Access to cargo bay

[seifly]

Helping a writer friend with a book - I currently fly the 737, he wants to know if there is access from the passenger cabin to the cargo that a man could fit thru. I explained there is a blow out panel, but wasn't sure if a man could fit through it. Do any of you fly a large plane that has access like what you see in the movies? Not a ATR or Q400.

[dixi188]

The A300 had access to the forward belly hold via the under floor avionics bay below the cockpit. There was a hatch behind the captains seat to get below and there were two doors from there into the hold. Most of the time you wouldn't be able to get anywhere as the hold would be full of containers. I remember frightening the loaders by opening one of the doors one day whilst doing a pre-flight check.
I think the DC-10 had the same arrangement,
I don't know if newer types have such access.

[tdracer]

I don't think there is such access on the 737 - whenever we had to go into the electronics bay on the 737 or 757, we came in from outside.
Widebodies - 747/767/777 all have an access panel just aft of the flightdeck under some carpet in first class (obviously lower deck on the 747). I assume the 787 is the same but no first hand experience.
Getting from the E-bay to the cargo bay is a different matter...

[Prober]

The old Vickers Vanguard (VC9) had access to the forward cargo bay from the flight-deck. There was carpet from the flight-deck door to the back of the 3rd pilot’s seat. If rolled back, this revealed a hatch in the floor which went down into the (IIRC) radio bay. From there another hatch went into the hydraulics bay and a third one took you into the forward hold.

We had occasion to utilize this one day when going on an inaugural flight to Budapest from Heathrow. As this was the first flight, we carried an airborne spanner as there was no station staff as yet. About twenty minutes after take off, the cabin chief came up and said that a first class passenger had just remembered that he had left his brief case in the forward lounge. Could we please alert the company and try to retrieve it? As we were still within range, we gave ‘Mother’ a call and passed the information. 5 minutes later we got a call back to say that the dispatcher has spotted it and (this being in the days before security), he had chucked it into the forward hold just before push-back. This gave the flying spanner something to do, so up came the carpet and the hatch and down went the engineer. There were several bangs and bumps and a certain amount of dust and then – lo and behold – up came the spanner clutching the briefcase!

We rang for the cabin chief and explained that we had sent a messenger back and here was the briefcase. We never explained.

Prober

[jethro15]

Prober

That's sent me to bed with a smile on my face. Ah, the ol' days.................

[grizzled]

Prober
I couldn't agree more with jethro15 -- your anecdote made my day! Thanks!

[By George]

To Answer the original question there is no access to the cargo bays on the 737. The freighter conversions vary in design depending on who completed the mod. AEI, IAI and PEMCO all have blow-out panels either side of the 9G bulkhead but they are not entry points to anywhere and only designed to equalise pressure either side of the bulkhead. I have not seen the 737-800 conversion yet but I can't imagine it to be any different.

[Pilot DAR]

In my airline days in the early eighties, my airline flew three 707-320C's. One of our flights departed, and for reasons not offered to ATC, asked to remain below 10,000 feet for the first 30 minutes of the flight. Quizzically, request approved. It came out much later that "someone" had forgotten to remove, and check removed, the nosegear down lock pin. Rather than dump fuel, and return, just to pull the pin, the flight engineer went down into the forward hold, then removed the pressure panel giving access to the nose gear, reached out, pulled the pin, and re-installed the pressure panel. With that, the nose gear was retraced, and the flight continued normally.

[Globally Challenged]

Most business jets of Super-mid size and up (i.e. Challenger 300) have a full size door from the rear lav into the hold

[pilotms]

In the Lockheed TriStar L1011 you had at least access from the Cabin to the Aft Cargo Hold, as well as through the Avionic Bay to the Foreward Cargo Hold.

[A319]

Good old A340 ✅

[dixi188]

Good old A340 ✅
What do you mean "OLD"?
As far as I'm concerned the A340 is "NEW". I was on the A300.

[mustafagander]

Hey Pilot DAR,
Nice story mate. How exactly did your hero gain access to the NLG which is so very far forward of the FWD cargo hold in the B707-300 series? Where exactly is this "pressure panel" giving access to the NLG many metres away? What about the NLG pin? Remember that the one used at all terminals in the world for departures was the "bicycle pin". This is a long metal rod with a gear pin on the end of it and a piece of metal like a bicycle handlebars to enable the pin to be fitted and removed.
Sorry but that's bulldust. Simply impossible even if the "pressure panel" existed.
Oh yeah, I hold B707 Command rating, FEO rating and eng/airframe licences on this type.

