firemen

[canberra]

i realise this isnt the right forum, but i dont think theres any forum for firemen on pprune. anyway heres my first question. i was watching discovery this afternoon, prog about gatwick firemen. it showed them enroute to an incident, narrator made point about them struggling to get in to their kit whilst in the cab. in the raf(and i guess army and navy as well) the firemen on shift wear their fire kit whilst on shift. im guessing this saves time getting dressed so why dont the civvies do the same? second point , why dont airports have their own ambulances on site? given the amount of people passing through id have thought they would be required to have one.

[411A]

Interesting point.
A recent incident in Arizona where a C172 landed on fire (electrical), the fire department was on the scene in one minute flat after being notified by the tower. All survived (two) but the aeroplane was burned to a crisp, all in the space of three minutes.
Many expensive business jets based here and the fire department takes their job very seriously. They practice often and have a response time second to none, 24/7.

[Captain Stable]

Very good question, Canberra. It is standard practice, of course, in normal urban fire stations for them to relax in the station without their full kit. However, their response time to a fire can be anything up to 30 minutes. Ample time in which to wriggle into jackets, helmets etc. However, on an airfield where they have to be able to attend an incident anywhere on the field within four minutes (I believe) it doesn't leave much time. On the other hand, particularly in the height of summer, if you asked them to hang around for a full shift wearing all the clobber, you'd have a bunch of rather upset firemen on your hands. Plus I don't think they'd find it quite so easy to run for the appliances (why are they all called either Dennis or Simon?), so getting the kit on in the cab may well be easier.

If anyone who sees this is an AFS operator or knows one, can they find out the answer please? Enquiring minds would like to know.

[jumpseater]

If memory serves me correctly the firemen at the airport I'm familiar with do not sit around kitted up, much like the civvies they dress for action on the run. Re ambulances its probably cost, I can think of only two fatal accidents on site in the 14 years I've been on my airfield, southern uk. From what I know both were unsurviveable, so they wouldn't have been cost effective. Hopefully we get a heads up on an incident, i.e. mayday or pan, which allows 'civilian' services time to respond. Having said that both above accidents had no warning. Under the Aerodrome Manual there are criteria laid out for RFS services, but not as I reacall specifically for ambulance or paramedics.

[411A]

Asked at the airport fire station today and was informed that the guys suit up in the engine on the way to the incident. All but the driver of course, he suits up on site.

[Hooligan Bill]

canberra

Re: Ambulances. CAP 168 recommends that an Aerodrome Authority consider the provision of an on-site vehicle if the normal journey time for the first local authority ambulance exceeds 15 minutes.

I know that Kirkwall in Orkney, did and may still have an ambulance as the local authority could not guarentee a 15 minute turn out.

[canberra]

a 15 minute response! granted most firemen( and most of the military) are first aid trained, but if youve got a major incident most firemen will be fire fighting. i wonder what a coroner would say? on the subject of firemens dress, even in the height of a german summer, and it can get hot in germany the firemen were kitted up. no wonder we didnt have many fat firemen at gutersloh!

[ops_bored]

Recently completed my refresher course for CAA Cat II Fire and Rescue (only a low Cat for heli's and light a/c)

Dress ready to move at any given time and suit up in cab.
Response time for Cat II is 2 mins,
That is 2 mins from when the big siren goes off to having delivered at least half of the media (eg Foam) onto incident.

By law, we have to have a practice at least once every 3 months and a refresher every 18 months.

Dont know about the big Cat boys ( Response times etc).

Hope this answers part of the question.

[chiglet]

Yonks ago at Manch..
A "very" unofficial test for "FIre Response" was Set Up.
The CFO walked outside the Fire Station and dropped his hankie as the "go" signal :eek:
27 SECONDS later, the LAST Fire vehicle exited the Station:D
We aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[canberra]

i spoke to an ex raf fireman today and got an answer. basically the raf and mod work on a quicker response time than the caa. under the military flying regs the crash crew must be at the scene and have started to rescue people in under 3 minutes. i believe that the caa state only that you must be at the scene in 2 minutes, and says nothing about having started a rescue. therefore to save time raf firemen wear their crash kit while on duty.

[ORAC]

CAP168 (Feb 2001):

"The operational objective of the RFFS should be to achieve a response of 2 minutes, not exceeding 3 minutes in circumstances of optimum visibility and surface conditions"

"Response time is considered to be the time between the initial call to the RFFS and the time the first responsing vehicle(s) are in position and producing foam at 50% of the discharge rate specified" and "Any other vehicles required to deliver the amounts specified........should arrive no later than 1 minute after the first responding vehicle".


CAP168 (pdf) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP168.pdf)

[411A]

Question:
Are there any special procedures established due to low visibility conditions at selected airports?

[Captain Stable]

Probably one is to drive slower! I understand that those fire tenders can get up one heck of a speed, but take quite a bit of stopping... :eek:

[RadarContact]

Re: ambulances

On bigger airports with larger fire brigades they have their own ambulances...

[Muppit]

If that discovery program is the same one I've seen, I think it's a bit out of date.

At Gatwick, the crews target is to reach any part of the airfield within 90 seconds of a call out. The same goes for Heathrow, which is why they've got two fire stations: The big one opposite the Kilos, and a smaller one down by the Hotels/Golfs.

As for ambulance cover, Gatwick introduced an emergency paramedic 4x4 a couple of years ago, called 'Solo', who can free range on the airport and is rarely idle. He's also supported by Sussex ambulance who have an extremely good call out time to the airport.

In LVP's, Gatwick AFS will contact the Ground controller who will give them a taxi route, and the switchable taxiway lighting system (the reds & greens) brought up on that route. ATC also have a ground movement radar and can pass traffic information to the crews if requested.

I've had cause to hit the big red button a number of times, and the crews are always there, suited up and water cannon ready whenever they're needed.


Muppit:)

[sharpshot]

Reference response times in LVP, Fire Crews are expected to attain the same standard. (CAT 9 Airfield in U.K.)

We have SMR so ATC can advise incident location with a pretty good degree of accuracy and the response vehicles are equipped with GPS in airfield map mode.

Hope that covers one query.

In terms of "being suited up" for 12 hours, I think most would be somewhat physically drained come part way through a shift. Staff also have other duties including training and maintaining their fitness.

[gijoe]

I remember seeing a dit on TV about a Station Officer who was retiring from being a fireman at Gatwick. His claim to fame was that he had never been to a real incident (i.e. involving an aircraft) in something like 25 years at LGW !! He was proud of this !

So...maybe they don't wear their suits because they never think they're going to be needed ;)

[pilotwolf]

Just an addition to what Muppit said...

Surrey Ambulance (strange being as LGW is in Sussex - but due to budgets years ago!) provides Gatwick Solo in a joint funding operation with BAA. Solo is based at LGW and only responds to incidents within the airfield boundary. We operate 0600/2400 7 days a week. This has greatly reduced the AFS turnouts to medical calls.

Most of the ambulance cover/backup is provided by Surrey usally from Gatwick itself, (an ambulance is there 0600/1800 Mon-Fri) or nearby Horley. Sussex do help out but their unfamilarity with the airport often causes problems!

All of the solos are free range trained and also work on the Gatwick and Horley ambulances thus reducing greatly the workload on the police to provide escorts airside and reducing attendance times.

When solo is off watch or committed AFS will still attend medical calls. Their staff are well trained in basic ambulance aid, including defibrillation and pain relief. Unlike some fire services I have dealt with over the years, we have an excellent working relationship with AFS, Airfield Ops, BAA staff and hopefully the tower staff!!

[Muppit]

Pilotwolf,

I'd like to think us tower bods help out when we can. If Solo is rapidly approaching a busy controlled crossing, feel free to call Ground and ask for it to be closed.

I met some of the Solo guys at my first aid course, and if you ever fancy a visit (or a coffee), feel free to buzz at the gate any time. (There should be somebody in!).:p

[pilotwolf]

Muppit.

Thanks for your support! Have always found you all very helpful. (Creeping as mine is tea with milk and 2 sugars!)

Only prob we have is our Icom A3E isn't the most user friendly radio when you are in a hurry!

I have a distinct advantage over the others due to the CPL with the radio as 'nerves' have often taken over and its easier to make a diversion than take (the unfounded) risk of sounding silly or causing you or aircraft any problems.

My biggest worry is that a taxi-ing aircraft will panic when they see us heading for them at a gret rate of knots and do something 'silly'!

Been there and done as a PPL into LAX in a R22 several years ago - got a "Landline tower before attempting to leave pad" - they wanted to tell me the gate access code but have never been so scared to make a phone call in my life![B]