Climb power down the ILS

[chickenwings]

Anybody know about a mishandled go around a few years back at Melbourne airport that had an airbus decending down the ILS from the MDA with climb power set?

[Capt Fathom]

Do a search on the ATSB website!

[swh]

Anybody know about a mishandled go around a few years back at Melbourne airport that had an airbus decending down the ILS from the MDA with climb power set?

It is normal for an Airbus to be in the climb detent on the ILS with the autothrust engaged, crew would put the aircraft into the climb detent after takeoff, it will remain there for the rest of the flight including during an approach, and move it back to idle in the flare.

[compressor stall]

You’re probably thinking of the A320 missed approach from minima and they set FLX MCT detent, not TOGA.

They didn’t pick the mistake by reading the FMA in a timely manner as the company had bumped it down the SOPSs.

they kept descending. Go to 40 feet by the time they picked it and went around.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24388/aair200705576_Prelim.pdf

Edit - full report here. https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/793232/ao2007044.pdf

[KRUSTY 34]

Yep, I remember the Jetstar CEO and new head of safety being quizzed about this in the Senate enquiry.

how they wriggled out of it had more to do with political clout and a spineless regulator, than any satisfactory answers!

[A320 Flyer]

Can anyone say TOGA tap

[Maisk Rotum]

Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this **** had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.

[kitchen bench]

Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this **** had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.

Interesting reading that report.

[morno]

Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this **** had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.

Leave the ‘89 grievances at the door buddy, no one cares anymore.

[greybeard]

Be careful of history, those who ignore it tend to repeat it

[das Uber Soldat]

Completely normal SOP. Any 4 engine Boeing with two not producing noise , stand the noise levers up while descending on the glide, gear up, flaps eventually to 1 then push TOGA and climb. Trouble is the wizzkids I worked for in JQ in that era were into AN scab consolidation of troops and reinventing the wheel. They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT. Boeing does this beautifully by limiting the VS to 2000fpm with the first push og TOGA. These guys writing this **** had all recently been FO's on Boeings in a large Chinese speaking Airline that had a history of parking aeroplanes where they should not normally be. Airbus is full noise for GA- caught out more than a few crews and fatal to one in Nagoya. So our hero ex AN scabs go to do the the TOGA tap but did not hit the TOGA stop engaging SRS. So what happens. The FDs still drive them down the ILS but with Continuous power- ie no Autothrust. The rest you will have to read on the report.

The pilots involved had never worked for Ansett in their lives.

Pull your head in.

[BuzzBox]

It was called the TOGA Tap. Push the levers to TOGA then straight back to MCT.

Funnily enough, the A350 has a 'soft' go-around mode that's activated by selecting the thrust levers to TOGA then back to FLX/MCT. The GA SOFT mode limits the vertical speed to about 2,000 ft/min.

[tossbag]

Leave the ‘89 grievances at the door buddy, no one cares anymore.

It appears to me that the effects of what happened in 89 are still affecting the aviation industry here.

Be careful of history, those who ignore it tend to repeat it

So yeah, I always have that ^ in mind.

[C441]

Funnily enough, the A350 has a 'soft' go-around mode that's activated by selecting the thrust levers to TOGA then back to FLX/MCT. The GA SOFT mode limits the vertical speed to about 2,000 ft/min.
As does the A380 following one of the ‘batch’ upgrades quite a few years ago.

[Derfred]

So Airbus have failed to learn from Jetstar?

[compressor stall]

As does the A380 following one of the ‘batch’ upgrades quite a few years ago.

And the A320 NEO. I think the A350 and A330 NEO are the only ones for which is it standard fit out through.

Derfred, I think you're fishing, but if you look at the new SOP with the SGA mode you still have to go to TOGA, confirm the FMA, then pull back to FLX MCT then (after gear and flap) confirm the FMA again. (I underlined the differences for you :ok:). And in any case, the response the the SGA function was developed due to somatogravic illusion issues with the high dynamic manoeuvre, not to ignore the FMA. The procedure referenced above was a home baked company approved manoeuvre developed with well meaning intent, but without OEM approval and very very nearly ended in tears.

[exfocx]

Mask Rotum: "They put an INTAM ( yes it was called that because that's what they called it in AN)( TJ of QF and AN infamy may have had something to do with that) saying this is the recommended GA procedure. It was called the TOGA Tap"

Bulldung! I was with AN for 10 yrs and never heard of an INTAM, the TOGA Tap I recall well.

[43Inches]

So if this so called TOGA tap was so bad, why did AN never have a go-round issue over 13 years of operating the A320? I mean I find it hard to believe a procedure from a mob that successfully operated the type for over a decade would suddenly founder the opening years of a new company. Or have posters forgotten AN had Airbus. Or are we saying that some Boeing drivers (unrelated to AN) imported the procedure from 737s over to Airbus?

[morno]

You can go a long time doing an incorrect, unapproved procedure, before it just has all those holes in the cheese line up and then you end up with a near catastrophic event.

Or am I supposed to say something along the lines of “because Ansett were so good”?

[Ollie Onion]

TOGA Tap was a published procedure for years especially when a low GA altitude is published, in the case above the TOGA TAP PROCEDURE wasn’t correctly applied and GA mode was never engaged so all that happened was the application of power, an associated pitch up leading the crew to assume a go around had commenced before the aircraft pitched down and accelerated towards the runway in an effort to recapture the Glideslope, Golden Rule. ‘Know your FMA’.

[Veruka Salt]

I was flying the A330 at the time (not JQ).

The ‘TOGA Tap’ was titled ‘Go Around from Intermediate Altitude’ in our manuals, and was an Airbus approved procedure.

However, why anyone would do one from DA in fog eludes me. Why not just push the thrust levers to TOGA and let the aircraft do its thing?

[Gnadenburg]

There’s a fair degree of bitter mistruth about Ansett on this thread. Ansett never taught a TOGA-tap nor do I believe the crew in this incident were Ex-AN. I’ve flown with three Airbus operators with seven lots of SOP’s and Ansett’s initial training on flying the the A320 was excellent if of reasonable competency. Let’s not understate reasonable competency here, Airbus 320/330 has crashed four times on GA, with Nagoya stated above, being different technology in the A300. Anecdotally, the rapid rise of Jetstar with the Airbus wasn’t without its drama.

Ansett had an incident on GA in Sydney in the early days. The Capt took over however the FO still had side-stick input and the GA performance wasn’t met. Soon after the takeover procedure formally stated a requirement to push the takeover switch ( common sense )

[morno]

If memory serves me correct, there is a “soft go around” mode as an option on the A320, but it’s not available on the aircraft with IAE engines.

[exfocx]

[QUOTE=Gnadenburg;11233944]There’s a fair degree of bitter mistruth about Ansett on this thread. Ansett never taught a TOGA-tap nor do I believe the crew in this incident were Ex-AN. I’ve flown with three Airbus operators with seven lots of SOP’s and Ansett’s initial training on flying the the A320 was excellent if of reasonable competency. Let’s not understate reasonable competency here, Airbus 320/330 has crashed four times on GA, with Nagoya stated above, being different technology in the A300. Anecdotally, the rapid rise of Jetstar with the Airbus wasn’t without its drama.

Hi Gnadenburg, I would agree it was never actually officially "taught" but it was put out there as a suggested method to avoid flap overspeed at light weights with low GA alts. I personally remember, but it was just a suggested method and wasn't pushed as it wasn't in the ops manual (my memory is this was before the intro of FCOM).

[Lookleft]

A few facts about that incident:

The crew did two GA,s that day, the second one off 16. On the second GA TOGA was correctly applied, they then diverted to Avalon.
On the first GA the crew did not continue the climb to the GA altitude of 4000'. For some reason, not properly explained in the report, they flew level with the gear up at an altitude that set off the "Too Low Gear" warning. That warning was cancelled by the use of the Emergency Cancel button.
The PIC had never flown for AN but had been one of the many pilot beneficiaries of the Impulse purchase by Qantas.

Any suggestion that the incident was somehow the result of AN SOPs or culture is complete fantasy.

[KRUSTY 34]

I don’t believe it was an AN SOP issue, but a SOP issue nonetheless?

[Lookleft]

Krusty the GA procedures had been altered by moving the order in which things are done. The crew did a second GA off 16 and got it right. What was the difference? The PF actually moved the thrust levers to the TOGA detent. The cockup had very little to do with the GA SOP and a lot to do with the PF not moving the thrust levers to the GA detent and not reading the FMA ,and to compound the error by not climbing to the GA Altitude. Even at FLX/MCT, it would have had sufficient performance to get to 4000'.

[43Inches]

That's what I get from the report, that the TL was advanced forward of the FLX/MCT Detent, but it does not say it reached the TOGA. Therefore the mode never changed and it continued to follow the ILS, then all sorts of things happened in a flurry to recover the situation before terra-firma was involved. Nothing to do with SOP more to do with not confirming FMA change and when it didn't do what it was supposed to the startle effect crept in.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

There but for the grace of god go we all.

It was a screw up but as always, there were many factors that aligned to make this event possible.

Its worth remembering that you didnt need to have worked for AN to have been exposed to the " TOGA TAP ".

This " procedure " had been trained throughout the introduction of the A 320 into JQ service. The pityfull amount of training that ALL recieved in those days and diluted SOPS directly led to this occurrence.

It is worth noting that the operating crew did have the common DF to get themselves out of bad situation. Learning experience for all? Definitely. First time a mode awerness issue has happened in Aus? Definately not.

All while the CEO was telling us how he liked painting rocks.

MCD.

[Lookleft]

It is worth noting that the operating crew did have the common DF to get themselves out of bad situation.

Eventually, but not before they levelled off at 750' with the gear up and responded to the "Too Low Gear" warning by pressing the Emergency Cancel button! Thats not in anyone's SOP.

[Jester64]

I think after this incident Airbus amended the GA procedure so that the FMA callout was made before the positive climb callout, thus ensuring that the GA phase had been activated.

[compressor stall]

I think after this incident Airbus amended the GA procedure so that the FMA callout was made before the positive climb callout, thus ensuring that the GA phase had been activated.

you’ve got that arse about. Read the report linked above . Airbus was always FMA first. It was JQ alone that changed the OEM procedure and pushed the FMA mode call / check down the list.
The change that Airbus made after this event was highlighting the extant note to the “check and read the FMA” with some additional verbiage to tell you what to read. The underlying manufacturer procedure never changed.

[Jester64]

you’ve got that arse about. Read the report linked above . Airbus was always FMA first. It was JQ alone that changed the OEM procedure and pushed the FMA mode call / check down the list.
The change that Airbus made after this event was highlighting the extant note to the “check and read the FMA” with some additional verbiage to tell you what to read. The underlying manufacturer procedure never changed.

thanks for correcting 👍🏻