Not-so-woke Reds

[Thud105]

What with all the posts about Wigston's wokery, the pause in recruiting white guys and the farce of the Red Arrows I'm amazed no one's joined the dots and made the connection. Just as the BBC pointed out about the Lionesses, the Reds really should be called the Whites - distinct lack of diversity! No women, no people of colour, no LGBTQ+, no one with special needs - c'mon RAFAT you can, should and must do better.

[NutLoose]

Try looking at the back seaters and there are 3 young ladies, they have had female pilots in the past who left, also all of the blue team are not all white, you have to remember people volunteer to join them, it's not simply a selection from the RAF, cannot understand another thread on the subject either.



https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/

[Thud105]

NutLoose, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that perhaps humour isn't your strong suit?

[NutLoose]

Judging by my cap comp efforts, I tend to agree. :O

[Confusious]

Judging by my cap comp efforts, I tend to agree. :O
Some of the funniest posts come from Nutty the Nutty.

[Ohrly]

The last time the RAF had a pilot with no legs on active duty was 1946, pretty disgraceful when you think about it.

[Mortmeister]

Some of the funniest posts come from Nutty the Nutty.

I totally agree, I love Nutty’s work!

[ORAC]

The last time the RAF had a pilot with no legs on active duty was 1946, pretty disgraceful when you think about it.
Nonsense, I knew many who got legless on a daily basis, even more so on APC…

[langleybaston]

Regardless, can one be certain about the absence of the GBT persuasions?

Asking for a friend.

[Toadstool]

Regardless, can one be certain about the absence of the GBT persuasions?

Asking for a friend.

Is your friend a dinosaur? Asking on behalf of a friend who’s been in the military for over 35 years when that used to matter, but no longer does.

[langleybaston]

Is your friend a dinosaur? Asking on behalf of a friend who’s been in the military for over 35 years when that used to matter, but no longer does.

You miss my friend's point:

the thread opener made the statement:

distinct lack of diversity! No women, no people of colour, no LGBTQ+, no one with special needs

[Davef68]

No blind or visually impaired either - if you want representative diversity, surely they have to be given consideration too?

[Ohrly]

Is your friend a dinosaur? Asking on behalf of a friend who’s been in the military for over 35 years when that used to matter, but no longer does.

Perhaps his friend is looking for a date.

[MPN11]

No blind or visually impaired either - if you want representative diversity, surely they have to be given consideration too?
Perhaps a Black Labrador Guide Dog could be recruited, with an RAF-wide contest to choose its name?

[Herod]

Perhaps a Black Labrador Guide Dog could be recruited, with an RAF-wide contest to choose its name?

You may SNIGGER, but if it's a large dog that likes to bury bones, it could be a BIGGER DIGGER.

[212man]

No blind or visually impaired either - if you want representative diversity, surely they have to be given consideration too?
Reminds me of when I used to frequent the facilities of Flight Safety International (global simulator company) - I could never understand why the classroom signs and lift buttons were in braille too!

[albatross]

Perhaps a Black Labrador Guide Dog could be recruited, with an RAF-wide contest to choose its name?


Now that’s funny!

[NutLoose]

No blind or visually impaired either - if you want representative diversity, surely they have to be given consideration too?

I don't know, if things haven't changed over the intervening years, you often used to get the blind leading the blind...

I bet you didn't see that coming, I wonder if QR's etc are now available in multiple languages and large print as is most council bumpf these days

[Diff Tail Shim]

Nonsense, I knew many who got legless on a daily basis, even more so on APC…
The infamous ex RAFG Phantom Armourer in 1988 that got an article in the Star with the headline "I was signing 15 million pound fighters fit to fly, when I wasn't fit to stand!" The MoD reply was "That doesn't happen". Our view on it "My head still hurts from last nights excess!"

[Diff Tail Shim]

Regardless, can one be certain about the absence of the GBT persuasions?

Asking for a friend.
Not been an issue for almost 25 years. You can be whatever, but if it effects the service operation then that becomes an issue.

[Diff Tail Shim]

I don't know, if things haven't changed over the intervening years, you often used to get the blind leading the blind...

I bet you didn't see that coming, I wonder if QR's etc are now available in multiple languages and large print as is most council bumpf these days
As needs to be seeing 20% of the Army come from abroad as we cannot recruit white British people to get inducted into army life. Base plates matter.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Try looking at the back seaters and there are 3 young ladies, they have had female pilots in the past who left, also all of the blue team are not all white, you have to remember people volunteer to join them, it's not simply a selection from the RAF, cannot understand another thread on the subject either.



https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/
I know of only one person that ended up on the Reds as a first tourist engineer. He runs Jet Art Aviation now and the story is in Dave Gledhill's book "Ground Crew Boys"

[treadigraph]

You may SNIGGER, but if it's a large dog that likes to bury bones, it could be a BIGGER DIGGER.
In the remake it'll be a red setter named Ginger...

[Diff Tail Shim]

Perhaps a Black Labrador Guide Dog could be recruited, with an RAF-wide contest to choose its name?
More likely to be Barky McBarkyface

[vegassun]

How bout a quick contest to see which person could check the most boxes?

I'll start:

A black/Asian mix female that identifies as a man, who is legally blind, confined to a wheelchair by spinal injury, has Tourettes Syndrome, and has severe PTSD from an undisclosed traumatic event.

[common toad]

What a waste of money and resources. Time the REDS were disbanded.

[Confusious]

What a waste of money and resources. Time the REDS were disbanded.
Nooooo!

[SpannerInTheWerks]

No women, no people of colour, no LGBTQ+, no one with special needs

If the alleged reports of a 'toxic culture" of sexual harassment, assault, misogyny and bullying are correct, then is it any wonder ... ?!?!?!

50 plus years of respect for the Red Arrows and all they stand for is suddenly starting to evaporate - I hope the reports are proved to be unsubstantiated, but in so many cases there is no smoke without fire.

I wonder how some of the heroes of the past would have withstood scrutiny in this day and age - some of the reports, and records, of the RAF 'greats' leave a lot to be desired.

On the other side of the coin, you have to have that arrogance and mentality to be a leader and a fighter in the first place, so unfortunately it is hard to have one without the other.

A very sad day to be even discussing this.

[NutLoose]

Agreed, they need someone to use up all those steam driven Hawk parts they now have since they chopped the fleet.

The trouble is Spanner the world has gone anal and the fun police look at destroying anyones legal enjoyment, even if they have done nothing wrong, look at the Finlands PM who was dragged over the coals for simply enjoying a party with friends in her downtime, heck, she even was more or less forced to take a bloody drugs test to get them off her back, totally and utterly wrong. If they have not done anything wrong leave them alone, if they have it’s a different matter.

I was watching the news this morning and the reporter was commenting that the Ukraine war, one of the most important and tragic world events of this century has all but dropped off the news channels and press, but Boris’s party was dragged out in the press and news channels for over a year and it probably still hasn’t finished.


.

[beaconfell]

I know of only one person that ended up on the Reds as a first tourist engineer. He runs Jet Art Aviation now and the story is in Dave Gledhill's book "Ground Crew Boys"

Brings back a few memories. I worked with CW very briefly on 11 Sqn many years ago. I remember you had to put a gen app in for RAFAT. The overall mood seemed to be very negative about it and a sort of 'what's the point?'. I remember CW was very positive about it and spoke very highly of his time there. Glad I listened to him as I ended up posted there very shortly after. I accidentally stumbled across Jet Art Aviation some years later and he seems to have done really well for himself. I didn't know him particularly well, and I didn't fit in too well on the squadron, but I remember him being a proper decent guy.

Anyway... thanks for the mention of the book. Looks good and I look forward to reading it.

[kintyred]

The last time the RAF had a pilot with no legs on active duty was 1946, pretty disgraceful when you think about it.

Maybe, but 40 years later the mighty Wokka was occasionally piloted by a pair with only one good leg between them

[NutLoose]

The last time the RAF had a pilot with no legs on active duty was 1946, pretty disgraceful when you think about it.

Which of course helped him in combat

[Krystal n chips]

I know of only one person that ended up on the Reds as a first tourist engineer. He runs Jet Art Aviation now and the story is in Dave Gledhill's book "Ground Crew Boys"

One of my entry was posted directly to the Reds...he applied on the "dream sheet " for Little Riss so was surprised to say the least...

In far more recent times, several AMM's applied straight out of training...and got their choice.

[NutLoose]

I applied for Odiham from training and got it, I even got posted back to Brize off a course and back onto the same shift, which was unheard of due to the Boss requesting me and somehow wangling it, he even got my original posting changed…… so I must have been doing something right.

[common toad]

NutLoose. GA good fit or the ‘10s wing tanks?

[MPN11]

I...
On the other side of the coin, you have to have that arrogance and mentality to be a leader and a fighter in the first place, so unfortunately it is hard to have one without the other.

My view too. Any 'elite' outfit tends to that extreme end of the graph.

[langleybaston]

How bout a quick contest to see which person could check the most boxes?

I'll start:

A black/Asian mix female that identifies as a man, who is legally blind, confined to a wheelchair by spinal injury, has Tourettes Syndrome, and has severe PTSD from an undisclosed traumatic event.

You could add one-legged Nun I suppose, dwarf and deaf.

All in very bad taste, banter is off limits.

I reserve my right to offend in general terms.

[langleybaston]

My view too. Any 'elite' outfit tends to that extreme end of the graph.

Cheshire VC does not fit.

[NutLoose]

NutLoose. GA good fit or the ‘10s wing tanks?

Was originally posted away then boss wangled me back to Brize but was then slated to go to base hangar, but they then went to eng wing said they hadn’t gone to all this trouble to get that to happen and got me returned to LSS..

1O wing tanks….. shiver.

[MPN11]

Cheshire VC does not fit.There are always ouliers, Sir!

[Diff Tail Shim]

One of my entry was posted directly to the Reds...he applied on the "dream sheet " for Little Riss so was surprised to say the least...

In far more recent times, several AMM's applied straight out of training...and got their choice.
Possibly as there was a lack of volunteers. Reds is a constrained tour with the positives and the big negatives of block leave and restrictions when you can take leave, plus a lot of working weekends.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Brings back a few memories. I worked with CW very briefly on 11 Sqn many years ago. I remember you had to put a gen app in for RAFAT. The overall mood seemed to be very negative about it and a sort of 'what's the point?'. I remember CW was very positive about it and spoke very highly of his time there. Glad I listened to him as I ended up posted there very shortly after. I accidentally stumbled across Jet Art Aviation some years later and he seems to have done really well for himself. I didn't know him particularly well, and I didn't fit in too well on the squadron, but I remember him being a proper decent guy.

Anyway... thanks for the mention of the book. Looks good and I look forward to reading it.

No problems. I know Mr W from his Business now. He has helped me out with projects. As for the book, if you have seen the google preview, you would have seen some words penned off an old ACER computer.

[NutLoose]

Possibly as there was a lack of volunteers. Reds is a constrained tour with the positives and the big negatives of block leave and restrictions when you can take leave, plus a lot of working weekends.

Positives I suppose would be no detachments such as Afghanistan when the war was on and a preplanned year where you would know exactly what you would be doing.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Positives I suppose would be no detachments such as Afghanistan when the war was on and a preplanned year where you would know exactly what you would be doing.
Never appealed to most. Better drinking culture on a Sqn without the publicity? Never was on my agenda, shame as I would have loved it.

[oldmansquipper]

I will simply say that, back in the Cold War, if you did not pop into the sgts mess bar at lunchtime for a swift half or a small wobbly, your annual assessment (AKA ‘Appraisals’ in todays yoof speak) would probably say “Sgt …….. does not support the mess…” and his numbers would be rounded down……..allegedly.

[Toadstool]

I will simply say that, back in the Cold War, if you did not pop into the sgts mess bar at lunchtime for a swift half or a small wobbly, your annual assessment (AKA ‘Appraisals’ in todays yoof speak) would probably say “Sgt …….. does not support the mess…” and his numbers would be rounded down……..allegedly.

All I would say on that was, how times have changed. I know of no one who drinks at lunchtime, and if there would be anyone who does and returns to work, they’d be sent home, at best.

[Toadstool]

Positives I suppose would be no detachments such as Afghanistan when the war was on and a preplanned year where you would know exactly what you would be doing.

Nutty, you’d be surprised how appealing OO deployments were/are. For all the talk of how things used to be, this generation or the half generation ago are or were involved in proper kinetic operations. We are and have been involved in combat. Oh for the good old days of the Cold War and getting pissed on Wobbly.

The irony is that, for all the talk of this generation being woke, we are, and have, and are still on Ops. Not training for Ops.
The Reds offers a chance for front line FJ pilots to have a rest and do something different. For all that I take the piss out of them for being (currently) not on the front line, they all have and deserve a respite tour on RAFAT and do a fantastic job.

[finestkind]

The last time the RAF had a pilot with no legs on active duty was 1946, pretty disgraceful when you think about it.

Perhaps I am wrong but before I put both feet in my mouth to whom would you be referring too?

