Not-so-woke Reds

[Finningley Boy]

FB, thanks for the kind words and no problem with your disagreeing with me, which surely is in the nature of a conversation. We don't have to agree but should tolerate the views that we disagree with. This thread has wandered somewhat from that ideal, which tells you more about those who lack tolerance than it does about those whose views they oppose.

The great days of the Hendon Air Displays (and no, I wasn't around then to witness them!) was to make this nation 'air-minded'. I would suggest that the nation is very air-minded these days, given the increasing foot fall in our air terminals. It may be entertained by air displays, but it has plenty of evidence about the effects of Air Power on the TV news alone. Is it the job of the RAF to entertain or to more effectively confront those who oppose us? The other reason for Air Displays such as those of the Red Arrows is to aid recruitment. I can only refer to my own experience as a schoolboy CCF cadet. It was far more important to me to go solo in an Air Cadet glider than it was to watch an RAF aerobatic team display. If you want to recruit, then invest more in the Air Cadets and give them back their gliders!

But all this is thread drift (there, condemned out of my own mouth!). My only justification is that in disbanding the Reds you would not only improve UK Air Power, you would also perhaps solve the problems inherent with this anomalous unit whereby practice and procedure common to RAF operational units i(like the QCS) is laid aside the better to follow its own agendas, personal or organisational.
I can see that it is harder to justify the red Arrows now, they do have quite a fan following though, if you read the enthusiasts sites you'll see that. Personally, while clinging to air shows, having had them instilled in my memory over decades, I would perhaps, if necessary, look to replace the Red Arrows with more in the line of operational demonstrations. They may not be too realistic from a crew point of view, but would at least present what the RAF get up to before the public, albeit condensed onto a tiny stage like Fairford or wherever. I was never to keen on gaudy colours, like the Typhoon solo display paint schemes and of course, "the Reds" .

FB

[Herod]

Chug: If you want to recruit, then invest more in the Air Cadets ​​​​​​​ Well said. The cadets I come across do themselves, and the RAF proud.

[Two's in]

Interesting how some people think an approach for some type of social intercourse by a commissioned officer to an enlisted team member is appropriate under any circumstances. 1960 did indeed call.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

I can see that it is harder to justify the red Arrows now, they do have quite a fan following though, if you read the enthusiasts sites you'll see that. Personally, while clinging to air shows, having had them instilled in my memory over decades, I would perhaps, if necessary, look to replace the Red Arrows with more in the line of operational demonstrations. They may not be too realistic from a crew point of view, but would at least present what the RAF get up to before the public, albeit condensed onto a tiny stage like Fairford or wherever. I was never to keen on gaudy colours, like the Typhoon solo display paint schemes and of course, "the Reds" .

FB

Will we?

The impression I get is that the keen aviation / air show "enthusiasts" in the UK are not particular fans of the Red Arrows. Yes, they have a considerable popular appeal amongst the more casual / occasional air show attendees and general public. Those that get to see some of the other national jet formation teams from around the world often seem to rank the Red Arrows in fourth or fifth place, particularly in more recent years.

[stevef]

Will we?

The impression I get is that the keen aviation / air show "enthusiasts" in the UK are not particular fans of the Red Arrows. Yes, they have a considerable popular appeal amongst the more casual / occasional air show attendees and general public. Those that get to see some of the other national jet formation teams from around the world often seem to rank the Red Arrows in fourth or fifth place, particularly in more recent years.

The last air show I attended (work circumstances, late last century), me and two workmates stayed in the beer tent when the Arrows were displaying. They do do nothing for me, like glossy supermodels.
We ambled outside to watch Sally B and Plane Sailing's Catalina though.
​​​​​​​

[Finningley Boy]

Will we?

The impression I get is that the keen aviation / air show "enthusiasts" in the UK are not particular fans of the Red Arrows. Yes, they have a considerable popular appeal amongst the more casual / occasional air show attendees and general public. Those that get to see some of the other national jet formation teams from around the world often seem to rank the Red Arrows in fourth or fifth place, particularly in more recent years.
TF,

I used to be a member of UKAR, I'm not suggesting all have same outlook, but I do recall a healthy degree of support for the team in particular. There was a faction, a seemingly sizeable one, which got into a lather of concern whenever there was any negative circumstances surrounding them. I'm sure many like yourself, and me perhaps, who feel that the Red Arrows are not the team they were in the late '60s and early '70s, looking at some old photos and film reveal the difference. However, this isn't the fault of the current or recent teams, simply the growing litigious times we live in and genuine concern for the likelihood of tragedy. That said, all things considered, there was only one serious incident I can recall from that era during the work up in early 1971 which was especially bad. I once compared old photos which appeared in the Jersey local paper advertising the St Helier air show, with photos I'd taken recently over the same area of similar manoeuvres, the difference is a real eye opener!

FB

PS As for team rankings, I long ago placed the Italian team in first place ahead of the competition, they stay there now even though they've modified their own sequence to cut out the most impressive manoeuvre, splitting the formation to various points around the airfield then returning to pass, seemingly erratically, in the centre from all directions.

[alfred_the_great]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x1947/c5306b38_30c1_4e9d_99de_c4966f55a5f0_99c26bff19acf3005d3118b db676ff06404b6841.jpeg

[Exrigger]

It would seem another one has gone:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11453943/Red-Arrows-commander-suspended-amid-probe-relationship-colleague.html

[langleybaston]

It would seem another one has gone:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11453943/Red-Arrows-commander-suspended-amid-probe-relationship-colleague.html

If true [I stress "if"] then chain of command needs to give serious thought to immediate grounding of the team. I say that because their state of mind absolutely cannot be 100% clear of the towering inferno that the team has become.

Accident history reports in recent years have blamed state of mind/ stress etc as contributory causes.

Once again IF TRUE of course.

[Finningley Boy]

Regardless, even if someone is charged with an offence, which has yet to happen, I still don't see why the team's future should be in question, or will we see a corporate charge of cad like behaviour being issued?

FB

Let me apologise in advance to those who will likely find my honest opinion unacceptable, but there we are.

[Flugplatz]

Jeez, just disband these scumbag clowns already!

[RAFEngO74to09]

(3) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "Another huge blow for the @rafredarrows on @ChiefofAirStaff's watch - the commander of the Red Arrows has been removed from post pending an investigation into an alleged relationship with a junior team member, @MarkNicolDM of @DailyMailUK reports https://t.co/WtJ8ZZJzp2" / Twitter

[langleybaston]

Jeez, just disband these scumbag clowns already!

I think that is O T T ................... lots of excellent people in the team, a few bad apples. However, I cannot see good coming if flying displays continue in the short term.
Take a break, people, go on gardening leave until a considered decision and solution is made by the grown-ups [if any] among the Airships.
What a bloody mess.

[oxenos]

I agree. I cannot see that the atmosphere surrounding the remaining team is conducive to safe flying.

[Old_Slartibartfast]

This must be a point when the "bringing the service into disrepute" principle kicks in, isn't it?

There would seem to be an opportunity during the display off-season to take appropriate action, and come up with a plan for next year, perhaps a scaled down team, or even taking a year out until things are sorted.

[NutLoose]

I probably agree, time to bin them, at least for a season, possibly longer, the crews could be better employed elsewhere, they are not exactly ambassadors anymore with the baggage they now come with and who wants to buy Hawks these days.

Not exactly a glowing endorsement for the team is it.

It has been revealed male officers bombarded female colleagues with requests for sexual favours and made inappropriate advances, often when drunk. When they were refused they frequently became abusive.

[cynicalint]

Wg Cdr Montenegro suspended.
Bit sensational and probably over the top, from 5 years ago, and it's only while the investigation continues. Seems no-one complained though....

The top commander of the Red Arrows has been suspended from his post while an alleged relationship with a junior member of his team is investigated. Wing Commander David Montenegro, a father of two, was suspended from the aerobatic team on Monday. Details of the affair, which allegedly resulted in the junior colleague’s pregnancy, were first reported in the Daily Mail.
Mr Montenegro reportedly met the female corporal in 2017 when he had two sons with a woman he went on to marry. The affair with his colleague apparently lasted a year, during which time he held the position of “Red One”, the most senior pilot within the squadron, while the corporal was allegedly a member of the ground crew. As an Officer Commanding Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team, Mr Montenegro would have been in charge of the Arrows’ aircrews and ground staff. The female corporal has reportedly since left the RAF.
The RAF was said to be concerned that the relationship would have compromised the effectiveness of the squadron and there is no suggestion that he abused or harassed the woman.


I personally think the investigation could well be compromised by recent events. Maybe the Wg Cdr has been scapegoated?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/21/red-arrows-top-commander-suspended-amid-probe-claims-affair/

[meleagertoo]

How is it that every manjack and his wife in the rest of society is allowed, nay encouraged to perform every kind of act imaginable having adopted a multiturde more gender identities than most can imagine and self identifying as an improbable number of other things and it's a herecy worthy of de-platforming, attitude re-assignment punishments and even dismissal even to question this ludicrous 'orthodoxy' - yet the poor Reds get crucified for doing the consuensual thing that standard-issue men and women have been doing since the dawn of time...

I call this witch-hunt, for that's what it is, it outrageously prejudiced, and as it's always the man that gets punished it's clearly utterly sexist misandry - and thus utterly illegal and immoral, surely?

[Finningley Boy]

Reading the above post suggests there is something of a snowball effect now. If this matter was isolated we'd probably here nought about it.

FB

[rattman]

The RAF has a **** they need they fix, seems like a waste of people and resources for no gain.

Disband, get house sorted, then reinstate them later

[Barksdale Boy]

I will just say this: I met David Montenegro at a ceremony in Hong Kong on the 29th of October 2016. He came across. to me at least, as a courteous, thoughtful and dedicated man who was a credit to his unit, to my former service and to his country.

[hunterboy]

I think we have to ask ourselves what we want an RAF Officer /Red Arrow to be ? Should we expect them to have the same values as a UK politician, a member of the public or a monk perhaps? If we expect them to be honourable, upstanding chaps/chappesses, that’s fair enough. But maybe we should expect the same from the senior leadership, and politicians too?

[alfred_the_great]

I think we have to ask ourselves what we want an RAF Officer /Red Arrow to be ? Should we expect them to have the same values as a UK politician, a member of the public or a monk perhaps? If we expect them to be honourable, upstanding chaps/chappesses, that’s fair enough. But maybe we should expect the same from the senior leadership, and politicians too?

ah, whatabouttery…

now we are scraping the barrel in defence of the Red Arrows.

FWIW, I cannot possibly believe it’s safe for the remaining pilots to fly for an entirely optional activity (displays) in their current format.

disperse the team, reset - practically and ethically - and try again next year.

[dctyke]

FFS, the Cpl ended up pregnant. Not a mention of this in folks defence of our super heroes.

[Brain Potter]

Whether or not he broke the ‘service test, wouldn’t the bigger issue be the clear failures of leadership that occurred in recent years?

[Woodsy2417]

This current situation meets all the definition of a tragedy for the Reds and it brings me no joy, I have respected and enjoyed their skill and precision since the 1960's. I feel sorry for the Reds of earlier generations who built the reputation of the team for excellence which is now being tarnished. I am afraid that only the excision of those clearly proved culpable will save the day for the team. If the team is disbanded- as some have suggested- I cannot see it ever being reformed, politics and economics will come in to play. They need to work through the current difficulties and be transparent about the changes and reforms they have made.

[WillNorris81]

Two consenting adults have had a year long relationship that involved consensual sex that results in a pregnancy and subsequently sadly a miscarriage. Neither married, and no one’s business if the chain of command code hasn’t been broken. As she was an engineer and he wasn’t OC at the time, he wouldn’t have been in her chain of command.
Its 2022 folks, the world has thankfully moved on with its moral judgement.

[4everAD]

It's been a 2-tier RAF for years, FJ pilots in particular treated differently to the rest in respect of behaviours (sexual/alcohol/high-jinks etc.). Bearing in mind the majority of those in positions of power in the RAF are ex-pilots themselves then it can come as no surprise to them what has been un-earthed recently??

[LateArmLive]

It's been a 2-tier RAF for years, FJ pilots in particular treated differently to the rest in respect of behaviours (sexual/alcohol/high-jinks etc.). Bearing in mind the majority of those in positions of power in the RAF are ex-pilots themselves then it can come as no surprise to them what has been un-earthed recently??

Salt with your chip? These issues are endemic within our society. I can think of plenty of misconduct cases within the SH world off the top of my head - FJ pilots are treated no differently when they screw up (and quite rightly so). Army and Navy are no different.

[4everAD]

No chips here (I'm not a pilot of any flavour), I have however worked/deployed with loads and seen first-hand dubious behaviours 'accepted/ignored' by the CoC, hence my comment that surely none of this is a surprise to anyone, especially CAS?

[Old_Slartibartfast]

Whilst I've very much enjoyed the Red Arrows for many years, and thought that they were fantastic ambassadors for the whole of the UK, as well as the RAF, I'm beginning to wonder whether, in these cash-strapped times, they are value for money. I can't help at look at what the cost of running the team for a season might do if directed at helping Ukraine, for example. Yes, it would a great loss if they stopped performing for a time, but everyone in the UK is being asked to make cuts for the next two or three years, the country is essentially broke and there are more important things we need to spend our defence budget on.

I'm not suggesting they be permanently scrapped, just stood down for a time and the money redirected to where it might be better value to the taxpayer. Perhaps the team could then be re-instated when the country's finances are in better shape and the defence budget isn't being so heavily squeezed. This furlough period could be used to plan how to re-invent the team, address some of the issues that have plagued them in recent times and come back with a team that is as good, or better, than the existing one.

[Speedywheels]

If the team is disbanded- as some have suggested- I cannot see it ever being reformed, politics and economics will come in to play. They need to work through the current difficulties and be transparent about the changes and reforms they have made.

I tend to agree and further exacerbated by operating an aircraft that is long in the tooth with no replacement identified.

[[email protected]]

operating an aircraft that is long in the tooth with no replacement identified SOP for the RAF now isn't it?

[CAEBr]

Quote:operating an aircraft that is long in the tooth with no replacement identified

SOP for the RAF now isn't it? It was, but the capability pause is more today's SOP ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

[cessnapete]

One can see a problem of “team cohesiveness” if members of the Formation Team are involved, as happened some years ago when two Red Team members were replaced/ resigned.
But delving into 2017 “private life events” seems crass..

[Baldeep Inminj]

One can see a problem of “team cohesiveness” if members of the Formation Team are involved, as happened some years ago when two Red Team members were replaced/ resigned.
But delving into 2017 “private life events” seems crass..

I must agree. I worked with the Reds for many years and it is clear to me that Wg Cdr Montenegro is being set up as a scapegoat. Did he fraternize with a junior rank against orders - I don't know, but it appears he may have done (yet to be proven). Against the rules...sure. However, if he is 'guilty', then so are dozens of former Red Arrows. In the 90's, pulling other guys wives was practically a rite of passage for the guys on the team. When the first female pilot joined the team she was the toast of breakfast TV and tabloids alike. Where were they when she had an affair with the boss? Silence. The hypocrisy around this team is legendary.

If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.

I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.

Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.

[LS8C1]

RAFAT won't go.
perception is reality. How will it look to Russia / China / insert other potential adversary when we admit we cant afford / justify a display team when the French / Italians etc are seemingly going strong.

I'd be willing to say most people on this forum have some sort of interest in RAFAT / military aviation-We aviators seem to think the world revolves around us and nothing else matters, hence we read into these articles as if it's the be all and end all. But guess what? The general public care more for who is doing well in Strictly, or players not wearing LGBT armbands in the World Cup. They might see an article in the daily mail about a bloke in a red suit sleeping with someone who works for him, but will then forget it a few days later when they see a cool picture of an A380 with some shiny red jets and smoke next to it flying past the Burj Khalifa.
All the residents of the Gulf states (and our politicians) care about is the solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world, and just because an aviation geek thinks disbanding them would solve the T1 problem or an ex SAC tech once missed out on his Pax trip in 1993 because red'x' fancied the pretty air trafficker he met in the bar the night before and took her flying instead will not be at the forefront of a cabinet minister's mind when he or she trying to get a trade deal with (insert obscure country) in 2024 and decides to send the reds as part of a deal sweetener.

[Just This Once...]

I think Monty is still there and he must have had 16 years+ away from the frontline flying Hawks, with a short break for Aussie staff college. He has spent around a decade in the Reds in that time, so it really has been a flying club for him and I think his current stint as OC RAFAT has been extended too.

Who knew the Reds could be a dedicated career.

I guess my post back in June on the other RAFAT thread has aged like fine milk.

[beardy]

solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world


​​​​​​I know it's difficult to quantify, but I think that is overstating things somewhat. I also think that our potential enemies are more impressed by weapons' effectiveness than by a display team. No matter how skilful they are they don't really add to deterrence.

[LS8C1]

​​​​​​I know it's difficult to quantify, but I think that is overstating things somewhat. I also think that our potential enemies are more impressed by weapons' effectiveness than by a display team. No matter how skilful they are they don't really add to deterrence.

You are right, not in themselves, but the fact we have a combat airforce AND a 9 ship display team goes some way toward the perception of defence in depth (perception being the key).

[MPN11]

You are right, not in themselves, but the fact we have a combat airforce AND a 9 ship display team goes some way toward the perception of defence in depth (perception being the key).
I'm not sure that a ‘perception of defence in depth’ is generated by 9/7/6 obsolete jets performing at air shows. I suspect Allies, Partners and Opponents have better metrics on which to base their judgements.

[Old_Slartibartfast]

I must agree. I worked with the Reds for many years and it is clear to me that Wg Cdr Montenegro is being set up as a scapegoat. Did he fraternize with a junior rank against orders - I don't know, but it appears he may have done (yet to be proven). Against the rules...sure. However, if he is 'guilty', then so are dozens of former Red Arrows. In the 90's, pulling other guys wives was practically a rite of passage for the guys on the team. When the first female pilot joined the team she was the toast of breakfast TV and tabloids alike. Where were they when she had an affair with the boss? Silence. The hypocrisy around this team is legendary.

If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.

I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.

Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.

It's not just the Reds. I worked at various weapons ranges over the years and one universal truth was that ANY FJ visiting detachment would do two things, shag any local lass that was up for it and most probably wreck at least one pub bar. Paying out reimbursement for damages to local pubs was part and parcel of the range operating costs. At least one landlord used to make a point of asking for advance warning of any FJ detachment so he could warn some of the local lasses in advance, in the hope that they might not end up doing something whilst under the influence that they later regretted. The landlord at my local once tried to get the cost of his wrecked piano reimbursed, after a particularly raucous detachment had stayed there, and he got mightily hacked off when it was suggested that he'd already claimed for damage several times in the past and should have just barred them.

[Bob Viking]

Something doesn’t add up with your last post. I have dropped/fired weapons at numerous AWRs around the UK but not once did we land in the local vicinity in order to shag and booze our way around the local hostelries. We tended to pitch up, do our weapons stuff and fly away home.

BV

[Old_Slartibartfast]

Something doesn’t add up with your last post. I have dropped/fired weapons at numerous AWRs around the UK but not once did we land in the local vicinity in order to shag and booze our way around the local hostelries. We tended to pitch up, do our weapons stuff and fly away home.

BV


We had regular visiting detachments at West Freugh when I was there in the 90's. The Harrier detachments, in particular, shone out as being most likely to attract claims from local landlords. Some of those landlords were undoubtedly chancers (like the owner of The Crown in Portpatrick), but most were fairly honest. Very common to have detachments stay for around a week at a time back then.

[LS8C1]

I'm not sure that a ‘perception of defence in depth’ is generated by 9/7/6 obsolete jets performing at air shows. I suspect Allies, Partners and Opponents have better metrics on which to base their judgements.

If it was just about airshows, they'd have gone ages ago.

[MPN11]

If it was just about airshows, they'd have gone ages ago.
Sorry, I forgot "Showing the Flag". Was there anything else?

[dctyke]

Throughout this I’ve often thought what was the Sqn WO doing, I take it they have one? If he didn’t have the balls to put one or two right whether in his office or theirs he didn’t deserve the rank and status.

[LS8C1]

Sorry, I forgot "Showing the Flag". Was there anything else?

You've just answered your own question.

RAFAT applications have just opened for the 2024 season. I don't think they're going anywhere too soon.

[Bob Viking]

I’d forgotten about West Freugh and I’ve stayed at the Crown myself (as a Tucano student). You made it sound like it happened at every range. I can’t think of any others where people might stay for a prolonged period. I won’t count dets to St Athan for Pembrey since an RSO wouldn’t be in the same postcode.

BV

[Old_Slartibartfast]

I’d forgotten about West Freugh and I’ve stayed at the Crown myself (as a Tucano student). You made it sound like it happened at every range. I can’t think of any others where people might stay for a prolonged period. I won’t count dets to St Athan for Pembrey since an RSO wouldn’t be in the same postcode.

BV


My recollection of the Tucano studes is that they were pretty well behaved. IIRC, one of them was quite an accomplished piano player, and used to attract quite an audience in the restaurant at the back when staying there. The owner of the place, Curly Wilson, ended up getting arrested, not sure what for. Strange bloke, as I stayed at the Crown for around a month when I first arrived at WF in November 1992, tried to negotiate a reduced rate to stay there whilst I sorted out buying a house (once my 30 night subsistence allowance was up) and he point blank refused, so I rented a cottage in the village that was within the lodging allowance amount. After a lock-in at the Crown one night (after I'd moved out), Curly got seriously pissed when I asked him to unlock the door so I could get home. The bugger thought I was still staying there and paying full him whack. He complained that he had loads of empty rooms that winter, serves him right for not cutting me a deal.

[Finningley Boy]

I must agree. I worked with the Reds for many years and it is clear to me that Wg Cdr Montenegro is being set up as a scapegoat. Did he fraternize with a junior rank against orders - I don't know, but it appears he may have done (yet to be proven). Against the rules...sure. However, if he is 'guilty', then so are dozens of former Red Arrows. In the 90's, pulling other guys wives was practically a rite of passage for the guys on the team. When the first female pilot joined the team she was the toast of breakfast TV and tabloids alike. Where were they when she had an affair with the boss? Silence. The hypocrisy around this team is legendary.

If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.

I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.

Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.
Mr Inminj,

Do you really think all the problems you've listed can be helped by even the smallest degree by disbanding the Red Arrows? Everything to do with prestige and public image regarding HM Forces has taken a right good pasting continuously over the decades. The Royal Tournament has gone, there is no longer a ceremonial guard posted at Edinburgh Castle, it sounds like a tenuous link, but the disappearance of all these things are part of the same bean counting mindset. Eventually, there will be nothing to present publicly anywhere in any format. The armed forces, trust me, will be, by modern comparison, truly invisible. Recruitment will evaporate, apart from those recruited from abroad. The less sympathetic and more ignorant elements of the population will ask why do we waste money on such luxuries as the armed forces? this'll be the upshot, especially once the current caper in Ukraine is water under the bridge. Like the man said, you don't know what you've got until its gone. Public visibility, even if its fabricated, as it often is, pays its way.

FB

FB

[langleybaston]

Mr Inminj,

Do you really think all the problems you've listed can be helped by even the smallest degree by disbanding the Red Arrows? Everything to do with prestige and public image regarding HM Forces has taken a right good pasting continuously over the decades. The Royal Tournament has gone, there is no longer a ceremonial guard posted at Edinburgh Castle, it sounds like a tenuous link, but the disappearance of all these things are part of the same bean counting mindset. Eventually, there will be nothing to present publicly anywhere in any format. The armed forces, trust me, will be, by modern comparison, truly invisible. Recruitment will evaporate, apart from those recruited from abroad. The less sympathetic and more ignorant elements of the population will ask why do we waste money on such luxuries as the armed forces? this'll be the upshot, especially once the current caper in Ukraine is water under the bridge. Like the man said, you don't know what you've got until its gone. Public visibility, even if its fabricated, as it often is, pays its way.

FB

FB

I rather thought the funerals of Prince Philip and HM the Queen were mighty examples of the intrinsic excellence and discipline and delivery of the armed forces with massive spectator/ audience exposure
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?

[meleagertoo]

I rather thought the funerals of Prince Philip and HM the Queen were mighty examples of the intrinsic excellence and discipline and delivery of the armed forces with massive spectator/ audience exposure
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?

Thank God we have such sanctimonious, technically bankrupt, self-righteous, opinionated, blinkered media-led anti-everything pompous dinosaurs to 'support' our armed services.

NOT.

What a disgraceful post.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Thank God we have such sanctimonious, technically bankrupt, self-righteous, opinionated, blinkered media-led anti-everything pompous dinosaurs to 'support' our armed services.

NOT.

What a disgraceful post.
Some of your remarks do strike a chord. Daily Mail causing damage by reporting old news that had been investigated a long time ago. Not the whole story either , but putting the RAF in a situation they cannot dismiss. Typical Daily Mail readers response. Got a mate on RAFAT and they are just so pissed off by the relentless bull.

[langleybaston]

Thank God we have such sanctimonious, technically bankrupt, self-righteous, opinionated, blinkered media-led anti-everything pompous dinosaurs to 'support' our armed services.

NOT.

What a disgraceful post.
Surely my last point, repeated for your benefit [you were blinded by rage by then] is valid?

However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

This current situation meets all the definition of a tragedy for the Reds and it brings me no joy, I have respected and enjoyed their skill and precision since the 1960's. I feel sorry for the Reds of earlier generations who built the reputation of the team for excellence which is now being tarnished. I am afraid that only the excision of those clearly proved culpable will save the day for the team. If the team is disbanded- as some have suggested- I cannot see it ever being reformed, politics and economics will come in to play. They need to work through the current difficulties and be transparent about the changes and reforms they have made.

Indeed but there have been plenty of rumours and stories along the current lines going right back to the days when they flew Gnats. The difference being it was easier and sadly more acceptable to sweep it all under the carpet back then. Not that they wouldn't have tried even now! However a combination of social media and more enlightened attitudes has made that far harder, although I suspect there is more still to emerge.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

I rather thought the funerals of Prince Philip and HM the Queen were mighty examples of the intrinsic excellence and discipline and delivery of the armed forces with massive spectator/ audience exposure
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?

Thank God we have such sanctimonious, technically bankrupt, self-righteous, opinionated, blinkered media-led anti-everything pompous dinosaurs to 'support' our armed services.

NOT.

What a disgraceful post.

Disgraceful ????

No, far from it. Inconvenient maybe but it seems to hit the nail on the head perfectly!

[Finningley Boy]

I rather thought the funerals of Prince Philip and HM the Queen were mighty examples of the intrinsic excellence and discipline and delivery of the armed forces with massive spectator/ audience exposure
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
I hope we don't rely on deaths within the Royal Family to provide the opportunity to show HM Forces off in public.

FB

[Flugplatz]

RAFAT won't go.
perception is reality. How will it look to Russia / China / insert other potential adversary when we admit we cant afford / justify a display team when the French / Italians etc are seemingly going strong.

I'd be willing to say most people on this forum have some sort of interest in RAFAT / military aviation-We aviators seem to think the world revolves around us and nothing else matters, hence we read into these articles as if it's the be all and end all. But guess what? The general public care more for who is doing well in Strictly, or players not wearing LGBT armbands in the World Cup. They might see an article in the daily mail about a bloke in a red suit sleeping with someone who works for him, but will then forget it a few days later when they see a cool picture of an A380 with some shiny red jets and smoke next to it flying past the Burj Khalifa.
All the residents of the Gulf states (and our politicians) care about is the solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world, and just because an aviation geek thinks disbanding them would solve the T1 problem or an ex SAC tech once missed out on his Pax trip in 1993 because red'x' fancied the pretty air trafficker he met in the bar the night before and took her flying instead will not be at the forefront of a cabinet minister's mind when he or she trying to get a trade deal with (insert obscure country) in 2024 and decides to send the reds as part of a deal sweetener.

And so the 'untouchable' toxic mind-set is perpetuated...utterly cynical "no one cares as long as they get a shiny display / flog military kit to a dodgy country.
What is being forgotten is that real people, many of them junior, have been suffering in the team for several years and have been too frightened to come forward; not thinking they would be listened to, or thrown out of the team. These are allegations of bullying, misogyny, assault, sexual harassment and drunkenness - going right to the top with several officers already leaving, one voluntarily due to the 'toxic' culture. The rate they are being moved-on/dismissed it looks like the team will disband itself!
Does this team really represent the best of the RAF? is that what we are trying to sell abroad?

[Big Unit Specialist]

Having worked with the Reds over a good number of years I would opine that they are selected to fit in and for the most part become carbon copies of the dominant members of the team; they believe their own hype and behave accordingly. I have witnessed good guys come in to the team and turn into utter twats in a short space of time. What needs to be done? Someone needs to show a bit of leadership and grip them firmly if they are to remain worthwhile ambassadors for the RAF.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

And so the 'untouchable' toxic mind-set is perpetuated...utterly cynical "no one cares as long as they get a shiny display / flog military kit to a dodgy country.
What is being forgotten is that real people, many of them junior, have been suffering in the team for several years and have been too frightened to come forward; not thinking they would be listened to, or thrown out of the team. These are allegations of bullying, misogyny, assault, sexual harassment and drunkenness - going right to the top with several officers already leaving, one voluntarily due to the 'toxic' culture. The rate they are being moved-on/dismissed it looks like the team will disband itself!
Does this team really represent the best of the RAF? is that what we are trying to sell abroad?

Exactly this ^^^^^^

[NutLoose]

Perhaps the one that left citing the "Toxic" culture Squadron Leader Nick Critchell would have been the ideal person to promote and put in charge of the team.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Perhaps the one that left citing the "Toxic" culture Squadron Leader Nick Critchell would have been the ideal person to promote and put in charge of the team.

Indeed.

Which sadly makes it almost certain not to happen!

[Krystal n chips]

Indeed but there have been plenty of rumours and stories along the current lines going right back to the days when they flew Gnats. The difference being it was easier and sadly more acceptable to sweep it all under the carpet back then. Not that they wouldn't have tried even now! However a combination of social media and more enlightened attitudes has made that far harder, although I suspect there is more still to emerge.

Indeed albeit more related to their perceived elite status.

Valley got a call one year urgently asking for bodies to help with their winter servicing / Minors etc. Off some of us went. Get to L.Riss and " who are you and what are you doing here ? "....it would have been useful to inform L.Riss before we arrived, off to Kemble...enter their eng crew room only to be told this is for Reds only, you use 4Sqdn's...then allocated to aircraft...not a Red engineer in sight or helping during our stay....which was cut short once Valley were aware. .

Also had a habit of pitching up at Valley with a load of u/s brakes and wheels whereupon they simply depleted our own stock leaving the Bay with a lot of work to service theirs and keep our own stocks at the usual levels.

As for disbanding, the outcry wouldn't come, having listened to many conversations, from the enthusiasts, but from the many event organisers for whom their appearance is a big draw for the general public

[Asturias56]

for most of the Great British Public the Reds ARE the RAF - they know nothing about F35's, A400's or the million other things the RAF does. Like Concorde they are more a symbol than anything else. There'd be murder if someone suggested killing them off.

[dervish]

There'd be murder if someone suggested killing them off.

An unfortunate choice of words there A56. They've killed off quite enough of their own.

[Finningley Boy]

On a more positive note, Ray Hanna's original red flying suit and green flying jacket will be going up for auction this year, I believe on 26 November live auction at 21:30hrs. His Daughter, Sarah, found them recently and handed them to an outfit called Aerobility for the afore mentioned purpose. I should imagine they'll go for quite a fortune. If anyone's interested in making a bid contact 07952 628625.

FB

[mahogany bob]

BLAND

The RAF I knew was full of eccentrics- aircrew who lived life to the full ,loved flying and worked ,when necessary,24/7

A can do attitude prevailed,squadron morale was high- and the Reds ( love them or hate them) were admired (and envied) by us all. Their skill acquired by HARD WEEKEND WORK was the envy of all who love aviation. They were ,and still are,the stars of the show and most of us would love to have been good enough to be selected for THE team.

Everyone knew that they were prima donnas but no one really cared a stuff! It was all part of a healthy inter unit rivalry.

They are the envy of other forces and endlessly ,with their faultless displays ,show the RAF off at its best.

Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?

[ORAC]

You can keep going when you are respected - when they laugh at you, you are finished..

https://twitter.com/raf_luton/status/1595469028105064449?s=61&t=8KW99O_wZXIjhOvyCfYg3w
​​​​​​​

[t43562]

BLAND
Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?
Not that this matters but I find this reminds me a lot of the 3rd world that I come from - where rules and standards apply only to the hoi polloi. It's almost the classic response to accusations of corruption back there: "they" (meaning politicians or connected businessmen etc) are too important to have to obey the law, let alone common decencies.

[mahogany bob]

t 43562

A TOTALLY irrelevant reply !!

[langleybaston]

t 43562

A TOTALLY irrelevant reply !!

I disagree, probably because I understand the reply's relevance.

[Finningley Boy]

I disagree, probably because I understand the reply's relevance.
Yes, I understand the point about third world relevance, however, I don't think that fully applies here. If it did, there'd likely be no series of sackings, suspensions and all the rest of it. That said, on a more positive note, if I may, Ray Hanna's Daughter has put her dad's original red flying suit and green flying jacket up for auction on 26 November, through an outfit called Aerobility. Contact Hebe Weir on 07592 628625 if you would like to place a bid, I reckon though it'll fetch quite hefty amount.

FB

[meleagertoo]

If they disband the Reds for politically (in)correct brainwashed reasons (or any other) they'll be gone for good.
They'd never return - they'd be consigned to history and hangars at Colerne and with it a vital and intrinsic part of Britain's 'soft power' as great as the loss of the Royal yacht.
In other words a stupendously irresponsible, short-sighted self-inflicted disaster for the image of this nation of the eyes of the world.

[H Peacock]

RAFAT applications have just opened for the 2024 season.

Great odds these days if you’re a FJ driver; with an IPS of 30 or so, that’s a 10% chance of getting yourself a nice red flyingsuit!

[charliegolf]

In other words a stupendously irresponsible, short-sighted self-inflicted disaster for the image of this nation of the eyes of the world.

Are you referring to any decision to disband; or to the behaviour of the team members?

CG

[langleybaston]

If they disband the Reds for politically (in)correct brainwashed reasons (or any other) they'll be gone for good.
They'd never return - they'd be consigned to history and hangars at Colerne and with it a vital and intrinsic part of Britain's 'soft power' as great as the loss of the Royal yacht.
In other words a stupendously irresponsible, short-sighted self-inflicted disaster for the image of this nation of the eyes of the world.

The "image of this nation" is indeed sadly diminished but our intervention [led by BoJo as a statesman making one of his better decisions] in Ukraine surely outweighs the image presented by a fragnmented team, one of whom left for noble reasons, and several who left or are leaving for appalling behaviour.

Ben Wallace is working his socks off and doing a great job with finite resources and Treasury parsimony. He does not need intangible soft power to confront Putin's blood stained sledgehammer.

If the Reds are grounded for safety reasons [as I argue] they may deserve to come back when we can afford them, and if they resolve to conform to 2022 standards.

[Diff Tail Shim]

The "image of this nation" is indeed sadly diminished but our intervention [led by BoJo as a statesman making one of his better decisions] in Ukraine surely outweighs the image presented by a fragnmented team, one of whom left for noble reasons, and several who left or are leaving for appalling behaviour.

Ben Wallace is working his socks off and doing a great job with finite resources and Treasury parsimony. He does not need intangible soft power to confront Putin's blood stained sledgehammer.

If the Reds are grounded for safety reasons [as I argue] they may deserve to come back when we can afford them, and if they resolve to conform to 2022 standards.
What is your knowledge of aerospace safety standards? Modern day standards? From an aerospace professional engineer. What are 2022 standards?

[langleybaston]

What is your knowledge of aerospace safety standards? Modern day standards? From an aerospace professional engineer. What are 2022 standards?

Para 1.4.1.4. of the Reds' fatal accident ejector seat enquiry, regarding aspects of pilot readiness to fly.

Whereas the enquiry decided that the pilot was "ready to fly", my doubts centre on the current Reds' very public predicament , jointly and severally. Given that what they do demands 100% attention, I fear for them in the present turmoil.

God forbid I come to say "told you so!"

[tucumseh]

Not that this matters but I find this reminds me a lot of the 3rd world that I come from - where rules and standards apply only to the hoi polloi. It's almost the classic response to accusations of corruption back there: "they" (meaning politicians or connected businessmen etc) are too important to have to obey the law, let alone common decencies.

Not sure why anyone would challenge this. It is MoD and Government's formal position that very senior officers cannot be wrong by virtue of their rank, and are not bound by legal obligations.

The most obvious case to most here is Chinook ZD576, but it was repeated again in the case of Jon Bayliss, the Red Arrows engineer killed in 2018.

As to hours worked, especially on additional duties, and the effect on safety, that was front and centre in the Bayliss case as well. The Reds are no longer allowed to work more than six consecutive days, an unheard of luxury to many in MoD. But I'd still prefer them to be allowed to concentrate on their day job, instead of making sandwiches and washing dishes. That applies to all aircrew.

[stevef]

But I'd still prefer them to be allowed to concentrate on their day job, instead of making sandwiches and washing dishes. That applies to all aircrew.
I'm genuinely interested in who should clean up after them. Does the RAF still have the Trade Assistant General group? I can't imagine airmen of any technical or admin trade being impressed by having to carry out domestic duties that are considered too menial for aircrew. Or perhaps catering staff and dish-washing machines should be allocated to squadron crewrooms?

[tucumseh]

I'm genuinely interested in who should clean up after them. Does the RAF still have the Trade Assistant General group? I can't imagine airmen of any technical or admin trade being impressed by having to carry out domestic duties that are considered too menial for aircrew. Or perhaps catering staff and dish-washing machines should be allocated to squadron crewrooms?

The report in question didn't offer any solutions, but in evidence one senior officer explained the reasoning - it was training for when they went abroad without the necessary support and had to fend for themselves. Implying some support was available at home, but not used, and that Circus weren't asked when away. The AOC confirmed he had sufficient staff at the Reds, but they weren't trained. Other more junior officers disagreed. The Panel made no attempt to resolve this internal dispute, leaving the AOC's words as the official line.

To clarify, one pilot (the accident pilot) had the responsibility for cleaning the kitchen, making sandwiches, and looking after IT. This was deemed onerous.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Red Arrows featured in conference on trust despite 'toxic culture' controversy | UK News | Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/red-arrows-featured-in-conference-on-trust-despite-toxic-culture-controversy-12754152)

[oldmansquipper]

The report in question didn't offer any solutions, but in evidence one senior officer explained the reasoning - it was training for when they went abroad without the necessary support and had to fend for themselves. Implying some support was available at home, but not used, and that Circus weren't asked when away. The AOC confirmed he had sufficient staff at the Reds, but they weren't trained. Other more junior officers disagreed. The Panel made no attempt to resolve this internal dispute, leaving the AOC's words as the official line.

To clarify, one pilot (the accident pilot) had the responsibility for cleaning the kitchen, making sandwiches, and looking after IT. This was deemed onerous.


Tuc, are you really saying they no longer have a personal ‘Batman’ to do these onerous tasks, old boy?

Whatever next?

sorry… I guess I should have said ‘batperson’

[oldmansquipper]

Red Arrows featured in conference on trust despite 'toxic culture' controversy | UK News | Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/red-arrows-featured-in-conference-on-trust-despite-toxic-culture-controversy-12754152)

I guess CAS will have made the judgement call…. 😱

[langleybaston]

Tuc, are you really saying they no longer have a personal ‘Batman’ to do these onerous tasks, old boy?

Whatever next?

sorry… I guess I should have said ‘batperson’

On arrival as a baby Metman, RAF Nicosia, 1961, nice OMQ in Comet Crescent, Dormant Commission as FO .......... my wife was asked "do you have batting organised?"

Not a clue, she well knew I was a respectable off-spinner and a stubborn number eight, short on runs, long on occupation of the crease.

Anyway, we inheritted the incumbent, who did a good job for little recompense plus NAAFI whisky [she was stealing it so I made it legal].

[Diff Tail Shim]

Para 1.4.1.4. of the Reds' fatal accident ejector seat enquiry, regarding aspects of pilot readiness to fly.

Whereas the enquiry decided that the pilot was "ready to fly", my doubts centre on the current Reds' very public predicament , jointly and severally. Given that what they do demands 100% attention, I fear for them in the present turmoil.

God forbid I come to say "told you so!"
Ejection Seat. Says it all.

[Ridger]

Good grief, what an anachronistic and expensive mess. I've always been sceptical of the oft quoted 'soft power' benefit but if they are deemed necessary, given they flew this season with a 7-ship, why not a more economically relevant 5-ship...

[cynicalint]

I refer you all to the Flight Safety film 'Distractions' starring Richard O'Sullivan. The principle held good then and holds good today. Social mores may have changed, but personal concerns are the same now as they were then. Flight safety comprises many factors, the least obvious will never be proven to prevent an incident, as accidents avoided can NEVER be attributed to any FS activity. Personal states-of-mind of each individual is paramount to safety, Langleybaston is right, if the working atmosphere is right, then operations will be right. That is a responsibility of command, if standards are ignored because of reputation, or reputation prevents effective standards being applied, flight safety will always be compromised. The biggest threat to flight safety, is the attitude that we are too good be affected by flight Safety, is dangerous. In the air, the RAFAT approach to safety is unsurpassed; however, in the support aspects, it would appear that some distractions have been ignored.

[T28B]

Esteemed colleagues, let us disagree without being disagreeable.
Carry on.

[Diff Tail Shim]

I refer you all to the Flight Safety film 'Distractions' starring Richard O'Sullivan. The principle held good then and holds good today. Social mores may have changed, but personal concerns are the same now as they were then. Flight safety comprises many factors, the least obvious will never be proven to prevent an incident, as accidents avoided can NEVER be attributed to any FS activity. Personal states-of-mind of each individual is paramount to safety, Langleybaston is right, if the working atmosphere is right, then operations will be right. That is a responsibility of command, if standards are ignored because of reputation, or reputation prevents effective standards being applied, flight safety will always be compromised. The biggest threat to flight safety, is the attitude that we are too good be affected by flight Safety, is dangerous. In the air, the RAFAT approach to safety is unsurpassed; however, in the support aspects, it would appear that some distractions have been ignored.
Distractions was filmed at Coltishall with Jaguars of 54 Sqn. Richard O'Sullivan wasn't in it.

[Diff Tail Shim]

I'm genuinely interested in who should clean up after them. Does the RAF still have the Trade Assistant General group? I can't imagine airmen of any technical or admin trade being impressed by having to carry out domestic duties that are considered too menial for aircrew. Or perhaps catering staff and dish-washing machines should be allocated to squadron crewrooms?
It is the 21st century. Most Officers I knew in the late 20th century knew what a broom was and how to use on if required. Most had to clean a uni house out to get their deposit back.

[Timelord]

This is not a question of having someone “who should clean up after them”, it is a question of highly trained and very expensive aircrew spending their time on administrative tasks that could easily be done by someone less highly trained and cheaper. This was identified as a factor in the accident in question and is a serious problem across the fast jet force(I can’t speak for other forces). As I have said elsewhere, the withdrawal of this sort of support has led to FJ aircrew regularly working 12++ hour days despite only flying 6-8/ hours a month. It is a major factor in pushing people out of the service. You could pay a couple of admin clerks and a cook / cleaner for decades for the cost of training one new pilot.

Anyway, this isn’t really the point of this thread!

[Mover1983]

Perhaps there is a need to bring back the ACHGD (Aircraft Hand General Duties), usually found painting curb stones or polishing door knobs!
At my selection board one such, bearing two good conduct stripes, said "Don't do it lad". I ignored his advice.

[Bob Viking]

It might not be the point of this thread but you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

The idea of returning from my many years of globe trotting to a UK flying job where that was what I would have been looking forward to was absolute anathema.

I know I keep saying money IS the answer (despite the party line) but the queep could largely be fixed for free and nobody is doing anything about it from what I can see and hear.

I keep relating the fact that I used to fly a knackered old aircraft and absolutely loved it and would have kept doing it until I retired. Nowadays our young crews have some truly world beating aircraft and they’re bored of it after 3-6 years. That should speak volumes if anyone was listening.

BV

[Professor Plum]

Another + 1 for what timelord said above.

I’m not a FJ person. It’s the same across other streams too.

[langleybaston]

Perhaps there is a need to bring back the ACHGD (Aircraft Hand General Duties), usually found painting curb stones or polishing door knobs!
At my selection board one such, bearing two good conduct stripes, said "Don't do it lad". I ignored his advice.

Please when were good conduct badges (chevron point up, lower left sleeve) last seen worn?
my LAC RAFVR father wore one on demob 1945

[alfred_the_great]

This is not a question of having someone “who should clean up after them”, it is a question of highly trained and very expensive aircrew spending their time on administrative tasks that could easily be done by someone less highly trained and cheaper. This was identified as a factor in the accident in question and is a serious problem across the fast jet force(I can’t speak for other forces). As I have said elsewhere, the withdrawal of this sort of support has led to FJ aircrew regularly working 12++ hour days despite only flying 6-8/ hours a month. It is a major factor in pushing people out of the service. You could pay a couple of admin clerks and a cook / cleaner for decades for the cost of training one new pilot.

Anyway, this isn’t really the point of this thread!

so why are they Officers? Make them Junior Aviators with an appropriate pay packet.

[Old_Slartibartfast]

so why are they Officers? Make them Junior Aviators with an appropriate pay packet.


Wasn't this a change made sometime in the early 1950's, that got rid of all non-commissioned pilots?

My late father-in-law was a non-commissioned pilot, trained at RAF Heany IIRC. Not long after joining he was commissioned, because of this policy change, I believe.

[MPN11]

This is not a question of having someone “who should clean up after them”, it is a question of highly trained and very expensive aircrew spending their time on administrative tasks that could easily be done by someone less highly trained and cheaper.
Which is why, in the 80s, a whole bunch of GD(ATC) officers went to do 'other things' to release expensive Aircrew into the wild [sorry, wide blue yonder]. A bunch of us ended doing Int, Arms Control, War Plans and Policy and other stuff. Pay Pilots extra, go and be a Pilot.

Support staff was always deemed a luxury by Establishment Reviews. Whata a mistaka to makea.

[Timelord]

so why are they Officers? Make them Junior Aviators with an appropriate pay packet.

Because they should be spending their time taking on huge responsibilities for multi million pound aircraft and the life or death of people on the ground. Not trying to source a printer cartridge or chasing up the sandwhich order.

[wiggy]

…But as I recall it wasn’t ones proficiency (or not) at procuring said cartridge or sandwich seen by the wheels as more of an indicator of one’s future potential than what you actually did in the day job?

[charliegolf]

If they are run that ragged do they grope, harass and/or impregnate junior ranks to de-stress? Asking for a barrister.

CG

[Old_Slartibartfast]

It gets complicated when you look at procurement of aircraft, though. I ran an aircraft procurement programme for a time. The most valuable contributions, bar none, came from the pilots, observers and engineers in the team. They had first hand experience of what was needed, and more importantly, what was key to ensuring the maximum number of cabs were serviceable under challenging operational conditions. They were, without any shadow of doubt, the most important people in the team.

Without their contribution key decisions would have been made 100% by the bean counters. They played a key role in addressing that imbalance, and arguing forcefully for the things they knew were key. Worth every penny of their training cost, just for that knowledge and experience. Also resulted in a tremendous amount of conflict, though, particularly when it came to affordability.

[Bergerie1]

It was the same in a Big Airline too.

[Lyneham Lad]

"Nibbled to death by ducks" as Air Clues articles used to say...

[langleybaston]

Which is why, in the 80s, a whole bunch of GD(ATC) officers went to do 'other things' to release expensive Aircrew into the wild [sorry, wide blue yonder]. A bunch of us ended doing Int, Arms Control, Water Plans and Policy and other stuff. Pay Pilots extra, go and be a Pilot.

Support staff was always deemed a luxury by Establishment Reviews. Whata a mistaka to makea.

Establishment Reviews always assumed that the station/ section was trying to pull a fast one, thus the only survival tactic was to try to pull a fast one.
In my little world a 24/7/356 Met Office needed 6 forecasters to keep one on duty permanently/ allow 30 minute handovers, 6 weeks leave, professional courses, often a lecturing commitment and [negligible] sick leave.
We usually got 5.6 forecasters, a totally false economy because gapping was unforgiveable [it NEVER EVER HAPPENED] so Joe Bloggs was sent from another station costing travel, subsistence and all the rest. Meanwhile Bloggs's station racked up so much potential "Long Hours Gratuity" for the survivors that a third station became involved to save the cost of paying out.
I know well that this does not fit the military model but illustrates that bean counters ruled then, rule now and make for inefficiencies and indeed safety hazards.

The only area that was cut a little slack was RAFG, simply because of the logistics of reinforcing from UK.

Establishers? I've shat them.

[beardy]

…But as I recall it wasn’t ones proficiency (or not) at procuring said cartridge or sandwich seen by the wheels as more of an indicator of one’s future potential than what you actually did in the day job?
I do believe that you have it in a nutshell

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

This time claiming to have evidence of the attempts to cover up......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11471075/RAF-sparks-fury-labelling-allegations-whistle-blower-sex-abuse-scandal-false.html

If true, then it is to be hoped that all those involved will be dismissed too.

[mahogany bob]

o Me

BLAND

The RAF I knew was full of eccentrics- aircrew who lived life to the full ,loved flying and worked ,when necessary,24/7

A can do attitude prevailed,squadron morale was high- and the Reds ( love them or hate them) were admired (and envied) by us all. Their skill acquired by HARD WEEKEND WORK was the envy of all who love aviation. They were ,and still are,the stars of the show and most of us would love to have been good enough to be selected for THE team.

Everyone knew that they were prima donna but no one really cared a stuff! It was all part of a healthy inter unit rivalry,

They are the envy of other forces and endlessly ,with their faultless displays ,show the RAF off at its best.

Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?

t43562

Not that this matters but I find this reminds me a lot of the 3rd world that I come from - where rules and standards apply only to the hoi polloi. It's almost the classic response to accusations of corruption back there: "they" (meaning politicians or connected businessmen etc) are too important to have to obey the law, let alone common decencies.

me

A TOTALLY irrelevant reply !!

Langleybastion

I disagree, probably because I understand the reply's relevance.



SO you compare the extremely bad behaviour of a couple of RA pilots with 3rd world CORRUPT politicians and businessmen !!

You can’t be serious!


Also LB what I find difficult to stomach is your constant biting criticism of the Reds -having never experienced in your warm met office the severe pressures and stress that they regularly experienced !


PS - reading todays papers ,which have opened other cans of worms, this sorry affair seems to have been handled extremely badly!

[mike rondot]

I wouldn’t worry about the future of the Red Arrows.
When I joined, we were lectured by a wise old cynic about the history and future of the RAF. Asked if he believed in the future of the Service, he told us “in your lifetimes, there will always be a Royal Air Force with Scampton, The Red Arrows, and *617 Squadron”. That was 1967.
* expletive.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

o Me

BLAND

The RAF I knew was full of eccentrics- aircrew who lived life to the full ,loved flying and worked ,when necessary,24/7

A can do attitude prevailed,squadron morale was high- and the Reds ( love them or hate them) were admired (and envied) by us all. Their skill acquired by HARD WEEKEND WORK was the envy of all who love aviation. They were ,and still are,the stars of the show and most of us would love to have been good enough to be selected for THE team.

Everyone knew that they were prima donna but no one really cared a stuff! It was all part of a healthy inter unit rivalry,

They are the envy of other forces and endlessly ,with their faultless displays ,show the RAF off at its best.

Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?

t43562

Not that this matters but I find this reminds me a lot of the 3rd world that I come from - where rules and standards apply only to the hoi polloi. It's almost the classic response to accusations of corruption back there: "they" (meaning politicians or connected businessmen etc) are too important to have to obey the law, let alone common decencies.

me

A TOTALLY irrelevant reply !!

Langleybastion

I disagree, probably because I understand the reply's relevance.



SO you compare the extremely bad behaviour of a couple of RA pilots with 3rd world CORRUPT politicians and businessmen !!

You can’t be serious!


Also LB what I find difficult to stomach is your constant biting criticism of the Reds -having never experienced in your warm met office the severe pressures and stress that they regularly experienced !


PS - reading todays papers ,which have opened other cans of worms, this sorry affair seems to have been handled extremely badly!

If only it were just "a couple". Stories along these lines go back literally decades but have always been swept under the carpet. Sadly I have no doubt the current ones would have been covered up too had it not been for the media exposure. Obviously I don't know exactly how true each individual allegation is but there seems little doubt that there has been serious issues for many, many years.

I am sorry but no work related "severe pressure and stress" justifies or excuse what has been alleged. I am appalled that anybody could thing it does.

I do however agree with your last line. In some ways covering up bad behaviour is as bad, if not worse, than the alleged behaviour itself. Could a senior officer doing so be charged with misconduct in a public office? That would certainly be possible with a similar scenario in the police.

Meanwhile the London Fire Brigade is getting a similar press

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63749444

I hope nobody is going to justify that in the same way!

[Krystal n chips]

o





PS - reading todays papers ,which have opened other cans of worms, this sorry affair seems to have been handled extremely badly!

Would that be in connection with the latest report in the Mail, or, this one about the LFB, given there's a very strong correlation...

London Fire Brigade institutionally misogynist and racist - report - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63749444)

[mahogany bob]

Kristal

it was from the daily mail - which I know is prone to exaggerate and spread false rumour !

[mahogany bob]

Thoughtful Flier

I am NOT trying to justify bad behaviour because of stress.

But I do think that people who are able to handle constant stress ie the Arrows are unlikely to be the quiet reserved type and are possibly prone to over exuberant ( stupid ) behaviour !

Over the years at flying display socials and the Akrotiri OM I experienced at first hand examples of the Reds getting up peoples noses. They particularly seemed to have a dislike of ‘Heavy ‘crews - Ie us!

We were quite able to ignore them and on occasion have a stand up discussion ( row)with them - I guess that WRAFS -who usually were not shrinking violets - should have been able to do the same if they were on the wrong end of unwelcome attention / abuse!

However most of us just treated them as controllable ,boastful and at times juvenile social prats and were still able to appreciate their skills in the air and give them SOME slack!

[oldmansquipper]

The whole thing is meejah driven, for sure. However, the ability of VSOs to avoid responsibility for their actions is legend, and as we have seen recently, is ongoing.

Red Arrows? Look, when a ‘Harrier mate’ calls them a bunch of Prima Donnas, you KNOW there’s a problem.

but…..There is, apparently, no magic bullet.

[Chugalug2]

In some ways covering up bad behaviour is as bad, if not worse, than the alleged behaviour itself. Could a senior officer doing so be charged with misconduct in a public office? That would certainly be possible with a similar scenario in the police.
Meanwhile the London Fire Brigade is getting a similar press
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63749444
I hope nobody is going to justify that in the same way!
I rather think that the RAF Star Chamber might, TF, especially if 'bad behaviour' involves its own membership. The default action has always been to scapegoat juniors, be they JOs, SOs, or even 1*s. Certainly that was the DS solution to VSO induced unairworthiness infecting the UK military airfleets that led directly to so many avoidable airworthiness related fatal air accidents, the most notorious being of course Mull but including many others featured in this very forum. I would agree with you that if anything the ensuing cover up is worse than the initial illegal/improper actions that it protects. It means that the urgent need for reform is also covered up and thus remains stillborn.

The solution for airworthiness is to make Air Regulation and Accident Investigation independent of the operator (aka the MOD) and of each other. The solution for the Reds, and any other such anomalous units, is to disband them and post the occupants back into the 'normal' RAF, be it to FTSs or front-line squadrons. All my personal opinion of course, others may well disagree....

[langleybaston]

[QUOTE=mahogany bob;11337637]Thoughtful Flier

I am NOT trying to justify bad behaviour because of stress.

But I do think that people who are able to handle constant stress ie the Arrows are unlikely to be the quiet reserved type

I know one swallow does not make a summer, but Cheshire VC flew some 100 missions, the later ones as OC 617, and some as Pathfinder Master. The accumulative stress must be beyond mere mortals' imagination. At a crude guess, between 500 and 1000 hours, mostly at night, in all weathers, in crowded skies and subject to every attempt by a clever enemy to kill him.
I have never seen a hint of Red behaviour.

[Nil_Drift]

Bob Viking was totally correct in saying "Nowadays our young crews have some truly world beating aircraft and they are bored of it after 3-6 years. That should speak volumes if anyone was listening."

On my regular commute I discovered that a travelling companion was an ex-Typhoon pilot. He described the airborne task as "a lonely game of chess at high altitude" and after one tour he had had enough. Having started my flying career in a Hunter at low level down Loch Ness, I can see how aviation has modernised but not necessarily to the satisfaction of young aviators who want 'real' heart-thumping flying, not lonely cerebral gamesmanship which they could do online in their accommodation.

[langleybaston]

[QUOTE=mahogany bob;11337552]o Me



Also LB what I find difficult to stomach is your constant biting criticism of the Reds -having never experienced in your warm met office the severe pressures and stress that they regularly experienced !

Quite so, it was a totally carefree life of ease, customer easy-going and forgiving, just covering shifts 24/7, postings every 3 years, frequent detachments to strange places, briefing massed para. drops, forecasting for moving special weapons, forecasting for aircraft on long over sea flights with no diversions worth a stuff .
Nicosia, Leeming, Topcliffe, Church Fenton, Acklington, Dishforth, Manby, Gutersloh, Finningley, Bawtry, JHQ, TACEVAL trapper, Maastricht, JHQ, Brize
One duodenal ulcer and major surgery.

No comparison with the Reds at all, stress-wise or behaviour-wise. Shame to take the money and the nice fat index-linked pension. In retrospect, I should have paid Her Majesty to be allowed to do the simple repetitive boring job.

By the way. just as the RAF is not the raf, the Reds are not the reds, Met. is not met please.

You will be pleased to know that these are my last words on the subject ot grounding the Red Arrows; others infinitely better qualified to judge appear to agree with me and this ignorant, cosseted, "know-nothing about the RAF" civilian will be happy to learn from their wisdom.

[MPN11]

On your Team, Langley. :ok:

[charliegolf]

Regarding the stresses on the Reds... Family life with overseas camps and displays; no weekends off for what, 6 months in each year? Not easy, I'm sure. But they all knew the cheque they were writing, more so in contrast with constant deployments in the front line. That doesn't validate bad behaviour, in the perpetrator or the onlooker. In my opinion.

Disbandment? Not sure that's right, but in a raggedy-arsed, 'is it 9, 7, 5 or what'; and people being named and shamed- a stand down and rebuild might be in order. If the service doesn't then reinstate, then the Reds were out of time anyway, perhaps.

Finally, the "You aren't a jet pilot, so you can't possibly comprehend...", standpoint is bollocks, by the way.

CG

[MPN11]

"Improper behaviour" is nothing new. Sqn Ldr/WRAF Cpl [in the Mess], Wg Cdr/Plt Off [in the Mess], Fg Off (W)/Cpl in the toilets ... and those are just some of those of which I am aware. Sadly, Willy has a mind of his own, and he's not very bright.

[C24]

🇺🇦 🌻 🌻

There are some interesting and knowledgeable posts on here.

RAFAT does need to change, hopefully to remain as the display team demonstrating the abilities of some fast jet pilots.

The Reds exclusive, private flying club has closed down.

Based at RAF Waddington, RAFAT should benefit from integrating back into their parent organisation.

The pilots in the team at any one time are not the “Best of the best” but just the fortunate ones selected from a small number of FJ pilots available at the time.

A greater opportunity for everyone to fly in the team could be to reduce the “holiday” to two years and no second posting to RAFAT.

The display routine could be adjusted to allow individuals to fly in more then one formation position.

The Spring ex could be reduced to fewer flying days, if not deleted altogether. Bonding through barbecues, golfing and go-carting should be outside working hours and from the pilots’ own pocket.

There is a holdup in the training scheme. Why not take advantage of the skills and arrange a course using the Reds experience based at Waddington with the students based at Cranwell? A couple of days a week doing a day job and the rest as Reds.

World tours to be banned.

The Country is and will be strapped for cash for years to come, so to retain the team some of this might be useful.

England are currently getting stuffed by the Boks otherwise I would not be scribbling this.

I have been a fan since Culdrose Air Day, 1966 when I almost managed a ride.

Time will tell

[Runaway Gun]

So replacing over half the team each year is your plan? Training them to fly multiple positions is also going to reduce safety. Both of these ideas seem to come from someone with no idea of the challenges involved.

[Bob Viking]

I was with you to begin with but when you suggested making the pilots pay for Springhawk out of their own pocket you lost me. Aside from the fact that a large part of the entertainments budget is already paid for by the team by way of the ‘Pigz’, if your answer is to shave off all the fun and remove any semblance of a good deal then you have just proven exactly why so many pilots are leaving.

You can all laugh and scoff and call pilots Prima Donnas all you like but when there are none left because all the fun has been sucked out of it and you’re asking OC PSF to jump into a Typhoon you’ll realise there is a very good reason why those pilots were complaining so much.

The politics of envy are alive and well but some people just can’t, or won’t, see it.

BV

[Just This Once...]

This time claiming to have evidence of the attempts to cover up......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11471075/RAF-sparks-fury-labelling-allegations-whistle-blower-sex-abuse-scandal-false.html

If true, then it is to be hoped that all those involved will be dismissed too.

The RAF official also denied the woman raised the matter with one of the force’s most senior officers, Air Vice-Marshal Suraya Marshall

Could I ever believe that Suraya Marshall, who I have known for many years, be involved in such dishonest and underhand conduct?

Well, yes of course I could. This is the type of behaviour that I both observed and indeed came to expect from her. Her personal professional gain comes above everything else and she is quite capable of dragging-down the integrity of others around her. However, she is now in the protected bubble of the star chamber, so her version of events will be the 'official' RAF position.

[Bob Viking]

Wait a minute. I thought that every organisation needed more women in high up places because they are so much nicer than men. Or are you trying to say that they are human like everyone else and prone to character flaws just like men?

This is totally new information.

BV

[Trumpet trousers]

I had the good fortune to be a guest at the recent RAF Scampton closure parade, (the 2nd time I've attended a closure parade at Scampton, but I digress...)
The lady officer mentioned above was the reviewing officer. The things that stood out for me during the ceremony was the Lancaster nailing the flypast as the RO arrived at the dais, also, less praiseworthy were, (in no particular order) the ROs address, which appeared to be a straight cut and paste from the station history printed in the programme, the failure of the RO to return the salute from the parade commander prior to the parade marching off, and the parade commander attempting to march off the parade before the colour party were turned into line.

It appears low standards (of whatever flavour) are not the sole preserve of the RAFAT.

[charliegolf]

I had the good fortune to be a guest at the recent RAF Scampton closure parade, (the 2nd time I've attended a closure parade at Scampton, but I digress...)
The lady officer mentioned above was the reviewing officer. The things that stood out for me during the ceremony was the Lancaster nailing the flypast as the RO arrived at the dais, also, less praiseworthy were, (in no particular order) the ROs address, which appeared to be a straight cut and paste from the station history printed in the programme, the failure of the RO to return the salute from the parade commander prior to the parade marching off, and the parade commander attempting to march off the parade before the colour party were turned into line.

It appears low standards (of whatever flavour) are not the sole preserve of the RAFAT.

Did she rape, grope, verbally harass anyone? I couldn't care less that the Reds may or may not love themselves; use 'pals' favour' to select new members; go golfing and karting; get pissed often and the rest. Shagging a junior rank, not so much.

CG

[mike rondot]

Does nobody read Catch 22 these days?

You must forgive me for thinking it was some kind of bizarre joke that Marshal Marshall was mentioned in the press as a candidate for the soon-to-be-vacant post of CAS. Just saying….

[MPN11]

ha!

+ extra characters!

[Chugalug2]

Her parents missed the chance in not naming her Marsha. Major Major was named by his father who had a sense of humour of course and was promoted to Major thanks to the Washington computer, showing it also had a sense of humour. Is she perhaps only in when she is out?

[WillNorris81]

You have no idea of the irony of this statement regarding shagging junior ranks…

[57mm]

Remember Flt Lt Dave Major at 4FTS Valley? He may well have been promoted, giving us Sqn Ldr Major.....

[BEagle]

He wasn't. He was also my primary QFI during my JP course at RAFC in 1973-4.

Really nice chap, IIRC he left the RAF for an airline career.

[Barksdale Boy]

I knew a British army officer, one Major Major; he changed his name to Edwards-Major. I heard he was later promoted. Not sure if he dropped the Edwards.

[Dave Roome]

As an airline captain, dave would have been Captain Major.

[stevef]

I used to work with an ex-RAF corporal. His surname was Sargent. Nothing to do with the Red Arrows but I thought it worth a mention. :}

[dctyke]

I used to work with an ex-RAF corporal. His surname was Sargent. Nothing to do with the Red Arrows but I thought it worth a mention. :}

The SAC Wanklyn I worked with would dream of been called Sargent. It was a harsh world in the early 70s!

[treadigraph]

I used to work with an ex-RAF corporal. His surname was Sargent. Nothing to do with the Red Arrows but I thought it worth a mention. :}

I worked with somebody whose name was Constable and her dad was a prison officer; I imagine a job with the police was not a sensible option....

As an airline captain, dave would have been Captain Major.

If he had an older brother, at school he could have been Major Minor...

[Just This Once...]

Does nobody read Catch 22 these days?

You must forgive me for thinking it was some kind of bizarre joke that Marshal Marshall was mentioned in the press as a candidate for the soon-to-be-vacant post of CAS. Just saying….

Catch 22 doesn't do it justice as it's her married name, taken from the other 'Marshal Marshall'. At one stage he was AOC 1 Group when she became AOC 2 Group.

[MPN11]

Catch 22 doesn't do it justice as it's her married name, taken from the other 'Marshal Marshall'. At one stage he was AOC 1 Group when she became AOC 2 Group.
Family take-over? What next? Is one of their sons called Kim?

[SASless]

What would happen if the Marshal had order Marshal to Marshal Marshal's forces?

[MPN11]

This is all largely irrelevant to the topic, of course. But Wiki says she is CBE, and he’s only OBE.

Now, with that light diversion out of the way, should we not revert to the matter in hand?

[Lordflasheart]

...
The SAC Wanklyn I worked with ...

Wanklyn ... There's a name to respect ...

Lt Cdr Malcolm David Wanklyn RN - VC, DSO and two Bars

HMS Upholder, Missing on their 28th Patrol, Mediterranean, April 1942

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wanklyn

LFH

...

[MPN11]

I give up . play with yourselves.

[oldmansquipper]

MPN…. Right!

SAC Wanklyn and whom?

👋🤌

[H Peacock]

The display routine could be adjusted to allow individuals to fly in more then one formation position.

That’ll never happen unless they drop to being just a pair!!

[mike rondot]

I apologise for dragging the thread off piste with the Catch 22 thing, but in my defence I am constantly amazed by reports in the press of the inept and insensitive statements made by senior RAF Officers about the Reds and their catalogue of appalling behaviour.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11471075/RAF-sparks-fury-labelling-allegations-whistle-blower-sex-abuse-scandal-false.html

Whoever it was that rubbished the claims made by one of the whistleblowers and described them as false and defamatory will presumably soon be getting a close-up view of the underside of the Number 300 bus. It does still stop outside HQSTC doesn’t it? Or maybe it will be one of the frequent buses that run past Main Building.

[teeonefixer]

I used to work with an ex-RAF corporal. His surname was Sargent. Nothing to do with the Red Arrows but I thought it worth a mention. :}

Apologies for the continued drift, but there was a Sgt Sargent* at RAFAT a few years ago!
( * not sure of the exact spelling)

[lsh]

My M-i-L's next door neighbour was in the RN, not commissioned.
His name was Staines.
He served on RY Britannia.

lsh

[NutLoose]

Still running saga in the Times, apparently another former Red Arrows pilot forced his way into a female officers hotel room and only left when she screamed, he left the forces several years ago and is accused of getting drunk the night before the air show.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-arrows-pilot-forced-his-way-into-female-officers-room-wx272d5rn. (Behind firewall)

[Timelord]

According to the Times report the pilot in question was “blacklisted from the RAF”. What on earth does that mean?

[MPN11]

Barred from joining the Party Squadron?

Perhaps he has some residual value after all the money spent training him?

[langleybaston]

According to the Times report the pilot in question was “blacklisted from the RAF”. What on earth does that mean?

Disgracefully racist.

Black-balling is something else, but time heals all.

[MechGov]

I wonder if any of the leaders or supervisors that allowed this toxic culture to exist will face consequences. Or, in keeping with RAF tradition, a broken system becomes the sole responsibility of the incumbent leader. After all, they touched it last and the music has clearly stopped.

[Yellowjack99]

Obviously not oblivious to the news, but by this point in the season isn't it normal to have announced the new team, and be underway with pre-season training, especially since Syerston has been notified as the training site. Any idea when the team for 2023 will be announced, or if display plans for 2023 still being considered?

[LS8C1]

There is a team with new members for 2023. Why would there be new airspace otherwise?
I imagine they're waiting for a fair amount of dust to settle before announcing.

[Baldeep Inminj]

There is a team with new members for 2023. Why would there be new airspace otherwise?
I imagine they're waiting for a fair amount of dust to settle before announcing.

I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the new pilots were ‘selected’…Given the current reputation of the team and the poisonous effect it now has on the RAF’s PR and recruiting efforts, I am curious to see who would lower themselves so far as to want to be a Red, unless of course they support sexual harassment and bullying?
I can almost imagine that far from people applying, OC RAFAT was probably calling Sqn’s and begging people to apply.
It will be interesting to see who felt the Red’s was for them.

[MPN11]

“not me, Guv’nor” … certainly unlikely to be a career move these days, but then the “leaders” don’t need that on their CV. Having a good time playing with jets (etc) … yes.

Sadly there may be not enough middle ground between ‘the greasy pole’ and ‘hey, this is fun’ … perhaps a factor of the severely diminished population in which they now serve? Have fun, or reach to the stars? Or just grind on to Pension time? There are many sorts of good people out there, and always have been.

[langleybaston]

“not me, Guv’nor” … certainly unlikely to be a career move these days, but then the “leaders” don’t need that on their CV. Having a good time playing with jets (etc) … yes.

Sadly there may be not enough middle ground between ‘the greasy pole’ and ‘hey, this is fun’ … perhaps a factor of the severely diminished population in which they now serve? Have fun, or reach to the stars? Or just grind on to Pension time? There are many sorts of good people out there, and always have been.

Quite so.

Yes, diminishing population has seemed to polarise that three-way split, but it did not seem like it until the end of the First Cold War. [Three-way polarisation? Sorry].

