. When I was overseas flying the retirement age at my airline went from 55 to 65 at the start of the tax year in 2006. If you reached 55 the day before you were out the door, if you reached 55 the day after you could go another 10 years, sometimes life sucks and we always get these scenarios where things change that disadvantage different groups. You can't blame those on the Tasman routes for taking advantage of those changes.

[dctPub]

You can't blame those on the Tasman routes for taking advantage of those changes.

Of course not, but that won't stop us taking the absolute P155 out of the superannuants choosing to do so.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x763/average_arp_03aa1bacf7d6615f03cb735a1d584ce71a74fdb5.jpeg

[Ollie Onion]

Of course not, but that won't stop us taking the absolute P155 out of the superannuants choosing to do so.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x763/average_arp_03aa1bacf7d6615f03cb735a1d584ce71a74fdb5.jpeg

That is of course everyone’s right to do so :-)

[ElZilcho]

The medical will retire a few before they die. It is true though that many 'older' pilots would retire if faced with a full-time A320 roster but let's face it, a few trips across the Tassie in the widebody if a pretty desirable position to be in and most will do it as will most of the younger guys/girls when they reach that age. It is pointless getting twisted in a knot over it as it is changes to legislation that have allowed it and the over 65s have as much right as anyone to use the applicable laws to extend/maintain their careers as they see fit. When I was overseas flying the retirement age at my airline went from 55 to 65 at the start of the tax year in 2006. If you reached 55 the day before you were out the door, if you reached 55 the day after you could go another 10 years, sometimes life sucks and we always get these scenarios where things change that disadvantage different groups. You can't blame those on the Tasman routes for taking advantage of those changes.

Many of us are accepting of them continuing past 65, but not of the special branch that’s been created on the Widebodies to accomodate them at the expense of everyone else.

It craps all over the bidding system and roster balancing.

[framer]

Many of us are accepting of them continuing past 65, but not of the special branch that’s been created on the Widebodies to accomodate them at the expense of everyone else.
That sounds fair enough to me because surely some of the remuneration paid to wide body crew is for the hardships of long haul flying. If you’re not facing the same hardships ( family life disruptions, circadian disruptions)maybe the remuneration should be less than those who are?
​​​​​​​Maybe it is?

[Space Yak]

Bumping this to the top in the hope of more updates. I originally got the “currently unable to progress your application” email in May, but have now completed the cognitive assessment and am waiting for an interview board date. Some questions to throw out there…

How many externals have been interviewed/hired so far? How long is the tag and release list now?
Future recruitment board dates, how many per month, how far in advance are they filled? What is the timeline like up until the start date. Any other useful interview info?
Why is the 777 so much more senior than the 787? (Based on previous upgrade comments)
For first preference options, what are some S7 vs S8 considerations? Likelihood of only being offered F20?
What is the company KiwiSaver contribution?
How many min days off per roster? How many LH trips? Trip length?
How many weeks annual leave?
How good/bad is pilot morale out on the line right now?

PM’s welcome. Cheers.

[DDD12]

Hi all,
Does anyone have info. on the NZ ATPL Air Law exam? Or have any notes please?
Apologies for posting on this thread. Need to do this exam and appreciate the help!
Thank you

[On Guard]

Hi all,
Does anyone have info. on the NZ ATPL Air Law exam? Or have any notes please?
Apologies for posting on this thread. Need to do this exam and appreciate the help!
Thank you

https://www.stoneybrook.training/airline-transport-pilot-theory

[ElZilcho]

Bumping this to the top in the hope of more updates. I originally got the “currently unable to progress your application” email in May, but have now completed the cognitive assessment and am waiting for an interview board date. Some questions to throw out there…

How many externals have been interviewed/hired so far? How long is the tag and release list now?
Future recruitment board dates, how many per month, how far in advance are they filled? What is the timeline like up until the start date. Any other useful interview info?
Why is the 777 so much more senior than the 787? (Based on previous upgrade comments)
For first preference options, what are some S7 vs S8 considerations? Likelihood of only being offered F20?
What is the company KiwiSaver contribution?
How many min days off per roster? How many LH trips? Trip length?
How many weeks annual leave?
How good/bad is pilot morale out on the line right now?

PM’s welcome. Cheers.

There have been 2 external boards this year that I know of, so ~20 interviewed with 6 expected to start in Nov. Roughly 40 Pilots are either on LWOP or Regional Trainers on Secondment.
P&W engine issues have delayed the company publishing an updated course forecast and they've also cancelled a number of A320 courses this year due to training capacity issues.
Morale is rather low at the moment due to ongoing lifestyle concerns. Bid satisfaction is down, 777 Pilots are getting flogged and Airbus Pilots are doing 3 Call rosters a year. Unfortunately, managements decisions around post COVID fleet and Pilot numbers have proven to be woefully inadequate. We simply don't have enough Aircraft at the moment, especially with a number of NEO's grounded without engines, which is somewhat masking a current Pilot shortage. Recruitment should keep ticking over to ensure we have the numbers to fly additional Aircraft as they arrive, or get new engines.

The 777 is more Senior to the 787 simply because it pays more, except for SO's who are on the same rate regardless of fleet. S7 vs S8 really comes down to route structure. 777 you'll mostly be doing LAX, SFO & IAH while the 787 goes everywhere else. For what it's worth, 777 has the better Crew Rest!

LH Trip length can vary from 2 days to over a week on ULR Trips (SO's only do ORD at the moment). Company releases a bid pack for each roster specifying the average days off and hours flown. If you bid for short trips you'll do more than if you bid for long ones, but with few exceptions, everyone has to fit within the "window". It's a Seniority Bias system meaning a Senior Pilots bids carry more weight than a Juniors but we're all expected to do the same amount of work so keep that in mind when bidding.
10 Days off per 28 day roster with a few fleet specifics around dipping below and rolling averages.
Annual leave is 34 Days + 11 Public holidays which can be converted to leave or accrued as AHR's (days in Lieu). The leave system is a bit convoluted, we have an annual ballot to book leave so you really need to plan ahead and we used balancing days to take leave in either 7 or 14 day blocks. Long Service leave and other benefits come later.
7.5% Kiwisaver.

[KiwiAvi8er]

There have been 2 external boards this year that I know of, so ~20 interviewed with 6 expected to start in Nov. Roughly 40 Pilots are either on LWOP or Regional Trainers on Secondment.
P&W engine issues have delayed the company publishing an updated course forecast and they've also cancelled a number of A320 courses this year due to training capacity issues.
Morale is rather low at the moment due to ongoing lifestyle concerns. Bid satisfaction is down, 777 Pilots are getting flogged and Airbus Pilots are doing 3 Call rosters a year. Unfortunately, managements decisions around post COVID fleet and Pilot numbers have proven to be woefully inadequate. We simply don't have enough Aircraft at the moment, especially with a number of NEO's grounded without engines, which is somewhat masking a current Pilot shortage. Recruitment should keep ticking over to ensure we have the numbers to fly additional Aircraft as they arrive, or get new engines.

The 777 is more Senior to the 787 simply because it pays more, except for SO's who are on the same rate regardless of fleet. S7 vs S8 really comes down to route structure. 777 you'll mostly be doing LAX, SFO & IAH while the 787 goes everywhere else. For what it's worth, 777 has the better Crew Rest!