[Pilot DAR]

I hold B707 Command rating, FEO rating and eng/airframe licences on this type.

Fair enough, I do not. When the explanation was sought as the to the reason for asking for "below 10,000 feet" for a half an hour after takeoff, and routing to accommodate that, that was the explanation given to ATC, whose department head told me. I knew the crew involved, and knew them to be resourceful and motivated to minimize the effect of an omission, but I did not fact check the report myself. As a very junior staff member at the time, my prying into the details of what had been reported would have been inappropriate, so I accepted as reported....

[Doors To Manuel]

Funnily enough I read a thriller fiction a couple of years back which included this very thing on a 777. If you like a bit of aeronautical action look for 'Taken Flight' on Amazon. A page turner!

[Brake Fan]

Mustafagander
Access to the NLG on the B707 is from the avionics compartment, via the hatch in the flight deck floor, behind the left hand seat, where you would have sat if you had a command rating and to your left if you were a FEO, not sure about the pressure panel, but there are viewing windows to do a visual check for down and locked. Also behind the NLG housing there is stowage for the "Johnson Bar". This was used as the last ditch effort to lower the gear when you couldn't get it down hydraulically or by the manual release handles on the on the flight deck floor.
All the 707 gear pins that I have ever seen looked nothing like the one you describe, they were all of the large round "Pip Pin" type with a big red "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" banner usually unreadable due to being covered in oil.
I have heard the story of the Load Master, Flying Spanner, Flight Engineer, whoever was telling the story, of how they managed to open the external avionics hatch just behind the NLG bay (which can be opened from inside as well) and stretch out of the aeroplane and remove the pin in flight. Not sure if it was really possible to reach the pin from there, as I always made sure I removed it on my walk round, so never had to try.

[Mike6567]

The 707 had access to the forward baggage hold but not allowed to use it in flight.

[pilotmike]

I heard a Rumour there might be some News. Which is it?

[NutLoose]

VC 10 had a hatch in the fwd galley floor that dropped you down via a step into the avionics bay with a low corridor that lead you aft to a door at the rear and into the fwd cargo bay, there was another smaller hatch where you could get outside in the bottom of the floor, or of course the baggage bay door. I once after stowing the engine blanks came forward to be met with the a young Air Loadmaster in a skirt straddling the hatch while making the see off guys a coffee.. a quick cough had everyone in stiches and a slightly red faced young lady.

external hatch in the floor


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x672/bottomhatch_9a6892d7de5b92747e45f0561fa7974d0f78d924.jpg

[blue up]

Boeing 337 had a floor hatch in the flightdeck, one that went aft to the main deck that, on the Guppy, had a set of stairs and at least one lift-out access panel.
Nobody mentioned the 747?
In extremis, one could fairly easily chop through the laminated fibre boards that nearly all Airliners use for flooring. Fire-axe will do it. Hard to explain to Eng afterwards, though.

[banjobill]

The 747 MEC (under the first class cabin and accessible through the floor ) had a large panel on either side to give access to the fwd freight bay. Unfortunately each panel had a zillion fasteners and once open you faced the fwd end of the leading container. Not normally an option.

[oo_chris_oo]

The A350 has a cargo access door.
youtube-> watch?v=LxS2RR-Vx_s
Will not be useful if a container is just behind it.

[Dan Winterland]

Nutloose - Reef the VC10. I've used this to exit and enter the aircraft in the absence of steps on more than one occasion. Also, it was possible to get into the rear cargo hold through a door between the rear toilets into the 'boiler room' on the ones that weren't converted to tankers. In the film 'Catch me if you Can', Frank Abignale was seen to escape from a B707 through a toilet at JFK. This would have been impossible. In the book, he mentions it was actually a VC10 where it would have been quite possible, although quite a long drop from the rear cargo hatch.

I can also confirm the Airbus A300, A310, A330, A340 and the B747 have doors from the radio electrics bay into the forward baggage hold.

[blue up]

Dan.

Congratulations for getting "...escape from a B707 through a toilet " and "...a long drop from the rear cargo hatch." into the same paragraph! :)

[N707ZS]

Did a widebody have a lift for the cabin crew to go bellow somewhere?

[Pilot DAR]

Our two L1011's had a lift to a below decks galley, and stairs to a below deck lounge.

[dixi188]

Some DC-10s had lifts to a lower galley in part of the fwd cargo hold. Laker and World airways I know of.

[Ollie Onion]

This video would suggest you can access the cargo compartment and nose wheel on the A350z however if the Cargo hold was full you would have trouble.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LxS2RR-Vx_s

[blue up]

A couple of the Tommy Cook A300s (Deceased, Manchester, 2020) had downstarirs bogs with a hatch through to the cargo bay. I never saw them in service but we used the hatches when we were ripping them up for spares.

[mustafagander]

Brake Fan,
Thanks for the geography lesson on the B707. The grating to access lower 41 is indeed behind Capt seat. To open it you needed to be a few clicks fwd on the Capt seat so the obs seat could be tilted fwd to clear the grating as it was lifted to open. This grating is under the fwd end of the Nav table.
About the NLG pins on the B707. There are 2 used. The 1 I described is the only 1 you would dare use for towing coz it physically fits into both sides of the knuckle on the oleo brace and prevents any movement towards retraction. Because the pin fits through the brace knuckle it is towards the top of the NLG well and hence quite a way from the ground, a couple of metres at least. Enter the bicycle handle on the opposite end of the long rod from the actual pin so you have control over it to guide the pin into the knuckle. The handle bar bit rested on the cover of the NLG steering actuators and was an excellent place from which to hang your red flag. The other, I think alluded to by the story, is a little bayonet T handle inserted on the left side of the NLG on the skin of the a/c about half way along the NLG cutout as I recall it. I also recall that it loads up the knuckle to prevent movement in the retract direction. Most unreliable bit of kit. The T handle was only used for static loads like parking and was simply unsafe for towing. Been a long time.
As for reaching the bayonet T handle from the lower 41 external hatch, forget it. Way too far.

[Jhieminga]

Nutloose - Reef the VC10. I've used this to exit and enter the aircraft in the absence of steps on more than one occasion. Also, it was possible to get into the rear cargo hold through a door between the rear toilets into the 'boiler room' on the ones that weren't converted to tankers.
It's a hidden door in the trim of the rear toilets actually. This photo shows the one in the middle toilet, there are similar ones in the two outboard toilets.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/641x1000/toilet_door_094cf20643dbdc339ae1080f818eb7688d654d31.jpg

The trapdoor in the galley is on the RH side on the Standard VC10s and on the LH side on Supers, as far as I can tell. The photo below is from a type 1103 Standard, the RAF tankers had a relatively simple hatch without the surrounding panel and bracing as shown here.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/804x1000/galley_trapdoor_c83ba8dbb7e4d2f7cf4953f4a681846d8695b896.jpg
The interesting bit about the 'Catch me if you Can' scene is that you can indeed get into the rear cargo hold from the back 'boiler room' as indicated, but even though Frank claims to have done it, I don't know how he could have opened the cargo door from the inside... unless he exited through the small hatch at the extreme rear end of the cargo hold. From there, it is a significant drop to the tarmac!

BTW, the photo Nutloose posted above was used to illustrate the story of Heather Robinson's dash in the 1969 Daily Mail Trans-Atlantic Air Race, see here: https://www.vc10.net/Memories/DailyMailRace.html

[WhatsaLizad?]

While I don't care about information about retired fleet types, those supplying detailed information about cargo access on current passenger fleet types have to be the most clueless I've ever read in terms of situational awareness on this forum.

[tdracer]

The 747 MEC (under the first class cabin and accessible through the floor ) had a large panel on either side to give access to the fwd freight bay. Unfortunately each panel had a zillion fasteners and once open you faced the fwd end of the leading container. Not normally an option.

The current Air Force One 747s have an actual stairwell to the forward cargo compartment - there is refrigerated storage down there so the galley's have access to all sorts of fresh and frozen foods in the cargo area (there is also stairway access to the aft cargo area, although I don't remember why). I don't know if it's accessible in the 'presidential' configuration, but when I was troubleshooting the 'green' aircraft, you could leave the flight deck, go down two flights of stairs, go around the side and into the electronics bay.
When we were working on the first AF1, they only had one functional PIMU (Propulsion Interface and Monitor Unit - each handled two engines). So I'd go down to the E-bay to check for faults on one side, then go back up to the flight deck, pull the associated breakers, go back down to the E-bay, re-rack the PIMU from left to right (or visa-versa), go back up two flights to restore the breakers, then go back down to the E-bay to read the faults on the other side.
Fortunately, I was much younger then...

[DaveReidUK]

While I don't care about information about retired fleet types, those supplying detailed information about cargo access on current passenger fleet types have to be the most clueless I've ever read in terms of situational awareness on this forum.

Security through Obscurity rarely works.

Hoping that the bad guys will remain ignorant about something that thousands of people know how to do could also be described as a clueless philosophy ...

[NutLoose]

Nutloose - Reef the VC10. I've used this to exit and enter the aircraft in the absence of steps on more than one occasion. Also, it was possible to get into the rear cargo hold through a door between the rear toilets into the 'boiler room' on the ones that weren't converted to tankers. In the film 'Catch me if you Can', Frank Abignale was seen to escape from a B707 through a toilet at JFK. This would have been impossible. In the book, he mentions it was actually a VC10 where it would have been quite possible, although quite a long drop from the rear cargo hatch.

I can also confirm the Airbus A300, A310, A330, A340 and the B747 have doors from the radio electrics bay into the forward baggage hold.


Yes, used the floor hatch myself when doing runs. I never knew you could get in the rear freight hold from the tail, was this on the C1? as I cannot remember ever seeing access, the door into the tail was by lifting up the no smoking sign and opening up the hidden door. There was also a periscope that could be put through the floor to see into the rear freight bay.

Jhieminga
The RAF acess door was only in the centre bog IIRC.
We did have a centre toilet door that used to pop open on its own and there was also concerns about the panting on the lower aft fuselage due to the amount of circuit and bumps with fuel in the fin, someone put a redline entry in the logbook saying the rear 5 rows of seats to be only occupied by blind people... and that they must hook their feet under the seat in front for take off and landings, or something along those lines. it did several flights before a crew actually read them... says it all really.

[Ollie Onion]

While I don't care about information about retired fleet types, those supplying detailed information about cargo access on current passenger fleet types have to be the most clueless I've ever read in terms of situational awareness on this forum.

Yes, I hope those nasty bad guys don't have access to youtube.

[mustafagander]

About VC10 and also VC15 galley floor trapdoors. The VC 10/15 required an inspection to check the hyd quantities and a few other things under the floor each transit. But, in the best tradition of British engineering, we had to take up the trapdoors in the galley and hence prevent the galley exchange form going ahead while we, engineers, were down there checking the stuff required. We used to be blamed for any delay. Not my airline, blame me if you want.
Can you imagine it - an aircraft designed when the VC10/15 was designed having fuses for the systems? There is lots of other lunatic design stuff but let's leave it for another thread.

[NutLoose]

Security through Obscurity rarely works.

Hoping that the bad guys will remain ignorant about something that thousands of people know how to do could also be described as a clueless philosophy ...

When doing Royals, the RAF plods would turn up and ask me to open various panels so they could peer inside, while the sniffer dogs did upstairs and generally round the externals....
Opening a panel up the plod stares in at the myriad of pipeworks, bottles, cylinders and electrics... Asking what are you looking for, he replies "bombs".. "Ahh so are you expecting to find a big black ball marked bomb with a fuse out of the top? you do realise anyone of those components in there could be a cunningly disguised bomb and you would be none the wiser, do you know what any of that lot is for?"... A glazed expression fell across his face as he points up the fin and announces "I would now like to look in there".. "Fine" says I, as I look quarter of the way up the fin, "Two things though, One, how the heck do you think a bad guy was going to get in and get quarter of the way up the fin on a VC10 to unscrew about 60 odd screws and remove the panel to plant his bomb and Two, being a fuel tank, do you not think he might have got awfully wet?
"Errrmm, perhaps we'll leave that one".. "good idea says I"

[WideScreen]

While I don't care about information about retired fleet types, those supplying detailed information about cargo access on current passenger fleet types have to be the most clueless I've ever read in terms of situational awareness on this forum.
TBH, I am 1000% more worried about China hosted cultural parks close to military and/or government sites, let alone let China have core access to the Internet/Cellphone infrastructure, both in the US and Europe.

[Jhieminga]

I never knew you could get in the rear freight hold from the tail, was this on the C1?
It's not a clear path, you'll have to crawl over the first crossbeam with the commoning valve on it, then drop down between the pipework and the next engine beam somehow. Or perhaps it's past that engine beam as well... I only ever did that once on a BOAC Standard, I don't know if it's possible on the other subtypes. There's more about the various periscopes here by the way: https://www.vc10.net/Technical/oddities.html#Periscopes
mustafagander are you sure you went through the trapdoor to check the hyd quantities? The reservoirs are in the rear fuselage. ;)