VA and VARA integration

[Packvalve]

From an VA AFAP rep today, the AFAP(without member consultation again!) reached a preliminary agreement with the Company to allow the redundant F100 pilots to join the VA NB EBA with conditions of seniority still to be discussed.

They (VARA) will be simultaneously be on Leave Without Pay of their own EBA, while operating on the VA EBA until both agreements expire, at which time re- negotiations are expected to take place.

[anonfly]

What redundant f100 pilots?

[TimmyTee]

Obviously a wind up, no way they could agree to something like that without member consultation

[air command]

No wind up TimmyTee, Pack valve is pretty close to the mark.
All is about to be revealed, and the union membership will have some serious thinking to do.

[davidclarke]

Not part of the VA group but why would the F100 pilots be being made redundant?
Aren’t the 737-700s coming a straight swap for the F100?

[PoppaJo]

I got a email from Virgin this week, some of our family intra Queensland flights early next year have had equipment change to all economy -700.

Looking further it appears they are basing a couple in BNE? Whole pile of routes moving to the 700.

[Packvalve]

It’s definitely no wind up Timmy Tee - only reporting the facts! Which should soon come to light.

Seems that dumb pilots will continue to pay the AFAP to negotiate a pay cut and still accept zero consultation.

[Goat Whisperer]

Ok, I'm keen to hear how this could have been done better. Given the F100s are to be replaced by 737s, how would would YOU do it?

I'd be disappointed if I was about to get a F100 command.

[Biatch]

From an VA AFAP rep today, the AFAP(without member consultation again!) reached a preliminary agreement with the Company to allow the redundant F100 pilots to join the VA NB EBA with conditions of seniority still to be discussed.

They (VARA) will be simultaneously be on Leave Without Pay of their own EBA, while operating on the VA EBA until both agreements expire, at which time re- negotiations are expected to take place.

without member consultation?!? Oh please. What part of the word “Representatives” do you not understand. They have effected an outcome which is better than expected given the circumstances thrust onto the pilot body by the company. To expect them to come to a group vote every time they need to make a decision is ludicrous and impractical and you know it.

[TimmyTee]

I got a email from Virgin this week, some of our family intra Queensland flights early next year have had equipment change to all economy -700.

Looking further it appears they are basing a couple in BNE? Whole pile of routes moving to the 700.

Im guessing east coast rpt flying is limited to just the boys and girls at VA mainline given they currently fly these routes - would be interesting if vara pilots could now do these. Who reps the vara folk?

[mates rates]

It makes sense these 700’s will replace current Alliance flying on the east coast.You can’t get a seat to Newcastle out of BNE on those 100 seaters of Alliance.So let’s go to 144 seats.

[Packvalve]

without member consultation?!? Oh please. What part of the word “Representatives” do you not understand. They have effected an outcome which is better than expected given the circumstances thrust onto the pilot body by the company. To expect them to come to a group vote every time they need to make a decision is ludicrous and impractical and you know it.


I only offered facts, but you’re suggesting a Carte Blanche following of the “Representatives” who have subsequently left the sinking ship, steered by rusted-on low payed IR lawyers.

I can only hope the other members question their “Representatives” with less partisan views

[turbantime]

The alternative is a QF style divide and conquer approach. There would be nothing stopping VA giving the airframes to VARA, without consultation, and growing them at the expense of VA. Then subsequently using IR tactics to play both groups against each other to keep terms and conditions low.

This agreement allows for current F100 pilots to transfer to 737 on current base and rank under the VA EA (no redundancies). Any subsequent growth in positions must come in GDOJ order. For me, this is a good outcome for both sets of pilot groups and also the company as it means everyone eventually working under the same EA and AOC.

[Tabasco James]

Playing off between different groups doesn’t really matter does it? Didn’t the VA pilots get a 20% base salary pay reduction and ‘promise’ of targeted credit above minimum guarantee that hasn’t eventuated?

[Capt Basil Brush]

Ok Packvalve, everyone is wondering exactly how YOU would have done things if you were the “Representative” that would be a better outcome for both pilot groups? (And not just a better outcome for you)

Dont hold back Packvalve, outline every measure you would have taken in dealing with this. With the claims you are making against the union’s, you owe it to everyone to enlighten us all.