LH Trip length can vary from 2 days to over a week on ULR Trips (SO's only do ORD at the moment). Company releases a bid pack for each roster specifying the average days off and hours flown. If you bid for short trips you'll do more than if you bid for long ones, but with few exceptions, everyone has to fit within the "window". It's a Seniority Bias system meaning a Senior Pilots bids carry more weight than a Juniors but we're all expected to do the same amount of work so keep that in mind when bidding.
10 Days off per 28 day roster with a few fleet specifics around dipping below and rolling averages.
Annual leave is 34 Days + 11 Public holidays which can be converted to leave or accrued as AHR's (days in Lieu). The leave system is a bit convoluted, we have an annual ballot to book leave so you really need to plan ahead and we used balancing days to take leave in either 7 or 14 day blocks. Long Service leave and other benefits come later.
7.5% Kiwisaver.

What are the rough increase in crew numbers required for this extra leased 777 being added?

It will be interesting to see if further leases are added if the 320 Neo fleet are going to be grounded.

[ElZilcho]

What are the rough increase in crew numbers required for this extra leased 777 being added?

It will be interesting to see if further leases are added if the 320 Neo fleet are going to be grounded.

The Widebodies run roughly 9 Crew Sets per Aircraft, so call it 25-30. Appears we’re on the hunt for a 2nd lease, likely from Cathay, but that wouldn’t arrive until next year sometime.

With the 777 being so senior, every window seat position creates seat changes that filter all the way down, and with training capacity issues on the 320 it’s difficult to say how the numbers will work out, in the short term at least. If the leases are going to stick around for a number of years they’ll have to properly crew them eventually.

As for the NEO’s, 2 of 3 Domestic 321’s have been parked and stripped of their engines to keep the international ones going. Believe we’re due a 4th Domestic delivery this month which will likely end up the same.
If the issues did escalate to the point of NEO’s being grounded it would be absolutely devastating as all our CEO’s are non-EDTO Domestic configs. The international fleet is entirely NEO’s.
Like the RR Trent 1000 on the 787 however, I doubt we’ll see the whole fleet grounded, just more restrictions and inspections.

In theory, none of this should have any impact on recruitment because we’re already short on Pilots. New 787’s start arriving next year along with continued NEO deliveries. When the smoke clears, last thing we want is to still be parking Aircraft due to a lack of crew.

[high_flyer747]

Anyone know if any Air nz jet pilots are applying for QF mainline to come across here?

[dctPub]

Anyone know if any Air nz jet pilots are applying for QF mainline to come across here?

You? :E

[Skankhunt]

Anyone know if any Air nz jet pilots are applying for QF mainline to come across here?

Not sure but many turboprop guys are from what I’m hearing.

[Nine_Inch__Wings]

Hello all,

could someone please tell me how hard the 320 guys and gals work?

as I understand it, airnz pays a 40hr work week, so I imagine they could theoretically push a pilot a bit harder than their Qantas equivalent for same money ?

thanks!

[Lapon]

Hello all,

could someone please tell me how hard the 320 guys and gals work?

as I understand it, airnz pays a 40hr work week, so I imagine they could theoretically push a pilot a bit harder than their Qantas equivalent for same money ?

thanks!

Not a 40 hour flying week they don't.

Your probably mistaking a base salary with incentive pay.

[dctPub]

hard enough that no one wants to stay on it and bid across to SO. Not to mention you’ll make more as an SO.

Hello all,

could someone please tell me how hard the 320 guys and gals work?

as I understand it, airnz pays a 40hr work week, so I imagine they could theoretically push a pilot a bit harder than their Qantas equivalent for same money ?

thanks!

[AerocatS2A]

Hello all,

could someone please tell me how hard the 320 guys and gals work?

as I understand it, airnz pays a 40hr work week, so I imagine they could theoretically push a pilot a bit harder than their Qantas equivalent for same money ?

thanks!
You might be getting confused with wording around salaries. A320 pilots get incentive pay after 59 flying hours over the 28 day roster. What counts as “flying hours” for the purpose of incentive pay is complicated but it basically boils down to flight time or duty minus three hours, whichever is more, for each duty period. Whether that amounts to working hard or not depends greatly on the make-up of the roster. Ten Tasman returns would be about 70 hours for the roster with 18 days off, that’s much closer to “hardly working” than “working hard”, on the other hand you can do a lot of shortish domestic duties with single days off and not much, if any, incentive pay. It just depends on the crumbling of the cookie. Mostly you get a mix of both. Personally my only complaint is finishing late, having a single “day off” then starting early. If I can’t have a beer on one of the nights then it doesn’t feel like a day off, IMO. (And I don’t even want a beer most of the time, it’s just knowing that I could have one if I wanted to.)

