28 years

[tucumseh]

Major Richard Allen
Colonel Christopher Biles
Detective Inspector Dennis Bunting
Detective Chief Superintendent Desmond Conroy
Flight Lieutenant Richard Cook
Martin Dalton
Detective Superintendent Phillip Davidson
Detective Inspector Stephen Davidson
John Deverell
Major Christopher Dockerty
Assistant Chief Constable Brian Fitzsimons
Master Airloadmaster Graham Forbes
Detective Superintendent Robert Foster
Lieutenant Colonel Richard Gregory-Smith
Detective Superintendent William Gwilliam
Sergeant Kevin Hardie
John Haynes
Major Antony Hornby
Anne James
Detective Inspector Kevin Magee
Michael Maltby
Detective Chief Superintendent Maurice Neilly
Detective Superintendent Ian Phoenix
Major Roy Pugh
Stephen Rickard
Major Gary Sparks
Flight Lieutenant Jonathan Tapper
Lieutenant Colonel John Tobias
Lieutenant Colonel George Williams

RIP

[Haraka]

Alll in one Chinook. A tragedy

[Chugalug2]

Alll in one Chinook. A tragedy

A completely avoidable tragedy. The aircraft, like all other Chinook HC2's, was knowingly released into RAF service in a grossly unairworthy condition. This was the RAF's worst peacetime fatal air accident, and remains so to this day. The infamous finding by the two reviewing Air Officers of Pilot Gross Negligence was overturned in 2011 by SoS Liam Fox. Since then no further official investigation has been carried out, let alone discovered whose gross negligence it was that was responsible if it wasn't the pilots'! The cover up since is a blemish on the honour of the Royal Air Force, and has led to further avoidable airworthiness related UK Military fatal air accidents since.

To see all 29 victims listed by Tucumseh illustrates not only the terrible loss suffered by their loved ones, but to the national security of the United Kingdom.

Let right be done!

[popeye107]

A completely avoidable tragedy. The aircraft, like all other Chinook HC2's, was knowingly released into RAF service in a grossly unairworthy condition. This was the RAF's worst peacetime fatal air accident, and remains so to this day. The infamous finding by the two reviewing Air Officers of Pilot Gross Negligence was overturned in 2011 by SoS Liam Fox. Since then no further official investigation has been carried out, let alone discovered whose gross negligence it was that was responsible if it wasn't the pilots'! The cover up since is a blemish on the honour of the Royal Air Force, and has led to further avoidable airworthiness related UK Military fatal air accidents since.

To see all 29 victims listed by Tucumseh illustrates not only the terrible loss suffered by their loved ones, but to the national security of the United Kingdom.

Let right be done!

Outstanding post, they deserved better.

[Lordflasheart]

...
Amen to all the above.

Regretttably the 'culture' does not seem to have improved with the passing of time.

Nor does MoD appear to have learned any lessons about honesty in 28 years.

It is still going on.

LFH.

[biscuit74]

Is it true that their original flight plan was for a high level transit, later changed to a low level routeing plan because of icing risks? A great shame.

[Lordflasheart]

...
Biscuit - The only sensible way to answer this and many similar questions would be to draw your attention to two excellent books -

"Their Greatest Disgrace ... " by David Hill and "The Inconvenient Truth ... " by David Hill with John Blakely.

They are readily available in a number of formats.

LFH

[Brian 48nav]

Chugalug2,

Surely the Hercules loss off Pisa in November 1971 was the RAF"s worst peacetime accident. IIRC, 6 crew and 42 Italian paratroopers lost.

[dervish]

...
Biscuit - The only sensible way to answer this and many similar questions would be to draw your attention to two excellent books -

"Their Greatest Disgrace ... " by David Hill and "The Inconvenient Truth ... " by David Hill with John Blakely.

They are readily available in a number of formats.

LFH


Seconded. The second book, about cause, is chock full of facts I'd never seen discussed anywhere. An astonishing piece of work. The background information in the first page of chapter 1 alone....

I was across on the peninsula a few weeks ago. Raised a glass last night.

[Lima Juliet]

Brian — agreed on XV216 on 9 Nov 71 - 53 killed.

Also the loss of Hastings C1 TG577 at Little Baldon, South of Oxford on 6 Jul 65. That saw 6 Crew and 35 HM Forces perish (total 41). Both are way bigger than the Chinook tragedy.

I think the Chinook may be the 4th biggest as there was also a Liberator C6 KL595 lost on 13 Oct 45 (ie. Post War) with 31 souls on board in Belgium.

However, if we count the loss of HM Airship R38 on 24 Aug 1921 or R101 on 5 Oct 30 then the 44 and 48 respectively that perished pushes the CH47 into 6th place for ‘worst RAF accidents in peacetime’.

[dervish]

My understanding is that it was the worst RAF crash in peacetime involving civilians, and the media always seems to have left out the civilians bit and it became accepted.

In any case a very minor error. Were you so quick to jump on the claim by the Chief of the Air Staff that the aircraft was "off course by miles"?

[Brian 48nav]

dervish

If your last sentence is directed at me - no, I wasn't aware that CAS (whichever one it was! ) had posted here on PPrune that the aircraft was ' off course by miles'.

As a former Hercules nav' ( I was the nav' in the second aircraft behind XV216 in the formation from Pisa ) I have little or no knowledge of Chinook operations. I have loosely followed the Chinook thread, particularly Tecumseh's input, and also feel extremely concerned that some 'Airships' were quick to blame the pilots of that fated mission.

I know that Chugalug is a former Hercules captain ( in fact we overlapped for a while on 30 Sqn. in 69/70 ) and was mildly surprised that the Pisa accident had slipped his memory. But, he, like me 'is getting on a bit ' and we don't recall everything!

[Lima Juliet]

The worst loss of civilian life involving a RAF aircraft was 4 Sep 1938.

Audax I K7381, 1 ERFTS, Hatfield
Crashed on houses, Dunholme Road, Edmonton
Sgt Stanley Robert Morris (20) killed (pilot, RAFVR)
Mrs May Lavinia Callaghan (39) died 8.9.38
Doris M Callaghan (16) died 25.9.38
Dennis Callagahan (13) killed
Terence Callagahan (3) killed
John Euesden (45) killed
James Letch (24) died 5.9.38
Edward Letch (20) killed
Benjamin Saunders (43) killed
Mrs Harriet Grace Saunders (37) killed
Roy Saunders (16) killed
Derek Saunders (9) killed
James Alfred Tant (8) killed

Absolutely tragic. :sad:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/2421

[Chugalug2]

Brian 48nav, thank you, I stand corrected of course, both by you and by other posters as to the number who perished in other RAF peacetime accidents. I consulted Wiki for the year that Liam Fox overturned the ROs' finding, and simply took the statement in the first para, that it was the worst RAF peacetime loss, on trust. Para two attributes the quote to ACM Sir William Wratten, one of the ROs. Quite! A lesson learned....

As to Pisa and Little Baldon, both too close to home to forget, and the second surely also airworthiness related. Both terrible tragedies and not forgotten I can assure you. Edmonton I wasn't aware of, and perhaps far more worthy of ROs' wrath than the completely unjustified and perhaps cynical finding that attempted to pin the blame on two JOs rather than the VSOs that pressed the Chinook HC2 into RAF service against all the mandatory regulations and procedures that should have prevented just that. Having ultimately failed to besmirch the pilots' reputations the Star Chamber has been content to close ranks and continue the cover up. That may be of some comfort to some of them, but it serves the Royal Air Force very poor, and is a positive hindrance to UK Military Air Safety. Until the RAF lances this boil, necessary and urgent reform of Military Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation will not happen. That simply means more avoidable fatal air accidents. That is unacceptable.

May I also commend the two excellent books by David Hill as mentioned by Lordflasheart above. A trip down a certain South American river should reveal them. For those just looking for a simple résumé of the tragedy, I would still suggest wiki, despite the embarrassing faux pas it led me into :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash

[Herod]

Concerning the books, I can recommend them. having read both within the last few months. One bit of advice; write down the acronyms when they first come up. There are a lot, and they are used extensively.

Brian 48Nav. I think I flew on the last flight of the Pisa aircraft. I went out to be part of the operations room. Arrived, went to the mess, slept, and next morning heard the awful news.

[Old-Duffer]

Depending on the way the cut is made, the collision of a York and an SAS DC6 near Northolt becomes a contender and for wartime accidents involving civilians, one USAAF aircraft crashing into a school near Preston and at least two Liberators in the 'returned aircrew' service, between the UK and USA all produced multiple civilian casualties. Sadly a Polish aircraft - again near Northolt - crashed on a sports field with the loss of all aboard (crew + pax) and two families of mothers and children watching a football match. In Scotland a crash near Lossiemouth produced a large number of children killed in the houses struck.

Old Duffer

[dervish]

dervish
If your last sentence is directed at me - no, I wasn't aware that CAS (whichever one it was! ) had posted here on PPrune that the aircraft was ' off course by miles'.


No offence intended to anyone. Both books mention Air Chief Marshal Graydon's letter to Marshal of the RAF John Grandy. It was mentioned here a few times. A quick check tells me it was written in 1987. What the book doesn't say, perhaps can't, is who leaked the letter. It provides an Air Staff file reference, so it wasn't a private note.

As for the acronyms Herod, not a problem in the second book. I think this was acknowledged and corrected in the first. At least the Kindle version is because the author offers a free replacement whenever they are updated. You've got to e-mail the publisher, but they reply quickly.

We probably don't want another ZD576 thread. But reminders are good. As chug says, the case is still open.

[BBK]

I’m just half way through reading “The Inconvenient Truth” and it is truly a shocking story to read. If I have understood correctly the Mk2 was NOT cleared to fly by Boscombe Down but was pushed into service anyway?

Lastly, my condolences to those of you that knew the RAF crew and passengers.

[ShyTorque]

I’m just half way through reading “The Inconvenient Truth” and it is truly a shocking story to read. If I have understood correctly the Mk2 was NOT cleared to fly by Boscombe Down but was pushed into service anyway?

Lastly, my condolences to those of you that knew the RAF crew and passengers.

You have understood the situation perfectly.

[BBK]

ShyTorque

Thank you. PM sent.

BBK

[BEagle]

On 7 Dec 2005, I wrote to my MP, David Cameron about the Chinook crash. He replied and we continued to exchange letters. Then on 2 Jun 2006, afteer signing EDM 651 over the issue, he wrote:
The House of Lords Select Committee report unaninmously concluded that the reviewing Officers were not justified in finding that negligence on the part of the pilots caused the aircraft to crash.

I believe now that the only honourable course for the Government is to reinstate the reputations of the two brave young pilots who lost their lives. As I see it, the Lords Select Committee report confirms that there was a miscarriage of justice.

I thanked him for his letter, then asked what he would do when (not if) he became the next Prime Minister. He replied on 10 July 2006 as follows:
As I mentioned in my previous letter to you, I do believe that the reputations of the two pilots deserve to be reinstated, as the Lords Select Committee recommended an, in the absence of any overwhelming argument presented to me as Prime Minister that is what I would do.

Again I thanked him. With the 2010 election looming, I wrote to him again in early 2010. He replied:
Given the public concern about the Board of Inquiry findings of gross negligence against the pilots, the Conservatives believe that the matter cannot rest there. Accordingly, we have committed to undertaking a review if we win the forthcoming General Election, a move which is supported by the then Secretary of State for Defence, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, and the then Minister of State, Sir James Arbuthnot.

The Conservatives won the 2010 General Election; David Cameron kept his word and an independent review was conducted, culminating in July 2011 when Defence Secretary Liam Fox apologised to the families of two RAF pilots who were wrongly blamed for the 1994 Chinook helicopter crash. The review found that the two pilots, Flt Lts Jonathan Tapper and Richard Cook should not have been blamed, the earlier ruling was set aside and the pilots' reputations were restored.

Thank you, David, for keeping your word to me!

[ShyTorque]

I helped teach Rick Cook to fly helicopters (on Gazelles back then). I remember him as a very conscientious student.

I wrote to Flight International magazine as soon as I heard about the aftermath of this accident, stating that in my opinion the overturning of the verdict of the BOI was a total whitewash and that any negligence had occurred at a higher, managerial level. My letter was published, with some editing, which diluted my sentiments. At that stage I had no idea who the crew were.

[SASless]

However, if we count the loss of HM Airship R38 on 24 Aug 1921 or R101 on 5 Oct 30 then the 44 and 48 respectively that perished pushes the CH47 into 6th place for ‘worst RAF accidents in peacetime’.

Was any of the first five handled any the worse than the Chinook Crash with the horrendous disservice done to the Aircrew killed isn those other five crashes?

I am not challenging your offer of information but posing an honest question about the outcome of the the investigations into those crashes and the attempted and determined...andt continuing effort to protect the really guilty seniors as this one?

The whole airworthiness issue beginning with why what should have been an off the shelf purchase could. have gone so badly from the very start....and the cover-up based upon the complete denial of both the cause and result of the mistakes made by the senior management has yet to be fully exposed to the healing benefits of direct bright un-shaded Sunlight.

What was said about the RN not improving until a few Admirals had been hanged....holds true for the RAF and MOD as well.

[tucumseh]

I’m just half way through reading “The Inconvenient Truth” and it is truly a shocking story to read. If I have understood correctly the Mk2 was NOT cleared to fly by Boscombe Down but was pushed into service anyway?

Lastly, my condolences to those of you that knew the RAF crew and passengers.



Boscombe recommended to the Project Director (Captain RN) that the type was not airworthy, and listed the many reasons in excruciating detail.

This was accepted by the PD, and Controller Aircraft, his 3-Star, issued this as a statement to the Air Staff. The aircraft is not to be flown. Ground Training and Familiarisation only. MoD later admitted this after the findings were overturned.

This was the central point to Lord Philip, and he confirmed it was 'mandated' upon the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff, AVM Bagnall.

[BEagle]

Large gin and tonic please, tuc! You mentioned the name of the Scottish Officer!

[tucumseh]

I am taking your advice Beagle.

[langleybaston]

I was quite close, inevitably, to the Int. community at JHQ Rheindahlen. I was also, [for my sins, and surprisingly] the RAF churchwarden at St Boniface. On the Sunday following the tragedy there was a very large congregation, absolutely grief-stricken. Grown men and women with dust in their eyes. I shall never forget the shared sadness.

RIP, such a shocking and unnecessary loss, and such a bitter aftermath.