(what are the odds for silence - or no answer??)
​​​​​,

[TimmyTee]

The alternative is a QF style divide and conquer approach. There would be nothing stopping VA giving the airframes to VARA, without consultation, and growing them at the expense of VA. Then subsequently using IR tactics to play both groups against each other to keep terms and conditions low.

Interesting. Does this proposal (is it?) include a guarantee that Bain or any other future owners won't set up a second entity any time in the future the way Qantas have?
That's a big win if they have secured that guarantee, but flip side is, if not, then the threat will always come even after this 'win'

[turbantime]

My comment around ‘QF style’ isn’t a dig at you all in the QF group. Merely an alternative perspective to what could have transpired.

[Goat Whisperer]

Interesting. Does this proposal (is it?) include a guarantee that Bain or any other future owners won't set up a second entity any time in the future the way Qantas have?
That's a big win if they have secured that guarantee, but flip side is, if not, then the threat will always come even after this 'win'


No Timmy, there are no guarantees. But this move consolidates the work groups, so the lowest paid pilots in the group move up. This avoids a potential undercutting of pay/conditions so if they want a Per based former Skywest pilot to fly BNE-PPP with a MEL based pilot, there need be no barrier. I will welcome them to the fleet, and hope they are happy with the move.

[No Idea Either]

Playing off between different groups doesn’t really matter does it? Didn’t the VA pilots get a 20% base salary pay reduction and ‘promise’ of targeted credit above minimum guarantee that hasn’t eventuated?

You are correct Tabasco….some are on max hours and raking in a bit of overtime, back to where they were as promised. Then there’s me………I have not been rostered above MCG since it began. It’s the way you bid they say but my bids haven’t changed for decades and I bid exactly the same as every other commuter. On the rare occasion I have been a few hours over, mostly due to being called off reserve, I seem to get trimmed back down…..go figure. Minimum pay…..therefore minimum effort………

[PoppaJo]

Wouldn’t a senior A320 captain be going backwards in pay?

[turbantime]

Wouldn’t a senior A320 captain be going backwards in pay?
Only applies to F100 as they’re being replaced by 737-700s. A320s to remain…for now…

[Packvalve]

Ok Packvalve, everyone is wondering exactly how YOU would have done things if you were the “Representative” that would be a better outcome for both pilot groups? (And not just a better outcome for you)

Dont hold back Packvalve, outline every measure you would have taken in dealing with this. With the claims you are making against the union’s, you owe it to everyone to enlighten us all.

(what are the odds for silence - or no answer??)
​​​​​,

I don’t owe you Jack!
I just reported the facts on PPRUNE a couple of days before it became reality!

Another fact is, that majority domestic VA FO’s are very disappointed that the the AFAP have sold out the 737 expansion that was promised commands in favour of the TWU redundant F100 Pilots.

And no, I’m not affected by this at all - just saying what the general sentiment is.

[RealSatoshi]

Are there any VA 737 Pilots based in PER, or is everything farmed out to VARA then?

[turbantime]

Another fact is, that majority domestic VA FO’s are very disappointed that the the AFAP have sold out the 737 expansion that was promised commands in favour of the TWU redundant F100 Pilots.

What redundant F100 pilots do you keep referring to? There have simply been no redundancies within VARA as far as I’m aware.

On your first point, all expansion beyond the current F100 pilots transferring goes by GDOJ. It could have easily been siloed to VARA but the work of the feds ensured all future opportunities are presented to the entire group.

[Packvalve]

Here’s the kicker.
VA NBA 2021
APPENDIX 3 Section 2.
”Command priority dates will operate for the award of narrow body commands.”

Specifically, Section 2 does not mention VARA pilots, and neither do they have a CPD on the current GDOJ list.

If you’re a current VA FO or on the Inactive list - risking another few years without a Command, you would be well served by contacting your AFAP “Representative” and the Deputy Chief Pilot(acting) to clarify your slot.

[turbantime]

What exactly would you have done differently packvalve? If you think the company would have signed off on demoting current VARA captains just to make room for VA FOs, then you’ve got rocks in your head.

From a pure business standpoint, it would have been beneficial to keep the two entities seperated and silo any future opportunities. This agreement allows ALL pilots to access future growth opportunities within the group. Yes, there is a short term hit to current FOs but there will be some VARA F100 crew who won’t want to transfer to the 737 and then throw in natural attrition. It’ll mean more opportunities in the long run. The rumour is that prior to this consultation, only four FOs had bids for Perth based 737 commands anyway.

So again, what would you have done differently here? And again, what redundant F100 pilots do you keep crowing about?

[Packvalve]

From a pure business standpoint,

Yes, there is a short term hit to current FO’s

So again, what would you have done differently here?

Ok - how about stick to the EBA!

Timmy(H), your post is about as nonsensical as your contributions in the Town Halls.

Last email from the Company albeit condemned the Airbus fleet to the same fate - so again, another short term hit to the current FO’s by your own admission.

The only savior you have, is that your collusion with the AFAP lawyers may find a way to dissuade the FO’s into silence once more.

Enjoy the phone calls!👍

[davidclarke]

Packvalve. So you expect a current Jet captain to take a demotion just so you can get ‘your’ command?
Do you realise some of said captains have been in the company since the 90s, probably when you were still in nappies……..stop having a sook.

[43Inches]

Wouldn't be the first time, when QLink introduced the Q-400 in Melbourne the -300 captains without seniority had to move base or accept FO positions, some both. All depends whether you want to accept seniority as a captain vs base seniority vs overall seniority, vs type seniority. In any case someone will be upset, good luck to making everybody happy, I wish it was possible. Sadly DiVosh is no longer with us to relate how upsetting that was.

[turbantime]

Ok - how about stick to the EBA!

Timmy(H), your post is about as nonsensical as your contributions in the Town Halls.

Last email from the Company albeit condemned the Airbus fleet to the same fate - so again, another short term hit to the current FO’s by your own admission.

The only savior you have, is that your collusion with the AFAP lawyers may find a way to dissuade the FO’s into silence once more.

Enjoy the phone calls!👍
Which EBA? VARA or VAA? You do realise there are two workgroups here who both need to be taken into consideration right? Once again, it would have been easy just to hand the airframes to VARA under their EBA, then let them slowly creep more into RPT while people like you sit there getting angrier by the day.

Are you suggesting I am a management or AFAP stooge? Wrong egghead! Rather than debate the points, people like you start attacking the person. You realise that just makes you look non-sensical and ignorant right?

I appreciate what this means in the short term, but I am absolutely certain that this is a win for the ENTIRE pilot group in the long term. Try and convince me otherwise, without calling me names.

[43Inches]

The only winners are those that get the benefit in this situation. Either an FO is told they have to wait much longer for career advancement, or a Captain has to act as FO for a while. Either way there will be a small few that will probably pack up and move elsewhere with either outcome. And a lot of grumbling from whoever is disaffected, as is already evident here.

[JeTpLt]

Packvalve. So you expect a current Jet captain to take a demotion just so you can get ‘your’ command?
Do you realise some of said captains have been in the company since the 90s, probably when you were still in nappies……..stop having a sook.

Whilst there are some said 90s era captains there are also some who are junior and were unsuccessful in getting a job with VAA and then got into VARA. These people will now be flying VAA aircraft on VAA routes with more senior VAA FOs in the right seat.
There will always be winners and losers. In this case there are potentially hundreds of VAA FOs who are losers in comparison to the 80 odd at VARA.

[non_state_actor]

Wouldn't be the first time, when QLink introduced the Q-400 in Melbourne the -300 captains without seniority had to move base or accept FO positions, some both. All depends whether you want to accept seniority as a captain vs base seniority vs overall seniority, vs type seniority.

Except we don't have any of those. I don't even know what seniority means anymore. It's just what ever suits on a particular given day to fix a particular problem.

Anyway I think the message is loud and clear the future lies elsewhere if you are a junior FO who would like to be a captain one day.

you expect a current Jet captain to take a demotion just so you can get ‘your’ command?

Yes. That is the nature of seniority. Just have a look at QF mainline.
It is not the best system but it is the best of a bad choice. However we don't even have a "system" as such.

If we don't want to have a seniority system, that's OK but that needs to be advertised so people can organise themselves accordingly.

[davidclarke]

Except we don't have any of those. I don't even know what seniority means anymore. It's just what ever suits on a particular given day to fix a particular problem.

Anyway I think the message is loud and clear the future lies elsewhere if you are a junior FO who would like to be a captain one day.



Yes. That is the nature of seniority. Just have a look at QF mainline.
It is not the best system but it is the best of a bad choice. However we don't even have a "system" as such.

If we don't want to have a seniority system, that's OK but that needs to be advertised so people can organise themselves accordingly.

Ok so let me get this straight. Virgin has decided to replace an old aircraft type with a newer aircraft type, as the newer type will offer lower costs, increased reliability etc etc. As a result of modernising the fleet and thru absolutely no fault of their own doing, you want them to get demoted? Even though they will be flying most of the the same routes as they were previously on the old aircraft type.

From an outsiders perspective I’m shocked that you feel this way of thinking is justified.

Seniority sux. Pilots continue to cling to it. Just remember the company will do what is in their best interests, regardless of seniority, and until pilots get over this, the anguish will continue.

[Goat Whisperer]

Who is getting demoted???

[Packvalve]

Regardless,
The VA Narrow Body EBA 2021 is a stand-alone agreement that that cannot be influenced by another agreement(VARA or otherwise) unless it expressly states that within that agreement- which it does not.

The EBA outlines clearly how Commands will be allocated.

It is far more favorable for Bain to have a single AOC/Type and hold a gun to the head of the VARA pilots at the next negotiations after they have been allowed to be integrated by the current EBA parties/pilots (or their representatives).

Put simply, if it was fiscally more advantageous for Bain to expand the fleet via VARA, then they could have more easily done so.

Again - I’m unaffected by this, just highlighting the very obvious intent of Management and the elementary facets relating to this particular circumstance.

[non_state_actor]

Ok so let me get this straight. Virgin has decided to replace an old aircraft type with a newer aircraft type, as the newer type will offer lower costs, increased reliability etc etc. As a result of modernising the fleet and thru absolutely no fault of their own doing, you want them to get demoted? Even though they will be flying most of the the same routes as they were previously on the old aircraft type.

From an outsiders perspective I’m shocked that you feel this way of thinking is justified.

Seniority sux. Pilots continue to cling to it. Just remember the company will do what is in their best interests, regardless of seniority, and until pilots get over this, the anguish will continue.


Yes that is straight line seniority and everyone knows where they stand as opposed to whatever we have now which is almost worse than no seniority.

Remember every system is flawed seniority or non-seniority there is no perfect system and they can all be corrupted. My problem is that it appears there is no system at all.

Seniority sux. Pilots continue to cling to it. Just remember the company will do what is in their best interests, regardless of seniority, and until pilots get over this, the anguish will continue.

And replace it with what? A "performance" system which just becomes an old boys club?

[davidclarke]

Yes that is straight line seniority and everyone knows where they stand as opposed to whatever we have now which is almost worse than no seniority.

Remember every system is flawed seniority or non-seniority there is no perfect system and they can all be corrupted. My problem is that it appears there is no system at all.



And replace it with what? A "performance" system which just becomes an old boys club?

It is a straight fleet replacement.
Seniority doesn’t apply in that case. If you go by your reasoning then any captain behind you on the seniority list should be demoted immediately and you should get their spot regardless of fleet etc. It just doesn’t work like that!!

[43Inches]

I think you missed the original post. This is not a straight forward fleet replacement, the initial post states that the VARA crew are being integrated into the VA EBA with leave from the VARA EBA. This means integration of seniority in part and therefore there needs to be negotiation on who is entitled to what. If the VARA EBA was handling the fleet replacement then it would be straight forward. Other things come into play with regards to the whole EBA. Nothing in this is straight forward. Once you merge two pilot groups you then have the other issues of base bidding, leave bidding, roster bidding etc etc...

The up side as alluded earlier is that all the pilots have the same agreement, so no undercutting as per QF group MO.

[non_state_actor]

It is a straight fleet replacement. Seniority doesn’t apply in that case. If you go by your reasoning then any captain behind you on the seniority list should be demoted immediately and you should get their spot regardless of fleet etc. It just doesn’t work like that!!

Well that all depends on the rules of engagement. The 737 replaced the EJet and those guys got demoted because they didn't have the seniority to remain in base.

This whole thing will become unhinged if VARA loses the Rio contract and a bunch of F100 Captains become BNE 737 Captains.

[airdualbleedfault]

Why don't all you whingers far cough to the US, everything is peachy over there.
Meanwhile I wouldn't mind betting not one solitary Skywest pilot wishes VA had bought them in 2013 :ugh: