Why did the Spanish use German aircraft with RR engines?

[uxb99]

I'm talking about CASA He111p and Buchons.
So why were the airframes mated to Merlins more importantly why German airframes at all when there was a glut of other types after WW2?

[longer ron]

Hi UXB
Hispano had built quite a few versions of the 109 already - if you watch the film about Hans Joachim Marseille (Star of Africa 1957) they used Hispano - Suiza engined HA 1112's - which were a fair representation (shape wise) of a 109F.The Merlin engined Buchon came about because of the easy availability of Merlins and Props in the post war years.
Spain was a bit isolated from the international community at that time so just had to use what was available and 'good enough' for the time.

[NutLoose]

The original ME 109 was actually Kestrel powered, the forerunner of the Merlin engine btw, but I doubt RR was willing to erm supply engines during WW2.

[Jhieminga]

The Wikipedia page about the CASA 2.111 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CASA_2.111) neatly sums up the story. They had been flying He.111s since 1937, negotiated a contract to build 200 of them in Spain but had to use a cache of Jumo 211 engines from France and when these ran out of steam, needed another powerplant to replace them with. At that point, the Merlin was easily available. The Hispano Buchon story (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Aviaci%C3%B3n_HA-1112) is very similar. Both of these re-engining projects took place in the mid-50s. At that time finding German engines for them would have been very difficult if not impossible.

[Noyade]

A little more on the subject from the April 1956 edition of Flying Review.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x743/scan1055_5712f364af837fc3563f047cfa092357a608b31e.jpg

[dduxbury310]

Can we have the next page please? It's just getting interesting!

[Noyade]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x651/scan1058_d9fea3b59fbf7dacdd3e5192c412151dda45baad.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/850x910/scan1059_d712be8deccfba10fff5cab44f0f5a098af2d608.jpg

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Slight Drift here but some nostalgic scenes -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WRI0qA-tOg

[treadigraph]

Ooh, good find! Must be about 50 Merlins in those formation passes...

Nice to see John Blake and Jeff Hawke; was the gentleman with the beard examining the Spitfire parachute dummy Viv Bellamy?

[GeeRam]

Fabulous.... :ok:

[Prangster]

It almost becomes amusing when you consider that merlin development was dependent upon a HE 70 monoplane. Rolls Royce bought one as at the time the UK manufacturers just didn't have an airframe capable enough. Add the twist the Beverley Shenstone Supermarines aerodynamics guru had worked for Ernst Heinkel developing a eliptical wing that the Germans turned down as being too difficult to manufacture. RR Hucknall must have been a really weird place to work at in the late 1930's.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Ooh, good find! Must be about 50 Merlins in those formation passes...

Nice to see John Blake and Jeff Hawke; was the gentleman with the beard examining the Spitfire parachute dummy Viv Bellamy?
Quite possibly Viv Bellamy - it was he who shot this cine film.

[DownWest]

Great clips!
I was driving past Duxford back then and head some growling above. Stopped and watch a 109 and a Spitfire practicing dogfighting.

[sycamore]

Treadders,not sure it`s JB; more likely Hamish Mahaddie...?
Oh how dull air display commentators can be,since JB has gone...no more wit and pith...

[Trim Stab]

An intersting historical fact is that when the Luftwaffe captured an intact Spitfire they first tested it in its original state. But then their engineers wanted to examine the Merlin in detail, so they took it out and fitted a DB605 to the Spitfire, creating the "MesserSpit" hybrid. In trials, this DB605 powered version outperformed the original Merlin powered Spitfire.

Also, the Merlin powered Me109s used in Spain also outperformed the DB605 powered originals.

The inference could be that both airframes were mismatched to their engines - but I expect the story is a lot more nuanced than that.

[Jhieminga]

The question is: outperformed in what way? Level speed? At what altitude? Climb performance? At what (density) altitude? Range? Just look at how the P-51 became a great escort fighter with the Merlin, but was a perfectly fine ground attack fighter with the Allison engine. It depends on what you want to do with your airframe. It's been a while since I read it but Jeffrey Quill's 'Spitfire' (https://amzn.to/3y5xEue)details the many development steps the type went through and includes some bits about the concurrent Merlin development.

[treadigraph]

Treadders,not sure it`s JB; more likely Hamish Mahaddie...?
Oh how dull air display commentators can be,since JB has gone...no more wit and pith...

In the Heinkel dorsal turret around 2.50 - sure it's JB! Miss him too, an ideal combination of knowledge, reminiscences, humour and silence at all the right moments.

[DHfan]

An intersting historical fact is that when the Luftwaffe captured an intact Spitfire they first tested it in its original state. But then their engineers wanted to examine the Merlin in detail, so they took it out and fitted a DB605 to the Spitfire, creating the "MesserSpit" hybrid. In trials, this DB605 powered version outperformed the original Merlin powered Spitfire.

Also, the Merlin powered Me109s used in Spain also outperformed the DB605 powered originals.

The inference could be that both airframes were mismatched to their engines - but I expect the story is a lot more nuanced than that.

In similar vein, apparently neither the Merlin-powered Halifax or the Hercules-powered Lancaster were as good as the opposite installation.

[sycamore]

Treadds,apologies,think you are right,or it could be `Professor ` Jimmy Edwards..!

[layman]

And to continue to derail the thread

Fitting a RR-Merlin to the North American P-51 made a good aircraft into one of the best (for that time at least)