When did Hawk stop being used as fighter in Cold War?

[Jimlad1]

Hi Folks

I understand that the Hawk T1a was equipped to carry missiles and gun pod to work with the Tornado force in the Cold War. Does anyone happen to know when this practise stopped - am assuming that it wasn't of value past 1991?

[212man]

Hi Folks

I understand that the Hawk T1a was equipped to carry missiles and gun pod to work with the Tornado force in the Cold War. Does anyone happen to know when this practise stopped - am assuming that it wasn't of value past 1991?
Wiki says 1983-86

[ORAC]

Ohh god - the dreaded Mixed Fighter Force (MFF). Everyone hated it. The F3 either accelerated and left them behind or had to slow down for them. They weren’t any use BVR and the F3s didn’t want to go the merge.

Only real use, as with the Hunters, was point CAP at the airfields. So they were given to ATC and spent their time on deckchairs on the ORP at RS2 to scramble for cover airfield attacks,

[MAINJAFAD]

Ohh god - the dreaded Mixed Fighter Force (MFF). Everyone hated it. The F3 either accelerated and left them behind or had to slow down for them. They weren’t any use BVR and the F3s didn’t want to go the merge.

Only real use, as with the Hunters, was point CAP at the airfields. So they were given to ATC and spent their time on deckchairs on the ORP at RS2 to scramble for cover airfield attacks,

Last time I saw them do that was at Wattisham during an exercise in mid 1991. The aircraft came from the TWU's at Brawdy and Chivenor. Brawdy shut in 1992 and the Flying Training System for Advanced Flying Training and TWU was switched to a system known as Mirror Image that had both phases done at Valley and Chivenor until 1994 when everything was consolidated to Valley. UK MSAM coverage totally died at the start of July 1991 and the USAF Funded Rapier Squadrons disbanded around 1994. AIM-9 equipped Hawks were used for A to A training when I left Ty Croes in July 1995.

[Just This Once...]

I think I was on the last exercise before the (lack-of) capability was formally withdrawn. Log book not to hand but circa 1993 would not be far off and again, from a failing memory, I think we deployed from Chivenor to Leuchars as part of their TacEval. Initially we operated from a HAS site, eventually getting the aircraft tele-brief plug clean enough to work, before dispersing to a civilian airfield. At no time were we part of an F3 package, just worked / got-in-the-way independently, often very far over a cold North Sea.

[Jimlad1]

Thanks all, very helpful!

[typerated]

It always seemed a poor idea.
Perfect for a Mallet Blow and the Hawks could CAP Croquet Lighthouse and have 90% of the muds coming past in sight.
Hard to Imagine the Soviets getting that close to the UK though?

If the Hawk was to be a light fighter surely would have been better going to Germany and running CAPs on the North Germany plain. Much more likely to bump into Soviet Tactical Aviation. (although perhaps not after what we see in Ukraine)

But I think the Hawk would have been much better in wartime being used for Emergency CAS – as Harrier Replacements/ Additions in Germany. Much the same as the Germans used the Alpha Jet. Although perhaps not a popular plan with any crews!

[ORAC]

Anyone remember the Nimrod/Canberra LOPRO profile?

That was a good one way wartime role for 100 Sqn…

[BEagle]

I recall Mixed Fighter Farce during an exercise at Wattisham in the early '80s. Dispersed to the ORP, whilst waiting for something to happen, we were treated to the sight of a MFF Hawk landing with the bang seat pole poking out of the rear canopy... Later we heard that it was because a fighter controller on a jolly had managed to eject himself.

A rather less than sympathetic comment came from a 'senior' F-4 mate - "A fighter controller? Best place for the beggars is the North Sea - with or without a dinghy!"

[MAINJAFAD]

I think I was on the last exercise before the (lack-of) capability was formally withdrawn. Log book not to hand but circa 1993 would not be far off and again, from a failing memory, I think we deployed from Chivenor to Leuchars as part of their TacEval. Initially we operated from a HAS site, eventually getting the aircraft tele-brief plug clean enough to work, before dispersing to a civilian airfield. At no time were we part of an F3 package, just worked / got-in-the-way independently, often very far over a cold North Sea.

Sounds about right, OR for a replacement for Bloodhound Mk 2 was quietly dropped in the same year.

[BEagle]

I do indeed recall 'LOPRO' exercises with disposable Canberras in my Vulcan days. But to brighten up the excrutiating boredom of MRR, we also did the odd 'SELPRO' event - one on occasion blundering across a number of HM's war canoes being shadowed by some Russian ships! RWR audio was quite impressive - as were the instructions from the maritime controller inviting us to....Foxtrot Oscar!!

[MAINJAFAD]

I recall MFF during an exercise at Wattisham in the early '80s. Dispersed to the ORP, whilst waiting for something to happen, we were treated to the sight of a MFF Hawk landing with the bang seat pole poking out of the rear canopy... Later we heard that it was because a fighter controller on a jolly had managed to eject himself.

A rather less than sympathetic comment came from a 'senior' F-4 mate - "A fighter controller? Best place for the beggars is the North Sea - with or without a dinghy!"

Rumour has it he had actually paid attention when learning the dingy drills. First heard the story when back seat rides at Valley were offered to the guys at the Radar site at Ty Croes in 92/93. When I made a comment that an ACM sortie would be cool, the SOpsO replied, Not going to happen, they don't allow them anymore after said Fighter Controller banged out. It was actually the second Pax bang out from a Hawk that safely landed in the space of a week. The first one was a Circus linely who banged out of a Red after the aircraft suffered a low level wire strike.

[NickPilot]

Rumour has it he had actually paid attention when learning the dingy drills. First heard the story when back seat rides at Valley were offered to the guys at the Radar site at Ty Croes in 92/93. When I made a comment that an ACM sortie would be cool, the SOpsO replied, Not going to happen, they don't allow them anymore after said Fighter Controller banged out. It was actually the second Pax bang out from a Hawk that safely landed in the space of a week. The first one was a Circus linely who banged out of a Red after the aircraft suffered a low level wire strike.


I have to ask...does one get a tie in such circumstances?

[tartare]

Crikey - that'd leave the driver with a bit of a headache - I assume it'd set off the det cord...?

[ORAC]

Nickname of Wedge (simplest form of tool known to man). Swore blind he never touched the handle.

MB spent millions dredging for the seat to prove otherwise but it was never found.

[CAEBr]

Crikey - that'd leave the driver with a bit of a headache - I assume it'd set off the det cord...?
His ears might be ringing from the rear MDC going off but his MDC and canopy would be intact. The front and rear MDCs are separate and triggered on ejection by the seat movement.

[Busta]

I seem to remember using Hawks for LoPro, late 70's. Nothing about it in logbook.

[BEagle]

Are you sure those were LOPROs? Or perhaps KELTEX simulated ASM attacks on HM's grey war canoes, which previously used Gnats from Valley?

[chevvron]

I recall Mixed Fighter Farce during an exercise at Wattisham in the early '80s. Dispersed to the ORP, whilst waiting for something to happen, we were treated to the sight of a MFF Hawk landing with the bang seat pole poking out of the rear canopy... Later we heard that it was because a fighter controller on a jolly had managed to eject himself.


Why was he fiddling about beween his legs; oh of course, fighter controller..

[ORAC]

25 years as an FC - never lost a controller…

[AnglianAV8R]

I have vague recollection of an exercise in, I think, 1978. Possibly a Mallet Blow ? I watched the height finders at Boulmer nodding up & down, then a colonial F111 came thundering across the site at uber low level and a Hunter jumped it over Lynemouth Bay. I reckon the Hunter claimed the kill, but Boulmer was probably counted as being compromised in the process. I think the Hunters were based at Newcastle Airport for the exercise and were from TWU.

[tartare]

His ears might be ringing from the rear MDC going off but his MDC and canopy would be intact. The front and rear MDCs are separate and triggered on ejection by the seat movement.

Interesting - didn't realise they were separate.
Just remember the liney saying "be really gentle and don't slam the canopy shut..."

[CAEBr]

Interesting - didn't realise they were separate.
Just remember the liney saying "be really gentle and don't slam the canopy shut..."

Yes, it was normal practice for the ground crew to turn around while the canopy was shut just in case. In reality though, the bigger issue was closing the canopy on shutdown. It was not unknown for something to be left or trapped in the cockpit that then triggered the mechanism on closure. I remember one being blown on a delivery flight, in Bangkok I believe it was, when a damp flying jacket hung over the headbox was trapped by the mechanism and blew the canopy. Luckily, without staging, it largely went over his head or it could have been serious. Mind you it was still a sudden shock and getting a replacement delivered - as dangerous air cargo - was another story.

[Just This Once...]

Nickname of Wedge (simplest form of tool known to man). Swore blind he never touched the handle.

MB spent millions dredging for the seat to prove otherwise but it was never found.

To be fair, a fatal accident many years later revealed that this incident, as the ejectee described, was technically plausible.

[Friedlander]

I cannot say whether Wedge did or did not pull the Y&B, but my initial view (based on statistics as much as anything else) was that an uncommanded ejection seemed extremely unlikely.

However, at a rare School of FC lunch one day at Boulmer (mid-90s), the man himself was unexpectedly called upon by the assembled masses to tell his tale and he did so lucidly and pretty convincingly.

The one message I took away was that he was just as pissed off about MB's (?) failure to locate the seat as they were, but for the opposite reason.

The failure subsequently to give him a tie seemed to me to be a bit mean, though I don't recall him being particularly bothered by it - I doubt he would have worn it in any case.

[teeonefixer]

Yes, it was normal practice for the ground crew to turn around while the canopy was shut just in case. In reality though, the bigger issue was closing the canopy on shutdown. It was not unknown for something to be left or trapped in the cockpit that then triggered the mechanism on closure. I remember one being blown on a delivery flight, in Bangkok I believe it was, when a damp flying jacket hung over the headbox was trapped by the mechanism and blew the canopy. Luckily, without staging, it largely went over his head or it could have been serious. Mind you it was still a sudden shock and getting a replacement delivered - as dangerous air cargo - was another story.
Something similar happened to a Red Arrow many years ago on arrival at a wet Leuchars (I think). Luckily SEngO and the crew stood nearby weren't hurt.

[Courtney Mil]

Back to the topic, MFF had its place. It was just a matter of understanding how to use (or not to use) the concept. I did it as both the fighter and the little guy trying to hang on.
The first problem was guys just glancing through the “SOPs” without giving much thought to the practicalities. It worked best when the fighter(s) took their Hawks into an engagement with due consideration to the speed and acceleration differences WITHOUT COMPROMISING THE OVERRIDING FIGHTER TACTICS. Depending on the threat being engaged, there were opportunities to get the Hawks to a position where they could employ AIM9 bringing more missiles to larger formations; the fighters could either press or separate as they saw fit.
At the other extreme (e.g. High Flyers or Super Sonics) the fighters simply had to ditch the Hawks and fly the appropriate profile.
There was always the option to leave the Hawks behind to set up a Vis CAP or for them to continue to follow the fighters to the intercept using GCI, AWACS or (rarely) commentary from the fighters.
When doing it as one of the Hawks, we just had to accept that we may get an engagement with the fighters, we may get an engagement behind them or we may be a (rather poor) chaff bundle for the fighters.
The concept was as flexible as the fighter crews were willing to be and how much effort we put into it.
It ended the at the same time as the Cold War - it wasn’t seen as necessary and other factors meant that there were fewer Hawks that could be spared from their primary role to practice it.
The greatest benefit was that the Tankers didn’t seem to recognise that not all the aircraft from one formation were AAR capable. My challenge was to see how long a Victor would let me sit just behind the drogue before being told to “go away”.

[KiloB]

Interesting to hear of the problems MFF experienced because of the gap in performance; as the ‘Loyal Wingman’ concepts now being touted seem to have the same sort of gap?

[ORAC]

Don’t seem the issues as being the same.

LW will be of comparable performance and radar equipped carrying BVR weapons - the aim being to deploy them forward to vastly extend engagement range, and ideally tangle the enemy in a fur ball whilst the manned fighters keep out and engage using their own weapons.

If L16 had been available to the Hawk releasing them from the F3 apron strings, maybe it would have been more productive. But, as with Bader’s big wing, the logistics of actually getting everyone in the right place and right time were so difficult it never seemed to work well enough to produce any of the claimed gains.

[Courtney Mil]

Putting a formation together to practice MFFO was simple. Vector the Hawks to join a fighter CAP, launch the Hawks behind the fighters or, occasionally, form up as part of a COMAO package. We even tried it once as part of a HVAAA exercise just to make the HVAAD job even more difficult. If by “in place” you mean basing, deploying a handful of Hawks to a fighter base for an exercise was a regular and easy occurrence - often arranged through a couple of phone calls or through including a few lines during the exercise planning. Especially easy when the Hawks and the fighters were in the same Group.
As I said yesterday, MFF only works where it is not allowed to become an impediment to the overriding fighter tactics, thus avoiding the negative consequences of Leigh-Mallory’s Big Wings.

[ORAC]

No, I mean actually getting them airborne and joined up in a formation at the right time and place to engage an enemy formation.

They only times it worked were when it was preplanned, something with which the real enemy would have presumably have been reluctant to cooperate.

In live exercises I can’t remember a single occasion it worked. And I was an FC/MC on most of the occasions we tried it through the 80s and early 90s.

Personally I found a pain in the ass and operationally ineffectual. As I say, Bader’s Big Wing comes to mind.

[Courtney Mil]

ORAC, I think you’ve missed my point. The baseline is that as an operational concept it is a bolt-on, not a discrete tasking. Setting up MFFO as as a discrete exercise comes with the problem of coordinating the fighters and the Hawks to conduct that particular exercise - that wasn’t such a big deal. Launching aircraft just to practice MFFO defeats the object of it not having an adverse effect on the fighter tactics because, by definition, nothing meaningful is going to happen until all the assets are in place, the same as the artificiality of not starting an engagement until the attackers, defenders, GCI/AWACS, airspace, sometimes tankers are all ready to start.
in my opinion the best training value was simply adding an extra asset to a rolling battle by simply launching a number of Hawks to an existing CAP, which is why larger scale scale exercises were always the best opportunity to practice it - that was not difficult with the Hawks on hand (and forward deployed) - administratively no different to scrambling fighters to CAP replacement. As I said before, the Hawks had to be an option and accept that they wouldn’t be taken to every engagement - that in itself offered alternative training opportunities by allocating them to fallback vis CAPs to attack leakers from any engagement that they didn’t make it to.
For sure, everyone benefitted from conducting it as a canned exercise, but in reality everybody only needed to do that once to become competent - even the ex-jag pilots that I used to take to the MOBs to do it worked it out after trying it once.