Ejection Seats - Typhoon FGR4 & Hawk T1

[RAFEngO74to09]

(2) Royal Air Force on Twitter: "We have been notified of a technical issue which may affect the safe operation of our ejector seats in Typhoon and @rafredarrows aircraft. We have paused non-essential flying as a temporary safety precaution until the situation is better understood. https://t.co/iDqOqnw88w" / Twitter

[CAEBr]

If it affects the early Mk10B seats in the TMk1 and the Mk16 seats in Typhoon then it must almost certainly affect the lightweight Mk10 seats in the T2. Irrespective of foreign operators and their decision, the Leeming based Mk167s operating under MoD approval would also be affected unless there it is a supply chain issue that allows those to be treated separately.
Only other question is whether the F35 seat is similarly affected. Not good having all the frontline fast jets affected by the same issue.

[SLXOwft]

RAFAT retweeted the announcement so I suspect they won't be, nor I expect will they be with the BOBMF at Bray (Co Wicklow) on Sunday.

[RAFEngO74to09]

From Luftwaffe: "We have been informed by the manufacturing company that a technical problem could affect the proper functioning of the ejection seats in our jets. As a precautionary measure, we have suspended training flight operations with the Eurofighter."

Team Luftwaffe on Twitter: "Wir wurden von der Herstellerfirma darüber informiert, dass ein technisches Problem die einwandfreie Funktion der Schleudersitze in unseren Jets beeinträchtigen könnte. Als Vorsichtsmaßnahme haben wir den Ausbildungsflugbetrieb mit dem Eurofighter ausgesetzt. https://t.co/VCgYWT0Zaz" / Twitter

[RAFEngO74to09]

Germany suspended non-operational flying before the UK and initially included Tornado as well until it was confirmed that the component concerned came from a different production line.

[Wokkafans]

Normal service resumed for the Reds but not Typhoon. .

https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce/status/1550585704639602688?s=20&t=lNLHqvhS65voctL-3bWyAA

[Diff Tail Shim]

Could be as simple as a dodgy batch of Bang. The investigation probably physically confirming the batches fitted to seats. Something that an accurate maintenance date system should highlight the offending batches. If the crayon eaters have done so properly. Nah, physical check.

[melmothtw]

US Navy now reporting the same issue https://twitter.com/NAVAIRNews/status/1551963828178526208

[TEEEJ]

I noted a few Typhoons flying today out of RAF Coningsby. Typhoons also reported flying from RAF Lossiemouth.

[MG]

ETPS’s PC21s are affected. It’s a problem with the cartridges, as has been suggested.

[airsound]

(US) Navy Times is reporting problems there as well
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/07/27/navy-and-marine-corps-replacing-faulty-aircraft-ejection-seat-components/?SToverlay=2002c2d9-c344-4bbb-8610-e5794efcfa7d

The issue involves cartridge actuated devices, or CADs, which deploy a parachute when aviators pull their ejection handle (https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/11/09/pilot-error-leadership-failures-and-faulty-ejection-seat-led-to-fatal-june-f-16-crash-at-shaw/).

All told, the issue was found in the F/A-18B/C/D Hornet, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the E/A-18G Growler, as well as the T-45 Goshawk and F-5 Tiger II training aircraft.

airsound

PS Sorry, missed melmothtw above

[RAFEngO74to09]

If anyone has a video caption translating tool, this Budneswehr video describes the problem

https://twitter.com/i/status/1552655967816282112

[Diff Tail Shim]

(US) Navy Times is reporting problems there as well
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/07/27/navy-and-marine-corps-replacing-faulty-aircraft-ejection-seat-components/?SToverlay=2002c2d9-c344-4bbb-8610-e5794efcfa7d


airsound

PS Sorry, missed melmothtw above
My post seems to have been correct as well.

[SpazSinbad]

F-35s in the frame now: https://breakingdefense.com/2022/07/air-force-grounding-f-35s-over-ejection-seat-concerns/

[SpazSinbad]

29 Jul 2022 "...The Air Force says it has enough replacement explosive cartridges in stock to replace the faulty ones, a service official said. " https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/07/air-force-grounds-most-f-35s-us-due-faulty-ejection-seats/375125/

HubbaHubba: Navy has completed F-35 ejection seat inspections; Marines at 90 percent - Breaking Defense (https://breakingdefense.com/2022/07/navy-marines-join-air-force-in-grounding-f-35s-for-ejection-seat-inspections/?_ga=2.169709224.826925854.1659115359-200209953.1646904567)

Lots of detail in this report - for example: "...ACC said it has known about the potential problem since April, when a routine inspection found a defective cartridge at Hill Air Force Base, Utah.... The Air Force has about 475 F-35s. A USAF spokesperson said “this is properly called a stand-down” rather than a grounding because the aircraft can resume flying after an inspection shows that they’re safe to operate...." 29 Jul 2022 https://www.airforcemag.com/air-force-f-35s-grounded-as-search-for-faulty-ejection-seat-parts-widens/

[ORAC]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/07/29/air-force-grounds-f-35as-as-ejection-seat-issue-threatens-fighter-jets-worldwide/

….The military tested 2,700 F-35 ejection seat cartridges and discovered three failures as of Wednesday, the briefing summary said. Service officials declined to confirm or deny the summary’s narrative of events.

Roberts said the problem was unique to a particular cartridge number and to the F-35, but did not answer how many defective parts have turned up so far. The U.S.-led Joint Strike Fighter program conducted a “short inspection” and determined that the jets could return to flight, he said.

“Martin-Baker has been providing the [prime aircraft contractors like Lockheed Martin] and multiple [government] agencies with supporting data to prove that all other aircraft may be excluded,” Roberts said. “Outside the F-35, not a single anomaly has been discovered worldwide as a result of the forensic investigation which continues at pace.…..

On Wednesday, the Air Force temporarily stood down its T-38 Talon and T-6 Texan II training aircraft due to the same ejection seat worries. Most were slated to returned to service on Friday, but nearly 300 aircraft that may be affected by faulty cartridges will remain on the ground. That comprises about 40% of the T-38 fleet and 15% of the T-6 fleet, including planes at each undergraduate pilot training base and Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida.…

[Lonewolf_50]

I heard through the grapevine a rumor that the Meridian (Mississippi)-based Training Wing One had to cancel their up coming carrier landing quals (initial arrested landings) for the T-45 students due to this ejection seat disaster, and that the Air Force T-38 wings are running into similar problems with mass groundings. The reason I heard was that some seats were found to have no propellant. (But since I don't work on the MB's and have this second/third hand there may be some errors in transmission).
If you pull the handle and there's no propellant, there's no ejection and you are dead.
WTF, Martin Baker? :confused:

“Outside the F-35, not a single anomaly has been discovered worldwide as a result of the forensic investigation which continues at pace...
What I had heard was that there was an entire lot of seats that was bad. But I am happy to learn more as all of this is second and third hand at best.

[sycamore]

I` m guessing that `M-B`would not deliver `seats ready to go` out of the box.AIUI cartridges/propellant have a `shelf-life` and an `installed life` and it would be up to the Operating Authority/Unit to prepare seats for fitment.
Are the seats manufactured in the US by a Contractor under licence?

[SpazSinbad]

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/07/air-force-grounding-f-35s-over-ejection-seat-concerns/
"...The [US] Navy’s Naval Surface Warfare Center Indian Head Division (NSWC IHD) supplies CADs and Propellant Actuated Devices for the entirety of the joint force, including the Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps aircraft...."
_______________

https://www.defensenews.com/news/your-air-force/2022/07/29/air-force-grounds-f-35as-as-ejection-seat-issue-threatens-fighter-jets-worldwide/
“...During a routine maintenance inspection at Hill [Air Force Base, Utah,] in April ‘22, an anomaly was discovered with one of the seat cartridge actuated devices in the F-35 seat,” Steve Roberts, a spokesperson for seat manufacturer Martin-Baker, said Friday. “This was quickly traced back to a gap in the manufacturing process, which was addressed and changed.”

Cartridges are the ejection seat component that explode to propel an aviator out of the cockpit and prompts their parachute to open. The defective part was loose and missing the magnesium powder used to ignite the propellant that shoots someone to safety, Roberts said.

A maintainer inspecting an F-35 found that an ejection cartridge felt suspiciously light, according to an unconfirmed summary of a briefing within the Air Force’s Air Education and Training Command obtained by Air Force Times. After a closer look, the cartridge turned out to be missing its explosive charge that would lift someone to safety.

The military tested 2,700 F-35 ejection seat cartridges and discovered three failures as of Wednesday, the briefing summary said. Service officials declined to confirm or deny the summary’s narrative of events.

Roberts said the problem was unique to a particular cartridge number and to the F-35, but did not answer how many defective parts have turned up so far. The U.S.-led Joint Strike Fighter program conducted a “short inspection” and determined that the jets could return to flight, he said...."

[tucumseh]

I` m guessing that `M-B`would not deliver `seats ready to go` out of the box.AIUI cartridges/propellant have a `shelf-life` and an `installed life` and it would be up to the Operating Authority/Unit to prepare seats for fitment.

Correct. M-B have never delivered a seat with cartridges fitted.

The various statements don't make it clear if it's the percussion cap or the filling, neither of which M-B make. However, it may be they're seen to deliver the assembled cartridge. The important thing is that, while annoying, the system picked the problem up.

[superplum]

Correct. M-B have never delivered a seat with cartridges fitted.

The various statements don't make it clear if it's the percussion cap or the filling, neither of which M-B make. However, it may be they're seen to deliver the assembled cartridge. The important thing is that, while annoying, the system picked the problem up.

Probably completely unrelated but:

Martin-Baker Careers | Pyro Inspector (ciphr-irecruit.com) (https://mbapeople.ciphr-irecruit.com/Applicants/vacancy/196/Pyro-Inspector)

Does anypne remember the days when the carts were filled using plastic measuring cups (apparently)!

[ORAC]

Are they looking for a young bright spark?

[SpazSinbad]

"...Tripoli has been embarked with up to 20 F-35Bs. Marine officials told USNI News on Friday [29 Jul 2022] that its F-35Bs were not grounded as part of the ongoing ejection seat problems. Specific lots of ejection seats across the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps — including F-35s — were found to have defective components. The services are in the process of clearing the seats for service with repairs. “Currently, Marine Corps F-35Bs are not grounded, and over 90 percent of the inspections on Marine Corps ejection seat cartridge actuating devices are now complete,” Marine Maj. Jay Hernandez told USNI News on Friday." https://news.usni.org/2022/08/01/carrier-uss-ronald-reagan-two-f-35b-big-decks-operating-near-taiwan-as-pelosi-arrives-in-singapore-china-renews-threats 01 Aug 2022

[oldmansquipper]

Glad to see you’ve still got an eye on the ball Tuc! 😉👏

So, just to recap. A sharp witted plumber (isn’t that an oxymoron?) spotted a potential problem, reported it and action was taken to resolve it PDQ? The ‘System’ working as advertised, it seems to me.

Of course, ‘The meejah’ will be pissed off because no nuns, nor balls of fire were seen by a Ms Jade Hoooeva of Birkenhead. ‘Aces officianados’ will make as much political capital out of it as they can, and pyro manufacturers (whoever they are….some outsourced to comply with US contract requirements, maybe?) will be nervous.

Personally I’m glad they found it.

Reminds me of many a time back in the EA, when a unit rep would call in to the office on a Tuesday saying “…..I’ve got a problem…what are you doing about it? “ Despite the DD bangin on about it 24/7, (love you George) It was always Friday afternoon before we were able to push out the warning instruction….😉

happydaze.

[SpazSinbad]

Another view of a complicated scenario it would appear: U.S. Air Force F-35s Join Grounded List With Martin-Baker Flaw | Aviation Week Network (https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/us-air-force-f-35s-join-grounded-list-martin-baker-flaw) 29 Jul 2022 "...Although the US16 seat is affected, the Air Force said on July 28 there were no plans to ground the F-35A fleet due to the problem. The US16 [F-35 MB seat] has dual-redundant initiators for the cartridges, which the Air Force said mitigated the safety risk.... But the service decided to stand-down F-35As on July 29 in order to expedite the process of inspecting all of the cartridges exposed to the production defect, an Air Combat Command spokesman says...."

[SpazSinbad]

All US Air Force F-35s are flying again after ejection seat checks (defensenews.com) (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/08/15/all-us-air-force-f-35s-are-flying-again-after-ejection-seat-checks/) 16 Aug 2022 "...Service technicians inspected 706 cartridges from 349 F-35s, as well as additional supplies of spare cartridges, Air Combat Command spokeswoman Alexi Worley said in an email Monday. The Air Force has about 376 F-35As in its fleet. Of those cartridges, inspectors felt four could have problems and were replaced. Worley said further inspection of those four suspect cartridges showed they were not defective...."
&
"...Martin-Baker, the company that manufactures the seats, also found two more defective cartridges in its own stores in April. The company also found, during a quality check that followed, that its production line was creating defective cartridges...."
&
"...Martin-Baker said in a statement to Air Force Times on Aug. 7 that ejection seat checks the military started in July uncovered no defective parts in any aircraft, leaving the one found at Hill Air Force Base in April the only bad cartridge found in an F-35."

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

"The defective part was loose and missing the magnesium powder used to ignite the propellant that shoots someone to safety, Roberts said."

From that I take it only a very small amount of powder was missing. It would take someone with superhuman powers to say if a few grams of powder were present or not in a component that weighs a few kilos - give or take?

I strongly suspect the method of discovery was not "God-dang it Bert, this seems a mighty load lighter than it should be".