[NutLoose]

I’ll give you a clue, he was a not a nice person, Bader.


.

​​​​​​…

[NutLoose]

I will simply say that, back in the Cold War, if you did not pop into the sgts mess bar at lunchtime for a swift half or a small wobbly, your annual assessment (AKA ‘Appraisals’ in todays yoof speak) would probably say “Sgt …….. does not support the mess…” and his numbers would be rounded down……..allegedly.

Or having a block party and drinking on the night off during an exercise, then bimbling back into work in the early hours and later being interviewed by the SIB because someone burnt the police block down next to ours.. who knew, we missed all the fun.. SIB could not believe we worked late, drank to the early hours, then went back to work lol.

[finestkind]

I’ll give you a clue, he was a not a nice person, Bader.​​​​​​…


Yes have heard that (but a lot of great leaders are not considered nice people) but Colin "Hoppy" Hodgkinson also served. Lost both legs early 1939. Worked his way back in, in 1942. Discharged 1946 Joined Royal Auxiliary Air Force 1949 to early 50's flying Vampires if memory serves.

[Krystal n chips]

Possibly as there was a lack of volunteers. Reds is a constrained tour with the positives and the big negatives of block leave and restrictions when you can take leave, plus a lot of working weekends.

Sorry, that wasn't the case at the time. The Reds have always been an attractive tour for many engineers and apprenti were just sent to wherever, irrespective of their wishes although it would be fair to say some did get them fulfilled .

As for the AMM's, they would only be there for, in theory, 12-18months, before doing the Tech's course. However, most got their first choice for one very good and specific reason. With the drawdown in fleets / locations, it benefitted both the RAF and the individual to be based at, and working on, a location and type that appealed to them. A certain "well known rotary station " did, in fact, demonstrate how effective this policy was with regard to how they treated AMM's as they wanted, and got, them back after they became Techs.

The (in)famous lunch time drinking ?....long gone, now replaced with?..... visits to the gym !

It will be interesting to see how these revelations develop and what, if any, effect they have on the public given most simply want to watch, as certain MSM thoughtfully explain to their readers, their, ahem, "aerial stunts " .

Internally is probably an entirely different matter and, whilst these revelations have reached the public domain, many of the issues bear a horrible and uncanny similarity to events at Lossie where it took, as I understand it, an SAC to have the moral courage to stand up in public and address a VSO as to the then flight safety culture...which lead to a significant investigation and some individuals " no longer employed " .

[Wensleydale]

I will simply say that, back in the Cold War, if you did not pop into the sgts mess bar at lunchtime for a swift half or a small wobbly, your annual assessment (AKA ‘Appraisals’ in todays yoof speak) would probably say “Sgt …….. does not support the mess…” and his numbers would be rounded down……..allegedly.

I received a negative comment in my ACR - I commuted on a motorcycle and was written up for not attending happy hour in the Mess.....strangely, a colleague who also commuted by motorcycle and failed a breathalyser one Friday evening, was also written up negatively.

[ShyTorque]

I was watching the news this morning and the reporter was commenting that the Ukraine war, one of the most important and tragic world events of this century has all but dropped off the news channels and press, but Boris’s party was dragged out in the press and news channels for over a year and it probably still hasn’t finished.

Those controlling the news channels should think how things might be if someone like Putin was in charge in U.K.

[pmills575]

I see that the Daily Mail is reporting that the Reds could be canned.
Seems like a good move to me, they could be replaced by The Rainbows.

[a_ross84]

What with all the posts about Wigston's wokery, the pause in recruiting white guys and the farce of the Red Arrows I'm amazed no one's joined the dots and made the connection. Just as the BBC pointed out about the Lionesses, the Reds really should be called the Whites - distinct lack of diversity! No women, no people of colour, no LGBTQ+, no one with special needs - c'mon RAFAT you can, should and must do better.


Jesus christ.... Why are you people always doing this?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Nutty, you’d be surprised how appealing OO deployments were/are. For all the talk of how things used to be, this generation or the half generation ago are or were involved in proper kinetic operations. We are and have been involved in combat. Oh for the good old days of the Cold War and getting pissed on Wobbly.

The irony is that, for all the talk of this generation being woke, we are, and have, and are still on Ops. Not training for Ops.
The Reds offers a chance for front line FJ pilots to have a rest and do something different. For all that I take the piss out of them for being (currently) not on the front line, they all have and deserve a respite tour on RAFAT and do a fantastic job.
Indeed, having done the cold war and hot war stuff (both my op tours were somewhere that drinking was forbidden or opportunity was a two can rule for one night in the entire 4 months) I agree with your comments entirely.

[Cornish Jack]

On the other side of the coin, you have to have that arrogance and mentality to be a leader and a fighter in the first place, so unfortunately it is hard to have one without the other.
Personal experience says otherwise - historically see Gibson and Cheshire.

[NutLoose]

Indeed, having done the cold war and hot war stuff (both my op tours were somewhere that drinking was forbidden or opportunity was a two can rule for one night in the entire 4 months) I agree with your comments entirely.

I was once on an exercise where we were allowed 2 cans of beer per day, we all saved them up and had an excellent party... They didn't see the funny side of that little episode.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Sorry, that wasn't the case at the time. The Reds have always been an attractive tour for many engineers and apprenti were just sent to wherever, irrespective of their wishes although it would be fair to say some did get them fulfilled .

As for the AMM's, they would only be there for, in theory, 12-18months, before doing the Tech's course. However, most got their first choice for one very good and specific reason. With the drawdown in fleets / locations, it benefitted both the RAF and the individual to be based at, and working on, a location and type that appealed to them. A certain "well known rotary station " did, in fact, demonstrate how effective this policy was with regard to how they treated AMM's as they wanted, and got, them back after they became Techs.

The (in)famous lunch time drinking ?....long gone, now replaced with?..... visits to the gym !

It will be interesting to see how these revelations develop and what, if any, effect they have on the public given most simply want to watch, as certain MSM thoughtfully explain to their readers, their, ahem, "aerial stunts " .

Internally is probably an entirely different matter and, whilst these revelations have reached the public domain, many of the issues bear a horrible and uncanny similarity to events at Lossie where it took, as I understand it, an SAC to have the moral courage to stand up in public and address a VSO as to the then flight safety culture...which lead to a significant investigation and some individuals " no longer employed " .

A few bad apples always spoil the barrel. Same everywhere wherever civvy or military as humans involved. Bad bosses or bad apples in the ranks that bring the level down. 24 hour postings are very difficult to disappear when the effects are obviously public. Only knew a couple of people in my time that volunteered and got into the reds. Then again, most engineers I knew at the places they where at were happy with their lot. I cannot say if that is the case now as I have not been in for 14 years. I do have a mate that has actually been selected to fly for them, was talking to him a couple of nights ago. He is over the moon with the opportunity to fly as a paid display pilot. I wish him the best for a highly successful tour.

[Diff Tail Shim]

I was once on an exercise where we were allowed 2 cans of beer per day, we all saved them up and had an excellent party... They didn't see the funny side of that little episode.
We had an armourer Sergeant that decided to kill his smuggled vodka the same night and was found wandering naked and abusive around Trenchard. Two can Saturdays were banned from then on and the place was dry. The person that applied the ban was CO 903 EAW. His name was Mike Wigston.

[Timelord]

On the other side of the coin, you have to have that arrogance and mentality to be a leader and a fighter in the first place, so unfortunately it is hard to have one without the other.
Personal experience says otherwise - historically see Gibson and Cheshire.

Both “Bomber” leaders. “Fighter” leaders tend to be different characters. See references to Robin Olds elsewhere on here.

[Biggus]

Is there a case for grounding the Reds for flight safety reasons until the inquiry is complete and remedial action taken?

Such an action would show leadership, intent, that the matter is being taken sufficiently seriously, being given due attention and allow it to be resolved (hopefully) more quickly.

As for flight safety, I'm sure lots of people will say these are all highly trained "professionals" who can get on with the job despite the situation. But can anyone truly say that with everything that is going on, and there's talk that we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, so we can only guess the full extent, that the situation isn't providing a serious distraction, at least for some (and it's not all about the pilots), from the task at hand?

What was the name of that Flight Safety film from the 70s/80s with the (fictional I should add) experienced Jaguar flight commander who died ....ah yes, "Distractions"!! (still available on youtube).

Or will the RAF just stick it's fingers in it's ears and say "nothing to see here, move on, we're taking this seriously, an investigation is in progress, lessons will be identified", all the usual mouth music.

Is PR/image more important to the RAF than flight safety?

[NutLoose]

They should go undercover and paint the jets black ;)

[charliegolf]

Internally is probably an entirely different matter and, whilst these revelations have reached the public domain, many of the issues bear a horrible and uncanny similarity to events at Lossie where it took, as I understand it, an SAC to have the moral courage to stand up in public and address a VSO as to the then flight safety culture...which lead to a significant investigation and some individuals " no longer employed "

Presumably starting with the SAC?

CG

PS, what's an AMM?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Presumably starting with the SAC?

CG

PS, what's an AMM?
Aircraft Maintenance Manual. IPC is Illustrated Parts Catalogue, SRM is Structure Repair Manual and all aircraft engineering APs had similar descriptions in their titles as well as the AP101B aircraft type - 1 (AMM), 2 (mods), 3(IPC) etc..

[Diff Tail Shim]

Is there a case for grounding the Reds for flight safety reasons until the inquiry is complete and remedial action taken?

Such an action would show leadership, intent, that the matter is being taken sufficiently seriously, being given due attention and allow it to be resolved (hopefully) more quickly.

As for flight safety, I'm sure lots of people will say these are all highly trained "professionals" who can get on with the job despite the situation. But can anyone truly say that with everything that is going on, and there's talk that we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, so we can only guess the full extent, that the situation isn't providing a serious distraction, at least for some (and it's not all about the pilots), from the task at hand?

What was the name of that Flight Safety film from the 70s/80s with the (fictional I should add) experienced Jaguar flight commander who died ....ah yes, "Distractions"!! (still available on youtube).

Or will the RAF just stick it's fingers in it's ears and say "nothing to see here, move on, we're taking this seriously, an investigation is in progress, lessons will be identified", all the usual mouth music.

Is PR/image more important to the RAF than flight safety?
Distractions. I suspect there was a drinking culture with all the extras in the film (whom were all serving 54(F) ground crew.)

[downsizer]

Aircraft Maintenance Manual. IPC is Illustrated Parts Catalogue, SRM is Structure Repair Manual and all aircraft engineering APs had similar descriptions in their titles as well as the AP101B aircraft type - 1 (AMM), 2 (mods), 3(IPC) etc..

No, he was referring to AMM in the context of Aircraft Maintenance Mechanic. Otherwise known as a "liney".

[Krystal n chips]

Presumably starting with the SAC?

CG

PS, what's an AMM?

Actually, no, quite the reverse in fact as I understand it. Those whose "services were no longer required " were much, much higher up the food chain and their departure had serious ramifications for a relaxed retirement

An AMM is the current equivalent of what you would have known / encountered as FLM's albeit there are differences. Engineers all start as AMM's, then, in theory, do 12-18months being liney's before returning to do their Tech's course to become SAC Techs, as was. before the latest name change. They were streamed however between Mech / Avionic for future employment, but if they were Avionic, they could be back on a Techs course within 9 months due to the shortage.

[charliegolf]

Actually, no, quite the reverse in fact as I understand it. Those whose "services were no longer required " were much, much higher up the food chain and their departure had serious ramifications for a relaxed retirement

An AMM is the current equivalent of what you would have known / encountered as FLM's albeit there are differences.

I was getting there on a hunch... Cheers.

CG

[biddedout]

Is there a case for grounding the Reds for flight safety reasons until the inquiry is complete and remedial action taken?

Is PR/image more important to the RAF than flight safety?

I think there is a good case for grounding them for the rest of the season and starting afresh. In this day and age there shouldn't be any hint of drinking culture around the display circuit. Some friends had an unpleasant experience of another display crew (ground-crew) in a resort hotel. Rude, loud, dishevelled and worse for wear and yet still wearing enough bits of uniform identifying them as RAF people supposedly on the front-line of PR. Time for a big reset.
ATCO's, and Airline crews are under constant threat of alcohol/drugs tests, so why can't the RAF get a grip of this?

[BrianJay]

Is this the RAF's 'Tailhook'?

[Dunhovrin]

Nutty, you’d be surprised how appealing OO deployments were/are. For all the talk of how things used to be, this generation or the half generation ago are or were involved in proper kinetic operations. We are and have been involved in combat. Oh for the good old days of the Cold War and getting pissed on Wobbly.

The irony is that, for all the talk of this generation being woke, we are, and have, and are still on Ops. Not training for Ops.
The Reds offers a chance for front line FJ pilots to have a rest and do something different. For all that I take the piss out of them for being (currently) not on the front line, they all have and deserve a respite tour on RAFAT and do a fantastic job.

Well said, mate. “The yoof of today, they don’t know they’re born. Always going abroad, losing limbs, or coming back in boxes”.

it’s not exactly a forgotten war but it does piss me off when fellow old goats go on about “young people today” being slackers. I know if I were 30 years younger… I’d have **** myself at the first mortar alarm.

[XV490]

Reds' airshow SIM ablaze (https://www.clactonandfrintongazette.co.uk/news/20759528.evacuation-red-arrows-flight-simulator-catches-fire-clacton-airshow/) at Clacton. Oh what a season...😟

[NutLoose]

Smoke on...and go..

Glad everyones ok.

[XV490]

Smoke on...and go..

Glad everyones ok.

Yeah. Seats worked as advertised.

[Diff Tail Shim]

No, he was referring to AMM in the context of Aircraft Maintenance Mechanic. Otherwise known as a "liney".
Of course. Silly me. Of course they have gone the same way as the FLM. I never saw them as the type I worked on didn't get them due to the retirement of it. It is direct entrant Techs now for all aircraft trades is it not?

[Diff Tail Shim]

I think there is a good case for grounding them for the rest of the season and starting afresh. In this day and age there shouldn't be any hint of drinking culture around the display circuit. Some friends had an unpleasant experience of another display crew (ground-crew) in a resort hotel. Rude, loud, dishevelled and worse for wear and yet still wearing enough bits of uniform identifying them as RAF people supposedly on the front-line of PR. Time for a big reset.
ATCO's, and Airline crews are under constant threat of alcohol/drugs tests, so why can't the RAF get a grip of this?
Alas, the other display team GC are standard people one finds everywhere in a certain organisation.

[Krystal n chips]

Of course. Silly me. Of course they have gone the same way as the FLM. I never saw them as the type I worked on didn't get them due to the retirement of it. It is direct entrant Techs now for all aircraft trades is it not?

It is, but that's a recent development although for Armourers this was always the case. With their date of joining shown, several of the Circus back seaters would have come via the AMM > Tech route.

That said, the change was overdue. First, the AMM course was basic, very basic, and did them a disservice in many respects . However, the "well known rotary station " decided, that, whilst initially on their tour they would be liney's, and go on a deployment to Afghan, they also tried to give them a jolly as a further inducement, but, the neat bit was to get them involved in Depth, ok 2nd Line for those of a certain vintage, and as this is what they would eventually be doing, lo and behold....it worked !..so back they came...same for the trucking world more or less. This wasn't some hitherto unknown altruism from the RAF grown ups, more a realisation both parties benefitted.

The change to direct entrant made sense therefore, plus, it saved a few quid as well.

Back to how the PR machine is going to handle the now very public issues with the Reds

[Diff Tail Shim]

It is, but that's a recent development although for Armourers this was always the case. With their date of joining shown, several of the Circus back seaters would have come via the AMM > Tech route.

That said, the change was overdue. First, the AMM course was basic, very basic, and did them a disservice in many respects . However, the "well known rotary station " decided, that, whilst initially on their tour they would be liney's, and go on a deployment to Afghan, they also tried to give them a jolly as a further inducement, but, the neat bit was to get them involved in Depth, ok 2nd Line for those of a certain vintage, and as this is what they would eventually be doing, lo and behold....it worked !..so back they came...same for the trucking world more or less. This wasn't some hitherto unknown altruism from the RAF grown ups, more a realisation both parties benefitted.

The change to direct entrant made sense therefore, plus, it saved a few quid as well.

Back to how the PR machine is going to handle the now very public issues with the Reds
Having nothing to do with the RAF in any engineering function whatsoever since 2008, I take it you have been involved with the contracted maintenance that manifested from the early 2000s (Did the lean project in a certain bay when HMF started to transform into the BAES empire). Moving aeroplanes about in bits is something civvy street never took on for some reason. I wonder why, but not the place of this thread. The PR own goals will disappear when the press find another scandal more interesting to their backstabbing. Joe will forget it quickly.

[Tankertrashnav]

On the other side of the coin, you have to have that arrogance and mentality to be a leader and a fighter in the first place, so unfortunately it is hard to have one without the other.

That is an oft quoted statement, but I'm not so sure I agree. Take the case of two commanding officers of 617 Squadron , Guy Gibson and Leonard Cheshire. Both were effective leaders and courageus pilots , but whereas Gibson was by all accounts an arrogant sod, particularly in his dealings with other ranks, Cheshire was renowned as being popular among all ranks,and was a sensitive and thoughtful man, as witness his post war work with the disabled which led to the setting up the Cheshire Homes. Definitely the exception that proved the rule.

[oldmansquipper]

All I would say on that was, how times have changed. I know of no one who drinks at lunchtime, and if there would be anyone who does and returns to work, they’d be sent home, at best.

I think that’s my point?

It seems to be indicative of the outdated “We are the world famous Reds, and we do things differently” ethos that has emerged. If one thinks that is not the case, then one needs only to read David Hills two books on their recent tragic incidents.

uncomfortable for sure.

[oldmansquipper]

Is there a case for grounding the Reds for flight safety reasons until the inquiry is complete and remedial action taken?

Such an action would show leadership, intent, that the matter is being taken sufficiently seriously, being given due attention and allow it to be resolved (hopefully) more quickly.

As for flight safety, I'm sure lots of people will say these are all highly trained "professionals" who can get on with the job despite the situation. But can anyone truly say that with everything that is going on, and there's talk that we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, so we can only guess the full extent, that the situation isn't providing a serious distraction, at least for some (and it's not all about the pilots), from the task at hand?

What was the name of that Flight Safety film from the 70s/80s with the (fictional I should add) experienced Jaguar flight commander who died ....ah yes, "Distractions"!! (still available on youtube).

Or will the RAF just stick it's fingers in it's ears and say "nothing to see here, move on, we're taking this seriously, an investigation is in progress, lessons will be identified", all the usual mouth music.

Is PR/image more important to the RAF than flight safety?

I think we know the answer, Biggus. (and no VSOs will be harmed in the playing of that music)

I remember ‘distractions’ - quite punchy at the time of release.

[Top West 50]

That is an oft quoted statement, but I'm not so sure I agree. Take the case of two commanding officers of 617 Squadron , Guy Gibson and Leonard Cheshire. Both were effective leaders and courageus pilots , but whereas Gibson was by all accounts an arrogant sod, particularly in his dealings with other ranks, Cheshire was renowned as being popular among all ranks,and was a sensitive and thoughtful man, as witness his post war work with the disabled which led to the setting up the Cheshire Homes. Definitely the exception that proved the rule.
I had the immense privilege of hearing Cheshire lecture and answer questions on war and morality whilst at Bracknell ASC. He spoke quietly, convincingly, and with almost mesmeric assurance. I don't think he would have had any difficulty leading anyone anywhere.

[langleybaston]

I had the immense privilege of hearing Cheshire lecture and answer questions on war and morality whilst at Bracknell ASC. He spoke quietly, convincingly, and with almost mesmeric assurance. I don't think he would have had any difficulty leading anyone anywhere.

The Gibson/ Cheshire contrast and debate is fascinating.

In my opinion [having read many relevant books] we have a case of "cometh the hour, cometh the man"
Cheshire did not have the ego and drive and arrogance to mount the Dams raids in an absurdly short time-frame, and Gibson could not have provided the continuous and considered leadership in the evolving role of 617.

RIP both, very different, absurdly brave, and deservedly national heroes.

[Diff Tail Shim]

The Gibson/ Cheshire contrast and debate is fascinating.

In my opinion [having read many relevant books] we have a case of "cometh the hour, cometh the man"
Cheshire did not have the ego and drive and arrogance to mount the Dams raids in an absurdly short time-frame, and Gibson could not have provided the continuous and considered leadership in the evolving role of 617.

RIP both, very different, absurdly brave, and deservedly national heroes.
Actually I disagree on the dams. Cheshire was continuously for almost a year changing and defining the operational characteristics of precision bombing. Maybe with Cheshire in charge, the first two bombs on the Mohne and Eder would have destroyed them. Cheshire was a better thinker against problems. He never put his ego in the way. I once had a discussion with a squadron commander that everyone around me thought was a Gibson. Actually he was more Cheshire as he was in tune with the end result with less collateral. Said to him that he was more Cheshire. The team worked better. As for hero worship, that applies to anyone flying in Bomber Command to the lowest time served Sergeant. To those that served in blue.

[Barksdale Boy]

That is an oft quoted statement, but I'm not so sure I agree. Take the case of two commanding officers of 617 Squadron , Guy Gibson and Leonard Cheshire. Both were effective leaders and courageus pilots , but whereas Gibson was by all accounts an arrogant sod, particularly in his dealings with other ranks, Cheshire was renowned as being popular among all ranks,and was a sensitive and thoughtful man, as witness his post war work with the disabled which led to the setting up the Cheshire Homes. Definitely the exception that proved the rule.
TTN
Good to see you back - it's been a while.
When I attended 617 reunions in the late 70s/early 80s, many of the old timers said that their best wartime CO had been Willie Tait.

[tucumseh]

We’ve all read the allegations. If true, disgusting. But hardly a revelation.

We all know what is described, especially bullying and harassment, is common place across all of MoD. In fact, Defence Ministers and Cabinet Secretaries have in the recent past ruled this does not constitute ‘wrongdoing’. That is, it has been formally reported before (many times) and those responsible allowed to judge their own case and write Ministerial briefs and responses. Not only that, MoD has been quite happy to provide these papers under FOI, so confident is it in top level support. Or is that ‘unwarrantable arrogance’, to coin a Defence Committee phrase from 4 March 1998 when discussing infinitely worse breaches by Air Marshals? (One of whom re-entered the lists last week in a letter to the Telegraph).

And that is the elephant in the room. Very senior officers and officials have, for many years, actively condoned such behaviour. They’ve practiced it. It is ingrained, part of their culture. Not just at the Red Arrows. Yes, they may have their own culprits, but the current reports in the media are serving to divert attention from far greater, and far higher, failures. The media knows this, but consistently avoids the elephant. Why are the honest journalists, and there are many, constantly told by editors to pull stories embarrassing to senior staff? Who’s pulling their chain?

For the answer, we can stay on the Red Arrows theme. When MoD lied to the courts in 2014 (Inquest) and 2018 (trial) over the Sean Cunningham affair, MoD’s PR people threatened journalists, accosting them in the street outside the courthouse demanding they hand over notes of interviews with witnesses who were prepared to tell the truth. To their great credit they refused, but were swiftly stood down by their editors. Not one of these verifiable witness statements has ever been published, so if you do a search the only thing you’ll find is verifiable lies. However, one of those young journalists, now with Sky News, was very unhappy, and I suspect her leading report last week is, in part, related to her treatment in 2018. She will not have forgotten.

My point is this is the tip of a very large iceberg, and a local inquiry into one squadron is not going to expose the root problems.

[Lima Juliet]

I think the military’s and wider general public’a distrust of media journalists is no secret. We’ve seen phone hacking, deliberate deception through editing that removes context, inaccuracies, bribery, cover ups and down-right lies. Martin Bashir is a well known one to be found wanting, there have been many more caught out, then there are many that just ‘fill in the gaps’ with what they want too. My own dealings with media and TV companies making documentaries about military life has only cemented my own distrust for the main stream media and anything they choose to spout. That said, if you can get to the truth amongst the waffle then you can find the interesting stuff, and there are certainly nuggets of truth in amongst the current furore about the RAF for sure. There is also often an ulterior motive behind those that leak too, or go on crusades in the name of ‘truth’ but is often driven by embitterment, which normally surfaces in the future.

Think drop the dead donkey and somewhere in there you’ll find the truth and remember there’s nowt queer as folk….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hL_DyvEV84

[typerated]

or go on crusades in the name of ‘truth’ but is often driven by embitterment, which normally surfaces in the future.



Ex CFS instructor with a YouTube channel?

[tucumseh]

LJ

Indeed. All true.

I must be careful not to conflate the two issues here - the Gp Capt’s reasons for resigning and the Red Arrows’ story, but there is a lot of overlap.

The Gp Capt’s actions could be seen as a form of whistleblowing - a word I don’t like as it is given negative connotations by MoD and media, who both ignore that very often it is actually someone meeting a legal obligation. (Especially on matters of financial probity, where one does not work to one’s line manager, but directly to PUS).

In general, one can ‘blow the whistle’ only after following the rules by escalating the issue/complaint one step at a time up the management ladder. The rules are ambiguous, the general interpretation being you can blow only after being rejected by PUS (for civil servants), meaning sometimes the whistle can and must be blown very quickly. This principle has been tested and proven a number of times. In practice, however, one can go to the Cabinet Secretary and, to be fair to one of them in the 90s, I recall a former RAF C/T being awarded a 75% pension for life following an accusation of bullying against an AVM. A costly lesson learned for MoD, and since then such actions have always been vigorously defended as acceptable; as mentioned above. Some would say it would be better to address the root problem.

Someone has blown a whistle over the Red Arrows. I wonder if they went through this due process? Or were they frustrated at not getting anywhere? In a process that can take years, a lot of bad things can happen in the meantime. Did (e.g.) CAS ignore him/her, or was it much lower? The investigation must ask that question.

I wonder what CAS thinks of this Reds debacle? One of his predecessors was interviewed in 2011 saying "The Red Arrows will come through this and I think they will continue to use well proven methods of selection and well proven methods of training." That didn’t work out, did it? He’s the BBC’s go-to, but is conspicuous by his absence this time.

As for the Dead Donkey, I was too busy watching a certain Ms Doyle. Am I allowed to say that?

[oldmansquipper]

Is this the RAFs' 'Tail Hook'?


Possibly……for those (and there will be some) who don’t know what Tail Hook was….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal

[vegassun]

Read the book Fighter Pilot, by Christina Olds & Ed Rasimus. It's the story of Robin Olds written by his daughter. The guy pulled off some really crazy sh*t in his career and lived to tell about it!

Example: After becoming an Ace in WWII in P-38s and Mustangs he comes back to the states and into a squadron that is getting P-80s. He is told to hit the back of the line/many dudes in front of him to get checked out on the new jet powered aircraft. He says, "OK, no problem." Few days later he walks out to the flight line (when it's quiet) in borrowed flight suit/helmet and sees a crew chief working on one. He says, "Hi there, they told me to come ask you if you would mind going over the start procedure with me?" Shortly thereafter he is taxiing out, takes off, climbs out, does the usual stalls/spins etc, then comes back and lands like it's no big deal! That was his checkout on a jet aircraft.

[red cuillen]

Looks like they have cancelled their weekend flying from Egte , due to engineering issues...

[Exrigger]

Be interesting to know if any Defence Air Safety Occurrence Reports (DASORs) have been submitted and what will be done to close them down. Many years ago I saw two for issues of a similar nature, unfortunately I cannot remember how they were closed out and what, if anything, was changed to resolve the issue.

[Haraka]

O.K it was many yesrs ago but I did host two two Farnboroughs with the Arrows, followed by another couple some years later, I think there is a bit of hyperbole about all this.

[oldmansquipper]

Looks like they have cancelled their weekend flying from Egte , due to engineering issues...

source?

Please do tell…

[red cuillen]

Not enough posted to cut and paste but a tweet from red 10, and announcements from those unfortunate people who organised the Sidmouth air show

[treadigraph]

They were performing at Clacton today.

[oldmansquipper]

Not enough posted to cut and paste but a tweet from red 10, and announcements from those unfortunate people who organised the Sidmouth air show

Thank you. Let’s hope it’s not like a premiership footballer being conveniently ‘injured’ just before a transfer, if you get my drift.

[airsound]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/red-arrows-cancel-sidmouth-airshow-display-and-blame-engineering-issues/ar-AA118kWk

Wonder if Rhyl is also affected....

airsound

[NutLoose]

source?

Please do tell…

I checked the tweets being referred too by Red cuillen

Unfortunately, due to a number of engineering issues, the
@rafredarrows (https://twitter.com/rafredarrows)
will not be able to perform at Sidmouth airshow and therefore will also not be
@Exeter_Airport (https://twitter.com/Exeter_Airport)
. We are extremely disappointed and can only apologise to everyone.

https://twitter.com/RAFRed10

[biscuit74]

Admittedly, these are now some quite elderly aircraft. However, this statement about 'a number of engineering issues' sounds suspiciously like an excuse.

I hope the maintainers/engineers are not being used as handy scapegoats for the problems apparently down to pilots and possibly personalities.

[old,not bold]

The consensus opinion among the boats waiting on the edge of the exclusion zone off Sidmouth last Friday, as word of the cancellation was spread by the Exmouth Lifeboat crew, was that the "engineering issues" didn't really convince anyone. After all, "they've got 2 spare aircraft, haven't they?". But no-one would have wanted to them to fly while distracted by their problems, and we all settled down happily to enjoy the rest of the Show, especially the Spit, which seemed to be displaying to the boats rather then the beach. But perhaps that's just the new regs in action.

[AnglianAV8R]

Dare I ask..... Are they in twubble for something not already discussed in here ?
Friday, I heard the reds go past our abode, on their way to Clacton. I was curious about their return routing from Clacton and looked up the NOTAM...
They had been on route as per the NOTAM when they went past us. Their return route was to be overhead Woodbridge, Framlingham and Harleston and then across Norfolk around the Marham area.
There was only one aircraft transponding, I assume that would make sense for a formation..
They returned via a differentt route to that in the NOTAM, up the coast and then turned West just short of Beccles, (meat bomber was active) then thru the overhead of Shipdham at circa 1200' and appeared to go thru a NOTAM warning area for paragliding around the Marham MATZ stub.
So, they transit an area where there is considerable GA activity, at a level where many light aircraft are likely to be operating, pass directly overhead Shipdham whereas their NOTAM route avoided their overhead and then went thru an area where paragliding activity had been warned.
If it is considered sensible to publish a NOTAM for a low level formation of fast jets, surely the alternative routing should have been flown at a higher level away from the clutter of GA traffic.
I appreciate that the online data can be errant at times, but I believe there's enough meat on the bone here to be concerned.
This begs the question, what's the point in publishing a route and not keeping to it, while other pilots read the NOTAM and plan around it for the common goal of flight safety ?

[sycamore]

Looked to me on Thursday at Cln,that one of the Reds bogged off early,going directly N over Cln airfield...

[Archimedes]

It appears that a bird has now decided to add to the Reds' problems - one through the canopy and a landing at Hawarden. Acknowledgement toTwitter user IanC (handle =
@IAmAnIanIAm (https://twitter.com/IAmAnIanIAm)) from whose feed the image is taken

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbQ0Z9jXwAEmib3?format=jpg&name=large

[Confusious]

I'm not on Twitter, was this the reason for the no show at EGTE?

[Archimedes]

I'm not on Twitter, was this the reason for the no show at EGTE?

Apologies - edited a typo and removed reference to the fact that the Tweet was from this afternoon; the RAFAT was due to be at Rhyl according to their list of displays.

[charliegolf]

I'm not on Twitter, was this the reason for the no show at EGTE?

No, it was a birdstrike!:ok:

CG

[Confusious]

Apologies - edited a typo and removed reference to the fact that the Tweet was from this afternoon; the RAFAT was due to be at Rhyl according to their list of displays.
Ta very much!
No, it was a birdstrike!:ok:

CG
😃

[treadigraph]

Bet the bird didn't tweet after that...

[airsound]

I wonder why Red 10 referenced "a number of engineering issues" for the team's non-appearance at Sidmouth when it seems pretty clear that there was a bird strike.

airsound

[langleybaston]

Birds do seem to be a problem one way or another.

[Coachcpt]

I wonder why Red 10 referenced "a number of engineering issues" for the team's non-appearance at Sidmouth when it seems pretty clear that there was a bird strike.

airsound

the bird strike was yesterday - Sunday. As I understand it was a display on Friday at Sidmouth that was cancelled due to “tech issues”.

Looks like some mighty good aviating getting the damaged Hawk back, open cockpit and all.

[7of9]

https://apple.news/AxWtc7Sj-RKut_abMsAvg5g

https://apple.news/AG1MzYZnjRKiv8JmKwSxY7A

[BEagle]

The pilot was extremely fortunate. sharpend's encounter with a mallard duck was far, far worse as described in his excellent book A Cold War Fighter Pilot in Peacetime and War.

[Diff Tail Shim]

The pilot was extremely fortunate. sharpend's encounter with a mallard duck was far, far worse as described in his excellent book A Cold War Fighter Pilot.
Indeed, lost an eye. That was a windscreen strike I believe.

[Timelord]

I wonder where the MDC ended up. I seem to remember a similar incident in the past where the pilot had to fly back with the MDC looped around his neck!

[Coachcpt]

In jest - “Steve?!!” (As one news source is quoting The OC of the reds said “David Montenegro, Officer Commanding the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team said: “Steve (Ogston) the pilot of Red 6 is a bit shaken but well.” - source: deeside.com)….

I thought Red 6 - was Sqn Ldr Gregor Ogston.

in any case Steve/Gregor certainly demonstrated what a properly destroyed bird in the back seat of a BAe Hawk ACTUALLY looks like.

I expect the feathery protestor had a bit of timber on it to do that? Seagulls full to the brim with stolen McDonalds cheeseburgers do get rather plump mind you.

Assuming the reds ride this media “circus” out next year and go back to Rhyl it maybe worth while Red 10 spaffing off some loud bird scaring shots across the display line next year….

As I understand Flt Lt James Turner (Red 7) helped guide the stricken Jet in to a safe and professional landing at Hawarden Airport (EGNR) from the wing tip whilst the ambient noise and chatter with the inability to make effective comms was all going on.

Great team work and an outstanding result from the Syncro pair I would say.

Well done the Red Arrows! The Red Arrows may only be cancelled after Nig’elle Far-out-arge gets the shove in my opinion.

In a time where British media and public opinion is seemingly all about “who is more patriotic?” with even the Monarchy up for a public tribunal it was only a matter of time before the journalists went for another national icon. The lads are as red white blue as they come, they went off to Europe - found a nice little taverna, got on the sauce and dipped their wicks - albeit inappropriately and had a fight - I mean aren’t most of this forum not involved in the multi billion pound industry of true patriots doing exactly the same thing every summer? It’s what we do! (Sadly).

Like the rest of us the Reds were locked up
and shut down for an agonising period, brains get stale, souls get grumpy, hopes and aspirations feel dashed, tigers come out of cages, frustrations bubble to the surface. Knobs, figuratively, metaphorically and physically will come out.

Give the lads a break! They’ve still got the “stuff”!

Wow. That was a rant…..

Matt

[Coachcpt]

The pilot was extremely fortunate. sharpend's encounter with a mallard duck was far, far worse as described in his excellent book A Cold War Fighter Pilot in Peacetime and War.

And clearly a fine demonstration as to why having a back seater on display is a bad, bad idea.

Out of interest in normal trainer ops who would of been sat on the back seat? The instructor or the instructee?

With a compromised canopy like was would the ability to eject should a secondary event occur while returning be scuppered also? - should
even the canopy of blown through like it did? I expect the pop your safety hat on before you get on the job are going to be all over this event….

[langleybaston]

And clearly a fine demonstration as to why having a back seater on display is a bad, bad idea.

Out of interest in normal trainer ops who would of been sat on the back seat? The instructor or the instructee?

With a compromised canopy like was would the ability to eject should a secondary event occur while returning be scuppered also? - should
even the canopy of blown through like it did? I expect the pop your safety hat on before you get on the job are going to be all over this event….

I rather recollect that AFCs have been awarded for similar? A Gutersloh Lightning brought home by a squadron leader? Memory a bit vague.
Anyway, bloody well done sir!

[BEagle]

[...]it maybe worth while Red 10 spaffing off some loud bird scaring shots across the display line next year….[...]

In English please?

[Coachcpt]

In English please?

Oh one of those bird scaring guns that makes loud pops and disperses them prior to the display!

as I understand Rhyl is a new display area.

[Archimedes]

I rather recollect that AFCs have been awarded for similar? A Gutersloh Lightning brought home by a squadron leader? Memory a bit vague.
Anyway, bloody well done sir!

Sir Jock Stirrup for a start- citation here (LG 11/7/83) (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/49413/supplement/9151)

[57mm]

Sky news reporting that the bird "flew through the jet's window".

[MPN11]

I assume this incident certainly ‘woke’ up the Reds’ pilot. Well done!

[Background Noise]

And clearly a fine demonstration as to why having a back seater on display is a bad, bad idea.

Out of interest in normal trainer ops who would of been sat on the back seat? The instructor or the instructee?

With a compromised canopy like was would the ability to eject should a secondary event occur while returning be scuppered also? - should
even the canopy of blown through like it did? I expect the pop your safety hat on before you get on the job are going to be all over this event….

Clearly a well handled recovery, one photo I have seen shows broken bits of canopy near the engine intake which can go onto the engine which can lead to even bigger issues.

Yes, having an extra occupant can expose them to unnecessary risk, although there is a pretty thick blast screen between the cockpits so birds strikes like this rarely go through to the rear cockpit - although as can be seen in the picture above, there can be quite a lot of bird remains covering the screen and obscuring the back seater’s view forward.

In normal (pilot) training ops the instructor would sit in the back. The broken canopy would have damaged a lot of the miniature detonating cord in the front canopy - what was left ‘might’ detonate or not depending on where the breaks occur but the seat will push through any remaining bits of perspex if necessary - it shouldn’t affect an ejection by the back seater.

[reefrat]

Brill

[reefrat]

You may SNIGGER, but if it's a large dog that likes to bury bones, it could be a BIGGER DIGGER.
My previous comment of Brilll reffered to this post

[2Planks]

I'm not aware of a bird ever penetrating the blast screen between front and back seats in the Hawk. Had this bird disabled the pilot a back seater might have been handy.....

[Jhieminga]

I noticed a bit of footage in this news item: https://www.deeside.com/canopy-of-red-arrows-jet-smashed-following-birdstrike-during-rhyl-airshow-display/ showing the pilot exiting through the shattered canopy. Just my curiousity, but is that to avoid issues with the det cord?

[Bob Viking]

I had a bird break my canopy once (the first time I called Mayday for real and it was on 1 May - Mayday!) and I had a wingman lose his canopy once as well. Both times in a Hawk T1.

The first incident was on a low level target run near Lampeter. A bird of prey hit the canopy directly above the students head in the front seat and left a roughly circular hole about 18” in diameter. It got very loud and very cold (May in Wales even at low level was not exactly tropical) but once we slowed down and were on our way to Cardiff it was much quieter. Still very hard to hear the radios though. In the back seat I was unaffected by wind blast but was glad I had a flying jacket on! We were able to open the canopy and exit normally.

The second incident was at low level near Aberystwyth and I saw my wingman inexplicably climb out of low level which usually means only one thing. I closed in and saw a very similar picture to Red 6’s jet. The front seater was hunched over and MDC was flapping about everywhere. He managed to cut some of it away I believe with his knife. I did all the comm for them and led them back to Valley. I’m glad I wasn’t in that one since I’ve seen what MDC can do to brick walls and doors. I wouldn’t want to wear it like a scarf.

Anyway, in this recent instance the Reds guys did exactly what they would have briefed and practiced multiple times. I would expect no less.

BV

[Confusious]

I had a bird break my canopy once (the first time I called Mayday for real and it was on 1 May - Mayday!) and I had a wingman lose his canopy once as well. Both times in a Hawk T1.

The first incident was on a low level target run near Lampeter. A bird of prey hit the canopy directly above the students head in the front seat and left a roughly circular hole about 18” in diameter. It got very loud and very cold (May in Wales even at low level was not exactly tropical) but once we slowed down and were on our way to Cardiff it was much quieter. Still very hard to hear the radios though. In the back seat I was unaffected by wind blast but was glad I had a flying jacket on! We were able to open the canopy and exit normally.

The second incident was at low level near Aberystwyth and I saw my wingman inexplicably climb out of low level which usually means only one thing. I closed in and saw a very similar picture to Red 6’s jet. The front seater was hunched over and MDC was flapping about everywhere. He managed to cut some of it away I believe with his knife. I did all the comm for them and led them back to Valley. I’m glad I wasn’t in that one since I’ve seen what MDC can do to brick walls and doors. I wouldn’t want to wear it like a scarf.

Anyway, in this recent instance the Reds guys did exactly what they would have briefed and practiced multiple times. I would expect no less.

BV
Interesting stories, thanks for sharing Bob. 👍

[AircraftOperations]

As the damaged aircraft flew away from the Rhyl seafront and its mate was accompanying him back to Hawarden, it appeared that smoke was trailing from the engine. Does anyone know if this was simply the display smoke that wasn't yet/couldn't be turned off or if it was the engine running rough as a result of the impact?

[pr00ne]

Sky news reporting that the bird "flew through the jet's window".


Er, that is literally what happened!

[212man]

Er, that is literally what happened!
I think what he is inferring is that the jet flew into the bird but, depending on which way the bird was flying, they could have flown into each other. Probably doesn't really matter.......

[Wrathmonk]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1632x853/6a917f8c_1d53_428e_8506_4d04f97bc2b4_5167914752809307134e463 794bb56d5f5111347.jpeg
Photo copyright Mach Design Speed Photography (copied from F@cebook)

[oldmansquipper]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/444x960/9eb51cce_dcd4_469e_92f3_cb9bc7b00cfb_6af1729a8d2b6a64f10f694 5bc3da50c5a3d0804.jpeg
Great stuff Red 6! Saving lives, it’s what squippers do.

[uxb99]

So how many aircraft are they down to now? 5?

[uxb99]

Didn't a Harrier (American?) suffer the loss of it's canopy due to a Turkey Buzzard?

[212man]

So how many aircraft are they down to now? 5?
Pretty sure they have a spare or two, particularly as running at reduced numbers anyway

[treadigraph]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1632x853/6a917f8c_1d53_428e_8506_4d04f97bc2b4_5167914752809307134e463 794bb56d5f5111347.jpeg
Photo copyright Mach Design Speed Photography (copied from F@cebook)

Duck!

No, it was a seagull...

Super picture.

[pr00ne]

So how many aircraft are they down to now? 5?

Doubt it, they have 17 after all.

[Just This Once...]

Duck!

No, it was a seagull...

Super picture.

Photoshop I presume.

[oldmansquipper]

Photoshop I presume.


nah…it was a parrot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZw35VUBdzo

[pasta]

Photoshop I presume.
Have you been to an airshow recently? Literally hundreds of very expensive-looking lenses tracking every aircraft, many of them mounted on stepladders, with the constant noise of electronic shutters almost as loud as the aircraft themselves. It's no sillier than any other hobby, but if anything happens at an airshow it'll be captured in high res from every conceivable angle.

[H Peacock]

Photoshop I presume.

Have a proper look at the pic rather than a cursory glance, it’s obviously not Photoshop!! 🤔

[idle bystander]

Duck!

No, it was a seagull...
there's no such thing!

[Just This Once...]

Have a proper look at the pic rather than a cursory glance, it’s obviously not Photoshop!! 🤔

What happened to the aircraft serial number?

Why is the front seat motored all the way down, ahead of the impact?

[KPax]

If you get a chance read the DASOR, you will find your answers there, incredible piece of airmanship.

[Wensleydale]

The pilot certainly woke after that!

[Confusious]

Back in the air. :)
https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-09-01/where-to-see-the-red-arrows-this-weekend-as-airshow-returns

[8674planes]

Red 6 had an engine issue mid display and was escorted to Bournemouth by Red 7

[bobward]

JTO,
The serial number is in blue just above the under fin. it's just visible although very indistinct.

Cheers
B

[treadigraph]

there's no such thing!
You are so right, they're landgulls now.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Duck!

No, it was a seagull...

Super picture.
The 151 was badly fodded as well.

[JAARule]

You may SNIGGER, but if it's a large dog that likes to bury bones, it could be a BIGGER DIGGER.
Whose friend was named Tigger.

[megan]

Item from AVweb.A British Royal Air Force demonstration pilot was both lucky and good during a Welsh airshow performance on Aug. 28. Red Arrows Squadron Leader Gregor Osten—aka Red 6—was making an opposition pass in his Hawk T1-A jet with his counterpart Red 7 at 400 MPH just 100 feet off the ground when he spotted a seagull at the last nanosecond in his peripheral vision.He said, “I closed my eyes and ducked at that point because it was so close, and the bird hit the canopy, which unfortunately shattered. The bird and lots of the canopy then flew into the cockpit. The impact happened about two seconds before we actually crossed in the middle of the display.”

Osten credits the Red 7 pilot with quick action to avoid his aircraft, helping avert disaster. But that was just the start of the adventure. “My mask ripped from my face and was broken,” he said, “so to transmit on the radio I had to use my left hand to push the button to transmit, my right hand to hold the mask to my face. And that left me flying the aircraft with my knees, briefly.” All ended well, as Osten, in his fourth year flying for the Red Arrows, was able to maneuver for a safe landing at nearby Hawarden Airfield, where the Red Arrows were based for the show.

[EGDLaddict]

Is there a concensus on the best publically available video clip of the event?

Pse excuse me if this has laready been answered.

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bullies-force-out-red-arrows-woman-wlpwlk9hr

‘Bullies’ force out Red Arrows woman

A female member of the Red Arrows has claimed she quit the display team after making a complaint about bullying and harassment, it can be revealed.

The officer, in her early thirties, joined the elite team this year but after six months lodged a complaint to senior ranks about behaviour that made her feel “uncomfortable”, an RAF source said. They said the woman had raised concerns about a “toxic” environment and that the complaint covered the period up until this summer.

The claim comes after The Times revealed that more than 40 personnel, several of them young female recruits, have given evidence to an inquiry into the Red Arrows (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-arrows-given-training-on-consent-after-allegations-of-sex-assault-fmcg7psh2) in the biggest scandal in the team’s 57-year history. As many as four personnel are now subject to investigation by the RAF and could be thrown out of the force.

Allegations (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-arrows-engulfed-by-bullying-and-assault-row-wldnbp6zx) included at least 13 instances of alleged misconduct, including misogyny, harassment, sexual assault, bullying and indecent exposure. It is unclear when the inquiry will conclude and whether it will be made public.The RAF source said: “Although things have happened since the last story came to light (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-arrows-squad-members-hate-each-other-gttrb7x0h), the toxic behaviour is still going on and not enough is being done about it.”

In the latest case, the woman is said to have complained to senior officers about a series of issues within the unit of about 130 people.

Her case is particularly significant because it details bad behaviour from this year, at which point several servicemen had already been moved out of the elite force amid allegations they had acted inappropriately. It also casts doubt on suggestions by individuals in the RAF that problems in the Red Arrows were historical.

Philip Ingram, founder of the Independent Defence Authority (IDA), said he was “aware of the issues highlighted by this young officer”, adding that he “remains concerned that there is no real change in the culture in the Red Arrows”.

He said: “I intend to write to Sir Mike Wigston [the air chief marshal who is head of the RAF] with my concerns around this case, as it continues to highlight a failure in command and culture suggesting nothing has changed from what the IDA brought to his attention over a year ago.”

In August two individuals came forward who had given evidence to the ongoing inquiry into the Red Arrows.

One told The Times that individuals in the squadron “got away with everything” before an inquiry was launched last December by Wigston.

Another source said new female recruits were considered “fresh meat”. She said in August: “At the moment many females are at risk because there are numerous toxic pockets within the air force but there is no urgency to act.”

A third source helping with the inquiry said the allegations about the Red Arrows were the “tip of the iceberg”…..

The defence select committee, which in 2020 carried out a landmark inquiry on women in the armed forces, has reopened its inquiry following a series of scandals. The committee has asked for any new evidence as part of a follow-up after 4,000 women came forward to give evidence to the first inquiry. The women said they had experienced bullying, sexual harassment and discrimination in the armed forces.

There was also said to be “truly shocking evidence” of rape and sex for promotion or advancement.

The RAF said: “The RAF has a zero-tolerance approach to unacceptable behaviour and will complete thorough investigations into any allegations, and take appropriate action. However, we will not offer comment on the circumstances of individual personnel moves.”

[olster]

As a humble and retired airline pilot I have followed this thread with interest. I have flown with many ex Red Arrows pilots and found them in the main extremely pleasant people coupled with fairly self - evidently stellar flying skills. Reading some of the above is a reflection of the world we now live in. There is obviously and deliberately a lack of detail but much reference to toxic behaviour and ‘inappropriate’ actions but no precise evidence at least to the wider public. Cue the standard internet pile on, including of course here but the reality is that outwith the inner circle we don’t know what actually happened. As a commercial aviator after a long and stressful day I have found comfort and stress relief from a glass or three of ‘refreshment’. It is unsurprising that the display and fast jet pilots wind down in a similar manner. Indeed I have joined in after a long flight with many former team members in my long haul days. I am not sure what we expect of either the Reds or fast jet pilots in general when the skill set must surely be a high level of controlled aggression, courage, concentration and physical / mental fitness. Put bluntly it is unlikely that you become a fast jet pilot if you really wanted to be an accountant in Woking. So there is in the modern era an intolerance of any behaviour that doesn’t fit the now societal need. The recent RAF push for ‘diversity’ would highlight the way it is going. In conclusion this is just a personal alternative view with the caveat that if there really was very bad behaviour defined by any era then certainly that is unacceptable.

[mopardave]

As a humble and retired airline pilot I have followed this thread with interest. I have flown with many ex Red Arrows pilots and found them in the main extremely pleasant people coupled with fairly self - evidently stellar flying skills. Reading some of the above is a reflection of the world we now live in. There is obviously and deliberately a lack of detail but much reference to toxic behaviour and ‘inappropriate’ actions but no precise evidence at least to the wider public. Cue the standard internet pile on, including of course here but the reality is that outwith the inner circle we don’t know what actually happened. As a commercial aviator after a long and stressful day I have found comfort and stress relief from a glass or three of ‘refreshment’. It is unsurprising that the display and fast jet pilots wind down in a similar manner. Indeed I have joined in after a long flight with many former team members in my long haul days. I am not sure what we expect of either the Reds or fast jet pilots in general when the skill set must surely be a high level of controlled aggression, courage, concentration and physical / mental fitness. Put bluntly it is unlikely that you become a fast jet pilot if you really wanted to be an accountant in Woking. So there is in the modern era an intolerance of any behaviour that doesn’t fit the now societal need. The recent RAF push for ‘diversity’ would highlight the way it is going. In conclusion this is just a personal alternative view with the caveat that if there really was very bad behaviour defined by any era then certainly that is unacceptable.
You could say that of so many occupations. Nail.........head! An excellent summation Olster!

[charliegolf]

I am not sure what we expect of either the Reds or fast jet pilots in general

Maybe (in the context being considered) that they not act like boorish twats when on or off duty; or expect women to STFU and accept harassment as 'service banter'. Maybe. If they haven't done any of those things, then carry on as you were, obvs. But someone is alleging they have.

CG

[Haraka]

If you join ANY close knit professional team you have to expect to put up with some banter and severe leg pulling until you have settled in and proved your credentials . (Male OR female newbies !)

[olster]

Cheers mopardave!

[beardy]

If you join ANY close knit professional team you have to expect to put up with some banter and severe leg pulling until you have settled in and proved your credentials . (Male OR female newbies !)

I don't think that is true, but it is popular in macho fiction and it does produce great viewing figures.

Usually behaviour of that sort is indicative of a superiority complex (we know best) which leads to a rejection of different ideas and fresh blood. (But that doesn't reinforce the stereotype that sells)

[alfred_the_great]

If you join ANY close knit professional team you have to expect to put up with some banter and severe leg pulling until you have settled in and proved your credentials . (Male OR female newbies !)

Why?

1234567890

[Confusious]

Why?

1234567890
Because it's harmless fun that happens in all walks of life.

[Haraka]

Because it's harmless fun that happens in all walks of life.
Öf Course!

[alfred_the_great]

If you join ANY close knit professional team you have to expect to put up with some banter and severe leg pulling until you have settled in and proved your credentials . (Male OR female newbies !)

Because it's harmless fun that happens in all walks of life.

it’s not harmless, it’s not fun, and it degrades operational capability.

”Posted @withrepost • @mace_curran With Halloween rapidly approaching this seems like an appropriate question. Is your team playing dress-up?

Looking back at the various teams I’ve been part of, there’s a distinguishing factor that greatly affected my performance

Whether or not I was able to be ME

This was something I didn’t recognize until years after

In the thick of it, I was too busy trying to act how I thought a young fighter pilot was supposed to act

A lot of energy went into worrying about what everyone else thought

Was I laughing at the right jokes, was I not easily offended, was I being a “bro”?

What I should have been worrying about was the flying, the tactics, and being as good at my job as possible

When members of your team feel like they have to create two versions of themselves that don’t align, it’s not sustainable

It’s a surefire way to lose talented people…to burn them out

I’ve talked a lot about trust lately

Part of that environment of trust is inclusivity

Don’t create barriers that don’t need to be there

Invest in getting to know your people

Understand what motivates them…this investment will pay for itself 10x over

They aren’t all the same, even if they all wear the same uniform

#culture #inclusiveleadership #trust #community
📸: 2011, while in the Intro to Fighter Fundamentals course... starting to realize I need to "dress up" to fit in”

[Confusious]

it’s not harmless, it’s not fun, and it degrades operational capability.

”Posted @withrepost • @mace_curran With Halloween rapidly approaching this seems like an appropriate question. Is your team playing dress-up?

Looking back at the various teams I’ve been part of, there’s a distinguishing factor that greatly affected my performance

Whether or not I was able to be ME

This was something I didn’t recognize until years after

In the thick of it, I was too busy trying to act how I thought a young fighter pilot was supposed to act

A lot of energy went into worrying about what everyone else thought

Was I laughing at the right jokes, was I not easily offended, was I being a “bro”?

What I should have been worrying about was the flying, the tactics, and being as good at my job as possible

When members of your team feel like they have to create two versions of themselves that don’t align, it’s not sustainable

It’s a surefire way to lose talented people…to burn them out

I’ve talked a lot about trust lately

Part of that environment of trust is inclusivity

Don’t create barriers that don’t need to be there

Invest in getting to know your people

Understand what motivates them…this investment will pay for itself 10x over

They aren’t all the same, even if they all wear the same uniform

#culture #inclusiveleadership #trust #community
📸: 2011, while in the Intro to Fighter Fundamentals course... starting to realize I need to "dress up" to fit in”
The bit you may have missed from Haraka's post is this (Male OR female newbies !), that's harmless banter. If you're being targeted by your peers and mocked then I agree with you that is entirely unacceptable, but that's a totally different animal to the definition of harmless fun.

[ORAC]

The old excuses - it was just harmless banter, a joke, a bit of fun, they’re thin skinned - used by racists, homophobes, bullies, sexists through the years.

[mopardave]

So what do we do? Do we act like automatons because the fun police have instigated a campaign of fear lest anyone gets their leg pulled? There's a world of difference between "harmless banter" and abuse. Abuse, bullying and intimidation are unacceptable and I'd hope that anyone feeling threatened could vocalise their discomfort......I'd also hope those dishing out the "banter" would have the intelligence to know when to draw the line. Are we not just getting a little thin skinned? The fun and team spirit were certainly being sucked out of my final career and working life become rather dull as a result. We've lost any sense of perspective in so many things.

[charliegolf]

So what do we do?

Read the room and exercise a bit of self control. Does anyone think grabbing an arse, or 'jokingly' saying, "Show us yer tits then!" is OK?

CG

[beardy]

Read the room and exercise a bit of self control. Does anyone think grabbing an arse, or 'jokingly' saying, "Show us yer tits then!" is OK?

CG
Apparently it's fine if you want to be like Liam Gallagher (at Knebworth)

[charliegolf]

Beardy, you make my point for me.

CG

[langleybaston]

In this respect are the armed services divorced from normality?

I did 41 years as an MoD scientist, cheek by jowl with the RAF and army. I merely have no idea what is being discussed.

Put a job before us, we did it.

What happened to integrity, loyalty and the work ethic? Never mind good manners?

FFS

[Haraka]

What happened to integrity, loyalty and the work ethic? Never mind good manners?

FFS
And a self deprecating sense of humour?
An Astrophysisist I worked with once pointed out to me that if you just predicted that today's weather would be the same as yesterday's, you would have an 80% chance of being correct.
Apparently a significantly higher percentage than that achieved by Meteorologists :)

[mopardave]

Read the room and exercise a bit of self control. Does anyone think grabbing an arse, or 'jokingly' saying, "Show us yer tits then!" is OK?

CG
Couldn't agree more.......of course that kind of behaviour is unacceptable. I'm not suggesting it is and you well know that.

[langleybaston]

And a self deprecating sense of humour?
An Astrophysicist I worked with once pointed out to me that if you just predicted that today's weather would be the same as yesterday's, you would have an 80% chance of being correct.
Apparently a significantly higher percentage than that achieved by Meteorologists :)

Your astrophysicist was on another planet. If you are a British taxpayer, rejoice. You have the best Met. service in the world, forecasting for the most difficult. [Actually Falklands is worse].
My duties included an annual inspection of each office and a meeting with the station commander or OC Ops. At a time of cuts cuts cuts not one of them were willing to lose instant access to dedicated Met. We must have been doing something right, and progress since then [mid 1990s] has been staggering.

"When I'm right, no one remembers, when I'm wrong no one forgets"

[Thud105]

General Thomas Power of Strategic Air Command observed at one briefing that, “at the end of the war, if there are two Americans and one Russian left alive, we win!” The RAND Corporation’s Professor William Kaufmann replied "Well, you'd better make sure that they're a man and a woman". I honestly think that there are some people (many but not all of the LGBTQ++ camp) who would genuinely feel that Professor Kaufmann's riposte could be construed as homophobic.

[megan]

You're being homophobic Thud :p, seems you missed some, lgbtqia+, gotta be inclusive I'm told, personally I wouldn't have had a clue, had to look it up.
.

[langleybaston]

General Thomas Power of Strategic Air Command observed at one briefing that, “at the end of the war, if there are two Americans and one Russian left alive, we win!” The RAND Corporation’s Professor William Kaufmann replied "Well, you'd better make sure that they're a man and a woman". I honestly think that there are some people (many but not all of the LGBTQ++ camp) who would genuinely feel that Professor Kaufmann's riposte could be construed as homophobic.

That was the Russian, batting for the other team.

[mad_collie]

Looks like Flt Lt Green will be looking for a new job.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11405461/Red-Arrows-pilot-sacked-sexual-assault-claims-following-suggestion-RAF-covered-allegations.html

[dervish]

I'm a little disturbed over this. Setting to one side for a moment the allegations, it does smack of "let's have another go and find him guilty this time". What effect will it have on those who said there was "insufficient evidence" first time around? What of the allegations that pressure was applied on those affected to shut up? That surely is a worse offence. Would a proper investigation reveal full knowledge of what was going on among higher ups? What a mess.

[CharlieMike]

I'm a little disturbed over this. Setting to one side for a moment the allegations, it does smack of "let's have another go and find him guilty this time". What effect will it have on those who said there was "insufficient evidence" first time around? What of the allegations that pressure was applied on those affected to shut up? That surely is a worse offence. Would a proper investigation reveal full knowledge of what was going on among higher ups? What a mess.

No idea what went on previously but it would be perfectly reasonable to decide not to progress criminally, based on insufficient evidence then subseqently conduct a non-statutory enquiry which resulted in his dismissal. The former has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt whereas the latter could be concluded on the balance of probability. Seems a likely scenario when it is someones word against another.

[Hueymeister]

Plenty of work for him via a South African Trg Company..who might supply pilots for Instructional duties North of Hong Kong....

[alfred_the_great]

I'm a little disturbed over this. Setting to one side for a moment the allegations, it does smack of "let's have another go and find him guilty this time". What effect will it have on those who said there was "insufficient evidence" first time around? What of the allegations that pressure was applied on those affected to shut up? That surely is a worse offence. Would a proper investigation reveal full knowledge of what was going on among higher ups? What a mess.

it is a curious mindset that says “it wasn’t criminal, therefore we can’t sack him”…

[langleybaston]

it is a curious mindset that says “it wasn’t criminal, therefore we can’t sack him”…

Sorry I cannot agree. Sacking can be for a variety of legitimate causes, with criminality top of a long scale.

[Big Unit Specialist]

Is he going to hand back his Ping golf clubs, Breitling watch and Barbour coat then?

[air pig]

It would be an interesting case to bring before an employment tribunal?

[MPN11]

Sorry I cannot agree. Sacking can be for a variety of legitimate causes, with criminality top of a long scale.
Indeed. It took me a long time to adminatratively remove one of my airmen, whose only offence was uselessness. But that route always exists ... DSNLR.

[dervish]

No idea what went on previously but it would be perfectly reasonable to decide not to progress criminally, based on insufficient evidence then subseqently conduct a non-statutory enquiry which resulted in his dismissal. The former has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt whereas the latter could be concluded on the balance of probability. Seems a likely scenario when it is someones word against another.

Thanks CM. I didn't fully appreciate that subtlety.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Thanks CM. I didn't fully appreciate that subtlety.
One can be sacked from a civilian company for gross misconduct that is not criminal. Isn't bringing the service into disrepute still a Kings Regulation? ( I had to think then!)

[charliegolf]

One can be sacked from a civilian company for gross misconduct that is not criminal. Isn't bringing the service into disrepute still a Kings Regulation? ( I had to think then!)

Section 69? (We can always find a way to get you.)

CG

[cynicalint]

One can be sacked from a civilian company for gross misconduct that is not criminal. Isn't bringing the service into disrepute still a Kings Regulation? ( I had to think then!)
Non-criminal conduct (disciplinary) offences (manual of service law)

CONDUCT PREJUDICIAL TO GOOD ORDER AND SERVICE DISCIPLINE CONTRARY TO SECTION 19(1) OF THE ARMED FORCES ACT 2006

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/617131/20170510-Chapter_7-Non-criminal_conduct-AL42-v1.pdf

God, I remember well the arm ache of Marching from No 1 Mess to Whittle hall with a kit bag full of QRs and MAFL ( Even if we rarely used them!), along with everything else needed for the day!
The catch-all that covers anything else not covered in KRs It was a different section number (CG has it correct) before 2006, but the intent remains the same.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Air Marshal Richard Knighton - now DCOM Capability & People (RAF) - giving evidence to HCDC 8 Nov 22:

From 11:13:07 here:

Change in policy wef 19 Nov 22: those who have committed sexual harassment will be removed from the Service.

AFB decided on Green after the investigation was concluded.

Another case will be considered by the AFB when the investigation is complete.


https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/cd5cf1d5-6638-48c5-a54a-976d73d7e5aa

[LateArmLive]

Judging from what I've heard from some of the team, this was long overdue. It's about to get worse too.

[langleybaston]

Air Marshal Richard Knighton - now DCOM Capability & People (RAF) - giving evidence to HCDC 8 Nov 22:

From 11:13:07 here:

Change in policy wef 19 Nov 22: those who have committed sexual harassment will be removed from the Service.

AFB decided on Green after the investigation was concluded.

Another case will be considered by the AFB when the investigation is complete.


https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/cd5cf1d5-6638-48c5-a54a-976d73d7e5aa

Whereas I am totally opposed to sexual harassment [indeed any harassment] this is a very difficult area, particularly if there are no third party witnesses or written or texting evidence.
We can quickly be in an area where malicious accusations can wreck someone's career and life: male or female.
That is not to say don't try, but I am glad that I have nothing to do in the matter. I only had one case to deal with, the female complaining. Under the urgent circumstances I had the good sense to bring a trusted female colleague into the office to observe and note.
Can of worms

[alfred_the_great]

Whereas I am totally opposed to sexual harassment [indeed any harassment] this is a very difficult area, particularly if there are no third party witnesses or written or texting evidence.
We can quickly be in an area where malicious accusations can wreck someone's career and life: male or female.
That is not to say don't try, but I am glad that I have nothing to do in the matter. I only had one case to deal with, the female complaining. Under the urgent circumstances I had the good sense to bring a trusted female colleague into the office to observe and note.
Can of worms

oh, there’s plenty of evidence by all accounts.

might well be described as an example of golden boys thinking they were acting with impunity because they’re Fast Jet mates, and it’s all a bit of banter at the end of the day…

[4everAD]

I fully understand the unacceptable aspect of the serious reported behaviours on the Reds and in the recent Navy allegations but, the trouble is we have now got to the stage where minor infringements of the new Unacceptable Sexual Behaviour policy require a 2* to determine whether an individual remains in service or not; to the point where if you innocently use a term of endearment (babe/love/pet) and someone complains it is harassment it will be investigated and if proved will go to AVM for a decision on whether you keep your career. Apparently, it also encompasses Micro-Aggressions to which the JSP even states that the individual may not even realise they're doing it!

It's getting to the stage where you're safer just closing your door and not interacting with anyone for fear of upsetting/harassing them and being discharged from the service.

[pr00ne]

I fully understand the unacceptable aspect of the serious reported behaviours on the Reds and in the recent Navy allegations but, the trouble is we have now got to the stage where minor infringements of the new Unacceptable Sexual Behaviour policy require a 2* to determine whether an individual remains in service or not; to the point where if you innocently use a term of endearment (babe/love/pet) and someone complains it is harassment it will be investigated and if proved will go to AVM for a decision on whether you keep your career. Apparently, it also encompasses Micro-Aggressions to which the JSP even states that the individual may not even realise they're doing it!

It's getting to the stage where you're safer just closing your door and not interacting with anyone for fear of upsetting/harassing them and being discharged from the service.

Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.

[langleybaston]

Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.

I have enormous sympathy with both sides of the situation.
The fact remains, how does one [of either gender or genders] start a relationship without risk? Matters have become silly despite being driven by excellent intentions to solve a real societal problem.
What qualifies a two-star to be judge and jury?
We are experiencing yet another situation of unintended consequences.

[Cornish Jack]

In 35+ years, I only knew of one instance of the "Conduct prejudicial ..." being used. At the time of Suez, there were multiple troop movements around the ME and shortage of transport aircraft meant using Tudors (which had been banned from pax flying.) One of our aircrew ( a confirmed alcoholic and 'reggie spotter') witnessed the arrival, and, in well-oiled anxiety, informed the troops on board that their aircraft was unsafe. Their subsequent refusal to board for onward passage to Nairobi lead, eventually, to the 'whistle-blower' being charged, demoted and dismissed.

[alfred_the_great]

I have enormous sympathy with both sides of the situation.
The fact remains, how does one [of either gender or genders] start a relationship without risk? Matters have become silly despite being driven by excellent intentions to solve a real societal problem.
What qualifies a two-star to be judge and jury?
We are experiencing yet another situation of unintended consequences.

From my observations of my juniors starting relationships, it’s generally pretty bloody obvious if both sides “want it”.

and if an individual is not sure, then their advance is unlikely to be welcome…

[charliegolf]

Even in the 70s, when wokeness wasn't even a twinkle in political correctness's eye, a DI would approach a male recruit and say, "Bloggs, I am about to touch you to adjust your hat/belt/tie." Expletives were no longer (officially) allowed as encouragement. Forty years on, if a man (usually) can't or won't work out that the 'show-us-yer-tits, I'd give you one Darlin', mine's milk and 2' approach is sexist and unwanted harassment; let alone climbing into a woman's window or groping someone, then it really doesn't take a 2* to make a decision to bin them. Further, if a J/SNCO can be shown to have 'not acted' when this happens, out they go too.

CG

[Sky Sports]

https://www.suffolkgazette.com/suffolk-pilot-selected-for-red-arrows/

Hopefully this will bring some stability to the team for the 2023 season. I've known Paul for a long time now. He's a very capable pilot and a good leader. Onwards and upwards!

[dctyke]

Even in the 70s, when wokeness wasn't even a twinkle in political correctness's eye, a DI would approach a male recruit and say, "Bloggs, I am about to touch you to adjust your hat/belt/tie." Expletives were no longer (officially) allowed as encouragement. Forty years on, if a man (usually) can't or won't work out that the 'show-us-yer-tits, I'd give you one Darlin', mine's milk and 2' approach is sexist and unwanted harassment; let alone climbing into a woman's window or groping someone, then it really doesn't take a 2* to make a decision to bin them. Further, if a J/SNCO can be shown to have 'not acted' when this happens, out they go too.

CG

Well that certainly was not the case at swinderby in 1972! Expletives happened to non white recruits on my entry and I never heard any D I ask permission before touching recruits.

[charliegolf]

Well that certainly was not the case at swinderby in 1972! Expletives happened to non white recruits on my entry and I never heard any D I ask permission before touching recruits.

I was '79, and the DI explained it perfectly clearly. Forty years passing, however, is not open to question!

CG

[ScotchEggLoophole]

Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.

He said minor infringements of the new policy. Not sexual harassment. The policy includes both. The policy does indeed mention calling someone ‘babe’ as an example of something where the presumption is discharge. Mitigating or aggravated circumstances may change or solidify that case. Harassing behaviour involves more than a one-off, and likely deserves discharge, but said one-off also starts at discharge as a punishment. Fancy a discharge for someone overhearing your chat with a mate that offends them ? Or a wink?

[ScotchEggLoophole]

have a gander at the policy yourself. Search .gov.uk for 2022DIN01-073: Zero tolerance of unacceptable sexual behaviour: a victim/survivor-focused approach

[Diff Tail Shim]

Well that certainly was not the case at swinderby in 1972! Expletives happened to non white recruits on my entry and I never heard any D I ask permission before touching recruits.
84, one of our guys was called the N word by the Cpl DI.

[Finningley Boy]

Disband Red Arrows, say victims of 'constant sex pestering' after concerns are raised over squadron | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11418591/Disband-Red-Arrows-say-victims-constant-sex-pestering-concerns-raised-squadron.html)

Now its starting to get silly, the ladies in this news release say the team should be disbanded to get rid of the "toxic culture" suggesting an entirely new team be formed, but from where?

FB

[megan]

suggesting an entirely new team be formed, but from whereAll female perhaps. ;)

[Finningley Boy]

All female perhaps. ;)
I'm sure this is what is being alluded to.

FB

[LateArmLive]

For all those banging on about wokeness, this is a case of a person being an absolute arseclown and deserving to be shown the door.

[alfred_the_great]

Disband Red Arrows, say victims of 'constant sex pestering' after concerns are raised over squadron | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11418591/Disband-Red-Arrows-say-victims-constant-sex-pestering-concerns-raised-squadron.html)

Now its starting to get silly, the ladies in this news release say the team should be disbanded to get rid of the "toxic culture" suggesting an entirely new team be formed, but from where?

FB

wherever you get the Red Arrows from? There’s something to be said about completely starting from a clean slate.

[SOX80]

Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.

I have to disagree with this. The problem with the new legislation is that it seems to bunch a huge variety of behaviour under the same title, as so often in modern discourse there seems to be no nuance. Calling someone babe is to my mind less serious than making an unsolicited advance which is less serious than exposing yourself. They are all probably unacceptable behaviour (although people call each other babe/love all the time!) but I would suggest the first could be dealt with by having a word with the perpetrator and the others may well be a case for dismissal. Sexual harassment, like any other 'crime' has a grade from Minor to Serious, hence the need in criminal cases for a judge to decide a sentence based on the severity of the offence. There is a real risk here that people make an error of judgement or even just an error of perception and find themselves suddenly being accused of 'sexual harassment', dismissed from the service and probably prevented from meaningful further employment. I am not suggesting turning a blind eye and ignoring this (as has clearly been done in the past) just that we need to be careful and not swing from one extreme to another.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

wherever you get the Red Arrows from? There’s something to be said about completely starting from a clean slate.

However that surely would be very unfair to any of the current people who are completely innocent?

As I understand it, the whole Red Arrows operation amounts to well over 100 people? That will include, assuming at least some of the current allegations are true, both the guilty and the victims. It will also inevitably include those who, whilst not guilty themselves, turned a blind eye which could (should) be regarded as an offence in itself.

I assume the rolling change in the pilots (two or three new per year?) is considered essential for training so it would be very difficult to start afresh with 9 (11) new ones?

Maybe that is also true for at least some of the 100+ support personnel?

Depending on the future of the team given the age of the jets, the lack of an obvious alternative and the current financial situation then maybe the time has come to pull the plug entirely?

Not a great way to end a high profile national institution!

[alfred_the_great]

Yes, but…

whikst every individual who conducts lower grade sexual harassment won’t escalate their behaviour, every individual who commits serious or very serious sexual crimes has started with lower grade sexual harassment.

it’s for that reason I’d suggest every lower level case should be recorded and discussed. Does this mean calling someone “love” innocuously mean a permanent record: I very much doubt it. Does it mean repeatedly and deliberately making someone feel uncomfortable results in formal action: absolutely.

[tucumseh]

It will also inevitably include those who, whilst not guilty themselves, turned a blind eye which could (should) be regarded as an offence in itself.


This.


If the allegations against these officers are true, then it might be seen as part of a culture which for some years has encouraged the squadron to "deviate" from the norm with impunity. And those who condoned it are well known, as they confirmed they were content when interviewed (e.g.) after Sean Cunningham was killed. And while the allegations are certainly serious, is it not interesting that the RAF hierarchy deem multiple avoidable deaths as unworthy of further action? Should those cases not be pursued with the same vigour? They are certainly far more clear cut.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

This.


If the allegations against these officers are true, then it might be seen as part of a culture which for some years has encouraged the squadron to "deviate" from the norm with impunity. And those who condoned it are well known, as they confirmed they were content when interviewed (e.g.) after Sean Cunningham was killed. And while the allegations are certainly serious, is it not interesting that the RAF hierarchy deem multiple avoidable deaths as unworthy of further action? Should those cases not be pursued with the same vigour? They are certainly far more clear cut.

Certainly.

As far as I am aware the Red Arrows have a far worse safety record than many (all) of the other jet display teams around the world?

If that is correct, then one has to ask if the lack of self discipline and "untouchable" attitude that has lead to the current accusations spills over into their attitude to flight safety?

[lsh]

"Depending on the future of the team given the age of the jets, the lack of an obvious alternative and the current financial situation then maybe the time has come to pull the plug entirely?"
Agreed, sad as it is.

ECLAT "brilliant display or effect" - looking at the whole, this has not been true for some time.
Three fatal accidents. Two of which show poor knowledge and discipline.
Unacceptable personal behaviour, tarnishing the public's imagine of the RAF and the team.

Is this team still a good recruiting tool? Are we still demonstrating excellence? Are we still helping UK defence sales?

Best thing is to close down the RAF aerobatic team.
Place all the personnel into RAF squadrons, where their skills will be welcomed and much needed.
Revisit the whole concept downstream - something smaller and more easily (and closely) managed perhaps.

lsh

[Brain Potter]

Should a second individual be sanctioned for behaviour similar to that of Flt Lt Green, then reports about the broader culture within the team gain significant credibility, indicating a failure of leadership and oversight. Those holding positions of leadership or oversight of this unit when these events occurred must be held to account. Accountability is not demonstrated by simply dismissing the perpetrators.

[charliegolf]

Have any (pretty sure some have) Reds spent significantly more than 3 years on the team?

CG

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Have any (pretty sure some have) Reds spent significantly more than 3 years on the team?

CG

I think one, now retired from the RAF, spent around ten years in the team, including at least one recall to cover for a sick / injured team member and also a stint as Red 10.

As I understand it, up to a certain point in the pre season training they will fill a gap with a past team member if a suitable person is available.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Should a second individual is sanctioned for behaviour similar to that of Flt Lt Green, then reports about the broader culture within the team gain significant credibility, indicating a failure of leadership and oversight. Those holding positions of leadership or oversight of this unit when these events occurred must be held to account. Accountability is not demonstrated by simply dismissing the perpetrators.

Indeed it is not.

Worse, of course, is not dismissing a perpetrator because of the difficulty / impossibility of finding a replacement and leaving a very public gap.

Did one pilot not resign from the team this year because he was so unhappy with the "culture" of the rest? If so, then that is commendable in many ways.

[Jobza Guddun]

Disbandment - can't speak for the pilot cadre, but how many of those engineers will want to stay in the RAF when their options for posting are realistically only Odiham, Benson and Lossiemouth? When many of them are in their own houses in the area, not a retention-positive outcome I'd suggest.

I don't think very many of us know the exact details of what's gone on. The chances are that these behavioural incidents centre on a minority rather than a majority, and if that's the case notwithstanding the PR damage the team should not be disbanded. It looks like the individuals concerned are being targeted and dealt with, as they should, and there may yet be more than than these two pilots' cases to go in front of the AFB. If not directly involved, I would still expect that the command group would be replaced for failing in their responsibilities - I would if I was there myself. There have to be consequences for their performance.

This would be the starting place for the cultural shift that has to take place, the "last chance" for the team to get its act together. They should also take the opportunity to review who has simply been there too long and have become entrenched, incapable of or resistant to change, and move them on. Those people always exist and will be well-known within the team. If what is left is able to continue operating, the game goes on. If not, then maybe it IS time for them to go. Give the decent people there a chance to fix the whole set-up, and give them quality replacements to work with - those who can walk the walk, not just talk a good job in front of senior officers.

Don't throw the team away just yet, that's the easy way out.

[Finningley Boy]

For all those banging on about wokeness, this is a case of a person being an absolute arseclown and deserving to be shown the door.
To pick up on other's observations, do we know exactly what he did? I'm certainly not looking to exonerate, simply establish what exactly throws women into a fearful retreat regarding the behaviour of a single member of the opposite sex. Especially, and I say this advisedly, as these women are serving members of the armed forces, people may like to mull over what that might mean.

FB

[Finningley Boy]

wherever you get the Red Arrows from? There’s something to be said about completely starting from a clean slate.
Sir,

That's quite simply put, but what about the current team, and the already selected new members? What have they done to deserve being disbanded? Is "toxic culture" just a sweeping insinuation now? That once levelled requires an extreme and hysterical reaction.

FB

[charliegolf]

Heard on R4 this pm, that from 19th Nov, there will be a presumption of dismissal for anyone investigated for, and found guilty of sexual harassment. What's shocking to me, is that until the 19th, if a person alleges rape, his or her own chain of command investigates. Even after the 19th changes, serious 'civil' crimes will continue to be dealt with by the military. But we're assured they won't cover anything up, so that's ok....

CG

[beardy]

Especially, and I say this advisedly, as these women are serving members of the armed forces, people may like to mull over what that might mean.


You must have something in mind that you don't want to explain, why not?

[Finningley Boy]

You must have something in mind that you don't want to explain, why not?
Very well, and just for the record, I'm not on a crusade to change anything, I know the score so here goes, why do we treat women as particularly vulnerable and then seek to place them in harms way (in the name of equality of course) where they will be relied upon to rely on their mettle in a life or death situation? Feminists pursue this inconsistent logic, indeed the whole of society does now. Its a general point, but to question it is to upset lots of people with no change in thinking. This is why the odd balls like myself don't do it, there's no point, but seeing as you're having a gotcha moment.... Just to recap about the Red Arrows saga, it was 40 female complainants against one man, if I'm right.

FB

[rattman]

Very well, and just for the record, I'm not on a crusade to change anything, I know the score so here goes, why do we treat women as particularly vulnerable and then seek to place them in harms way

Ahhh Get it so because they join the military its OK for them to be sexually assaulted and raped because they are "tough" whats the cut off. Nurses who work in ER more a likely to be physically assaulted than someone in the military and I would consider it a tougher job than an average women in the military. So guess its fine to rape them. Same with female police officers. Guessing male on male rape is also fine according to your theory

[megan]

In Oz the legal definition of sexual harassment includes,

unwelcome touching;
staring or leering;
suggestive comments or jokes;
sexually explicit pictures or posters;
unwanted invitations to go out on dates;
requests for sex;
intrusive questions about a person's private life or body;
unnecessary familiarity, such as deliberately brushing up against a person;
insults or taunts based on sex;
sexually explicit physical contact; and
sexually explicit emails or SMS text messages

Some seem to based on what the recipient feels rather than the intent. Recently talking to a lass who started tearing when remembering the death of a loved one, touched on her the hand and let it dwell for a moment as an indication of affirmation for her grief, I'm sure there would be feminists who would categorise it as sexual harssment.

unwanted invitations to go out on a date - how is a fella to make that initial contact, how in the world is he going to know its unwanted prior to the lass saying she's not interested

staring - if they are drop dead gorgeous and dress provocatively who's not going to take a look or two

requests for sex - where do I complain, have had one or two

[beardy]

Very well, and just for the record, I'm not on a crusade to change anything, I know the score so here goes, why do we treat women as particularly vulnerable and then seek to place them in harms way (in the name of equality of course) where they will be relied upon to rely on their mettle in a life or death situation?


I don't think that they are being treated as particularly vulnerable. Harassment and bullying are wrong, sexual harassment is worse because it isolates an individual feature in the same way as anti-semitism and racism etc..

Men and women join the services understanding and accepting the risk to life and limb that combat entails. They do not join to be bullied, humiliated and raped by their fellows in arms. Yes, rape happens to men as well.

Your analysis, I believe, uses a false premise that women are being treated as vulnerable by feminists and yet being employed to be put in harm's way. But, that's a different argument and this is not the right venue.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Ahhh Get it so because they join the military its OK for them to be sexually assaulted and raped because they are "tough" whats the cut off. Nurses who work in ER more a likely to be physically assaulted than someone in the military and I would consider it a tougher job than an average women in the military. So guess its fine to rape them. Same with female police officers. Guessing male on male rape is also fine according to your theory

Exactly!

I have to say I was appalled by some of Finningley Boy's comments.

Yes, anybody joining the armed forces (or police etc) accepts that they are putting themselves in harms way from the enemy (or in the case of the police, criminals).

What they should not be is in harms way from their own colleagues, let alone superiors!

[downsizer]

unwanted invitations to go out on a date - how is a fella to make that initial contact, how in the world is he going to know its unwanted prior to the lass saying she's not interested


It's pretty easy really - "Want to go on a date...?" "No? Ok then, thanks."

Repeated requests is the issue.

I really wonder if people are being deliberately obtuse on some of these matters.

It's really easy to not be a sex pest ffs.

[Finningley Boy]

Ahhh Get it so because they join the military its OK for them to be sexually assaulted and raped because they are "tough" whats the cut off. Nurses who work in ER more a likely to be physically assaulted than someone in the military and I would consider it a tougher job than an average women in the military. So guess its fine to rape them. Same with female police officers. Guessing male on male rape is also fine according to your theory
I never even hinted at all the emotional garbage above, but I expected it and I rather imagine Beardy's prompt was hoping for it.

FB

[langleybaston]

I never even hinted at all the emotional garbage above, but I expected it and I rather imagine Beardy's prompt was hoping for it.

FB
unsurptisingly I take your point .... you are wise enough not to deal in shrill absolutes. Anybody who cannot pick up some nuances in the discussion might just be a virtue signalling groper for example.

[beardy]

I never even hinted at all the emotional garbage above, but I expected it and I rather imagine Beardy's prompt was hoping for it.

FB
I asked why you didn't want to explain yourself. I didn't ask you for an explanation, but thank you for sharing your opinion.

[WB627]

My Dad said to me as I was about to start work at 18, never mix business and pleasure. Good advice, always heeded.

[Finningley Boy]

unsurptisingly I take your point .... you are wise enough not to deal in shrill absolutes. Anybody who cannot pick up some nuances in the discussion might just be a virtue signalling groper for example.

Exactly, its interesting how there are so many unexpected surprises sometimes. It seems to be the way of it now, you are either one extreme or the other, dare to ask a question or two about an incident which has got the woke brigade in full ceremony and you're looking at criminal charges almost. Alas, I fully expected the outraged reaction of some. It satisfies the very specific question Beardy asked, which it would appear I went too deep on, he just wanted a straight forward reason rather than further clarification of what I was alluding to, usually what people mean when they ask searching questions. But I've proved my point, the irrational over the top vilification!
Many thanks Sir,

FB

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Sorry about the "newspaper" in the link!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11445485/Second-pilot-axed-Red-Arrows-shame-bringing-disgrace-Armed-Forces.html

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Royal Air Force Aerobatics team - unacceptable behaviours statement

Following allegations from individuals within the RAF Aerobatics Team (The Red Arrows), an Inquiry was initiated that revealed a broad range of unacceptable behaviours.

The RAF Police Special Investigations Branch investigated specific allegations and whilst there were no criminal cases to be answered, we continue to look into the circumstances that led to the inquiry. To date, several RAF personnel have been investigated under the RAF’s Major Administrative Action Procedures. These investigations have resulted in a range of outcomes up to and including dismissals from the RAF.

The inquiry recommended a variety of measures to improve behaviours and culture on the unit. Many of these recommendations have already been implemented and all are being pursued as a priority. They included actions to improve understanding of what is and isn’t acceptable and how to stop unacceptable behaviours. The whole team has received extensive training on unacceptable behaviours and ‘Walk on By’ cultures. Additional training on unacceptable behaviours has also recently been implemented across the Royal Air Force.

The RAF commends the actions of all those who came forward to provide the inquiry and subsequent investigations with their evidence. It is important for unacceptable behaviour to be called out and reported wherever and whenever it is encountered. We take all allegations of unacceptable behaviour extremely seriously and will continue to take decisive action against anyone who fails to uphold our high standards, in accordance with the Ministry of Defence’s Zero Tolerance Policy.

[Low average]

Following allegations from individuals within the RAF Aerobatics Team (The Red Arrows), an Inquiry was initiated that revealed a broad range of unacceptable behaviours.

The whole team has received extensive training on unacceptable behaviours and ‘Walk on By’ cultures.

I hope the investigators identify the root cause. Seems like previous investigations (and there are a few to choose from), haven't.

[Chugalug2]

Sorry about the "newspaper" in the link!
No need to be. It has the highest circulation of all UK national dailies, over 920,000 at the last count. Unless of course you mean that the approx. 1M readers of it are greatly in error in doing so. In which case that is a personal opinion only and might be held equally by others of a different political persuasion to you about less successful papers. This default apology for links to the Daily Mail is becoming rather irritating. Either we apologise for every media link here or for none. If you want to link then do so. No need for an accompanying apology. If that's too much to ask, then don't post the link. Simples!

Oh, to avoid the wrath of the mods I'd better say something re the thread OP. My thoughts on the Reds are that they are an indulgence we can no longer afford. They should man the front-line squadrons or train others to do so. Some of the sentiments expressed here have been full of hubris and disdain for those of us who aren't/weren't FJ pilots. We are accused of jealousy and having a chip on our shoulders. More likely a case of pot calling kettle black I would suggest. We should all be concerned with what is best for the Royal Air Force and UK Air Power. I know I am.

[Finningley Boy]

No need to be. It has the highest circulation of all UK national dailies, over 920,000 at the last count. Unless of course you mean that the approx. 1M readers of it are greatly in error in doing so. In which case that is a personal opinion only and might be held equally by others of a different political persuasion to you about less successful papers. This default apology for links to the Daily Mail is becoming rather irritating. Either we apologise for every media link here or for none. If you want to link then do so. No need for an accompanying apology. If that's too much to ask, then don't post the link. Simples!

Oh, to avoid the wrath of the mods I'd better say something re the thread OP. My thoughts on the Reds are that they are an indulgence we can no longer afford. They should man the front-line squadrons or train others to do so. Some of the sentiments expressed here have been full of hubris and disdain for those of us who aren't/weren't FJ pilots. We are accused of jealousy and having a chip on our shoulders. More likely a case of pot calling kettle black I would suggest. We should all be concerned with what is best for the Royal Air Force and UK Air Power. I know I am.
Well said Sir, but I disagree about disbanding the Red Arrows, they are still a prestigious asset, like the Queen's (should that now be King's?) Colour Squadron. The recent investigations haven't served them or the RAF well, but enough said.

FB

[Chugalug2]

FB, thanks for the kind words and no problem with your disagreeing with me, which surely is in the nature of a conversation. We don't have to agree but should tolerate the views that we disagree with. This thread has wandered somewhat from that ideal, which tells you more about those who lack tolerance than it does about those whose views they oppose.

The great days of the Hendon Air Displays (and no, I wasn't around then to witness them!) was to make this nation 'air-minded'. I would suggest that the nation is very air-minded these days, given the increasing foot fall in our air terminals. It may be entertained by air displays, but it has plenty of evidence about the effects of Air Power on the TV news alone. Is it the job of the RAF to entertain or to more effectively confront those who oppose us? The other reason for Air Displays such as those of the Red Arrows is to aid recruitment. I can only refer to my own experience as a schoolboy CCF cadet. It was far more important to me to go solo in an Air Cadet glider than it was to watch an RAF aerobatic team display. If you want to recruit, then invest more in the Air Cadets and give them back their gliders!

But all this is thread drift (there, condemned out of my own mouth!). My only justification is that in disbanding the Reds you would not only improve UK Air Power, you would also perhaps solve the problems inherent with this anomalous unit whereby practice and procedure common to RAF operational units i(like the QCS) is laid aside the better to follow its own agendas, personal or organisational.