As an interested outsider I observed many of my neighbours, young-ish officers, apparently having a great time flying Hunters and Lightnings at Gutersloh late 1960s. As a group, they seemed to do very well on the greasy pole in later years .............. my later expoloits with seaweed and crystal balls met a goodly number of them transformed into Gp Capts or Air Cdres [and at least one ACM].

Difficult to know what a career move looks like these days.

[LS8C1]

Quite so.

Yes, diminishing population has seemed to polarise that three-way split, but it did not seem like it until the end of the First Cold War. [Three-way polarisation? Sorry].

As an interested outsider I observed many of my neighbours, young-ish officers, apparently having a great time flying Hunters and Lightnings at Gutersloh late 1960s. As a group, they seemed to do very well on the greasy pole in later years .............. my later expoloits with seaweed and crystal balls met a goodly number of them transformed into Gp Capts or Air Cdres [and at least one ACM].

Difficult to know what a career move looks like these days.

Working in the Middle East for BAE.

[downsizer]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11585187/Female-RAF-Corporal-wins-sex-abuse-tribunal-court-martial-clears-male-colleague-abused-her.html

[Jobza Guddun]

Not the Reds Downsizer but it obviously has a degree of relevance to the thread.

Unfortunate for the officer to be named, the public criticism won't do her any favours.

[downsizer]

Not disputing that, but it adds to the narrative around unacceptable behavior and the RAFs response to it.

[RAFEngO74to09]

New OC RAFAT Wing Commander Adam Collins | Royal Air Force (mod.uk) (https://raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/wing-commander-adam-collins/)

New Officer Commanding for Red Arrows | Royal Air Force (mod.uk) (https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/news/new-officer-commanding-for-red-arrows1/)

[langleybaston]

Good luck.

[8674planes]

I was a little shocked to see Montenegro is still flying and in the job. I thought he was suspended...

[rigpiggy]

I think there is a good case for grounding them for the rest of the season and starting afresh. In this day and age there shouldn't be any hint of drinking culture around the display circuit. Some friends had an unpleasant experience of another display crew (ground-crew) in a resort hotel. Rude, loud, dishevelled and worse for wear and yet still wearing enough bits of uniform identifying them as RAF people supposedly on the front-line of PR. Time for a big reset.
ATCO's, and Airline crews are under constant threat of alcohol/drugs tests, so why can't the RAF get a grip of this?
had an f/o that couldn't have just 2, he had a bit of a squabble with a "once" young dolly who thought she was all that"maybe 15 years ago " buddy told her the straight goods. Next morning she complained to company that their pilots were drinking within 8 hrs(14) pulled off the flightline, and DH'd to YYZ for the carpet dance. Had the receipt with time and date, sent on our way with the" how would you do this better talk.......My F/O understood then why whenever I was asked what I do, the answer was sell insurance " do you have term of whole life? " then people left me alone.

[KrisKringle]

New OC RAFAT Wing Commander Adam Collins | Royal Air Force (mod.uk) (https://raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/wing-commander-adam-collins/)

New Officer Commanding for Red Arrows | Royal Air Force (mod.uk) (https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/news/new-officer-commanding-for-red-arrows1/)

Cos will be a great boss. He hasn't been in the display team itself, he fulfilled the role of RAFAT manager/commentator, but has zero naughty habits or skeletons. He's also a good leader, has lots of broad experience and is a really top chap. Just the person to head the team at this challenging time. Good luck!

[unmanned_droid]

Cos will be a great boss. He hasn't been in the display team itself, he fulfilled the role of RAFAT manager/commentator, but has zero naughty habits or skeletons. He's also a good leader, has lots of broad experience and is a really top chap. Just the person to head the team at this challenging time. Good luck!

I don't really know what to think of the RAF anymore so we'll see I guess.

[Parson]

So an 8 ship this year......?!

[MG]

So an 8 ship this year......?!
care to elaborate?
I have these discussions at home, when my other half up starts up a conversation where the first half of it has been part of her inner-monologue and has clearly been going on for quite a while without me.

[Parson]

care to elaborate?
I have these discussions at home, when my other half up starts up a conversation where the first half of it has been part of her inner-monologue and has clearly been going on for quite a while without me.

Can't seem to paste link but is on Red Arrows website

[airsound]

OC RAFAT, Wg Cdr Adam Collins, explains it all
https://twitter.com/rafredarrows

8-ship - same as La Patrouille de France...

airsound

[Parson]

OC RAFAT, Wg Cdr Adam Collins, explains it all
https://twitter.com/rafredarrows

8-ship - same as La Patrouille de France...

airsound

Ta, sounds plausible I guess. Where's Mike Ling when you need him......

[Finningley Boy]

I wouldn't want to argue with the experts, but thinking back 60 years or so, the big Hunter and Lightning teams would, in the case of the former, operate up to 18 aircraft. This with a heavier, bigger and more robust performing machine. They would also split the full formation into smaller set teams with varying numbers, mostly to spread as far as possible on the annual "At Home" day when stations in double figures would be open. The Firebirds (Lightnings) flew a 10-ship display over Biggin Hill then split into 5-ship teams to cover two other events. This would surely increase the workload, different sequences with varying numbers requiring additional practice. Not to mention at least one pilot, in addition to the overall team leader, would also need to be team leader for a smaller formation. All aerobatic as well.

FB

[dctyke]

I wouldn't want to argue with the experts, but thinking back 60 years or so, the big Hunter and Lightning teams would, in the case of the former, operate up to 18 aircraft. This with a heavier, bigger and more robust performing machine. They would also split the full formation into smaller set teams with varying numbers, mostly to spread as far as possible on the annual "At Home" day when stations in double figures would be open. The Firebirds (Lightnings) flew a 10-ship display over Biggin Hill then split into 5-ship teams to cover two other events. This would surely increase the workload, different sequences with varying numbers requiring additional practice. Not to mention at least one pilot, in addition to the overall team leader, would also need to be team leader for a smaller formation. All aerobatic as well.

FB

and 60 years ago the RAF were losing an average of 3 / 4 aircraft per week! (Up till 20 March it was 23)

[Finningley Boy]

and 60 years ago the RAF were losing an average of 3 / 4 aircraft per week! (Up till 20 March it was 23)
What... 23 a week!? No, surly not.

FB

[Diff Tail Shim]

I wouldn't want to argue with the experts, but thinking back 60 years or so, the big Hunter and Lightning teams would, in the case of the former, operate up to 18 aircraft. This with a heavier, bigger and more robust performing machine. They would also split the full formation into smaller set teams with varying numbers, mostly to spread as far as possible on the annual "At Home" day when stations in double figures would be open. The Firebirds (Lightnings) flew a 10-ship display over Biggin Hill then split into 5-ship teams to cover two other events. This would surely increase the workload, different sequences with varying numbers requiring additional practice. Not to mention at least one pilot, in addition to the overall team leader, would also need to be team leader for a smaller formation. All aerobatic as well.

FB
Air Force was way bigger and life was cheap. Airframes were cheap. And the Country wasn't so skint. Some on here work in the 21st Century. I am mates with the guy whom is Red 4 now. He ain't woke. But he is as he is one of the most human beings on the job one could meet. He is not an I in the word Team.

[Finningley Boy]

Air Force was way bigger and life was cheap. Airframes were cheap. And the Country wasn't so skint. Some on here work in the 21st Century. I am mates with the guy whom is Red 4 now. He ain't woke. But he is as he is one of the most human beings on the job one could meet. He is not an I in the word Team.
I merely make an observation sir, you say life was cheap, I don't think so. We are talking about the 1960s not the 1560s.

FB

[Diff Tail Shim]

I merely make an observation sir, you say life was cheap, I don't think so. We are talking about the 1960s not the 1560s.

FB
But it was Sir. Accident investigations were basic and subjective then. It took the late 20th century and major accidents to change the approach. Enough technical experts to wade in more. I know the odd Red actually. As mentioned. Red 4 is a mate. I was with another Red last weekend whom did 3 year. I am so glad no juke boxes about now to play a certain Queen track. Fortunately in 27 years we haven't had the run of an accident a day.

[Gne]

By coincidence a mate (ex RN) sent me this this morning - not a bad summary and some great footage. Check of a 22 ship barrel roll.

https://youtu.be/Ub3ue_2LONE

You might need to copy the URL and paste to your browser to view.

Gne

[Yellowjack99]

Good to see an older pilot joining the team, it says Red 2 joined the RAF in 1991. Would he be Spec Aircrew?

[dctyke]

What... 23 a week!? No, surly not.

FB

No, from 1st January to 20th March 1963. (We lost a total of 120 that year)

[Finningley Boy]

No, from 1st January to 20th March 1963. (We lost a total of 120 that year)
But how did it all break down, what were the circumstances at the time given less reliable navigation aids etc. Was servicing involved. The attitude certainly wasn't dismissive, there has been a constant learning curve shall we say, I know that with regards to display flying, there was an accident during training for the Firebirds aerobatics team that year which resulted in an ejection, one write off and the pilot being wheel chair bound as a result. However, this wasn't a result of cutting corners or recklessness from what I can understand, it was as they say, shear bad luck. Later that year 15 RAF stations were open to the public with the RAF providing the bulk of fare at each. As far as I'm aware, despite some aerobatics teams/solos appearing at three or more each, the day passed off without incident. It's not a disregard for life that was the problem so much as the greater risk involved at the time, and yes, many more aircraft scattered across the world flying in different conditions with a comparative limited reliability on known procedures etc. Again, more a learning curve.

FB

FB

[EGDLaddict]

Aircraft of that era were monstrously difficult to handle compared even to those brought into service just a handful of years later.

[Jackonicko]

I was a little shocked to see Montenegro is still flying and in the job. I thought he was suspended...

Who says he's still flying and in the job?

Poor chap seems to be suffering plenty of slings and arrows - latest edition of his book seems to no longer have his name on the cover, even.

[Just This Once...]

Who says he's still flying and in the job?

Jacko, check the date and context of your quote. It isn't relevant today.

[Jackonicko]

Thanks Just This Once.

I hope he's OK and enjoying life. I'm an unashamed fan of Monty.

[Barksdale Boy]

Thanks Just This Once.

I hope he's OK and enjoying life. I'm an unashamed fan of Monty.
Met him once - a delightful chap.