NJS recruitment

[gordonfvckingramsay]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x885/684d476d_02bf_472e_8ec8_811b00ffb87b_e590af3fccd316c11b3e38f d83c4900b1da5b918.jpeg
No exodus or anything but this sounds promising for anyone wanting to fly a jet WITH lifestyle to boot.

[Climb150]

Why the obsession still with multi PIC?

[WillieTheWimp]

Why the obsession still with multi PIC?
GA with jets.

[aussieflyboy]

Why the obsession still with multi PIC?

Sounds like something a Caravan King would say…

[JoeTripodi]

Toxic incompetent management, poorly maintained aircraft, accelerating mass exodus of pilots, punitive training department run by carrot in ass military rejects etc etc. Where's the apply button?

[kingRB]

Toxic incompetent management, poorly maintained aircraft, accelerating mass exodus of pilots, punitive training department run by carrot in ass military rejects etc etc. Where's the apply button?

so just like all Australian airlines then?

[SuPeRcHaRgEd]

Any 'lifestyle' was removed with the new agreement that Qantas pushed through by threatening current pilots with their jobs.

13 RDO's in a calendar month with Virgin is a much better lifestyle option in my opinion.

[Icarus2001]

Yes, we will soon find out who is an employer of choice for pilots.

[bigbrother]

HR clearly haven’t woken from their insipid slumber. Jobs aplenty o/s, with a simple phone interview. None of the entry exams, sim “check” b.s, and a welcome mat to boot. The pain is just beginning

[WillieTheWimp]

Any 'lifestyle' was removed with the new agreement that Qantas pushed through by threatening current pilots with their jobs.

13 RDO's in a calendar month with Virgin is a much better lifestyle option in my opinion.
Would having pilots fly the aeroplanes be considered a strategic imperative?

[aussieflyboy]

NJS has a long history of operating Regional Jets. Remember NJS was flying Qantas passengers domestically before Qantas had a domestic airline. This is not a GA with Jets company like Network or Alliance.

My understanding is Qantas has slowly destroyed and crushed the happiness of the Tech Crew with multiple Base closures the past few years (the lifestyle bases).

Other then Tasmanian locals everyone is too scared to move to Hobart due to the fear of it closing and Melbourne was full of Cairns and Perth people who hate/hated the place. This is why they are short there and will be for some time.

Will be interesting to see how they will crew the A220 - I suspect they will need to offer retention bonuses soon or they’ll have a bunch of ex Rex cadets running the show.

[Icarus2001]

Will be interesting to see how they will crew the A220 If they ever take delivery and assuming they go to NJS. Two big IFs.

[smiling monkey]

If they ever take delivery and assuming they go to NJS. Two big IFs.

Judging by this job advert, I think there's a good chance the A220 will be coming.

https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Qantas_Careers/jobs/details/Senior-Training-Manager---A220-Flight-Operations_R82038-1

[dr dre]

Judging by this job advert, I think there's a good chance the A220 will be coming.

https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Qantas_Careers/jobs/details/Senior-Training-Manager---A220-Flight-Operations_R82038-1

I would've thought the job of manager of a brand new shiny aeroplane would usually be filled by eager ones inside the airline, but here they're having to advertise for someone externally? Also can't help but notice the large amount of ramp and freight jobs available in the left hand column.....

[Climb150]

Sounds like something a Caravan King would say…
I do have a lot of Caravan time but also some king Air PIC and a bunch of jet FO time but still not eligible to apply.

Australia the land unrealistic management.

[havick]

I do have a lot of Caravan time but also some king Air PIC and a bunch of jet FO time but still not eligible to apply.

Australia the land unrealistic management.

And the likes of Alliance etc are complaining that they’re losing a good base of applicants to the USA.

Australian aviation really needs to figure out that it didn’t invent aviation.

[aussieflyboy]

I do have a lot of Caravan time but also some king Air PIC and a bunch of jet FO time but still not eligible to apply.

Australia the land unrealistic management.

Oh well head up North (don’t tell them about your US Jet time) start back on the van scenics for a bit and soon enough you’ll be on the Baron and will have enough multi time to apply to NJS.

You’ll find like many Jet Operators in Aus they require 500 multi command to be a Captain. Insurance/Company/AOC/Watever requirement.

[Climb150]

Oh well head up North (don’t tell them about your US Jet time) start back on the van scenics for a bit and soon enough you’ll be on the Baron and will have enough multi time to apply to NJS.

You’ll find like many Jet Operators in Aus they require 500 multi command to be a Captain. Insurance/Company/AOC/Watever requirement.
This is why I am never coming back. They can keep the numbers they make up from thin air. They will be asking for Uni degrees next.

[Capt Fathom]

This is why I am never coming back

Well that’s one less competitor for the position!
500 hrs multi PIC is not that much to ask for. It also helps to reduce the number of applicants.

[Climb150]

Well that’s one less competitor for the position!
500 hrs multi PIC is not that much to ask for. It also helps to reduce the number of applicants.

I'm happy to give up my place in the line!

[tossbag]

This is hilarious, there is no pilot shortage in Aus, just a shortage of Oztronaughts.

[aussieflyboy]

If you Caravan Kings are struggling with that ME PIC time Chartair and Aviair are both advertising for twin drivers on the AFAP Jobs page…

[havoste]

If you Caravan Kings are struggling with that ME PIC time Chartair and Aviair are both advertising for twin drivers on the AFAP Jobs page…

The irony being both have multi minimums similar or exceeding the NJS gig.

[aussieflyboy]

The irony being both have multi minimums similar or exceeding the NJS gig.

I was hoping someone would notice that!

Perhaps if these Caravan Kings committed to Aussie GA a tad more rather then grab the min hours and bail then they’d have the experience required to apply for NJS.

[alphacentauri]

Aussieflyboy, your attitude is foolish

[WillieTheWimp]

You’ll find like many Jet Operators in Aus they require 500 multi command to be a Captain. Insurance/Company/AOC/Watever requirement.

False—Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin, and even NJS don't require 500 multi as part of their min experience for command.

I am yet to fly a jet that is mix up, pitch up, power up, gear up, flap up.

Pilot in command in a single pilot light twin is entirely irrelevant in commanding an RPT passenger jet. An IFR caravan pilot has just a good chance of being a good commander, especially given there is a lot more oversight in an IFR Caravan operation.

You better let all those Fedex Caravan pilots know that they are just a Caravan King and not as skilled as a Duchess pilot....you sound like an absolute dunce.

[mince]

I would've thought the job of manager of a brand new shiny aeroplane would usually be filled by eager ones inside the airline, but here they're having to advertise for someone externally? Also can't help but notice the large amount of ramp and freight jobs available in the left hand column.....

This is 3rd time they’ve run that ad.

[cloudsurfng]

Most likely to be filled from mainline apparently

[Climb150]

I went for an interview with Qlink in 2012 and was told I had filled out my logbook incorrectly. Apparently you can't put multiple legs on the same line according to them.
.
That's when I knew I had to leave!

As for commiting to GA. Exactly how many years must a person live in Kununurra to show the required level of commitment?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

so just like all Australian airlines then?

Can you name all the others with a military based training system? Most airlines I’ve worked for train their crew to standard not train guys to a point only to scrub them.

Curious which airlines you’re referring to basically.

[LostWanderer]

I just laugh !! This is typical Australia where some people still believe they invented Aviation. I flew overseas with 300 Hour cadets which came straight onto 320's. Most where perfectly alright operating the aeroplane to a very high standard. They might have lacked on the operationl experience to mange operational problems, but hey, the Captain is supposed to work as well every now and again !!!!!

Unfortunately could not agree more. From my time operating overseas I was stunned how true the myth of the Austronaut really was. It's embarrassing how superior some of these kids think they are because they flew a clapped out 404 up North for a few seasons, yet by most accounts their basic airmanship and abilities were far from impressive. You would hope it is the minority but I sure heard plenty of stories of them.

[airdualbleedfault]

NJS has a long history of operating Regional Jets. Remember NJS was flying Qantas passengers domestically before Qantas had a domestic airline. This is not a GA with Jets company like Network or Alliance.

My understanding is Qantas has slowly destroyed and crushed the happiness of the Tech Crew with multiple Base closures the past few years (the lifestyle bases).

Other then Tasmanian locals everyone is too scared to move to Hobart due to the fear of it closing and Melbourne was full of Cairns and Perth people who hate/hated the place. This is why they are short there and will be for some time.

Will be interesting to see how they will crew the A220 - I suspect they will need to offer retention bonuses soon or they’ll have a bunch of ex Rex cadets running the show.
The tech and cabin crew weren't GA with jets but the management certainly was :ugh:

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The tech and cabin crew weren't GA with jets but the management certainly was :ugh:

It seems that management are totally bewildered by the exodus to….well anywhere else, and now their response it to advertise for what appears to be cadets to fill the gaps.

[aseriesofleftturns]

The blokes defending Aus GA and encouraging people to get (back) into it 😂. Complete losers.

Good on those who actually know their worth. May Australian Aviation reap what it sows (and barring another black swan event, may this just be the beginning).

[aussieflyboy]

The blokes defending Aus GA and encouraging people to get (back) into it 😂. Complete losers.

Good on those who actually know their worth. May Australian Aviation reap what it sows (and barring another black swan event, may this just be the beginning).

Didn't get on the Baron mate?

[Red69]

The Australian GA culture is in part what breeds the Austronaut culture. There's this idea that its a right of passage and if you haven't done it, then somehow you're not deserving of an airline job. It's about time Australia caught up with the rest of the world and realised it's a job that can be done by a cadet, someone from the air force or someone who has gone through GA. There are multiple paths that lead to an airline and there is no 'right' path or no 'better' path either. It's about time Australians got rid of the chip on their shoulders thinking that they are more superior than European/Asian/American pilots.

[aussieflyboy]

The Australian GA culture is in part what breeds the Austronaut culture. There's this idea that its a right of passage and if you haven't done it, then somehow you're not deserving of an airline job. It's about time Australia caught up with the rest of the world and realised it's a job that can be done by a cadet, someone from the air force or someone who has gone through GA. There are multiple paths that lead to an airline and there is no 'right' path or no 'better' path either. It's about time Australians got rid of the chip on their shoulders thinking that they are more superior than European/Asian/American pilots.

I think you’ll find the ‘Austronaut’ culture stems from the RAAF and Cadets. Aussie GA pilots generally drink beer, swim in gorges, discuss international relations with attractive backpackers and get the job done safely.

Back on topic - Rumour has it that they are struggling to get people to turn up the interviews full stop. People accept the interview time and then don’t show!?

[dr dre]

I think you’ll find the ‘Austronaut’ culture stems from the RAAF and Cadets. Aussie GA pilots generally drink beer, swim in gorges, discuss international relations with attractive backpackers and get the job done safely.



Sorry how could the Austronaught culture stem from Australian cadets if those cadets went through the same career path as the way 95% of pilots in the rest of the world are trained? Straight the right hand seat jet or turboprop after initial training without a few thousand hours of bush flying?

”Austronaught” culture is “you need to have several thousand command hours of flying lighties in the bush before getting into the RHS of a multicrew aircraft as this is the ONLY way you’ll ever develop command decision making skills. As all you Euros, Asians and Australian cadets didn’t do it that way then we are better pilots than you, full stop.”

It will probably come to pass the QGPA graduates may be starting at NJS after their initial training. If so then that’s no different to the way it’s been done here for decades.

NJS want 500hrs multi command. Leaving aside the question of us 500hrs multi even necessary to be an airline F/O, it even possible to get that in Australia today? Piston twins like Barons and Chieftains flying less, singles like Airvans and Caravans flying more, PC-12s taking over King Airs, bank running a thing of the past, regional turboprop routes taking over former single pilot twin piston routes, plus the overall decline of GA. Add to that the decimation of foreign pilot training for multi engine instructors.

NJS and other airlines are going to have to adapt to the new reality. You can’t expect the ridiculously high hour requirements of days past when there’s better ways to recruit.

[Blitzkrieger]

It seems that management are totally bewildered by the exodus to….well anywhere else, and now their response it to advertise for what appears to be cadets to fill the gaps.

You forgot to mention the soon to be ex-government pilots who may be parachuted into the left seat. I am led to believe that negotiations to reduce the minimum entry requirements for this cohort is currently being sought.

Toodles

[Red69]

Sorry how could the Austronaught culture stem from Australian cadets if those cadets went through the same career path as the way 95% of pilots in the rest of the world are trained? Straight the right hand seat jet or turboprop after initial training without a few thousand hours of bush flying?

”Austronaught” culture is “you need to have several thousand command hours of flying lighties in the bush before getting into the RHS of a multicrew aircraft as this is the ONLY way you’ll ever develop command decision making skills. As all you Euros, Asians and Australian cadets didn’t do it that way then we are better pilots than you, full stop.”


Bang on. Time for Australian pilots to face the reality of the world wide work force. Pilots can and will be trained to operate RPT aircraft without needing to 'do their time up north'. That will be the hiring future of most local airlines as lucrative overseas contracts continue to lure Australians away. Minimums will continue to drop to remain competitive however that does not mean training and checking standards will drop too.

[morno]

Man, such a sour mob.

There's a reason airlines ask for them. Because supply still far outstrips demand, So why not ask for the highest experience level.

Just because you missed out, doesn’t mean that everyone should be called “Austranauts” :ugh:

[smiling monkey]

It will probably come to pass the QGPA graduates may be starting at NJS after their initial training. If so then that’s no different to the way it’s been done here for decades.



So much for needing 500 multi PIC time. Who makes these random min requirements up?

[HalfGreen]

It will probably come to pass the QGPA graduates may be starting at NJS after their initial training. If so then that’s no different to the way it’s been done here for decades.



Negative on that dre, QGPA is just a stunt created by Qantas so they can be seen as contributing to the training of pilots rather than just poaching and sucking up trained pilots working at other operators. No fresh graduates from the academy are gifted any right hand seat positions.

[Brakerider]

Negative on that dre, QGPA is just a stunt created by Qantas so they can be seen as contributing to the training of pilots rather than just poaching and sucking up trained pilots working at other operators. No fresh graduates from the academy are gifted any right hand seat positions.

I think things have changed…

[aussieflyboy]

NJS Ops manuals require FOs to have 500 multi. When that changes the minimum requirements will change. Until then you caravan kings will have to try elsewhere and the Qantas cadets won’t get a chance with NJS.

[Eaglerocker]

Negative on that dre, QGPA is just a stunt created by Qantas so they can be seen as contributing to the training of pilots rather than just poaching and sucking up trained pilots working at other operators. No fresh graduates from the academy are gifted any right hand seat positions.
Not entirely true as there is a number of QGPA FO in QLINK

[dr dre]

NJS Ops manuals require FOs to have 500 multi.

That can be changed in 5 minutes. Previously a lot of operators required multi command time for new hire FOs, then to take cadets all they needed was a manual amendment done with the stroke of a pen.

[HalfGreen]

I think things have changed…

Nope. Absolutely nothing has been said about this at the QGPA. Source: know cadets

[CaptainInsaneO]

As soon as QGPA used an existing training organisation (FTA) they added no extra pilots to the total amount being produced. You could always go and get a license from FTA before the academy came along...was probably a whole lot cheaper and more fairer too.

and yes, airlines will change their minimums the minute it suits them.

[HalfGreen]

As soon as QGPA used an existing training organisation (FTA) they added no extra pilots to the total amount being produced. You could always go and get a license from FTA before the academy came along...was probably a whole lot cheaper and more fairer too.

and yes, airlines will change their minimums the minute it suits them.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with "no extra pilots being produced" because without Qantas' involvement there is no way FTA would've invested in a new training facility in a completely different state. However, there definitely is merit to the fact that FTA was always existing before the academy.

Aren't minimums usually implemented for insurance reasons? I'm not too well versed when it comes to operators deciding minumums. Would love some insight.

[dr dre]

Aren't minimums usually implemented for insurance reasons? I'm not too well versed when it comes to operators deciding minumums. Would love some insight.

Insurance can be variable. A solid training system with a good reputation may bring hour requirements down. At times Australian carriers have put 200hr TT pilots into the RHS of a 320 or Q400 (and I assume still remain insured), whilst simultaneously another company has required 500 hrs multi command/ 2000hrs TT to sit in the right seat of a Metro (most probably with a far less robust C&T system).

[Sparrows.]

Nope. Absolutely nothing has been said about this at the QGPA. Source: know cadets

Source: known cadets who have left YBWW

“Hi everyone

Thank you to those who have provided an update on what has been happening post graduation.
As you can imagine across the Group we are ramping up our operations to support customer demand.

Resulting from this ramp up, we are reviewing and potentially expanding options for Alumni graduates which goes beyond QantasLink (Turboprops).

Below is an expression of interest (EOI) form for all Alumni to register their interest in Airlines and Basing across the Qantas Group.

You will be required to rank your preferred airline and base. This EOl is open from today and closes midnight Friday 2 September. Note this is non binding and ONLY open for Alumni graduates.

Any questions please reach out.

Cheers
AY”


Options include:
Mainline SO
JQ SO
EFA FO
QLink FO
NJS FO
Network FO
Jetconnect FO

[HalfGreen]

Source: known cadets who have left YBWW

“Hi everyone

Thank you to those who have provided an update on what has been happening post graduation.
As you can imagine across the Group we are ramping up our operations to support customer demand.

Resulting from this ramp up, we are reviewing and potentially expanding options for Alumni graduates which goes beyond QantasLink (Turboprops).

Below is an expression of interest (EOI) form for all Alumni to register their interest in Airlines and Basing across the Qantas Group.

You will be required to rank your preferred airline and base. This EOl is open from today and closes midnight Friday 2 September. Note this is non binding and ONLY open for Alumni graduates.

Any questions please reach out.

Cheers
AY”


Options include:
Mainline SO
JQ SO
EFA FO
QLink FO
NJS FO
Network FO
Jetconnect FO

Thanks for the insight. I don't know anyone that has left the academy yet besides QG12 which just graduated last night. I made sure to make that clear too in my original post. It's good to see that everyone now is hiring.

[HalfGreen]

Insurance can be variable. A solid training system with a good reputation may bring hour requirements down. At times Australian carriers have put 200hr TT pilots into the RHS of a 320 or Q400 (and I assume still remain insured), whilst simultaneously another company has required 500 hrs multi command/ 2000hrs TT to sit in the right seat of a Metro (most probably with a far less robust C&T system).

Right, makes sense. It all comes down to T&C. Less risk I suppose.

[dr dre]

Options include:
Mainline SO
JQ SO
EFA FO
QLink FO
NJS FO
Network FO
Jetconnect FO

Absolutely no surprise.

They aren’t going to create a massive training academy system (eventually suggested they’ll graduate several hundred recruits per year over several locations) and then tell them to all go out into GA and try and find work in an environment where GA is declining, on the hope that in a couple of years they may get a call from QF. Word would spread and no one would apply.

This system was designed to supply the majority of the group’s new hires for the future. People outside of the system will have to accept this, and that traditional pathways will be less common.

[cLeArIcE]

Absolutely no surprise.

They aren’t going to create a massive training academy system (eventually suggested they’ll graduate several hundred recruits per year over several locations) and then tell them to all go out into GA and try and find work in an environment where GA is declining, on the hope that in a couple of years they may get a call from QF. Word would spread and no one would apply.
Don't worry, these cadets will still be able to get the "full GA experience" if they put Network aviation as their number one choice.

[Brakerider]

It has virtually the same affect as having a stack of group pilots on active hold.

every qlink/jq/network pilot who is on active hold at QF Mainline is 1 less pilot going to Atlas/overseas. Golden handcuffs in full effect.

[aussieflyboy]

Plenty of multi jobs on the AFAPs job page this week for those Caravan Kings to get your twin time up.

[neville_nobody]

But are they just creating a captain vacuum?? It's all very well to put low time pilots in the RHS but are they also going to waiver the command requirements too? If they are not all that will happen is low time pilots fill up the RHS with noone able to be promoted. The hard question for the insurers is then going to become are you willing to give someone with barely ATPL requirements, and maybe a few years experience a command on a large turboprop or 100 seat jet??

The whole system to date has been propped up by an excess of experienced pilots. As that diminishes because noone wants to pay market rates, the experience will leave and go overseas leaving a gaping hole in the swiss cheese in this country and a experience gap that this country has never ever seen before.

[bazza stub]

But are they just creating a captain vacuum?? It's all very well to put low time pilots in the RHS but are they also going to waiver the command requirements too? If they are not all that will happen is low time pilots fill up the RHS with noone able to be promoted. The hard question for the insurers is then going to become are you willing to give someone with barely ATPL requirements, and maybe a few years experience a command on a large turboprop or 100 seat jet??

The whole system to date has been propped up by an excess of experienced pilots. As that diminishes because noone wants to pay market rates, the experience will leave and go overseas leaving a gaping hole in the swiss cheese in this country and a experience gap that this country has never ever seen before.

Didnt you get the memo about experience being overrated? Ask anyone with an MBA and they will tell you that all you need is eagerness and a can do attitude and you’ll succeed. Aeroplanes fly themselves etc etc

[SITTINGBULL]

Plenty of multi jobs on the AFAPs job page this week for those Caravan Kings to get your twin time up.

I'm trying to figure out if you have a chip on your shoulder regarding the ol' PropJet, or you are trying to wind people up.

I personally know 5 "Caravan Kings" that have scored average to prime RHS gigs in Oz since May... only 2 had any multi time at all, 1 was Skydive Van only believe it or not!
I know of 13 people with heaps multi time, but they either are still getting strung along on hold files or annoyingly can't even get a look in
I don't know of how many QGPA Wellcampers are getting spots, heaps of them are snooping around Darwin etc. :}
I do know GA pilots are leaving for the U.S by the droves, and are genuinely not looking back...Although i've heard the odd yank on the radio down here every now and then.

[b787q300]

Hi. Could someone please share what is the approx time to command for a new joiner with about 1000hrs jet time? And the likelihood of getting a Brisbane base? Thanks.

[43Inches]

There's no way to answer that with lower end operators. In stable times movement can be small to nothing, in liquid times you would barely make the minimums and get a command, subject to your own ability. That would hold true for NJS, QLink, Rex and anything else below mainline QF/VA. If QF/VA went into administration tomorrow (hypothetical) you would be stuck where you are for a long time most likely. If like now they are recruiting madly, well you will jump the ranks very quick.

[pinkpanther1]

Hi. Could someone please share what is the approx time to command for a new joiner with about 1000hrs jet time? And the likelihood of getting a Brisbane base? Thanks.

Brisbane base = 0% chance.

Very senior pilots in Mel/Syd already keen for Brisbane but no vacancies being advertised.

[beached az]

Sorry if this has already been covered here but has anyone been through the B717 recruitment process recently?
I'd appreciate any info. PM if you'd prefer.

Thanks in advance
BAz :ok:

[JoeTripodi]

NJS is one of, if not the worst jobs in Australia. I would focus efforts on trying to work somewhere else. Just ask any of the 40+ people who have resigned in the last 3 months.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Precisely summed up Joe. I am told that the company is suddenly concerned about the departure rate of pilots. The culture being the main topic of discussion. It will be very interesting to see if they have the stomach to do what’s needed and remove the cancerous components, or if there will be lip service and corporate BS only. Who woulda thunk that treating pilots like **** for the last decade or so would result in an exodus?

[R.Cruizo]

The toxic culture comes from the top of the 717 operation, left over from the Cobham days. Remove them and you solve the problem.

[VC9]

RAAF influence has become too much with the resulting negativity.
Check and Training now more emphasis on checking rather than training, big C rather than big T.
RAAF attitude that lots of failures leads to higher standards.
Such a pity.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

RAAF influence has become too much with the resulting negativity.
Check and Training now more emphasis on checking rather than training, big C rather than big T.
RAAF attitude that lots of failures leads to higher standards.
Such a pity.

It wouldn’t be so bad if that, check to failure, method applied to all, but from all accounts that standard applies only to those below a certain level.

[Snakecharma]

NJS is one of, if not the worst jobs in Australia. I would focus efforts on trying to work somewhere else. Just ask any of the 40+ people who have resigned in the last 3 months.
I can think of at least one jet operator that is far worse.

[WillieTheWimp]

Really...who? Do they also have a command failure rate in excess of 70 percent with 4000 total hour DECs on their way?

[dr dre]

Really...who? Do they also have a command failure rate in excess of 70 percent with 4000 total hour DECs on their way?

That’s horrific. Any T&C system that produces that failure rate is severely broken, and those running it need to lose their jobs. Almost sounds like a ploy by T&C staff to recruit their mates in as DEC over long term company FOs.

[bazza stub]

Really...who? Do they also have a command failure rate in excess of 70 percent with 4000 total hour DECs on their way?

Aren’t THOSE 4000 hours worth at least double normal flying hours though? I mean a deployment in a narrow body jet to yet another capital city airport is on a whole different level to what the rest of us do. :rolleyes:

[dr dre]

Aren’t THOSE 4000 hours worth at least double normal flying hours though? I mean a deployment in a narrow body jet to yet another capital city airport is on a whole different level to what the rest of us do. :rolleyes:


I would find it difficult to believe 70% of F/Os who had been flying that same jet in the same company on the same routes to the same SOPs for at least several years “couldn’t” be trained to the required command standard, whereas pilots who have never been in that company or flown that type or flown those routes or even flown in an airline before can just waltz in and (presumably) be at the required standard in minimum time……

I call BS on that…….

[aussieflyboy]

Aren’t THOSE 4000 hours worth at least double normal flying hours though? I mean a deployment in a narrow body jet to yet another capital city airport is on a whole different level to what the rest of us do. :rolleyes:

The multi hours obtained from operating a sophisticated heavy piston twin is worth 5 times any military time is worth.

[VC9]

The RAAF culture (cancer) has really taken hold. Jobs for the boys is the next step. Unless the cancer is cut out swiftly it will only get worse.

[bazza stub]

The multi hours obtained from operating a sophisticated heavy piston twin is worth 5 times any military time is worth.

Mate, it was sarcasm.

[Swanrider]

A huge pity to see, VC9.
The same type of culture (RAAF / RAF) of "the fast jet pilot" ruined Etihad and British Midland also.
It is cancer and detrimental to modern-day passenger operations not to mention company and flight CRM.

[davidclarke]

That’s horrific. Any T&C system that produces that failure rate is severely broken, and those running it need to lose their jobs. Almost sounds like a ploy by T&C staff to recruit their mates in as DEC over long term company FOs.

I would argue that any training dept with a failure rate over 10% should be doing some serious soul searching. If it has gotten to 70% as claimed, then the only real option would be to clear the dept out and start again.

If QF got word of the failure rate at NJS then then I’d be very worried about my job that dept.

[Icarus2001]

I would argue that any training dept with a failure rate over 10% should be doing some serious soul searching. If it has gotten to 70% as claimed, then the only real option would be to clear the dept out and start again.


I completely agree. Imagine if there was a government department that supervised aviation safety, just the sort of thing they should be looking at. Although they would argue failures are good, keeps the riff non RAAF out.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Or maybe.............theyre just not very good.

[dr dre]

Or maybe.............theyre just not very good.

Rubbish.

NJS hasn’t expanded massively in recent years so quick progression and recently recruited hires coming up for command too quickly wouldn’t be an issue. This is an established airline that has been flying domestic and regional routes for decades so no new start woes.

The current FOs have been there at least several years. Flying the 717 multiple legs per day, no shortage of sectors. They’re familiar with the route structure, the aircraft, the SOPs. I’ll assume they’ve passed all their FO cyclic sessions without much trouble, as any issues there should be identified and sorted out before command training. The rewards of command will entice most people to put the work in to succeed.

But what you also need are good trainers to train people. The feedback seems to be they are now too focused on the Check rather than the Training . I come from a position that most people are good enough to be a Captain, and if most aren’t getting through then there are systemic problems in the training department. The mentality of “they just aren’t good enough” should be consigned to the RAAF tbh.

The culture of “the more people we fail the better that makes our standards” is horrendous and should be eradicated from aviation. The job of a trainer is to train a new Captain, not to fail them to look better and get your mate in as DEC.

I’ve never been in any company where 70% of FOs are unable to be trained to Captain. Totally unfeasible, so 70% of NJS FO’s aren’t bad pilots. It’s the system that is the problem. Nepotism in this case is not only bad for the psyche of a pilot unfairly failed on training but also has issues with CRM. Can you imagine a long term company FO, who put the work in but then was unfairly failed on command training, having to sit next to a DEC who’s never flown the aircraft before, let alone in an airline before but got the role by being mates with the training department? I can foresee all kinds of problems arising then…..

[aussieflyboy]

Is it true this company has a “Command Interview” prior to being offered training as a Captain and this is where they are failing?

[morno]

Is it true this company has a “Command Interview” prior to being offered training as a Captain and this is where they are failing?

Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t have a command interview?

[havick]

Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t have a command interview?

Just because it’s a thing in Australia, doesn’t make it necessary.

[aussieflyboy]

Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t have a command interview?

It’s an interesting concept. Are they asking questions along the lines of decision making processes that a Captain might have to make? Are they asking technical questions at a Captain level or FO level?

In the event that someone fails a “command interview” do they get training to improve ensuring they are ready for another attempt?

It sounds like a good way to weed out people you don’t like that’s for sure. Just ask them how many wheel nuts a BAE146 has on the right wheel and when they fail to answer…. Unfortunately it is the opinion of the management team that you have not met the technical prowess that our company requires you to meet to operate as Captain…


Do they hire Direct Entry Captains? Do they do a seperate command interview?

[Going Nowhere]

Sunstate and Eastern have a Command Standards process that must be completed prior to Command Upgrade Training. It consists of a Sim, Interview and Line Check. It's mainly about gauging the F/O's current level of Knowledge, Situational Awareness and Management and any deficiencies that need focus.

It's not common, but occasionally someone will fail one element of the process. It does not prohibit their ability to bid for a command but in a perfect world, the Company would then formulate a training plan to address any deficiencies prior to commencing any Upgrade Training.

In some cases, it's the foot up the ass that the odd F/O needs who thinks that just because you can keep the plane upright, that you'll sail through the Upgrade Training.

[VC9]

Hopefully those that are leaving are giving a full and frank assessment of the Check and Training department in their departure interview. Unfortunately, it would probably fall on deaf ears.

[stillcallozhome]

Just because it’s a thing in Australia, doesn’t make it necessary.

Exactly! Austranauts’ mentality. How does the rest of the world operate aircraft without this process? :ugh:

[Icarus2001]

Bring back Hazard?

[Chocks Away]

"...they're focused on the Check rather than the Training"

"Precisely summed up Joe. I am told that the company is suddenly concerned about the departure rate of pilots. The culture being the main topic of discussion. It will be very interesting to see if they have the stomach to do what’s needed and remove the cancerous components, or if there will be lip service and corporate BS only. Who woulda thunk that treating pilots like **** for the last decade or so would result in an exodus?"

Anything further to report from the above?
I hope Australian operators have learnt (or are learning) as all the major and second-tier airlines, worldwide now have DEC's on all their fleets. Korean, M.E., Europe, Asia... pick a country.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Some of the popular overseas alternatives that guys are going for are hinting at Aussie bases. If this materialises it will push those who are teetering on leaving over the edge and drive the departure rate into high gear. I think all Australian airlines, not just NJS, will have to join the rest of the world in providing significant inducements if they want to retain staff. And as usual, the corporate geniuses are in a severe reality lag state.

[RealSatoshi]

I think all Australian airlines, not just NJS, will have to join the rest of the world in providing significant inducements if they want to retain staff. And as usual, the corporate geniuses are in a severe reality lag state.
...and more so as they start hoovering up Captains :cool:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1346x368/screenshot_2022_11_18_at_11_39_52_3af48f0d69c1218cfb578d7741 c3b3f40fbff1b8.png

[aussieflyboy]

The 500 Multi requirement makes sense with the amount of engines these blokes go through…

[redsnail]

The command interview is used at NetJets Europe and at easyJet. It's not a guarantee you'll pass this as a few of our colleagues have found out. Before spending the money on the rest of the process, the company just wants to see that the candidate has looked at the manuals, has a good grasp of what's expected, knows the company ethos and is taking it seriously.

[dr dre]

The command interview is used at NetJets Europe and at easyJet. It's not a guarantee you'll pass this as a few of our colleagues have found out. Before spending the money on the rest of the process, the company just wants to see that the candidate has looked at the manuals, has a good grasp of what's expected, knows the company ethos and is taking it seriously.

Difference being “a few” don’t get through the command interview at those EU airlines, whereas it’s the “vast majority” who are supposedly not getting through at NJS. Which is unconscionable really. I’ve never been in an operation where 70% of F/O’s aren’t ready to upgrade after several years in the RHS.

Even the union is now talking about F/Os not being treated fairly during command upgrades. Stinks of nepotism.

[JoeTripodi]

These guys have had 4 severe damage engine failures in the last 6 months. CASA ? Qantas ? How are they still flying?

[KAPAC]

If military types are failing %70 of their pilots they’d better be still in the military or that organisation is on borrowed time .

[KBNA]

I am surprised this operation hasn’t been shut down. 4 Engine failures in 5 months is ****** Rumour is there have been more not included in the latest email sent by Mr Military.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Where is CASA?

Where they always are, plus it’s the weekend.

[dr dre]

If military types are failing %70 of their pilots they’d better be still in the military or that organisation is on borrowed time .

No because apparently they’re getting in their ex RAAF mates as DEC instead of long term company FOs failed in this “command interview” seemingly instituted as a ploy to free up space for their old mates. That’s where the outrage is. Even the union is now talking about it being a major problem for FOs and will seriously harm their retention of FOs in the long term.

[Australia2]

Don't worry, these cadets will still be able to get the "full GA experience" if they put Network aviation as their number one choice.


That’s bloody funny mate.

[Gerg]

Absolutely no surprise.

They aren’t going to create a massive training academy system (eventually suggested they’ll graduate several hundred recruits per year over several locations) and then tell them to all go out into GA and try and find work in an environment where GA is declining, on the hope that in a couple of years they may get a call from QF. Word would spread and no one would apply.

This system was designed to supply the majority of the group’s new hires for the future. People outside of the system will have to accept this, and that traditional pathways will be less common. As I am currently working in GA with many QGPA guys and girls, this is exactly the case. I'm assuming that close to all of them have put in expressions of interest, and yet I know of at least 10 up here in the top end that have been searching for flying roles, with barely half of them being successful.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Fast, cheap, good. QF still think they can have all 3.