[framer]

Ten Tasman returns would be about 70 hours for the roster with 18 days off, that’s much closer to “hardly working” than “working hard”
Whoa you’re a much more robust pilot than me! Ten Tasmans and I’m considering changing my profession :)

[AerocatS2A]

Whoa you’re a much more robust pilot than me! Ten Tasmans and I’m considering changing my profession :)
Well I don’t think anyone would actually get a roster like that, it’s normally a mix.

[Nine_Inch__Wings]

Thanks !

Whats a sort of ‘average’ or normal amount of flying for the 320?

Is it easy to pick up shifts if needed, or work less if you wanted ?

[AerocatS2A]

Thanks !

Whats a sort of ‘average’ or normal amount of flying for the 320?

Is it easy to pick up shifts if needed, or work less if you wanted ?

Maybe 70 hours per 28 day roster. You can bid for high incentive and low incentive rosters but it gets balanced over the long term so all pilots should average about the same number of hours.

[ElZilcho]

The Average A320 Roster will be 60-65hr IP with 10-12 Days off while the Average SO Roster would be 70-80hrs with 12-14 Days off.
Generally speaking, on the Bus you'll do less IP for more days worked due to the high volume of Domestic flying... then out of the blue you'll get smacked with an outlier roster and push 85 hrs while everyone else is doing 60.

Bidding plays a massive part in your lifestyle. On the Bus, if you wanted, you could avoid overnights and bid entirely on early starts that finish by 3pm and see your kids after School. Or you could chase overnights and avoid early starts.
Long Haul is much the same. Do you want to chase Long trips with clear days off overseas? Or prefer shorter out and backs with more time at home? So long as your bids fit the window, you can achieve either.

If you assume the first 8-10 years at Air NZ will be as an SO/F20 I'd advise giving both a go.

[starmaid]

Hallo,

So I'm flying the 320 overseas and AirNZ has asked me to complete their assessment.

Whats the scoop on hiring externals atm? Pointers on the recruitment process?

Thanks

[starmaid]

Year 1: $120k
Year 2: $134k
Year 8: $153k

SO’s, on average, fly higher hours than 320 FO’s so the take home works out roughly the same.


Ummmm, "how" does one land up being SO for "8" years? That's mighty excessive!

[Lapon]

Ummmm, "how" does one land up being SO for "8" years? That's mighty excessive!

By avoiding short haul. I'd probably do it too if I worked there.

[starmaid]

Hi all,
Does anyone have info. on the NZ ATPL Air Law exam? Or have any notes please?
Apologies for posting on this thread. Need to do this exam and appreciate the help!
Thank you


Just cleared mine few weeks ago + also completed the ATPL flight test in the AirNZ sim (foreign licence conversion).

​​​​​​Happy to send you deets.

[ElZilcho]

Hallo,

So I'm flying the 320 overseas and AirNZ has asked me to complete their assessment.

Whats the scoop on hiring externals atm? Pointers on the recruitment process?

Thanks

The first externals have started this month and will continue next year with around 25-30 currently in the hold file.

For the interview process, brush up on your raw data hand flying skills & basic ATPL knowledge for a tech exam (Met, Law, Principles of flight etc).

The SIM will most likely be in the 787 or 777, not the Airbus.

[Skankhunt]

Be aware that the company have said that from approximately March next year the rppp appoint and second will be in effect. That is the 1:9 ratio has been exhausted. From then every external will have 4 rppp pilots appointed ahead of them on the jet list.

[Seosan]

Be aware that the company have said that from approximately March next year the rppp appoint and second will be in effect. That is the 1:9 ratio has been exhausted. From then every external will have 4 rppp pilots appointed ahead of them on the jet list.

I understand you can’t say with certainty without knowing how many externals get hired but in real terms what impact would this have on seniority? Are there any requirements to bid
for command outside of time on the seniority list (hours on type, etc)?

Roughly what’s the required hiring numbers and how much does the list move year on year? Just trying to figure out the impact on command time if you join at the bottom of this hiring wave.

[ElZilcho]

There's no time on Type requirements for a Command, and by the time anyone on the Jet Fleet has the Seniority they'll have more than enough experience.

The new Course plan (Jan - June '24) has 48 entry level positions on it, some if which could be filled by internal seat changes, but it's a good ballpark.
By the end of this year, ~80 Regional Pilots would have come across in 2023 allowing 8 externals, 6 have already started.
I can’t recall the numbers from last year, but as there was no external recruitment let’s call it another 6-8 without exceeding the ratio.

As Skankhnut mentioned, it's looking like March is when the RPP 90:10 Ratio will be broken due to experience shortage in the Regionals, which covers 14 of the above courses, so 34 remaining. But at what Ratio I'm not sure. If we end up with another "Link Ban", as is usually the case, 25 externals results in 100 reserved numbers. If we double the course plan and assume 100 new hires for 2024, things could get out of hand rather quickly.
Retirements are 20-30 most years, but more are staying past 65 post COVID.

[starmaid]

Thank ElZilcho

[InZed]

Thank ElZilcho

if we must… thank you elzilcho

[starmaid]

​Any updates about how many externals they be recruiting this year? Recieved an email about "limited board dates" availability in 2024 + nothing mentioned about the next stage of the interview process if any.

[ElZilcho]

​Any updates about how many externals they be recruiting this year? Recieved an email about "limited board dates" availability in 2024 + nothing mentioned about the next stage of the interview process if any.

By the end of 2023 very few externals had started leaving the hold file reasonably healthy, likely resulting in the comment about limited boards.

How many of those Pilots will still be available is yet to be seen, given the current demand globally.

Expect we’ll get some more clarity in the coming months, but the last figure I heard was around 50 external hires this year. Personally that sounds a bit low but it’ll be driven by how many Regional Pilots are able to be released.

[starmaid]

Thanks Elzilcho

[KiwiAvi8er]

By the end of 2023 very few externals had started leaving the hold file reasonably healthy, likely resulting in the comment about limited boards.

How many of those Pilots will still be available is yet to be seen, given the current demand globally.

Expect we’ll get some more clarity in the coming months, but the last figure I heard was around 50 external hires this year. Personally that sounds a bit low but it’ll be driven by how many Regional Pilots are able to be released.

Should the current GM be ‘replaced’, any guesses whether the current recruitment scheme might see the skip? Sounds like the Links are already very short on potential new Skippers and it’s only early days!!

[Massey058]

Should the current GM be ‘replaced’, any guesses whether the current recruitment scheme might see the skip? Sounds like the Links are already very short on potential new Skippers and it’s only early days!!

​​​​​​There are pros and cons to every system. The previous iterations of recruitment didn't necessarily work and this one may not entirely either. We are in a somewhat unique environment. How long will it last?

I don't see how throwing the current system out will make much difference other than creating slightly different effects.

I mean one solution might be massive pay rises and overseas recruitment into the Regional airline but I really can't see that happening.

[ruralaviator]

any word on progress with the low hour pilot programme? rough timelines anyone or still early days

[ElZilcho]

Should the current GM be ‘replaced’, any guesses whether the current recruitment scheme might see the skip? Sounds like the Links are already very short on potential new Skippers and it’s only early days!!

This year will be rather telling to the future of the RPPP as it’s about to be put to the test with external recruitment planned to ramp up. If our current GM hasn’t heeded the warnings and put a plan in place then history will repeat itself and things could get rather ugly.

The Airline is critically short on Pilots, masked only by reduced fleet numbers. A320 Captains were asked to hand back leave recently even though we’ve got 4 A/C grounded minus engines and flying a reduced schedule.

​​​​​​There are pros and cons to every system. The previous iterations of recruitment didn't necessarily work and this one may not entirely either. We are in a somewhat unique environment. How long will it last?

I don't see how throwing the current system out will make much difference other than creating slightly different effects.

I mean one solution might be massive pay rises and overseas recruitment into the Regional airline but I really can't see that happening.

No system is perfect agreed, but the problem with the current system is it’s not flexible. Tag & Release only benefits a single group while heavily punishing another to the point where they stop showing up right when we need them.

any word on progress with the low hour pilot programme? rough timelines anyone or still early days

Not officially no, it’s gone rather quiet, but I did hear they’re looking at overseas providers who have experience training Cadets.

[starmaid]

Anyone atteneded the AirNZ interview recently? Any pointers or feed thta you can share? Thanks heaps, SM

[wantobe]

Any truth to all the rumours about the 8 year ban being dropped?

[Ollie Onion]

Surely that 8 year van will be the first thing to go, they could do that tomorrow. When they are having to send people to OZ to try and find pilots something is horribly wrong. Between the 8 year van and the RPPP they have cornered themselves.

[Bmozzle]

I'd expect to see the 8-year restriction lowered at some point, but it won't be tomorrow. Some consultation is required first.

People who think the RPPP is going to disappear, are in fact, dreaming.

[dctPub]

Big prop captain exodus about to begin.

People were gonna leave either way, except now air nz can’t recruit enough externals either.

[Massey058]

Big prop captain exodus about to begin.

People were gonna leave either way, except now air nz can’t recruit enough externals either.
​​​​​​
​​​​​​All power to people and there's certainly a lot of options for people that can make them work but departures have been few and far between and there certainly isn't any more chatter than pre-RPPP or pre-COVID.

[AviatorPac]

Big prop captain exodus about to begin.

People were gonna leave either way, except now air nz can’t recruit enough externals either.

It's actually a real shame because the prop fleet is actually an awesome job. If they came to the table and paid significantly more people wouldn't be feeling the need to head abroad or be so pushed to take a base where they have no association just to get on the RPPP list. Adding to this is the growing discontent with blended pay and the fact that people who are joining are years away from being eligible for a command based on their hours (not a poor relection on them at all just fact).

[continue#1]

. Adding to this is the growing discontent with blended pay and the fact that people who are joining are years away from being eligible for a command based on their hours (not a poor relection on them at all just fact).

Can you clarify what you mean by this, and maybe give some examples?

I mean It does actually take a few years to get the experience and exposure for a command
flying around Enzed. 👍🏽

[here_we_go_again]

Adding to this is the growing discontent with blended pay and the fact that people who are joining are years away from being eligible for a command based on their hours (not a poor relection on them at all just fact).
I'm sure we are all very sorry that those joining with 500 hours will have to wait some years to meet the command requirements. Sarcasm aside, a dose of reality might not hurt. Let's go back a decade or two. You might join with 3000 hours and still have been 5 years in the right-hand seat.

The impatience of Gen Z has been observed across many industries!

[framer]

5 years? Try 12 as an S/O

[Ladloy]

I'm sure we are all very sorry that those joining with 500 hours will have to wait some years to meet the command requirements. Sarcasm aside, a dose of reality might not hurt. Let's go back a decade or two. You might join with 3000 hours and still have been 5 years in the right-hand seat.

The impatience of Gen Z has been observed across many industries!
The impatience comes down to money. Financially everyone is worse off than a decade or two ago.

[RexMorgan]

Echoing what was said earlier - domestic turboprop is a great job but it isn't reasonable to blame it just on impatience. If it paid a salary remotely approaching the rise in property price and inflation we'd all be happy to wait. Given the lengthening path via RPPP hard to have a lot of confidence in progression to jets.

AirNZ definitely has some work to do ironing things out

[KiwiAvi8er]

Echoing what was said earlier - domestic turboprop is a great job but it isn't reasonable to blame it just on impatience. If it paid a salary remotely approaching the rise in property price and inflation we'd all be happy to wait. Given the lengthening path via RPPP hard to have a lot of confidence in progression to jets.

AirNZ definitely has some work to do ironing things out

When does your CEA expire?

[Chickenburgah]

Can you forward that to Greg Foran on behalf of all of us affected? Thanks

[InZed]

5 years? Try 12 as an S/O

The most recent Airbus captains are to individuals with just over 8yrs of service and 787 F/O spots are just over 9yrs of service.

where did you get 12 years from?

[InZed]

When does your CEA expire?

depending on the contract but ALPA is 16 May 2024

[dctPub]

The most recent Airbus captains are to individuals with just over 8yrs of service and 787 F/O spots are just over 9yrs of service.

where did you get 12 years from?

"Back in muuuuh day"

[RHSandLovingIt]

It's actually a real shame because the prop fleet is actually an awesome job. If they came to the table and paid significantly more people wouldn't be feeling the need to head abroad or be so pushed to take a base where they have no association just to get on the RPPP list. Adding to this is the growing discontent with blended pay and the fact that people who are joining are years away from being eligible for a command based on their hours (not a poor relection on them at all just fact).

Can you clarify what you mean by this, and maybe give some examples?

I mean It does actually take a few years to get the experience and exposure for a command
flying around Enzed. 👍🏽
People taking bases where they have no association? I assume they're talking about just taking whatever command comes up (even if out of their preferred/current base) so they can start accruing their 12 months of command ASAP which means they are eligible to bid via RPPP.

Blended pay? "New" ATR pilots (join date on/after 3 OCT 2019) not getting paid as much as ATR pilots on the grandfathered pay scale. The difference is not insignificant. It was an effective pay rise for all Q300 pilots, so not as much chatter about it there. Ideally, the company would have just pulled all pilots up to the grandfathered scale when the TP CA was negotiated, but the company claimed they couldn't afford it. They kind of got a "free pass" on this issue in 2022, but it will be interesting to see how hard, if at all, the unions push for it next round (1 OCT 2025).

If you're talking about the people being years away from being eligible for a command... it's simple math. They've hired a lot of FOs in the 500-700hr TT region. They're getting like 300-400hrs of flying a year. If they're lucky! Some are getting less. Training is taking up a lot of the FO flying (both new FOs line training, and Training Captains in RHS during CMD training).

Given that SIC time is halved when counting for ATPL minimum requirements, (and command practice can now only be counted while PF), even getting to the ATPL minimums, let alone the company CMD minimums, is going to take a while for a lot of these new FOs.

[Lorsh]

Any idea how many pilots are approaching 65 in the next 5 years?
Also, how do you think Covid has affected career progression for new hires, do you think the ~ 10 years to 320 command/wide body FO will change?

[InZed]

Any idea how many pilots are approaching 65 in the next 5 years?
Also, how do you think Covid has affected career progression for new hires, do you think the ~ 10 years to 320 command/wide body FO will change?

avg. over next 10 years is 31 per yr hitting 65

[Lorsh]

avg. over next 10 years is 31 per yr hitting 65
Thanks!

[PapaVictorPV]

Just cleared mine few weeks ago + also completed the ATPL flight test in the AirNZ sim (foreign licence conversion).

​​​​​​Happy to send you deets.

Hi SM, can you share me the details for foreign license conversion? Thank you!