Virgin Australia - Phoenix Rising from the Ashes?

[v1bang]

it’s been a couple of years since a thread regarding Virgin Australia was created so I hope this gets the ball rolling.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————

With the dust settling from the Virgin Australia administration there seems to be new rumours on the ramp regarding the future of VA and VARA.

Latest news suggests Bain capital are investing in Virgins future for the long term despite reports they wanted to float the company next year (2023). With major debt ties finally cut it seems the airline has no where to go than up.

Despite their loss of circa $76.8mil (considerably less than previous years under previous management) in fiscal year 2021, and Covid finally being over, will we see Virgin make a push for the skies or proceed with caution with Bain heaving at the reigns?

I am no expert but I would suggest the best way forward for Virgin would be to consolidate its domestic operation around Australia, stay competitive with Bonza and Qantas and restart international operations ASAP. With Qantas operating almost all of international flights out of Australia under the careful watch of the ACCC it seems ridiculous that none of the 787’s that Virgin hinted at buying years ago are even on the cards yet. Another opportunity wasted.

Are the 25 737 MAX’s arriving in 2023 replacing the dinosaur 737’s hobbling around their network or will they be used to supplement the short haul international network out of the east coast and potentially create new opportunities out of Perth?

The newest rumours on the block suggest that VA offshoot VARA will obtain Boeing 737-700 jets. Rumours suggest that VA have purchased 10 ex KLM 700 series and have them operate on the west coast. With an ever ageing Fokker 100 fleet surely these jets are intended as a replacement? Why though would VA commit to these aircraft rather than investing in their growing A320 fleet and run A319’s in the Pilbara? Common Airbus fleet type would streamline maintenance, crewing and general ops?

From a commercial standpoint, one would assume the 737-700 would limit VARA’s ASK, compromise its ability to consolidate its position servicing the WA market and more importantly affect its ability to compete against an ever expanding Network fleet? Or are these aircraft simply replacement frames for the F100’s servicing the FIFO market? From what I’ve been told, the F100 runs rings around the 737 in regards to its performance out of high elevation high temperature airports - does the 737 even make sense in the summer? Jeez I hope they got the numbers right there if it’s true.

The purchase of the 737-700’s is also a complicated move in regards to the AOC’s. I can only assume that VARA still have the A320, F100, F70 and ATR-72 on their AOC. It seems silly to add another aircraft on the list when VA already have the 737 on their AOC? Is this Bains subtle way of ditching VARA and absorbing all operations under the VA AOC or rather a strategic move to have VARA operate 737 routes for much less in WA just like network is doing for Qantas?

I miss the presence that Virgin once had in Australian aviation. I miss seeing their 330’s running East-West and tripplers running to LAX. I hope to see this amazing airline achieve huge success in the future because we all know at times they offer a damn lot more than other airlines do in this country.

[SHVC]

Are you JH? I do agree that if VA get WB, QF really needs to lift their game from staff to CEO attitude at all levels is in a rapid free fall.

[PoppaJo]

I was told the -700s are going East coast in an effort to hold onto the 50 odd Tiger slots, and less rely on Alliance in smaller markets in the longer run.

[Red69]

I believe the 700’s are leased not owned. I also believe a decision is yet to be announced as to where they will end up. The decision was meant to have been made in early April.

Hopefully widebodies are on the cards too. They have gotten rid of the majority of their debt, have regained market share and a have a pretty valuable frequent flyer program. They also managed to cut their cost base through administration. Bain picked up a bargain and will make an absolute motza out of it. However they could also sit back and take in the yearly profits which could be in the billions if they play their cards right.

Meanwhile the opposition now has more debt than virgin did when it went into administration.

Both airlines also have disgruntled staff. Changing the attitudes towards staff and their T&C’s could make a difference towards the airlines success.

[DanV2]

The rumored ex-KLM 73Gs are likely to be for East Coast operations, and probably on the marginal routes where VA would've used the Alliance F100s.

[KRUSTY 34]

The Turboprop arrangement with Link Airways is going exceptionally well, if the loads are anything to go by!

[PoppaJo]

Highly likely the MAX10 will slip into 2024 while they sort out the alerting issue amongst other certification problems. Wouldn’t expect any word from Boeing until the end of the year.

They will need all the aircraft they can get in the meantime.

[belongamick]

Both airlines also have disgruntled staff. Changing the attitudes towards staff and their T&C’s could make a difference towards the airlines success.

​​​​​​Lol
I like the idea... but I've got some well founded doubts :E

[unobtanium]

Qantas is working very hard to helping Virgin's recovery. zero investment, shocking management, poor treatment of staff, love of outsourcing and overall arrogance means they've handed everything to their competitors, all of them risen out of nothing (rex) or from the ashes (virgin).

does a great mardi gras though.

[TimmyTee]

Why go with the 737-700 series anyway? What’s the point of leasing them when they could no doubt find an aircraft with more seats at a similar price? 737-700 seems to be a huge step in the wrong direction if they need more bums on seats?

Lower demand routes and I believe pavement concessions

[Red69]

I think an important item to note is the debt levels and cost base. Virgin are being very rational with their growth/expansion. They aren’t chasing the competition. They are doing their own thing and doing it well.

Qantas on the other hand are laden with debt and with an upcoming fleet renewal, will have some significant debt/cash outflow to come.

Virgin achieved a sweet deal on the max’s from my understanding with a fair portion of the order already paid for by the previous owners.

Just some food for thought.

[tossbag]

However they could also sit back and take in the yearly profits which could be in the billions if they play their cards right.

:D :} comedy gold that. Billions of dollars eh??

I like that they're back. And they're doing a great job so far. Have enjoyed flying with them. But billions of dollars of profit, that's really funny.

[Icarus2001]

I hope to see this amazing airline achieve huge success in the future because we all know at times they offer a damn lot more than other airlines do in this country. I hope they do well but you lost me there…What do they offer that is a “damn lot more” than other airlines in Australia?
In what way are VA amazing? Was it the $2 initial issue price followed by a decade below sixty cents or the billions lost and written off by creditors to give them a clean sheet to start with?

PS Why would VARA want to ditch the A320s that they operate for 737s?

[v1bang]

I hope they do well but you lost me there…What do they offer that is a “damn lot more” than other airlines in Australia?
In what way are VA amazing? Was it the $2 initial issue price followed by a decade below sixty cents or the billions lost and written off by creditors to give them a clean sheet to start with?

PS Why would VARA want to ditch the A320s that they operate for 737s?

I guess I was hopeful that Virgin offers better customer service, customer support etc but with Covid its hard to gauge how accurate that is.

The A320’s are leased so why not let them expire and use the 73’s?

[v1bang]

The Turboprop arrangement with Link Airways is going exceptionally well, if the loads are anything to go by!

That mini alliance is surprising as well! Imagine booking a virgin ticket from Sydney to Canberra and ending up on that Saab! Next time I’d be booking direct with Qantas with the ‘risk’ of being put on a dash 8 as a worst case scenario! The rebranding to Link Airways was the best thing corporate air ever did - put them in bed with the big guys!

[v1bang]

The rumored ex-KLM 73Gs are likely to be for East Coast operations, and probably on the marginal routes where VA would've used the Alliance F100s.

This makes sense - take back some of the work that VA are palming off to Alliance. Imagine what they could have done if they kept their ATR’s!

[Red69]

:D :} comedy gold that. Billions of dollars eh??

I like that they're back. And they're doing a great job so far. Have enjoyed flying with them. But billions of dollars of profit, that's really funny.

Have a look at the profits Qantas were bringing in pre covid. VA have a very low cost base now. Additionally they have much better management; people who are actually incentivised to turn a profit.

Not saying it will happen overnight but it could well happen in the next 5 years when they have a bigger network which could include wide body operations.

[v1bang]

I believe the 700’s are leased not owned. I also believe a decision is yet to be announced as to where they will end up. The decision was meant to have been made in early April.

Hopefully widebodies are on the cards too.

Meanwhile the opposition now has more debt than virgin did when it went into administration.

Seems like the staff will be waiting a long time for them to make their mind up about the future of the company! Or they’ll probably find out from the news before the company tells them anything.

I hope so too. I’d love to avoid paying Qantas fares to go anywhere out of Australia - we desperately need that healthy competition to drive the prices back down. Mind you Virgin charged a bucket load between cities when the borders opened up so who’s to say the prices will be at all cheap.

True - But Qantas have more equity and can therefore expand quicker than what Virgin can.

[mates rates]

Imagine what they could have done if they kept their EMB 190’s👍

[DanV2]

If there are any F100s at VARA that needs replacing, it's probably more likely that Bain will acquire more A320ceo leases to replace any of the F100s, especially those from the ex-Tiger Australia or ex-Tiger Singapore/Scoot fleets. Largely for commonality purposes.

[ebt]

If there are any F100s at VARA that needs replacing, it's probably more likely that Bain will acquire more A320ceo leases to replace any of the F100s, especially those from the ex-Tiger Australia or ex-Tiger Singapore/Scoot fleets. Largely for commonality purposes.

I think I read recently that VARA was taking another two A320s to add to its fleet. At some point they will need to make a call on the F100s, however all the cheap E190-E1s have now been taken up by that other operator, so a natural replacement may be some ways off. My sense is though that once a major mining company that has wants to reduce their Scope 3 emissions completes their tender process, there may be a few moves to newer equipment in the 100 seat category. Bottom line is that for some of the airports and charters that VARA flies in, the A320 will be too big and not capable, so they will need to replace the F100s, sooner rather than later.

[Icarus2001]

My sense is though that once a major mining company that has wants to reduce their Scope 3 emissions completes their tender process, there may be a few moves to newer equipment in the 100 seat category.

That is not a very long list of jet aircraft in that category.

[v1bang]

I think I read recently that VARA was taking another two A320s to add to its fleet. At some point they will need to make a call on the F100s, however all the cheap E190-E1s have now been taken up by that other operator, so a natural replacement may be some ways off. My sense is though that once a major mining company that has wants to reduce their Scope 3 emissions completes their tender process, there may be a few moves to newer equipment in the 100 seat category. Bottom line is that for some of the airports and charters that VARA flies in, the A320 will be too big and not capable, so they will need to replace the F100s, sooner rather than later.

‘Then why continue to invest in A320’s when they’re considered too big for the 100 seat market? Couldn’t they just run them on rpt services and have them half empty into the mine sites? I’m sure the mining companies would keep their risk down by staying with the 320 instead of going for another fleet type.

[whoiam]

cant wait and see how JH will destroy VOZ soon

[DanV2]

VARA's A320s are also scheduled on intra-WA RPT runs, as well as some PER-DRW and PER-ADL runs on behalf of VA mainline in-between mining charters.

[Zinfandel]

Imagine what they could have done if they kept their EMB 190’s👍
Spot on…have a look at the routes QQ are currently doing for VA in the F70/100 and the E190, they were all done by the VA in the Ejet.

The problem with VA is they think the 737 can do every route in Australia and the current management have still failed to fix this.

Australia like the rest of the world need 100 seat jets. VB had the right idea, but then JB came along and all he wanted was wide bodies.

During the GFC the Ejets saved VB has they moved a lot of the flying from 737s to the Ejets. Not one Ejet pilot was displayed or forced to move base during the GFC, yet a number of 737 pilots (FOs) were.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

PE has a lot of capital V1 Bang...

[PoppaJo]

Heard the rumour nz bases to open up in the near future for VA
You have been posting that for the last 18 months.

[AerialPerspective]

cant wait and see how JH will destroy VOZ soon

If you're alluding to the 'toxic culture' rumours in the media, ANYONE who worked at that company knows that the culture was thoroughly toxic to the point that many, many good people left or were pushed out the door who showed a modicum of talent or experience for YEARS before Bain took over. The epitome of that toxic culture was people who clearly had zero ability and zero track record constantly being promoted beyond their level of competence.

The people who knew what they were doing were easy to spot, because they didn't last long. From what I've heard, a LOT of the offending managers have gotten the boot since Jayne took over, so from my perspective, she's batting .100 so far, certainly compared to someone who run up billions in debt and even got an AO for their 'services' to the industry.

[Colonel_Klink]

If you're alluding to the 'toxic culture' rumours in the media, ANYONE who worked at that company knows that the culture was thoroughly toxic to the point that many, many good people left or were pushed out the door who showed a modicum of talent or experience for YEARS before Bain took over. The epitome of that toxic culture was people who clearly had zero ability and zero track record constantly being promoted beyond their level of competence.

The people who knew what they were doing were easy to spot, because they didn't last long. From what I've heard, a LOT of the offending managers have gotten the boot since Jayne took over, so from my perspective, she's batting .100 so far, certainly compared to someone who run up billions in debt and even got an AO for their 'services' to the industry.

Yup - apparently a toxic culture is sacking managers who were running a business that went broke.

[Red69]

You have been posting that for the last 18 months.

They probably will open a NZ base at some point. They will probably also have an EBA that pays below JetConnect.

[Red69]

If you're alluding to the 'toxic culture' rumours in the media, ANYONE who worked at that company knows that the culture was thoroughly toxic to the point that many, many good people left or were pushed out the door who showed a modicum of talent or experience for YEARS before Bain took over. The epitome of that toxic culture was people who clearly had zero ability and zero track record constantly being promoted beyond their level of competence.

The people who knew what they were doing were easy to spot, because they didn't last long. From what I've heard, a LOT of the offending managers have gotten the boot since Jayne took over, so from my perspective, she's batting .100 so far, certainly compared to someone who run up billions in debt and even got an AO for their 'services' to the industry.

There’s still a few left in flight ops that could make way for more competent staff. Hopefully the new CP makes some moves to clear out anyone deemed incompetent.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

the yearly profits which could be in the billions if they play their cards right
Have a look at the profits Qantas were bringing in pre covid.
They weren't bringing in billions regularly (in fact only once, in 2016, 2 years after a 2.8 billion loss), and there was some pretty "imaginative" accounting across the Qantas Group to even get the figures they did in the other years.
Meanwhile the opposition now has more debt than virgin did when it went into administration.
It's just taken them longer to run out of "imaginative" accounting ideas, but...they haven't ended up in administration, or sold off, so they must still be doing something right. VA are very, very lucky to even still be in existence

[ebt]

‘Then why continue to invest in A320’s when they’re considered too big for the 100 seat market? Couldn’t they just run them on rpt services and have them half empty into the mine sites? I’m sure the mining companies would keep their risk down by staying with the 320 instead of going for another fleet type.

Because it's about different horses for different courses - it's not a one-size fits all approach. Some mine strips (or other regional airports like ALH) can take A320s, others are limited to F100s or other equivalent 100 seaters, so there will always be a role for those smaller jets in FIFO. Just look across the tarmac at Network where they are still running their F100s even with the huge growth in A320s. Miners like having the ability to flex capacity (and cost) up and down as they need to, so it's better to have more than one type available.

[Red69]

They weren't bringing in billions regularly (in fact only once, in 2016, 2 years after a 2.8 billion loss), and there was some pretty "imaginative" accounting across the Qantas Group to even get the figures they did in the other years.

It's just taken them longer to run out of "imaginative" accounting ideas, but...they haven't ended up in administration, or sold off, so they must still be doing something right. VA are very, very lucky to even still be in existence

Apples and oranges.

VA has new management, new owners, a new strategy, less debt and a new cost base. It is only similar to the old VA by name.

Qf has the same (albeit great) management however a lot more debt.

Both airlines will continue to survive and be extremely profitable.

[mates rates]

Are all the mining strip runways at least 30m wide? If this is so,then the B737-700 can operate into them.I guess the problem with some of these mining contracts is they don’t need 144 seats.So they are reluctant to pay for a B737-700?

[Icarus2001]

Yes, mostly 30metre. It’s not just about which aircraft “can operate into them”. The mining airports were set up around 90-100 seat aircraft. With the big advantage of no GSE for loading as F100 and BAE146 have low door sills for the hold and can be loaded from the trolley or ground.
The mine site terminals struggle with 170+ passengers at a time leaving and arriving. They prefer frequency to volume.
The 100-115seat market remains viable for FIFO. The QF guys did not understand that when taking over Network, VARA with a Skywest heritage understood much better.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Here is an AFR articlal to brighten up your day https://www.afr.com/rear-window/no-higher-prize-than-lunch-with-jayne-hrdlicka-20220425-p5afzk

[kddk]

It’s fiire walled anyone have the full article

[ebt]

Here you go:

For Virgin Australia staff, it’s been a rocky road – and not the sort paved with chocolate and marshmallows – since management called in administrators two years ago and the airline was reborn under the ownership of private equity barbarians Bain Capital.

As the largest cohort of creditors, Virgin employees, remember, were implored to vote in favour of Bain’s takeover, and 99 per cent of them did so after Bain boss Mike Murphy offered this unambiguous assurance: “Virgin has a great management team run by Paul Scurrah, and I’d like to again reaffirm that we are backing Paul to successfully lead Virgin through the current turbulence and back into the skies.”

The very next month, Bain removed Scurrah as Virgin’s chief executive to install Jayne Hrdlicka, making a lie of Bain’s explicit assurances to Virgin’s administrators and to union leaders that she would never lead the airline (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/bain-installs-hrdlicka-at-virgin-having-promised-not-to-20201015-p565js).

A more incongruous candidate than Hrdlicka – who ran Jetstar and The a2 Milk Company without an ounce of human feeling – could scarcely have been imagined for the leadership of Virgin, a business (once) renowned for the warmth and enthusiasm of its workforce.

The past 21 months have only cemented Hrdlicka’s reputation as remarkably tone-deaf, and as a gifted self-immolator. Recall the spectacular hit job she conducted on herself in March last year with false claims (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/a2-milk-challenges-jayne-hrdlicka-s-falsehoods-20210316-p57b8w) about her time at a2 Milk. As Tennis Australia president, her speeches are a real crowd favourite at the Australian Open.

There have also been multiple reports of Virgin’s dysfunctional workplace culture and a string of senior departures. Multiple payouts were made to victims of Virgin’s PR boss Moksha Watts (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/virgin-australia-exec-quits-amid-workplace-probe-pay-outs-to-ex-staff-20211118-p59a2z) – handpicked by Hrdlicka – who then resigned to remake herself as LinkedIn’s most cloying networker.

Chief pilot Michael Fitzgerald was terminated last month after an extended period of medical leave and has taken a claim of bullying and harassment against Hrdlicka to the Fair Work Commission.
Booby prize?Speaking of tone-deaf, Virgin Australia launched a competition for its staff in September to encourage their take-up of COVID-19 vaccines (to enter, employees had to provide a copy of their vaccination certificate).

Seventh prize – of which there were 100 winners – was a pair of Virgin Australia pyjamas, useful particularly for sleeping through Hrdlicka’s next speech at the tennis.

Sixth prize was a Virgin lounge membership.

Fifth prize was a return economy trip anywhere in Australia and fourth prize was return business class flights.

Third prize was an extra week of annual leave.

Second prize was two nights on Hamilton Island, including business-class flights and accommodation for two people.

But first prize – drum roll – was lunch with Hrdlicka. There must very suddenly be a tremendous number of anti-vaxxers at Virgin Australia.

This competition closed nearly four weeks ago, on March 31, yet the winners are still to be announced. We suspect head office has contacted multiple first prize winners, each of whom has demanded a redraw.

It would require a shocking level of remoteness to believe that your frontline staff would consider an exclusive audience with their ice-cold CEO a higher reward than a free trip to paradise or a paid week off work. In fact, a disposable set of Bangladeshi-made nightwear is a far superior offer to lunch with Jayne Hrdlicka.

Personally, we’d prefer two nights’ accommodation in Belanglo State Forest and lunch with Ivan Milat. It would certainly obviate the need for a booster shot …

[tossbag]

Geeessss ^^^^^^^^^ that was pretty full on. :} Funny as **** though. Got to agree though, I'd be pretty pissed if I got first prize over second.

[Lookleft]

The knives are certainly out for her but the problem for Virgin is that if there is no Jane there is no Bain. No Bain=no money=no airline.

[t_cas]

The knives are certainly out for her but the problem for Virgin is that if there is no Jane there is no Bain. No Bain=no money=no airline.

Not entirely true.

The upside potential is large. The downside risk is Bain/JH.

They were not the only bidders even back wthen it was dire.

[Lookleft]

I'm talking about the current situation. Obviously if Bain decide to sell then JH is out of there to take her wrecking ball approach to some other unfortunate company.

[PoppaJo]

Certainly is much upside for personal bank accounts of current executives when that time comes to offload. Talking tens of millions here, each. Why else would the Woolworths ex CFO who resided over $50b revenue on $6m a year, join some $4b outfit.

[t_cas]

I'm talking about the current situation. Obviously if Bain decide to sell then JH is out of there to take her wrecking ball approach to some other unfortunate company.


Current situation yes.

JH could be ousted on a whim. This only cares about money. How they achieve it is the potential downside.

Make money? Never any doubt. For who? That’s the billion dollar question.

[Sunfish]

. V1bang ..........With the dust settling from the Virgin Australia administration there seems to be new rumours on the ramp regarding the future of VA and VARA.

Latest news suggests Bain capital are investing in Virgins future for the long term despite reports they wanted to float the company next year (2023). With major debt ties finally cut it seems the airline has no where to go than up.

.........I miss the presence that Virgin once had in Australian aviation. I miss seeing their 330’s running East-West and tripplers running to LAX. I hope to see this amazing airline achieve huge success in the future because we all know at times they offer a damn lot more than other airlines do in this country..........





Red69...........Have a look at the profits Qantas were bringing in pre covid. VA have a very low cost base now. Additionally they have much better management; people who are actually incentivised to turn a profit.

Not saying it will happen overnight but it could well happen in the next 5 years when they have a bigger network which could include wide body operations.........


........VA has new management, new owners, a new strategy, less debt and a new cost base. It is only similar to the old VA by name.

Qf has the same (albeit great) management however a lot more debt.

Both airlines will continue to survive and be extremely profitable.


Wow! Just wow! What a fantastic business opportunity! I wonder if Bain will float some shares for us general public to buy? I can't think of a better investment!

Hear is a hint boys and girls; if you are going to run an Astroturf campaign then your current two sock puppets shouldn't start posting within 24 hours of each other, nor be relatively new users and should have some pretense of a varied posting history.

[Red69]

Yes wow.

New management are making smart decisions. They are in it to make money. While staff get screwed, they can at least be assured of a job and a future. They have previously spent 10 years working under management that made a loss and teetered on the edge of going under until it happened.

VA with a single type is essentially going to be the South West of Australia. If they can replicate the profitability and culture of SWA, well then I think most folks will be happy.

[turbantime]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/virgin-australia-launch-teases-a-new-era-of-flying

[tossbag]

VA with a single type is essentially going to be the South West of Australia.

Yeah...........ahhh, except SW pay their pilots well.

[43Inches]

VA with a single type is essentially going to be the South West of Australia. If they can replicate the profitability and culture of SWA, well then I think most folks will be happy.

A lot of us said that's what they should have aimed for back before it was VA. The whole compete with QF full service was just stupid, where they had a huge opportunity to become a streamlined single type operator. Then BG getting the Ejets started the rot when they should have swallowed some pride and signed code share with Rex instead of going to war with competitors that had strong positions they should have defined their own position and filled it out. Although it seems the Australian way is to just send each other bankrupt with childish 'flood the competition' rather than seek innovative ways to attract customers and retain staff, and then realise too late, oops that sends us broke as well.

[t_cas]

A lot of us said that's what they should have aimed for back before it was VA. The whole compete with QF full service was just stupid, where they had a huge opportunity to become a streamlined single type operator. Then BG getting the Ejets started the rot when they should have swallowed some pride and signed code share with Rex instead of going to war with competitors that had strong positions they should have defined their own position and filled it out. Although it seems the Australian way is to just send each other bankrupt with childish 'flood the competition' rather than seek innovative ways to attract customers and retain staff, and then realise too late, oops that sends us broke as well.

Except if you happen to BE Qantas.

[43Inches]

QF is slowly but surely sending itself broke with the flooding mentality. The company has gone from a huge tangible business to something that if sold off today would leave the shareholders owning money to fold it up. And even if they beat VA and Rex at the domestic game, by the time it's done the next entrant will start up and so on and on. GA died the same way, CASA had a hand, but a lot of the large operators believe that undercutting is the only way to do business. Anyone who thinks $6 billion of debt is going to suddenly vaporise when rates are going up has to be kidding. Even at 5% that's $300million in profit going to keep the debt at $6B, Ie Rex annual revenue just to stop debt spiraling.

[PoppaJo]

A partial Jetstar float would solve the debt issue. However he wouldn’t do that to his precious baby. Next executive in might. I think that would be a better long term option for the Star employees also.

[SHVC]

QF is slowly but surely sending itself broke with the flooding mentality. The company has gone from a huge tangible business to something that if sold off today would leave the shareholders owning money to fold it up. And even if they beat VA and Rex at the domestic game, by the time it's done the next entrant will start up and so on and on. GA died the same way, CASA had a hand, but a lot of the large operators believe that undercutting is the only way to do business. Anyone who thinks $6 billion of debt is going to suddenly vaporise when rates are going up has to be kidding. Even at 5% that's $300million in profit going to keep the debt at $6B, Ie Rex annual revenue just to stop debt spiraling.

The “professionals” disagree with you strongly. Article in todays Australian business section.

“So quick is its pivot that top stock picker Mark Landau – from L1 Capital – believes Qantas’s share price is set to surge. “I think the shares could double over the next couple years if management can achieve their (financial year 2024) targets,” says Landau”

And this

“Landau’s prediction puts Qantas shares at about $11 over two years, while 12-month predictions from investment bank equity analysts range from $7.10 a share at Morgan Stanley, $6.90 at Barrenjoey, $6.40 at JPMorgan, and $6.30 at Jarden. Qantas shares closed at $5.31 on Wednesday.”

[43Inches]

So have you bought up the shares on that "Professional" advice because that says to me you will double your money in two years, better get on that horse.

[Beer Baron]

Anyone who thinks $6 billion of debt is going to suddenly vaporise when rates are going up has to be kidding. Even at 5% that's $300million in profit going to keep the debt at $6B, Ie Rex annual revenue just to stop debt spiraling.
Well, in the trading update last month Qantas’s debt was down to $4.5B, so it looks like $1.5B has already “vaporised”.
That’s less debt than pre-Covid apparently and that was when they were making $1B profit.

[SHVC]

So have you bought up the shares on that "Professional" advice because that says to me you will double your money in two years, better get on that horse.

Thats like saying “dump all your shares” based on your opinion. Either way hey.

[tipan13]

Interesting arrival into BNE this afternoon,
VH-VPE out of Wellcamp.

[DUXNUTZ]

Interesting arrival into BNE this afternoon,
VH-VPE out of Wellcamp.

Flightaware says VPF. Interesting tho. Is this one of the owned 777s!

[PoppaJo]

They are going back to the states they are not coming back. Likely to be parted out.

Last flight March 2020. I pity the engineers who have deal with them. Probably landed in BNE with a million problems after only a 25 min flight.

[markis10]

Flightaware says VPF. Interesting tho. Is this one of the owned 777s!

Not owned anymore, and without the cargo door option fitted hard to see anything but parting out happening

[red_dirt]

They are going back to the states they are not coming back. Likely to be parted out.

Last flight March 2020. I pity the engineers who have deal with them. Probably landed in BNE with a million problems after only a 25 min flight.

no the flight is to keep it in “a sellable condition” according to new reports

[Bumble_Pilot]

Any rumors on what the “bin announcement” is at BNE hanger next week?

[JoeTripodi]

787 announcement

[deadc]

F100 coming back

[Deano969]

Buying out Link

[mates rates]

Replacing Alliance !!

[Cypher]

Bain are floating Virgin onto the ASX then putting their stake up for sale….

;)

[PoppaJo]

I was waiting for this day to arrive. Looks like it has now come, thanks to Part 91, carriage of animals- no more restrictions!


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x330/c46dca08_f410_4a83_9f7b_0261a25aab5d_ae02999d7d01c646788a89a 18a701db72ba69e88.jpeg

[belongamick]

The return of JB!

["Littlebird"]

A significant A220 order for the east coast, recapturing some of the previous ATR routes and adding a few more.

[gamma69]

Interesting arrival into BNE this afternoon,
VH-VPE out of Wellcamp.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHVPE

On its way!

[CaramelSky]

Do any Australian airlines have firm orders for it?

[gamma69]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/virgin-australia-new-era-of-flying

All canceled for now

[LostWanderer]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHVPE

On its way!

Presumably in not the greatest mechanical shape after its long sit given it flew to Nadi at 25000 feet and I assume Hawaii at a similar altitude.

[PoppaJo]

Do any Australian airlines have firm orders for it?
I don’t think anyone would touch them regardless. 2 years plus parked with little engineering. 5 years left before hitting the scrap heap. The cost to get each ops ready would be $10m+ each, to then flog off for some lowball lease offer. Then the good fun of unexpected engineering surprises in the years following. Just pull it apart.

[DanV2]

I don’t think anyone would touch them regardless. 2 years plus parked with little engineering. 5 years left before hitting the scrap heap. The cost to get each ops ready would be $10m+ each, to then flog off for some lowball lease offer. Then the good fun of unexpected engineering surprises in the years following. Just pull it apart.

VPE is owned by the financier now. Considering the reported issues of getting VPE out of the country, I doubt any leasing company, freight airline let alone a passenger airline would be interested in this particular aircraft.

The financier is likely to get more $$ by sending the aircraft to the scrappers.

[C441]

From The Australian (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/virgin-australia-could-make-ipo-as-early-as-next-year-jayne-hrdlicka-says/news-story/221bb6021a25c08f3afdef3b8423e649) June 10:
Virgin Australia chief executive Jayne Hrdlicka says the airline has returned to profitability and is considering listing on the ASX as early as next year.

I'm betting not too many of the bond holders will be investing in the hope of recouping their losses.:rolleyes:

Jayne's popular in the same paper this morning:

Is Jayne Hrdlicka a bully? The evidence is thin. (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/corporate-life-in-australia-suggests-some-still-dont-feel-comfortable-with-a-firm-woman-in-charge/news-story/e778937a7c1f3588226a04c216d50ee0)

[Cypher]

So in other words, Bain is bailing out as early as next year.....

[Paragraph377]

From The Australian (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/virgin-australia-could-make-ipo-as-early-as-next-year-jayne-hrdlicka-says/news-story/221bb6021a25c08f3afdef3b8423e649) June 10:


I'm betting not too many of the bond holders will be investing in the hope of recouping their losses.:rolleyes:

Jayne's popular in the same paper this morning:

Is Jayne Hrdlicka a bully? The evidence is thin. (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/corporate-life-in-australia-suggests-some-still-dont-feel-comfortable-with-a-firm-woman-in-charge/news-story/e778937a7c1f3588226a04c216d50ee0)
The phrase ‘pump and dump’ is accurate.

[Red69]

You'll probably find they will off load as little of the company as they can in the IPO in order to recoup their initial outlay and retain full control of the airline. They've had the opportunity to cut costs heavily under administration unlike QF. They will continue to do well and grow their profit as long as they retain and grow market share. Just remember, the triangle is one of the most profitable set of routes in the world.

[Icarus2001]

Just remember, the triangle is one of the most profitable set of routes in the world. I hear this quite a lot. By what measure "most profitable"? Do you have a source for this information?

Virgin were flying this "most profitable route" before they went bankrupt, did not seem to help.

[Red69]

It didn't seem to help them when they had management racking up debt like no tomorrow and paying stupid amounts of money for aircraft leases. These are simply some of the busiest routes in the world. If you have competent management who manage their yield, it's simply a cash cow. Without the triangle, VA would have gone into administration a long time before covid.

[Paragraph377]

Just remember, the triangle is one of the most profitable set of routes in the world.
It is only a profitable route/triangle if you market the route properly, hedge your fuel correctly, offer a service that keeps people coming back or at least interested, and so the list goes on. Many good, profitable, fail safe companies globally have gone tits up due to mismanagement, poor culture or a piss poor C-suite at the helm.

[MickG0105]

I hear this quite a lot. By what measure "most profitable"? Do you have a source for this information?

Virgin were flying this "most profitable route" before they went bankrupt, did not seem to help.
Pre-pandemic, SYD-MEL was ranked the number two most profitable route in the world according Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/08/13/most-profitable-airline-routes/?sh=62072006963a).

Sounds about right on a straight revenue dollar/km flown basis.

Of course, given sufficient aptitude and application, it wouldn't be difficult to stuff that up. Revenue is one thing, costs are an entirely different matter.

[DanV2]

VA announcing expansion of its 737 International Network, OOL-DPS to commence at the end of March 2023. The ultimate 'bogan bus' route.

VA currently has also scheduled in BNE/SYD to VLI/APW (and has opened them for booking) to start at the end of March 2023 as well.

[Icarus2001]

Thanks MickG…

2. Melbourne – Sydney

The service between Australia’s two biggest cities earned Qantas Airways some $861m last year, with an average revenue per hour of $23,773. It is one of four domestic routes that make up the top ten, and the only one outside North America. It was the only one of the ten most lucrative services to post higher revenue in 2018/19, although there was only a modest 1.4% rise from $849m the year before.


Revenue per hour, as you know, is not a measure of profitability. So still looking for a source for that claim.

[MickG0105]

Thanks MickG…



Revenue per hour, as you know, is not a measure of profitability. So still looking for a source for that claim.
Revenue per hour (or kilometre) - cost per same unit over revenue gives you profitability. Sydney - Melbourne sees relatively very high revenue (average fare price) by pretty much any measure. If you take the latest BITRE discount fare data of $130 for SYD-MEL you're looking at around 18 cents per km in revenue. The average revenue per passenger kilometre for that route is going to sit well into the 20 cents per km range. There aren't many routes that give you that sort of coin.

CASK ex-fuel should be sub 9 cents. Given the pax density on the route you get load factors and aircraft utilisation that are relatively very high, so CASK for that route is probably closer to 8 cents ex-fuel.

That sort of revenue V cost dynamic is not common.

[ShandywithSugar]

VA announcing expansion of its 737 International Network, OOL-DPS to commence at the end of March 2023. The ultimate 'bogan bus' route.

VA currently has also scheduled in BNE/SYD to VLI/APW (and has opened them for booking) to start at the end of March 2023 as well.

YBCG-WADD

Where will the tech stop be? Tindal? Derby? OOL PER is limited let alone to WADD with alternate

[TimmyTee]

Max8 solution?

[non_state_actor]

YBCG-WADD Where will the tech stop be? Tindal? Derby? OOL PER is limited let alone to WADD with alternate

The NG will make that non stop easily. It's shorter than both SYD and MEL and out of the winds

[Ollie Onion]

Yes, truely a victorious emergence from the Ashes, went bankrupt, restructured and wrote off debt leaving suppliers millions out of pock, sacked a load of staff, shutdown part of the airline, paid themselves massive bonuses and started again from a debt free position….. truely remarkable.

[TimmyTee]

Incoming QF angels! (or whatever the cheap budget version of angels are called)

[Global Aviator]

YBCG WADD approx 2400nm, seasonal winds up to 40ish on the nose one way. Never driven a 737, no idea if it will do it. The 738 Max certainly will as SQ flies it to Cairns.

Virgin used to fly to Bali in the NG from???

Fantastic to hear of new routes all round!

[chookcooker]

Yes, truely a victorious emergence from the Ashes, went bankrupt, restructured and wrote off debt leaving suppliers millions out of pock, sacked a load of staff, shutdown part of the airline, paid themselves massive bonuses and started again from a debt free position….. truely remarkable.
yeah , exactly, so pretty much rising from the ashes.

[Sunfish]

The Virgin IPO will be hyped to the stratosphere by Bain and its minion like Red69. Howevr Bain has "Form" in these matters...

Their strategy is not only to recover their investment, with interest, but to sink their claws in very, very deeply into the future revenue stream from the company for years after the IPO.

They do this by creating a stack of liabilities and cost streams in the company before they sell it. The average investor misses these because they are buried in the fine print. SUre Virgin will make a lot of money, but the investors wont see any of it, Bain creams it off for years.

Typical ploys:

- a management agreement between Bain and various Virgin entitiies.

-- ditto for consulting agreements.

- Loading the company with debt and paying itself huge "management fees" before the IPO - sucking all the free cash out of the business.

- preferential long term leasing deals.

An example:

Even as Bain’s debt increased the company’s costs, store revenue fell (https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2006/03/27/story2.html), making those debt payments harder to pay. In 2002, Bain had the company take out more debt to help finance a dividend recapitalization (a fancy term for when a company borrows money, not to finance actual business operations, but to pay dividends…) that sucked $120 million out of the company and put $85 million in Bain’s pockets alone. Payouts like that are usually only a thing when a company performs really well, but Bain wanted its ROI NOW NOW NOW, even if that meant piling more debt onto the company. And since dividends were taxed at a lower rate than capital gains, it was an even easier way for the Bain boys to get rich(er) quick.

Shortly after Bain’s takeover, Napa County, CA sued KB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KB_Toys) for deceptive pricing and reselling returned toys as new, and in a separate class action (https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/news/state/2003/10/13/k-b-toys-chain-settles/50446708007/) alleging deceptive pricing. Both cases settled in 2003, with Big Lots picking up the tab — not Bain.

By 2004, Bain had bankrupted KB, resulted in the loss of thousands of retail and warehouse jobs (https://www.berkshireeagle.com/news/local/bain-capitals-role-in-kb-toys-demise-still-a-point-of-controversy/article_78f7c1aa-7834-599d-9d64-1b920578134d.html). Another private investment firm then took ownership (https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2005/05/16/daily7.html) of the company. KB’s online assets, including eToys.com, and inventory were sold to D.E. Shaw (https://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/kb-toys-sells-kbtoys-to-investors-who-are-resurrecting-the-etoys-brand/2717/), an investment firm that was buying up financially distressed toy retailers at the time.

In 2005, a group of creditors sued Bain (https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2005/02/21/daily56.html) and KB execs in Delaware, arguing that the 2002 dividend recap was done “when the economy and the company’s business was declining and had a ‘devastating impact’ on the Pittsfield-based chain of mall-based toy stores,” making the payout improper. Bain tried to get the court to declare that these creditors didn’t have standing to sue them for fraudulent conveyance in the matter, which would essentially block other creditors (https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/0313/088.html?sh=2358455d166b) from suing them for it as well.

Big Lots, KB’s previous owner, also sued Bain (https://tulsaworld.com/archives/court-dismisses-big-lots-lawsuit-over-kb-toys-deal/article_5b51dbcf-a561-517b-ac5d-292c1e960196.html) outside of the bankruptcy court, accusing Bain of fraud and shorting them $45 million still owed on the sale, but the case was dismissed for being improper outside of the bankruptcy proceedings.


https://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/snrdqu/more_on_how_bain_capitals_greed_and_fraud_is/

[Taggert]

The Virgin IPO will be hyped to the stratosphere by Bain and its minion like Red69. Howevr Bain has "Form" in these matters...

Their strategy is not only to recover their investment, with interest, but to sink their claws in very, very deeply into the future revenue stream from the company for years after the IPO.

They do this by creating a stack of liabilities and cost streams in the company before they sell it. The average investor misses these because they are buried in the fine print. SUre Virgin will make a lot of money, but the investors wont see any of it, Bain creams it off for years.

Typical ploys:

- a management agreement between Bain and various Virgin entitiies.

-- ditto for consulting agreements.

- Loading the company with debt and paying itself huge "management fees" before the IPO - sucking all the free cash out of the business.

- preferential long term leasing deals.

An example:



https://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/snrdqu/more_on_how_bain_capitals_greed_and_fraud_is/

Based on previous form you are probably correct, but don't you think potential investors etc may have some idea of their track record and look at the fine print a little more closely? Just saying

[Sunfish]

Taggert, should they look? One would hope so..

[PoppaJo]

YBCG WADD approx 2400nm, seasonal winds up to 40ish on the nose one way. Never driven a 737, no idea if it will do it. The 738 Max certainly will as SQ flies it to Cairns.

Virgin used to fly to Bali in the NG from???

Fantastic to hear of new routes all round!

Few Bali issues this week, appears East coast is stopping Darwin en route.

[Roj approved]

YBCG WADD approx 2400nm, seasonal winds up to 40ish on the nose one way. Never driven a 737, no idea if it will do it. The 738 Max certainly will as SQ flies it to Cairns.

Virgin used to fly to Bali in the NG from???

Fantastic to hear of new routes all round!

The issue is not the sector length, a 737 can fly that far. It is the performance limits in The Gold Coast. Due to the shortish runway, pax load will need to be capped to allow the fuel to be carried for the sector. There will be a point when it becomes unprofitable to operate that sector.

As an example, the A320 is limited to 160 pax on a OOL-PER sector which is about 1900nm, so to go another 500nm and still arrive with 3T of fuel, (which is very light on) you’ll have to reduce the payload by roughly 2.5 T for the extra 1 hours flight.

That equates to another 29 pax. So, how much will you have to charge each pax to make 130 seats cover the costs plus profit?

[DanV2]

Gold Coast Airport also regularly flies near full widebody loads (Scoot) and pre-pandemic regularly flew loaded JQ and D7 787/A330s with little/no restrictions on long haul flights to SIN/NRT/KUL.

[das Uber Soldat]

Gold Coast Airport also regularly flies near full widebody loads (Scoot) and pre-pandemic regularly flew loaded JQ and D7 787/A330s with little/no restrictions on long haul flights to SIN/NRT/KUL.
what relevance does this have to narrowbody performance?

[ShandywithSugar]

what relevance does this have to narrowbody performance?

Nothing. Plus when did you ever see someone bound for KL NRT SIN fly over the bight?

It will be heavily capped due to runway length. 150s is my calculation.

[t_cas]

It will be heavily capped due to runway length. 150s is my calculation.

The pessimistic analysis.

[puff]

Big difference to the 320 and the 737-800 especially on long sectors - 2 odd ton less fuel and 2 ton less MTOW. Sector to Perth is also E-W vs basically N-S - so far less effected by the headwinds you get to Perth. Long sectors is where the 737-800 beats the A320 hands down.

​​​​​​You can pull about 77-78 ton out of OOL up to 28 degrees depending on what runway, so only about a ton or penalty off MTOW.

[Goat Whisperer]

The 738 variant VA uses to Bali can take off at OOL at MTOW up to 79t (RW32) wet or dry 78t (RW14), with typical conditions nil wind.

OOL-DPS is doable.

[KRUSTY 34]

With the Virgin partnership with LINK on the CB-SY-CB Route going gangbusters, I wonder if VA will look wider afield for a renewed Regional network?

[Going Nowhere]

With the Virgin partnership with LINK on the CB-SY-CB Route going gangbusters, I wonder if VA will look wider afield for a renewed Regional network?

At the rate Link are acquiring Saab's, it seems highly likely.

[DanV2]

With the Virgin partnership with LINK on the CB-SY-CB Route going gangbusters, I wonder if VA will look wider afield for a renewed Regional network?

With VA also having a interline/lounge arrangement with FlyPelican, it wouldn't surprise me if VA uses FlyPelican for a proper codeshare/wetleases on thin NSW regional routes in the future at some point. Link and FlyPelican could cover the regional NSW flying for VA. Regional Qld on the other hand with the dwindling/drawing down of the Alliance contracts..

[wishiwasupthere]

Regional Qld on the other hand with the dwindling/drawing down of the Alliance contracts..

Link also have a presence in Brisbane which could prove useful to VA.

[Going Nowhere]

There'll be a gap in the market for VA if/when Alliance stop flying to Emerald, Moranbah, Gladstone, Rocky, Newcastle, Mt Isa on their behalf. Most of those ports can't take/won't sustain a 737-sized aircraft and Saab/J32 won't cut it either.

There could be an opportunity for Cobham to get into the East Coast with their Q400's if they can ramp up quick enough. They have a few more Q400's due before the end of the year as it is.

[davidclarke]

Airnorth will shortly commence flying for VA on the bne-drw route. Airnorth could be a good substitute for Alliance once QF take full ownership.

[DanV2]

Airnorth also has a wet-lease arrangement with Alliance on the 2 E190s they have, considering every now and again UYC and UYR (in white livery) sometimes operate Alliance FIFO services with a QQ flight number in Queensland.

IIRC the TL E190 services are crewed by QQ pilots, but with TL flight attendants.

[Foxxster]

Just heard the CEO is leaving.

[SHVC]

Coming back to QF group slot of positions going there after todays announcements.

[DanV2]

VA 2.0 has requested to the IASC to replace old partner EY's codeshares with codeshares with their new buddies QR.

Perhaps EY could join DL in forming a partnership with REX. Collecting Virgin 1.0's seconds as their new partners wouldn't be a bad pickup for REX.

[PoppaJo]

Etihad is down to 2 flights a day to Australia to only two cities. Pretty useless.

Qatar are now its own metal into 6 Australian ports, plus a Tasman crossing.

[90jj]

Any idea what the announcement on Friday is for?

[anonfly]

Any idea what the announcement on Friday is for?

3 rumours doing the rounds.

Virgin and Bonza become newly weds.

Widebody and more 700 aircraft to be announced.

Virgin is getting a rebrand.

Not sure it’s even announcement. Most likely it’s just a chance to sing Kumbaya.

“We had planned on making an announcement next week, but decided the timing was more appropriate to use this as an opportunity to acknowledge, celebrate and thank our wonderful team members…….. blah blah blah”

[Stationair8]

Jayne and Alan are going to merge Qantas and Virgin, to take it up to Rex on regional routes?

There will be a combined seniority list for both entities, everything will be outsourced to Swissport to run.

[Renton Field]

Apparently,and most likely, a slight rebrand to match Virgin Atlantic and America…red cowls and tails,white Virgin logo,coloured nose art chicky,no more purple.
Other unlikely crew room goss is wide bodies,dogs on board,diversity stuff,60 odd ex Southwest 700s on the way…blah blah.
Who knows?

[PoppaJo]

Found a leak, first 737 just painted up in Townsville. I’ve still got a lanyard if anyone needs one for the dinner party.

Bain Capital kicks off Virgin Australia rebranding exercise with new livery (http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKIRxrwA2Oe0JoJh4BBclO6Sa_6Y7mHuDRAg&usqp=CAU)

[Servo]

Found a leak, first 737 just painted up in Townsville. I’ve still got a lanyard if anyone needs one for the dinner party.

Bain Capital kicks off Virgin Australia rebranding exercise with new livery (http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKIRxrwA2Oe0JoJh4BBclO6Sa_6Y7mHuDRAg&usqp=CAU)

Hahahahahahahaha, love it PJ :)

[DanV2]

Other unlikely crew room goss is wide bodies,dogs on board,diversity stuff,60 odd ex Southwest 700s on the way…blah blah.
Who knows?

I've heard of the rumours of the 700s coming from Southwest before, but 60 looks way unlikely.

I'd say they are likely to be the ex-KLM all-Y 700s.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

In the Weekend Australian they (the paper) claimed the event was to launch VA's new "customer value proposition..."

[gamma69]

Any idea what the announcement on Friday is for?

Cancelled!!!

[belongamick]

Cancelled!!!
VA embracing the woke agenda with this event (this is the second time right?), cancel culture all the way :}

[90jj]

Apparently,and most likely, a slight rebrand to match Virgin Atlantic and America…red cowls and tails,white Virgin logo,coloured nose art chicky,no more purple.
Other unlikely crew room goss is wide bodies,dogs on board,diversity stuff,60 odd ex Southwest 700s on the way…blah blah.
Who knows?

Looks like you were right! New logo now live on the website & socials.

[PoppaJo]

You would have to be brain dead crazy to launch a ‘Customer Value Proposition’ at the moment. The two big players at this present time are in the dog house on customer front. I mean the Virgin boss was in the Royal box at Wimbledon while 20% of her passengers got cancelled.

Come back next year. I doubt September holidays will be much different. Gotta cycle through a whole heap of chaos, Feb onwards next year we might get some stability with people more worried about (trying to..) paying the house off vs touring the country.

[noclue]

Any guess when virgin will start hiring flight crew again? Are there many ex tiger crew still waiting for a return?

[gamma69]

Any guess when virgin will start hiring flight crew again? Are there many ex tiger crew still waiting for a return?

With a large intake in the last month of around 90, it bypassed a lot of senior ex Tiger folks. Along side this lots of EX VANS crew still haven't come across the pond . But with such a long due date of expiry its anyones guess how long until they recruit externally. If all decided to return it would be around 300 plus.
But if wide bodies came to town, could be sooner.

[noclue]

Thanks for that, sounds like a while then.

[Low Pass]

Alot of guys that have been bypassed are trying their hand at another gig e.g USA aviation. Some are being the stay at home dad or letting their partners pursue their careers.
Some wont come back but i get the feeling within the last 24 months of recall expiry (April 2026) alot will take any seat back at VA to secure their seniority. Tiger guys taking spots or VANZ captains taking a right seat for a short term until the left opens up

[Taggert]

Any guess when virgin will start hiring flight crew again? Are there many ex tiger crew still waiting for a return?
End of year potentially from reliable source

[Bumble_Pilot]

Does anyone have the new conditions under Bain?
I just wondering why so many people haven’t put a bid in to return?

[Red69]

Does anyone have the new conditions under Bain?
I just wondering why so many people haven’t put a bid in to return?

They’re terrible. 130k for an FO and 200k for a Captain. Throw in the lack of support staff and all the other issues the airline is facing, people are frustrated and leaving (or not prepared to rejoin). Additionally the conditions on offer overseas are luring a lot of crew away.

The conditions are insulting considering the struggle involved with getting to a major airline in Australia. You’re better off becoming a tradie, train/bus driver or working at the mines. You’ll earn just as much (without a 100k debt) and also have a lot more certainty in life. You also have a lower chance of losing your job in a black swan event unlike aviation.

[Stretch06]

Does anyone have the new conditions under Bain?
I just wondering why so many people haven’t put a bid in to return?

I know of a few people who didnt have bids in not thinking it would get so far down the list this quickly, or they had a bid but only for BNE base, and hence have been skipped in the process.

[Tommy Bahama]

Does anyone have the new conditions under Bain?
I just wondering why so many people haven’t put a bid in to return?

Have a look at "Front of house" on the TV some nights.....No doubt its worse behind the scenes where the TV cameras cant see. Virgin always was bordering on catastrophic even on a good day.

[Likeasomebody]

They’re terrible. 130k for an FO and 200k for a Captain. Throw in the lack of support staff and all the other issues the airline is facing, people are frustrated and leaving (or not prepared to rejoin). Additionally the conditions on offer overseas are luring a lot of crew away.

The conditions are insulting considering the struggle involved with getting to a major airline in Australia. You’re better off becoming a tradie, train/bus driver or working at the mines. You’ll earn just as much (without a 100k debt) and also have a lot more certainty in life. You also have a lower chance of losing your job in a black swan event unlike aviation.


Isn't that just the base salary?

​

Having been in said construction earning 100k plus for a year whilst trying to claw back into Aviation, I know which I would prefer.



​​

[Jack D. Ripper]

I don’t understand why Virgin people are so disparaging of their company. Not much more than a year ago it was looking like Ansett… most ex Ansett people I know would have given their all to get a white knight saviour.

Don’t mean to offend, but it almost seems like that is forgotten and people are actively working against the business.

Do people want to see it fall or feel like it can’t fail again?

[Red69]

People simply want to be treated fairly. There are now plenty of pilot jobs out there and people are voting with their feet. The employees have taken a big hit during COVID and unfortunately airline employees have taken massive cuts while most industries have had significant pay raises over the last 2 years. If the airline can't provide suitable conditions and pay market rates, people will keep leaving. There is no incentive to sit in the RHS for 15 years waiting for a command when that can be achieved elsewhere at a much faster rate. It's not about wanting VA to fail, it's about them trying to squeeze their staff while the exco bask in large bonuses.

[turbantime]

I don’t understand why Virgin people are so disparaging of their company. Not much more than a year ago it was looking like Ansett… most ex Ansett people I know would have given their all to get a white knight saviour.

Don’t mean to offend, but it almost seems like that is forgotten and people are actively working against the business.

Do people want to see it fall or feel like it can’t fail again?
It’s not people actively working against the business but rather people not going the extra mile anymore. Think extension denials, flying outside of reserve period, reducing rest periods, coming in on days off etc. Crew feel let down from all the cuts to terms and conditions, then throw in the general chaos out there and it’s no wonder people just don’t want to help out. The company has made it’s bed, it now needs to lie in it.

[43Inches]

The other thing is that Staff at most of the airlines are not scared for their jobs anymore. Too much scaremongering from management about what could happen, when in reality we all know the industry is booming. So a lot of feeling from staff that if they want to keep pushing the whole doom and gloom, fine, let it fail, someone else will buy the company and do better by everyone. The two way street has become so one way now that staff have given up giving back and just working the day and forgetting about any extra miles as it's not recognised by anyone, its the same for all airlines in Australia at the moment.

The baggage handlers claims sum it up, they feel overworked, underpaid and undervalued, and they know they don't have many other people wanting to do the job. Which is a problem across the board in aviation now, so many other jobs that are easier with less commute that pay similar or more with far less hassels, security, rules etc.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Could anyone shed some light on what a current roster is like. Days a week/overnights etc

[Goat Whisperer]

Could anyone shed some light on what a current roster is like. Days a week/overnights etc

Start by reading the two relevant EAs (2018 and 2021) but 12 days off in a 28 day roster, single days only possible with the pilot opting in. 13 days if the roster is quiet (below 65 credits)

Number of overnights is one thing that pilots have influence if not control over at the roster bidding stage. Pilots who desire day trips get them, pilots preferring longer trips probably get 2 hotel nights per week.

[belongamick]

Well less than 50% of those who 'could' have come back have chosen to do so. What does that tell you?

[Low Pass]

Shortly we will open expressions of interest for external applicants to join Virgin Australia as B737 First Officers.



The process for awarding First Officer positions will adhere to the following priority:




Unfrozen Inactive Pilots awarded in accordance with the terms of the Re-employment Policy;




Frozen Inactive Pilots will be awarded.



Note:




Pilots must update their bids to include positions that they are willing and able to accept. The next bid import will occur on Monday 5th September 2022 @ 0700 AEST.



The 2 week consideration period (as outlined in the Re-employment policy) will not be available. Pilots that are uncontactable or do not accept the awarded position within 24 hours will be bypassed.
Training courses may occur within 4 weeks of assignment.
Frozen Pilots that decline the offered position will have their administrative freeze reset.





Surplus positions will be offered to external applicants.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Externals have opened

[davidclarke]

Can anyone give a realistic time frame from external application to start date?

My guess is 12 months given the training backlog and inactive pilots bidding in the next bid import, but thought someone in the know might have more info……

[belongamick]

Two months for some. People aren't coming back, that's why they are putting out for externals. Talking to a mate who is coming back and was awarded recently, they are having lots of issues filling courses.

[Stretch06]

Can anyone give a realistic time frame from external application to start date?

My guess is 12 months given the training backlog and inactive pilots bidding in the next bid import, but thought someone in the know might have more info……

I am not 'in the know', however I would say less than 6mths given how many inactive pilots are turning down their bids

[TimmyTee]

They need pilots over there yesterday. If you got the nod from them, I’d imagine you’d be starting 4 weeks later

[kjvmw]

Would they look at people previously on the hold file or would that be well and truly forgotten about?

[CFD]

I am not in the know..... but if you press start application the following comes up- so personally I would restart the process just to be sure.

Existing applicants:If you have previously applied for a position with us, please use the same e-mail address as your previous application.
This will assist us in processing your application as quickly as possible. You can update your e-mail address upon starting your application.

[Jc31]

Can anyone working for virgin at the moment shed some insight into conditions, rosters, average take home pay, expected bases for new joins etc. TIA

[KRUSTY 34]

Can anyone working for virgin at the moment shed some insight into conditions, rosters, average take home pay, expected bases for new joins etc. TIA

Better than driving a Bus!

[Stretch06]

Can anyone working for virgin at the moment shed some insight into conditions, rosters, average take home pay, expected bases for new joins etc. TIA

Not working for them, but based on the 2021 EBA

EBA base salary ($175.5 / hr * 57.5MCG * 13RP) - $131k
28 day Roster, issued 7 days prior
Min 12 DDO
TR bond/freeze - 36months or $45k

Bases I would assume SYD/MEL/ADL, no inactive pilots recalled in July were awarded Brisbane.

[DanV2]

Virgin just announced an expanded partnership with Link Airways from the East Coast Capitals to regional ports in NSW, Qld and Vic.
I wouldn't be surprised if AirNorth is next for regional Qld from BNE (and SYD) through their E70s and leased E90s.

[Mr_App]

They are some fairly low minimums. I’m not sure who they are targeting, management always have one group in sight. I assume they are after Rex either seat, Skytrans, and so on. Get them before Jetstar does in the not too far future.

[Icarus2001]

Is there any jet airline or charter company NOT hiring pilots at present?

[Flyonthewall11]

200 pilots in NZ ready tomorrow if they reinstated the NZ bases I'm sure!

[snakeslugger]

200 pilots in NZ ready tomorrow if they reinstated the NZ bases I'm sure!

NZ bases… I think that boat has sailed, it’s all just a pipe dream now. Time to move on to bigger and better things…

[impossibleturn]

200 pilots in NZ ready tomorrow if they reinstated the NZ bases I'm sure!


200? I think most of us have moved on.

[chookcooker]

They only have 1 NZ destination

[bb_turn]

Really!? 200. With all due respect so many better options outside of aviation. Look into regional AU.
Cheaper housing. No caps, No A team egos, No nazi AU checkies, No airports, No packing bags, No more airport/airline food, more time with families. I would be really disappointed if there was 200 kiwis holding on to this deluded hope. Look outside the box FFS.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Over 50 taken on this months import today. The list hasn’t got that long to go now.

[belongamick]

Over 50 taken on this months import today. The list hasn’t got that long to go now.
Just over 50 awarded... but how many will take it up? Only half off the last big award accepted a position.

[ockett]

Is it just me, or are we glad that 500hrs ME PIC has been eradicated, down to only 200 😆

[ockett]

Also, do we ever see the cadetship returning

[Bumble_Pilot]

Just over 50 awarded... but how many will take it up? Only half off the last big award accepted a position.
I believe a high number will take this import, last import was from old bids as no one thought they would be back that quickly.
September is rumored to still be big.

[Bumble_Pilot]

How many are being put through each course? I imagine still quite a wait for a start date.

awards the came out last week, getting September and October start dates.

[Jetdream]

Any idea what the selection process will look like for the 737 gig? Similar to the past?

[HappyBandit]

Any idea how quickly HR are looking at applications and contacting ppl?

Also, I live on the GC and heard a rumour from the plane watchers that Virgin could be starting a base here in the near future?

[Zinfandel]

Any idea how quickly HR are looking at applications and contacting ppl?

Also, I live on the GC and heard a rumour from the plane watchers that Virgin could be starting a base here in the near future?

GC base has been on the cards over 10 years, so don’t hold your breath. Lots of SYD and MEL commuters ahead of any new joiners for a GC base if it ever happens.

[wishiwasupthere]

idea how quickly HR are looking at applications and contacting ppl?

They haven’t even got through the whole inactive pilot list yet.

[Caedus]

Application got updated to "Application Talent Pooled" today :p

[Goat Whisperer]

Also, do we ever see the cadetship returning

Yep. the same market forces that drove old VA to start the cadetship are there again.

[extralite]

Had 4 domestic Virgin flights last week on an around the country work jaunt.. If they keep doing what they are doing they are going to win market share easily.. Lots of helpers at the check in machines, everyone friendly, lots of people getting trained also. Everything left on time, no cancellations, full flights. Lets just hope Virgin learn from the Qantas debacle and don't screw over these new employees, their best asset.

[dr dre]

Had 4 domestic Virgin flights last week on an around the country work jaunt.. If they keep doing what they are doing they are going to win market share easily.. Lots of helpers at the check in machines, everyone friendly, lots of people getting trained also. Everything left on time, no cancellations, full flights. Lets just hope Virgin learn from the Qantas debacle and don't screw over these new employees, their best asset.

The BITRE data (https://www.bitre.gov.au/statistics/aviation/otphome) doesn’t support this being widespread.

For the latest month available July OTP VA group was 50.9%, QF group 52.3%. Cancellation rate VA 7.8% vs QF 5.6%.

Whilst I don’t doubt your 4 individual flights were on time VA has suffered as a big a shortfall as QF, and I doubt they miraculously improved back to 85%+ OTP in a month.

[extralite]

Yes maybe true. However staff support was there plus lots being trained. And they were friendly. When I last flew with Qantas there were far too few staff on the ground assisting...often none, and those who were there were surly. Understandably no doubt. So at least they seem to be trying at virgin to make the customer experience better. Update...first flight booked with jetsrar recently..jq15 to Cairns tomorrow as they were the only option..frigging cancelled today. Now have to cancel all bookings up there. Qantas jetstar continue to amaze how bad they are now.

[startno1]

Anyone know how recruitment is going?
Still sorting applications or have they started to contact people?

[Swept-Wing]

Anyone know how recruitment is going?
Still sorting applications or have they started to contact people?

they are contacting people with interview dates.
Also paying for flights and accomodation for anyone not residing in Brisbane.

[KRUSTY 34]

they are contacting people with interview dates.
Also paying for flights and accomodation for anyone not residing in Brisbane.

Wow!

Times have certainly changed.

[TimmyTee]

Who would have thought an airline could treat applicants with a hint of respect. Hopefully it starts a trend..

[startno1]

Cheers. Any word on how many they are looking for?

[On Guard]

Cheers. Any word on how many they are looking for?

I would think hundreds.

[Jimsaviation]

For someone joining the ranks today, what kind of movement would be expected, such as bases, time to command etc.? Before the keyboard warriors get their knickers in a knot, it's just a question ok. I thought it would be interesting if anyone has any thoughts, given the number of pilots that are not returning and, I assume, some increased attrition.

[belongamick]

Bases as an FO? Very quick for everywhere but Brisbane, and for Brisbane a couple of years. Commands? I don't think anyone is going to be able to put a reasonable number on it at this stage other than to say, quite a while. There are too many factors to wash out including fleet changes, inactive pilot return, changes at VARA and general pilot retention. Quickest base for a command would probably be Adelaide, but with those above factors it's pretty hard to tell.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Well todays bid import sucked….

only 11 people (pretty senior as well) and the email states no more ground schools planned.

externals might be a while away after all!

[belongamick]

Why? Inactives have priority to come back over externals. If you're on the inactive list then you've already worked there, and have first hand experience on how long it takes to go from job ad to window seat when you first start. All the inactive guys that I know who have come back describe a much easier and faster process.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Problem is, the company said they’re hiring external etc and busy.
Todays import were pretty senior people. Guys and gals on the inactive list down lower thought they would be back shortly (and not taking jobs elsewhere due to that) and today they’ve said that courses are now full and no more planned.

with external interviews starting in a fortnight, are they telling these people that it could be a very long time before start dates?

[Theflyingsosijman]

Yeah it’s all taken a bit of a unexpected turn. Still plenty on the inactive list to go back so you wouldn’t expect any external starts before this time next year, especially with no more inactive course starts planned for the year. December and January are dead months for obvious holiday reason so hopeful expectations are they start up the monthly import of inactive early next year, or, some other plans they’re keeping close to the chest (they were suspiciously low Second Officer like minimum requirements for direct entry FO.. for australia anyway)

Definitely a piece of information missing as external recruitment at the moment does not add up

[Brakerider]

Problem is, the company said they’re hiring external etc and busy.
Todays import were pretty senior people. Guys and gals on the inactive list down lower thought they would be back shortly (and not taking jobs elsewhere due to that) and today they’ve said that courses are now full and no more planned.

with external interviews starting in a fortnight, are they telling these people and it could be a very long time before start dates?

its probably a smart move - compared to QF who delayed and postponed hiring until they needed people yesterday.

[MonsterC01]

The reason the company has started to accept external applications is because the last bid import before this one went so low on the list. The last inactive pilot on that import was only about 70-80 from the bottom of the list. The reason for this was because they were primarily filling ADL and PER FO slots.

The most resent import was for SYD ans MEL FO slots, and as a result they were filled by inactive pilots much higher on the list. This highlights the fact that the vast majority of inactive pilots on the list probably only have bids in for east coast bases.

Don’t be surprised if some external applicants get picked up for courses before we have exhausted the inactive pilot list. Especially if they are willing to accept any base in the network.

[startno1]

Did VA get the interest they were looking for?
Not much talk about it all.

Is it likely to be a long and slow process?

[Mr_App]

Still at least 80-100 redundant pilots that haven’t even received an offer to return. And with the ‘No further intakes planned’ after the last bid import, I wouldn’t be holding your breath.
I assume they are all ATR/CFO and later Tiger pilots?

[mates rates]

Yes they are about 100 from the bottom, it includes VANZ F/O’s they have an excess of Captains but are very short of F/O’s.There is a training bottle neck until 2023.

[startno1]

Thanks for the info.
Not expecting to jump anyone on the list to return that’s for sure.
Just wondering if they will likely build a healthy hold file of FO’s for when the list is exhausted.
Time will tell.

[Jimsaviation]

The info I have is that it all depends on the bidding behaviour of the inactive pilots. Just because the latest intake was 100 or so from the bottom of the list doesn't mean much. At this stage, there are still probably 500 inactive pilots who aren't interested in returning. That may or may not change. Theoretically, if they all changed their mind and wanted to return, you could wait until 2026 before external recruitment.

At the earliest, I wouldn't expect external recruitment until the end of 2023.

[Hothighhungover]

Inactive pilots still have 4 years before making a decision on returning or not. Most of the ones I know are off having other adventures whilst keeping the option of returning to virgin in their back pockets. A lot can happen in four years.

[Goat Whisperer]

A lot of talk within the VA training department about the "no further courses planned" line. Widely agreed to be bulldust, and a tactic to goad inactive pilots into bidding.

[gamma69]

I would think the VARA pilots integration and their involvement in the VA network flying will also slow down any further recruitment for the short term. But training will take over a year.

[TimmyTee]

A friend said that his company planned 50 (from memory) external FOs prior to mid next year

[Red69]

While there may still be 100+ left on the inactive list, I think you’ll find attrition will continue to increase as people return to get current then leave. Most people that have returned are commuting and the company aren’t assisting these commuters in anyway. The company’s aren’t providing positions in bases people want (amongst other things such as $$), so many are voting with their feet and leaving. I think you’ll find courses will continue next year and externals may get a shot mid next year depending on how the training pipeline looks.

[SHVC]

There is a lot of pilots where I am at heading over seas, Atlas in particular.

[Red69]

There is a lot of pilots where I am at heading over seas, Atlas in particular.

There are jobs galore out there. VA are also losing many to the likes of atlas and national. Many figure what’s the point of commuting and earning peanuts when they could fly to more interesting places in different equipment earning multiples of what they would at VA with a better lifestyle. VA will continue to hemorrhage pilots until they sort out the lifestyle and pay issues.

[Low Pass]

All the last few comments are very very true. I am halfway on the list at VA and will not return for a FO position at a job that was boring me in the first place.
A lot of us (me included) are off overseas "trying before we are buying". Why burn the VA recall so early?. We really are in a very unique position to "have a go at something"...worst case scramble back to the ex wife and settle down..Again lol

Hopefully it works for those that want a new beginning or those want a burn on a new machine. Often it is too hard leaving a seniority list and take a punt

[Red69]

The recall opportunity really is something unique for those who got let go during circus. What is amazing is the number of crew who are resigning on their own terms (therefor being removed from the seniority list permanently) to find greener pastures.

Pilots have a lot of opportunities now, so if an employer isn’t meeting the market, people aren’t afraid to move on. Better pay and conditions are available at many employers. Also, it can’t be fun being a training or check captain right now. They must be approaching burnout. Shortly they’ll be training relatively inexperienced pilots too which will only add to the training costs/burden.

[No Idea Either]

Heard a vicious rumour that VA were looking to cancel the ‘deed’ as they need everyone back. Argument being that the company is being financially damaged because of slow return of experienced people and that the deed is not really relevant anymore as it was designed to return everyone anyway and they’re needed now. Anyone heard anything a bit more solid?????

[belongamick]

Heard a vicious rumour that VA were looking to cancel the ‘deed’ as they need everyone back. Argument being that the company is being financially damaged because of slow return of experienced people and that the deed is not really relevant anymore as it was designed to return everyone anyway and they’re needed now. Anyone heard anything a bit more solid?????

Seems like a pointless idea given that not all of the inactives have even been offered positions yet, the company has already started building a hold file of externals, and the training pipeline is the bottleneck rather than the supply of candidates.

Why alienate a remaining source of qualified, experienced and previously trusted pilots for no benefit.

[Red69]

The agreement for pilots to return was enshrined in a deed by the AFAP and company. If that agreement falls apart, it’s only going to alienate and further anger previous experienced crew who intended to return at some point. Both parties will have a lot of explaining to do if it the deed is deemed no longer valid.

[Break Right]

The return of redundant Pilots is in the eba, all crew voted for this process. It’s not going anywhere.

[PoppaJo]

Heard a vicious rumour that VA were looking to cancel the ‘deed’ as they need everyone back. Argument being that the company is being financially damaged because of slow return of experienced people and that the deed is not really relevant anymore as it was designed to return everyone anyway and they’re needed now. Anyone heard anything a bit more solid?????
Right. So these crew are meant to shed a tear as the business is financially damaged? Really? I mean the circus has been financially damaged for the last 20 years. That attitude is even more reason to stay away.

I know three VA pilots that have applied for the Jetstar ad. Bit dumb on VAs part not investing in these good people and for once, perhaps just giving them what they are after?

[TimmyTee]

The return of redundant Pilots is in the eba, all crew voted for this process. It’s not going anywhere.

Is the 7 years time limit to return in your EBA?

[Break Right]

EBA states 5 years. It’s the only thing you can rely on.

[Red69]

As the rate of resignations start accelerating at VA it’s clear that staff aren’t happy and the company aren’t willing to address the underlying problem. A sound piece of advice is to use VA as a stepping stone to get current or get a new rating and move on to greener pastures (as many are doing).

Career progression is limited and with a list of inactive pilots, new joiners won’t have any idea of their true seniority or future progression opportunities until 2026. It’s a stark picture compared to other operators where progression and conditions are accelerating in the right direction.

[DanV2]

VA has been given till end of March 2023 to utilise their HND authority or to lose it.

My money is on VA letting that authority lapse. Wet-leases (by another carrier on behalf of VA) on the HND route are not permitted under the IASC determination.

Although VA could operate BNE-GUM-HND on a 738 (with no fifth freedom allowed on the GUM-HND-GUM legs), chances of that happening would be 0% to none.

[Red69]

VA has been given till end of March 2023 to utilise their HND authority or to lose it.

My money is on VA letting that authority lapse. Wet-leases (by another carrier on behalf of VA) on the HND route are not permitted under the IASC determination.

Although VA could operate BNE-GUM-HND on a 738 (with no fifth freedom allowed on the GUM-HND-GUM legs), chances of that happening would be 0% to none.

If the max 8’s appear by March, they will be able to do CNS-HND fairly comfortably (although there may be some payload restrictions). It will be a long slog on a narrow body though.

[ebt]

Technically, there is nothing barring a wet-lease operation in the IASC Determination. It cannot be used to jointly operate with another carrier, with the exception of the codeshare agreement with ANA, and anything else with approval from the Commission. It may be pushing it uphill to do so, but with the right arguments, anything is possible.

What I found interesting is that it is in the public record that Virgin provided the Commission in June with a confidential "firm commercial" plan to operate HND from Northern Summer 23 in order to preserve their slot allocation. Seems more likely to be a widebody wet-lease than a Max into FNQ, but stranger things have happened.

[an.other]

Some dope on another board started the rumour that ACMI isn't allowed. It is allowed and has plenty of precedent in exceptional circumstances, which these surely count as. I gather there are a host of good quality airlines with capacity on the back of reduced demand between Europe and Asia due to Ukraine.

[Jetdream]

Has anyone actually progressed to the hold file from the EOI?

[HappyBandit]

JetDream are you meaning past/current employees or externals? If the former, I know of several that are on courses at the moment. Externals-I have not heard a thing. I think the company is still going through the current/past employee list. Not sure why they put out an EOI in that case.

[Jetdream]

Thanks for the info HB.
I was referring to the external EOI but understand they still have a lot of guys/girls to return.

[grrowler]

I know of one external who was offered interview recently

[AerialPerspective]

Some dope on another board started the rumour that ACMI isn't allowed. It is allowed and has plenty of precedent in exceptional circumstances, which these surely count as. I gather there are a host of good quality airlines with capacity on the back of reduced demand between Europe and Asia due to Ukraine.

You're correct, multiple precedents, QF wet leasing aeroplanes back in the 80s/90s, AN wet-leasing 747s from SQ to cover maintenance of their leased and self-operated 747-412s (and the -312s before them).

What isn't allowed from what I understood is what VA did with TT, worse yet, they were warned and warned and eventually got the rights cancelled (although I think that was instigated by the Indonesian side).

[bb_turn]

Honesty I would rather cut of my left nut and right ring finger than to work for these clowns again. Checking department think they are the Ducks Nuts, Accountains just flat out lie, Managment are toxic as F. Do youself a favour look else where or re think career options. Lifes is very short and VA is as Toxic. IMO.

[grrowler]

Checking department think they are the Ducks Nuts, Accountains just flat out lie, Managment are toxic as F.
You found an operator where this doesn’t apply?

[AerialPerspective]

You found an operator where this doesn’t apply?

The toxic culture at VA existed LONG before the current management took over post-Administration.

[grrowler]

That wasn’t my question though

[Sunfish]

...................aaaaand the Age suggests an IPO is coming up! Why am I not surprised?

In my opinion, this is one to sit out...................

"Revenue Bonanza" oh my giddy aunt.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/virgin-ipo-closer-to-liftoff-as-revenue-recovery-picks-up-speed-20221020-p5brfx.html

[airdualbleedfault]

...................aaaaand the Age suggests an IPO is coming up! Why am I not surprised?

In my opinion, this is one to sit out...................

"Revenue Bonanza" oh my giddy aunt.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/virgin-ipo-closer-to-liftoff-as-revenue-recovery-picks-up-speed-20221020-p5brfx.html
Yes I think there will be more than a handful that remember the "fantastic" investment VA mark 1 shares were :}

[Mr_App]

Hanger parties? WTF. (btw no pilots allowed?)

[PoppaJo]

CNS crew base now coming I assume?

[No Idea Either]

That’s news to me Poppajo. What have you heard????????

[markis10]

That’s news to me Poppajo. What have you heard????????

Max to HND daily from mid next year

[slice]

CNS - HND 7:45 block and HND - CNS 7:30 (redeye) in a Max. My arse hurts just thinking about it.

[hotnhigh]

Snow or Cyclones? Wait, let me guess, 737 second officers.
Different, unusual....

[No Idea Either]

Jeeze

you guys certainly have some decent inside ‘agents’………..
no need for 737 SO’s, run out of fuel before they are needed. Why would anyone pax from where-ever to CNS and then on to HND on a narrow body, apart from a $50 fare to entice people who dont know any better.

[galdian]

I'd assume primarily to retain possession of the landing rights, an "asset" no doubt in any future flogging off of VA to an adoring and financially astute public.

[LostWanderer]

CNS - HND 7:45 block and HND - CNS 7:30 (redeye) in a Max. My arse hurts just thinking about it.

Wonder how JQ/QF will respond. If I were a gambler I would bet this doesn't last long.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

I'd assume primarily to retain possession of the landing rights, an "asset" no doubt in any future flogging off of VA to an adoring and financially astute public.
ding ding ding - we have a winner....

Anyone crazy enough to book onto that flight is a bonus - just fill it with fuel and freight....

[PoppaJo]

They won’t have issues filling seats. You’re looking at 2-3k over the next few months and that is via Manila, Hong Kong or Taipei. My son wanted to go and it was cheaper to fly United via Los Angeles. Qantas are after $5-6k in the next few months for economy.

[DanV2]

Wonder how JQ/QF will respond. If I were a gambler I would bet this doesn't last long.

VA's CNS-HND flight is 'proudly' supported by the Queensland Government's Attracting Aviation Investment Fund (AAIF) in partnership with Cairns Airport. Same subsidy arrangments as UA's BNE-SFO and QF's BNE-HND flight to name two examples.

They'll last as long as their Queensland Government AAIF contract dictates. Whether VA/NH operates beyond that contract is unknown.

[puff]

CNS-HND won't even be in the top 5 longest Max flights in the world when it starts.

[turbantime]

CNS-HND won't even be in the top 5 longest Max flights in the world when it starts.
Fourth longest according to this site:
https://simpleflying.com/virgin-australia-4th-longest-boeing-737-max-route-tokyo-haneda/

[snakeslugger]

Good luck but I think that length of time in a 737 would be hideous. Pains me to say it, but I’d go Jetstar on that trip length.

[Lookleft]

Pains me to say it, but I’d go Jetstar on that trip length.

Careful what you wish for. Jetstar will be doing that in an A321 soon enough. If it wasn't for Covid they would already be doing it.

[Colonel_Klink]

Careful what you wish for. Jetstar will be doing that in an A321 soon enough. If it wasn't for Covid they would already be doing it.

Yup - with the Airbus NEOs and Boeing Max aircraft, 6-8 hour flights in narrow body aircraft will become more and more common 😔

[PoppaJo]

You think the MAX is bad wait until the Star drops the NEO on the run next year. 28' Pitch, 235 bodies, 8 hours...ohhhh and the rock hard Recaro seats with no headrest. TORTURE. Ohhhhhh but hold on its got a fancy USB port and mood lighting!