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28 years

Old 2nd Jun 2022, 13:33
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28 years

Major Richard Allen
Colonel Christopher Biles
Detective Inspector Dennis Bunting
Detective Chief Superintendent Desmond Conroy
Flight Lieutenant Richard Cook
Martin Dalton
Detective Superintendent Phillip Davidson
Detective Inspector Stephen Davidson
John Deverell
Major Christopher Dockerty
Assistant Chief Constable Brian Fitzsimons
Master Airloadmaster Graham Forbes
Detective Superintendent Robert Foster
Lieutenant Colonel Richard Gregory-Smith
Detective Superintendent William Gwilliam
Sergeant Kevin Hardie
John Haynes
Major Antony Hornby
Anne James
Detective Inspector Kevin Magee
Michael Maltby
Detective Chief Superintendent Maurice Neilly
Detective Superintendent Ian Phoenix
Major Roy Pugh
Stephen Rickard
Major Gary Sparks
Flight Lieutenant Jonathan Tapper
Lieutenant Colonel John Tobias
Lieutenant Colonel George Williams

RIP
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 13:54
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Alll in one Chinook. A tragedy
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 16:52
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Originally Posted by Haraka View Post
Alll in one Chinook. A tragedy
A completely avoidable tragedy. The aircraft, like all other Chinook HC2's, was knowingly released into RAF service in a grossly unairworthy condition. This was the RAF's worst peacetime fatal air accident, and remains so to this day. The infamous finding by the two reviewing Air Officers of Pilot Gross Negligence was overturned in 2011 by SoS Liam Fox. Since then no further official investigation has been carried out, let alone discovered whose gross negligence it was that was responsible if it wasn't the pilots'! The cover up since is a blemish on the honour of the Royal Air Force, and has led to further avoidable airworthiness related UK Military fatal air accidents since.

To see all 29 victims listed by Tucumseh illustrates not only the terrible loss suffered by their loved ones, but to the national security of the United Kingdom.

Let right be done!
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 17:00
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
A completely avoidable tragedy. The aircraft, like all other Chinook HC2's, was knowingly released into RAF service in a grossly unairworthy condition. This was the RAF's worst peacetime fatal air accident, and remains so to this day. The infamous finding by the two reviewing Air Officers of Pilot Gross Negligence was overturned in 2011 by SoS Liam Fox. Since then no further official investigation has been carried out, let alone discovered whose gross negligence it was that was responsible if it wasn't the pilots'! The cover up since is a blemish on the honour of the Royal Air Force, and has led to further avoidable airworthiness related UK Military fatal air accidents since.

To see all 29 victims listed by Tucumseh illustrates not only the terrible loss suffered by their loved ones, but to the national security of the United Kingdom.

Let right be done!
Outstanding post, they deserved better.
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 20:03
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Amen to all the above.


Regretttably the 'culture' does not seem to have improved with the passing of time.

Nor does MoD appear to have learned any lessons about honesty in 28 years.

It is still going on.

LFH.

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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 23:24
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Is it true that their original flight plan was for a high level transit, later changed to a low level routeing plan because of icing risks? A great shame.
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 01:18
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Biscuit -
The only sensible way to answer this and many similar questions would be to draw your attention to two excellent books -

"Their Greatest Disgrace ... " by David Hill and "The Inconvenient Truth ... " by David Hill with John Blakely.

They are readily available in a number of formats.

LFH
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 09:16
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Chugalug2,

Surely the Hercules loss off Pisa in November 1971 was the RAF"s worst peacetime accident. IIRC, 6 crew and 42 Italian paratroopers lost.
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 12:01
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Originally Posted by Lordflasheart View Post
...
Biscuit -
The only sensible way to answer this and many similar questions would be to draw your attention to two excellent books -

"Their Greatest Disgrace ... " by David Hill and "The Inconvenient Truth ... " by David Hill with John Blakely.

They are readily available in a number of formats.

LFH

Seconded. The second book, about cause, is chock full of facts I'd never seen discussed anywhere. An astonishing piece of work. The background information in the first page of chapter 1 alone....

I was across on the peninsula a few weeks ago. Raised a glass last night.
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 13:33
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Brian — agreed on XV216 on 9 Nov 71 - 53 killed.

Also the loss of Hastings C1 TG577 at Little Baldon, South of Oxford on 6 Jul 65. That saw 6 Crew and 35 HM Forces perish (total 41). Both are way bigger than the Chinook tragedy.

I think the Chinook may be the 4th biggest as there was also a Liberator C6 KL595 lost on 13 Oct 45 (ie. Post War) with 31 souls on board in Belgium.

However, if we count the loss of HM Airship R38 on 24 Aug 1921 or R101 on 5 Oct 30 then the 44 and 48 respectively that perished pushes the CH47 into 6th place for ‘worst RAF accidents in peacetime’.

Last edited by Lima Juliet; 3rd Jun 2022 at 14:00.
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 16:56
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My understanding is that it was the worst RAF crash in peacetime involving civilians, and the media always seems to have left out the civilians bit and it became accepted.

In any case a very minor error. Were you so quick to jump on the claim by the Chief of the Air Staff that the aircraft was "off course by miles"?
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 19:26
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dervish

If your last sentence is directed at me - no, I wasn't aware that CAS (whichever one it was! ) had posted here on PPRuNe that the aircraft was ' off course by miles'.

As a former Hercules nav' ( I was the nav' in the second aircraft behind XV216 in the formation from Pisa ) I have little or no knowledge of Chinook operations. I have loosely followed the Chinook thread, particularly Tecumseh's input, and also feel extremely concerned that some 'Airships' were quick to blame the pilots of that fated mission.

I know that Chugalug is a former Hercules captain ( in fact we overlapped for a while on 30 Sqn. in 69/70 ) and was mildly surprised that the Pisa accident had slipped his memory. But, he, like me 'is getting on a bit ' and we don't recall everything!

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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 20:48
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The worst loss of civilian life involving a RAF aircraft was 4 Sep 1938.

Audax I K7381, 1 ERFTS, Hatfield
Crashed on houses, Dunholme Road, Edmonton
Sgt Stanley Robert Morris (20) killed (pilot, RAFVR)
Mrs May Lavinia Callaghan (39) died 8.9.38
Doris M Callaghan (16) died 25.9.38
Dennis Callagahan (13) killed
Terence Callagahan (3) killed
John Euesden (45) killed
James Letch (24) died 5.9.38
Edward Letch (20) killed
Benjamin Saunders (43) killed
Mrs Harriet Grace Saunders (37) killed
Roy Saunders (16) killed
Derek Saunders (9) killed
James Alfred Tant (8) killed

Absolutely tragic.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/2421

Last edited by Lima Juliet; 3rd Jun 2022 at 20:53. Reason: Add link
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 21:46
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Brian 48nav, thank you, I stand corrected of course, both by you and by other posters as to the number who perished in other RAF peacetime accidents. I consulted Wiki for the year that Liam Fox overturned the ROs' finding, and simply took the statement in the first para, that it was the worst RAF peacetime loss, on trust. Para two attributes the quote to ACM Sir William Wratten, one of the ROs. Quite! A lesson learned....

As to Pisa and Little Baldon, both too close to home to forget, and the second surely also airworthiness related. Both terrible tragedies and not forgotten I can assure you. Edmonton I wasn't aware of, and perhaps far more worthy of ROs' wrath than the completely unjustified and perhaps cynical finding that attempted to pin the blame on two JOs rather than the VSOs that pressed the Chinook HC2 into RAF service against all the mandatory regulations and procedures that should have prevented just that. Having ultimately failed to besmirch the pilots' reputations the Star Chamber has been content to close ranks and continue the cover up. That may be of some comfort to some of them, but it serves the Royal Air Force very poor, and is a positive hindrance to UK Military Air Safety. Until the RAF lances this boil, necessary and urgent reform of Military Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation will not happen. That simply means more avoidable fatal air accidents. That is unacceptable.

May I also commend the two excellent books by David Hill as mentioned by Lordflasheart above. A trip down a certain South American river should reveal them. For those just looking for a simple résumé of the tragedy, I would still suggest wiki, despite the embarrassing faux pas it led me into :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_S..._Chinook_crash
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 22:26
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Concerning the books, I can recommend them. having read both within the last few months. One bit of advice; write down the acronyms when they first come up. There are a lot, and they are used extensively.

Brian 48Nav. I think I flew on the last flight of the Pisa aircraft. I went out to be part of the operations room. Arrived, went to the mess, slept, and next morning heard the awful news.
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Old 4th Jun 2022, 06:42
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Depending on the way the cut is made, the collision of a York and an SAS DC6 near Northolt becomes a contender and for wartime accidents involving civilians, one USAAF aircraft crashing into a school near Preston and at least two Liberators in the 'returned aircrew' service, between the UK and USA all produced multiple civilian casualties. Sadly a Polish aircraft - again near Northolt - crashed on a sports field with the loss of all aboard (crew + pax) and two families of mothers and children watching a football match. In Scotland a crash near Lossiemouth produced a large number of children killed in the houses struck.

Old Duffer
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Old 4th Jun 2022, 07:12
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Originally Posted by Brian 48nav View Post
dervish
If your last sentence is directed at me - no, I wasn't aware that CAS (whichever one it was! ) had posted here on PPRuNe that the aircraft was ' off course by miles'.
No offence intended to anyone. Both books mention Air Chief Marshal Graydon's letter to Marshal of the RAF John Grandy. It was mentioned here a few times. A quick check tells me it was written in 1987. What the book doesn't say, perhaps can't, is who leaked the letter. It provides an Air Staff file reference, so it wasn't a private note.

As for the acronyms Herod, not a problem in the second book. I think this was acknowledged and corrected in the first. At least the Kindle version is because the author offers a free replacement whenever they are updated. You've got to e-mail the publisher, but they reply quickly.

We probably don't want another ZD576 thread. But reminders are good. As chug says, the case is still open.
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Old 5th Jun 2022, 09:35
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I’m just half way through reading “The Inconvenient Truth” and it is truly a shocking story to read. If I have understood correctly the Mk2 was NOT cleared to fly by Boscombe Down but was pushed into service anyway?

Lastly, my condolences to those of you that knew the RAF crew and passengers.
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Old 5th Jun 2022, 09:46
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Originally Posted by BBK View Post
I’m just half way through reading “The Inconvenient Truth” and it is truly a shocking story to read. If I have understood correctly the Mk2 was NOT cleared to fly by Boscombe Down but was pushed into service anyway?

Lastly, my condolences to those of you that knew the RAF crew and passengers.
You have understood the situation perfectly.
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Old 5th Jun 2022, 10:20
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ShyTorque

Thank you. PM sent.

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