P-51 Ident

[megan]

Any clues on this conversion? It is said that a -51 was converted to a two seat configuration from which Eisenhower surveyed the D Day beaches , could this be it?


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1780x2000/p5_cc87bf74d5eb5ac8d064933b74cfda179a8614fc.png

[MechEngr]

see https://www.flickr.com/photos/17758466@N04/6813260102/

[chevvron]

Shirley Ike would have had a 'D' model converted not an 'A' model.
Anyway he would more likely have used a Cub or Sentinel.

[longer ron]

He flew in a modified P51 B on 4th July - newsreel below from youtoob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBhkN4R1eF4

[Self loading bear]

Nice video,
wrong title.
Battle of the bulge was a surprise offensive by the Germans, in December not a thing you could prepare for in summer weather.

[Sepp]

43-6593 (84th FS, 78th FG) was damaged on landing at Duxford on 10 Apr 1945 and as evidenced by the photo in a post above, was already war weary by that date. It was subsequently converted to 2 seater for use by 78th FG at Duxford.

[kenparry]

That top photo could well be Duxford, which still has that Belfast Truss type of hangar - not as many as before a film outfit blew up a couple without permission. Battle of Britain film, I think?

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Great Video Ron, many thanks !

[DHfan]

That top photo could well be Duxford, which still has that Belfast Truss type of hangar - not as many as before a film outfit blew up a couple without permission. Battle of Britain film, I think?

It was Battle of Britain at Duxford but they only(!) blew up one without permission - the sole single bay hangar. All the double bay ones, as in the photo, are still there.

[XV490]

Eisenhower's pilot that day was Maj Gen 'Pete' Quesada, CG IX Fighter Command. Both men were reprimanded by Generals Bradley and Arnold for risking capture.

[longer ron]

Nice video,
wrong title.
Battle of the bulge was a surprise offensive by the Germans, in December not a thing you could prepare for in summer weather.

Yes I spotted that as well - this newsreel was presumably filmed at an Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) not too far from the Beachead,the date of 4th July confirms it was not that long after D Day.
Maybe filmed not too far from St Lo ??

[longer ron]

Perhaps filmed at ALG 'A2' Criqueville,as the 354th were based there Jun/July 1944 .

[Jhieminga]

The two photos that started the thread are also here: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/21298 along with the rest of its history, but only minimal notes about the two-seat conversion (click on 'show caption' for the first image). I guess that was done to support its 'conversion from P-47' role.

[megan]

Many thanks all, curiosity satisfied. :ok: Another of historys vignettes.

[chevvron]

That top photo could well be Duxford, which still has that Belfast Truss type of hangar - not as many as before a film outfit blew up a couple without permission. Battle of Britain film, I think?
I woud have said Hendon.

[DHfan]

Why would a Mustang, known to be based at Duxford, be at Hendon?

[sandringham1]

What puzzles me is that the image of it stood on its nose shows it in single seat configuration, no malcolm hood visible and the radio mast is in the usual place just aft of the opening top canopy section, and yet this is captioned as being the incident that ended its days.
The other image shows it with the malcolm hood fitted and the radio mast relocated towards the fin, as you would expect from for its intended role as a trainer.
I wonder if the damage done in the nose over came first and during the repair job (a replacement wing and prop) the conversion to two seater was carried out.

[megan]

Why would a Mustang, known to be based at Duxford, be at HendonBecause they did get around, 43-6623 crashed on takeoff from Speke (airport for Liverpool) Feb 18, 1943 and SOC. Sent to USAF Base Air Depot 2 (Now RAF Warton) where it was combined with other P-51B's parts that had been dropped while being unloaded at Liverpool docks and rebuilt as an unarmed two seater named *Spare Parts*. It was used for delivering urgent small spares, as a VIP transport and (amongst other things but probably most importantly) fetching bulk supplies of Scotch whiskey from a distillery in Glasgow! In late 1944 it suffered engine failure whilst flying over the Irish Sea off Blackpool and the two occupants had to bail out; they were safely rescued, but 'Spare Parts' crashed into the sea.

[Kemble Pitts]

I woud have said Hendon.

Hendon hangars had the solid-panel sliding doors, Duxford hangars had/have the folding concertina-type doors shown in the OP photograph.

[Jhieminga]

43-6593 (84th FS, 78th FG) was damaged on landing at Duxford on 10 Apr 1945 and....
The link I posted a few posts back has the date for the landing accident as 10 Apr 1944. If this landing accident led to the conversion, a 1944 date sounds more plausible to me. Lots of ifs though...

[m5dnd]

In Richard E Turner's Book "Mustang Pilot" he says that the Mustang in question was a "war weary" machine that they had modified with the second seat. They used it "Occasionally demostrate tactics to new pilots and give rides to our crew chiefs" They were based at landing strip A-2 on the beachead at Normandy from June 19th 1944. The Eisenhower flight on July 4th 1944 so they could "fly a personal reconnaissance of the Saint-Lo area"

[DuncanDoenitz]

Just me being dumb, but to be clear we are talking about 2 different P-51s here?

Ser no unknown, code GO-Z, or GQ-Z. 355th FS, 9th Air Force. Modified in the field by removing a fuel tank, fitting a second seat and apparently reusing the cockpit aft-side transparency panels; note that a mechanic has to climb onto the wing to let the General out. Well worn drab paint finish, invasion stripes. Flew Ike as a passenger in France in July 1944.

43-6593, code S-WZ (or probably more correctly WZ-S). 84th FS, 8th Air Force. Modified to 2-seat configuration at a main MRO facility with a bubble type 2nd canopy. Unpainted metal finish before and after repair and retained the same squadron code, presumably not operated across the Channel after its repair as no invasion stripes apparent. Used as a squadron hack.

2 supplementary musings on 43-6593;

Dual control? I'm guessing not, due to the complexity.
Origin of the second canopy? Doesn't look home-made.

[longer ron]

Yes Duncan - 2 different a/c - the one that Ike flew in was a 'field' conversion and once strapped into the rear cockpit he was trapped there with no parachute,the flight presumably taking place from ALG 'A2' (Criqueville) in france.

[DHfan]

The second canopy looks to me like a Malcolm hood which would make sense as they were fitted to some Mustangs, so it presumably would be close to the required shape and size.

[WB627]

I think this is it...

This plane belonged to the 355th Fighter Squadron of the 354th Fighter Group

A-98 Rosieres En Haye, France
Located: 48°46′48″N 005°58′48″E
Now: Toul-Rosières Air Base (BA 136)
Opened: 21 November 1944 Closed: 22 May 1945
Runway: 5000x120, PSP, (03/21)[1]
Used by:[5]
354th Fighter Group, 1 December 1944 – 8 April 1945

[longer ron]

You would have to specify which 'plane' you mean WB as 2 different a/c are under discussion.
The P51 B conversion that Ike flew in was probably flown from ALG 'A2' (Criqueville) - where the 354th FG was operating from in June/July 1944.
Ike's flight in this P51 B was 4th July 1944.

[longer ron]

Also just to clarify for anybody else joining the discussion on page 2,the youtube video I posted on the previous page had been captioned incorrectly by the youtube channel uploader,Eisenhower's P51 flight was 4th July 1944 and was to reconnoitre the St Lo area in preparation for the break out from St Lo - nothing to do with the 'Bulge' which was months later in winter.
Always best to cross check any info gleaned from TV/youtube/internet :)

[WB627]

On reflection, it did look a bit sunny for the winter of 1944 :hmm: