Moskva down

[Wokkafans]

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1514311737239031813?s=20&t=-0BPPL1BGrXLjXSCVr6c-Q

[NutLoose]

A confirmation re the hitting of the Moskva, but again it’s from a Ukrainian source so until verified I remain sceptical, after all we were told about the massive helicopter destruction that we never saw.

https://twitter.com/UKikaski/status/1514331200449560587

She was incidentally filmed off Sevastapol on the 10th, I saw it the other day.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1513178405864357895

[MAINJAFAD]

A confirmation re the hitting of the Moskva, but again it’s from a Ukrainian source so until verified I remain sceptical, after all we were told about the massive helicopter destruction that we never saw.

https://twitter.com/UKikaski/status/1514331200449560587

She was incidentally filmed off Sevastapol on the 10th, I saw it the other day.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1513178405864357895

Ship badly damaged and abandoned due to ammo accident according to Russian MOD. Mr Iceman says........

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1514379537903235074

[rattman]

A confirmation re the hitting of the Moskva, but again it’s from a Ukrainian source so until verified I remain sceptical, after all we were told about the massive helicopter destruction that we never saw.



RT are confirming as well
https://www.rt.com/russia/553838-russia-cruiser-blast-black-sea/

[NutLoose]

Reports now she has sunk morse signals reporting her sinking have stopped and several rescue ships in the area.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1514415155345596420?cxt=HHwWiIC9jeyjpIQqAAAA

[jolihokistix]

I found rattman's RT link above informative in the sense that to a certain degree they allow opposing views there, even from rabid anti-Russian posters! This tells me that they are making an effort to appear unbiased, which can also be said conversely of the BBC, where the bias is there but hidden.

(RT used to be a regular source of alternative information, but I stopped watching it many years ago in the UK when the pervasive green began to feel like kryptonite, eating at my bones.)

[SASless]

Nutty,

That must have been some "ammunition fire".....definitely not small arms stuff for sure.

Missile Reloads gone bad somehow....maybe?

Or...just one Missile arriving courtesy of the Ukraine Military perhaps.

[tdracer]

Nutty,

That must have been some "ammunition fire".....definitely not small arms stuff for sure.

Missile Reloads gone bad somehow....maybe?

Or...just one Missile arriving courtesy of the Ukraine Military perhaps.
Or more likely, a missile hit set off an ammo magazine. So they wouldn't be lying, just not telling all the story. Our press is rather expert at that...

[MAINJAFAD]

Or more likely, a missile hit set off an ammo magazine. So they wouldn't be lying, just not telling all the story. Our press is rather expert at that...

If like most normal people you're not into Stamp collecting, you would not be aware that the Ukrainian Post office issued a new Stamp yesterday and yes the ship on the stamp is the Flagship of the Black Sea Fleet!!!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/865x452/ukraine_russian_warship_stamp_f47a57148774e86afa8cfbbb3e889f ef9af90da6.png

[B Fraser]

Post 4285 further up this page provided by Timmy gives a particularly effective analysis - especially of the reality the Ukranian military are having to face and succeed in versus Putin's problems.

Rob

And now that the Moskva is either sunk or a smoking hulk, one of the inner circle must realise that Putin has nowhere to turn. The nuclear chain of command will have enough insight to realise what has happened and that there is no material risk to the homeland from the West. No sane individual will push the button. Is there someone brave enough to kill Putin, even if they too lose their life in the process ?

[Asturias56]

And now that the Moskva is either sunk or a smoking hulk, one of the inner circle must realise that Putin has nowhere to turn. The nuclear chain of command will have enough insight to realise what has happened and that there is no material risk to the homeland from the West. No sane individual will push the button. Is there someone brave enough to kill Putin, even if they too lose their life in the process ?

More likely a "Sheffield" moment - when a lot of people outside the military realise they haven't embarked on a walk in the park but that serious damage is going to be done. The question is do you stop or decide to slug it out

[BANANASBANANAS]

More likely a "Sheffield" moment - when a lot of people outside the military realise they haven't embarked on a walk in the park but that serious damage is going to be done. The question is do you stop or decide to slug it out

I think the difference is the open government reporting to the country of the Thatcher government in 1982 re the loss of Sheffield versus the Russian population slowly beginning to realise (maybe, hopefully) that Putin has been misleading them about what is actually going on in Ukraine., that, as you rightly say, it isn't a walk in the park, that the body count likely just went up by over 500 crew and that Putin has taken Russia into an unjust war that he can't possibly win.

[[email protected]]

I said many posts ago that the only way out to save face for Russia is for Putin's illness to become obviously worse so he can be removed and then blamed for poor decisions due to ill-health. The ultimate scapegoat.

That allows for full withdrawal and a negotiated settlement, probably returning Crimea to Ukraine control.

[Geriaviator]

At first I assumed the missile successfully fired on the Moskva was the Harpoon which Ukraine had asked for from Britain. I had not heard of the Neptune until I found this (https://www.military-today.com/missiles/neptun.htm) . Ukraine is fighting Europe's battle but perhaps she should ask Comrade Kim for some of his ample weaponry as well?

[pasta]

I think the difference is the open government reporting to the country of the Thatcher government in 1982 re the loss of Sheffield versus the Russian population slowly beginning to realise (maybe, hopefully) that Putin has been misleading them about what is actually going on in Ukraine., that, as you rightly say, it isn't a walk in the park, that the body count likely just went up by over 500 crew and that Putin has taken Russia into an unjust war that he can't possibly win.
I'm not convinced. If the Kremlin has managed to persuade many of the Russian people that they're fighting a just and necessary war, wouldn't the losses just be portrayed as evil Ukranian Nazis slaying noble Russian warriors, further justifying the need to liberate Ukraine?

[dead_pan]

Weirdly enough, a few days back on Twitter I speculated about an attack on a Russian capital ship along the lines that the Ukrainians reportedly executed i.e. busy up their air picture with a threatening air asset, then sneak in an ASM or two while they were distracted.

Apparently the weather was also a factor - a storm which covered both the Ukrainian's preparation on the shore, and chopped up the sea making detection of a sea skimming weapon more difficult.

All in all a superb attack.

[dead_pan]

FWIW a USAF KC135 has been loitering over the extreme east of Romania for the past hour or two, I'm guessing supporting whatever is trying to take a pic of the Moskva or the smoking patch of ocean where it sank.

[Beamr]

This will have an effect if the Ukrainians are provided with suitable weaponry to make the strikes.
Nevertheless, as the Ukrainians have apparently got their Neptuns working, this may well mean farewell to the Russian Black Sea fleet in the near future.

https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1514426990434127873

[rattman]

FWIW a USAF KC135 has been loitering over the extreme east of Romania for the past hour or two, I'm guessing supporting whatever is trying to take a pic of the Moskva or the smoking patch of ocean where it sank.
was also a nato E3 same place around the time of the strike, theoretically could have had range to supply targetting data, but if they baited it with a TB2 nato could keep its hands clean

The latest rumors coming from the russian side is that moskva's systems were jammed by F-18G's but still managed to intercept 4 or the 6 neptunes incoming. Personally think its BS because it would be provocative from the US and NATO to do that. The other slightly related rumor is that a C-40 clipper landed in odessa a few days ago under heavy electronic interference (F-18G's ?). It unloaded penguin mk2's then took off

[Ninthace]

What range would Russian ships have to close to in order to present a credible threat to land forces in support of an amphibious assault?

[dead_pan]

was also a nato E3 same place around the time of the strike, theoretically could have had range to supply targetting data, but if they baited it with a TB2 nato could keep its hands clean

The latest rumors coming from the russian side is that moskva's systems were jammed by F-18G's but still managed to intercept 4 or the 6 neptunes incoming. Personally think its BS because it would be provocative from the US and NATO to do that. The other slightly related rumor is that a C-40 clipper landed in odessa a few days ago under heavy electronic interference (F-18G's ?). It unloaded penguin mk2's then took off

Intriguing - the spotterverse has been alive with chatter about the presence of various NATO aircraft (Rivet Joint etc) over eastern Romania for the past few days. Coincidence?

My assumption was that they were trying to get a handle on Russia's activities around Kherson and Mikoleiv

[dead_pan]

What range would Russian ships have to close to in order to present a credible threat to land forces in support of an amphibious assault?

I'm guessing naval gunfire/rocketry range so something 20km or less?

The aforementioned KC135 has just come off station and is heading back NW. Hopefully whatever recon asset it was supporting is heading back home too with a 1 hour order for SuperSnaps...

[peter we]

was also a nato E3 same place around the time of the strike, theoretically could have had range to supply targetting data, but if they baited it with a TB2 nato could keep its hands clean

The latest rumors coming from the russian side is that moskva's systems were jammed by F-18G's but still managed to intercept 4 or the 6 neptunes incoming. Personally think its BS because it would be provocative from the US and NATO to do that. f
Stamdard Russian BS, amazing Russian weapons impersonating a smoldering wreck.

Another victory, huzzah.

[ORAC]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x446/image_f66308ec34b2afc2f6caeaa62a34e6ba7d0ae6fe.jpeg

[Usertim]

I don't know if this map is trustworthy https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/14-april-russian-ministry-of-defense-says-fire-at-cruiser but seems the ship was a long way from home and the wrong side of Odesa really.
/sarc on
Anyway it seems the Russians did a great job evacuating the 500 crew completely in 2 meter seas @ night in a short time, and already getting some tug ( I guess from sevastopol 170 miles away) and taking on tow a smouldering hulk perhaps still very dangerous
/sarc off

[Hot 'n' High]

Intriguing - the spotterverse has been alive with chatter about the presence of various NATO aircraft (Rivet Joint etc) over eastern Romania for the past few days. Coincidence?

My assumption was that they were trying to get a handle on Russia's activities around Kherson and Mikoleiv

Even before this all kicked off the RJs, CSs and KCs etc were out there daily. They fly over us outbound so hear/see them all the time, 7 days a week. And, before anyone shouts "OPSEC" at me, FR24 clearly shows many of them (clearly not all by a long way) up from various bases - so NATO clearly wants some of them to be seen - and where they come from - to send that message out too! ;) Black Sea, Romania, Poland, Lithuania, the Baltic..... and from all over Europe.... The E-3s will be having a full-time job just keeping tabs of all that friendly activity. But I'm sure the E-3s have other "interests" too. :ok:

OK, I'll get my anorak off........ :p

PS. Talk of the devil, just heard the next KC-10 off on its next trip. Again, on FR24. Anorak really off now! Byeeee! H 'n' H

[dead_pan]

Even before this all kicked off the RJs, CSs and KCs etc were out there daily. They fly over us outbound so hear/see them all the time, 7 days a week. And, before anyone shouts "OPSEC" at me, FR24 clearly shows many of them (clearly not all by a long way) up from various bases - so NATO clearly wants some of them to be seen - and where they come from - to send that message out too! ;) Black Sea, Romania, Poland, Lithuania, the Baltic..... and from all over Europe.... The E-3s will be having a full-time job just keeping tabs of all that friendly activity. But I'm sure the E-3s have other "interests" too. :ok:


It was more the concentration of effort in this particular area which piqued people's interest.

[ORAC]

Latest reports from Turkish news are that Moskva sent out an SOS at 0105.

At 0114 she rolled on her side and at 0145 lost all electric power.

At 0200 a Turkish ship lay alongside and started evacuating sailors from the hill and the water, rescuing a total of 54 men.

At 0300 she is reported to have sunk. Rescue operations continue.

Total reported number of crew is 510.

[Hot 'n' High]

It was more the concentration of effort in this particular area which piqued people's interest.

Ah, it's always looked busy over there when I've looked. Clearly, my anorak is a cheap, poor quality one!!!! I must upgrade it to a "Full Geek Mode" one! I stand re-educated re your original post. :ok::ok::ok: Cheers, H 'n' H

[ORAC]

Conditions for SAR are poor.

https://twitter.com/intelcrab/status/1514426070933585920?s=21&t=hDOn94tO1ZrHTLQOdbSIyg

[BANANASBANANAS]

I'm not convinced. If the Kremlin has managed to persuade many of the Russian people that they're fighting a just and necessary war, wouldn't the losses just be portrayed as evil Ukranian Nazis slaying noble Russian warriors, further justifying the need to liberate Ukraine?
It probably would if Putin had admitted that the loss of the ship was due to attack by Ukraine Forces but the party line seems to be that an on board fire triggered an amunition explosion. So Putin would first have to admit to the Russian people that he lied, or at the very least, his information was unreliable.

[Recc]

It probably would if Putin had admitted that the loss of the ship was due to attack by Ukraine Forces but the party line seems to be that an on board fire triggered an amunition explosion. So Putin would first have to admit to the Russian people that he lied, or at the very least, his information was unreliable.

An onboard fire and ammunition detonation is not incompatible with a missile hit.

[dead_pan]

Latest reports from Turkish news are that Moskva sent out an SOS at 0105.

At 0114 she rolled on her side and at 0145 lost all electric power.

At 0200 a Turkish ship lay alongside and started evacuating sailors from the hill and the water, rescuing a total of 54 men.

At 0300 she is reported to have sunk. Rescue operations continue.

Total reported number of crew is 510.

Pretty grim stuff. Could be the biggest mass casualty event of the conflict to date.

[Ninthace]

Latest reports from Turkish news are that Moskva sent out an SOS at 0105.

At 0114 she rolled on her side and at 0145 lost all electric power.

At 0200 a Turkish ship lay alongside and started evacuating sailors from the hill and the water, rescuing a total of 54 men.

At 0300 she is reported to have sunk. Rescue operations continue.

Total reported number of crew is 510.

The Russian MOD claims the fires are out the Moskva is under tow, Perhaps she will sink under tow? Any pictures from the Turks to corroborate?

Edit to add: the only Turkish source i could find was on reddit. The video had been with been deleted amid claims of fakery. What is your source ORAC?

[Tartiflette Fan]

It o Putin would first have to admit to the Russian people that he lied, or at the very least, his information was unreliable.

Once again this imputes that the Russians believe everything they are told which is, imo, far from the truth. The older generations know that lies of the black is white type were the norm pre 1990, and the younger people will obviously have noticed the differences between what the state says and what they are reading/hearing from the Web. If it is publicised that the Moskwa has been lost/badly damaged off Odessa, I don't think many will be sucked in by the "fire on board" story as if it had nothing to do with the "special operation". If there have been large numbers of casualties, then the official story of " all crew evacuated " will unravel pdq because many of the crew's families will live in the home port area and there will be a concentrated upswell of questioning/outcry/funerals.

[uxb99]

Once again this imputes that the Russians believe everything they are told which is, imo, far from the truth. The older generations know that lies of the black is white type were the norm pre 1990, and the younger people will obviously have noticed the differences between what the state says and what they are reading/hearing from the Web. If it is publicised that the Moskwa has been lost/badly damaged off Odessa, I don't think many will be sucked in by the "fire on board" story as if it had nothing to do with the "special operation". If there have been large numbers of casualties, then the official story of " all crew evacuated " will unravel pdq because many of the crew's families will live in the home port area and there will be a concentrated upswell of questioning/outcry/funerals.

Families will probably know the truth when the ship fails to come home. Latest reports are she caught fire, ammunition went up, she turned turtle and sank along with 400 or so of her crew.

[Beamr]

When K141 Kursk sank due to own torpedoes exploding, the Russkies blamed it on a "foreign sub".
Now as Moskva is hit by foreign missiles, the Russians say it was their own ammunition that exploded.

They do have consistency there.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Once again this imputes that the Russians believe everything they are told which is, imo, far from the truth. The older generations know that lies of the black is white type were the norm pre 1990, and the younger people will obviously have noticed the differences between what the state says and what they are reading/hearing from the Web. If it is publicised that the Moskwa has been lost/badly damaged off Odessa, I don't think many will be sucked in by the "fire on board" story as if it had nothing to do with the "special operation". If there have been large numbers of casualties, then the official story of " all crew evacuated " will unravel pdq because many of the crew's families will live in the home port area and there will be a concentrated upswell of questioning/outcry/funerals.

I am inclined to agree with you regarding the Russian people not believeing the fire on board story. But will enough people not believe Putin to start undermining his authority?

[NutLoose]

John Kirby, Pentagon press secretary on CNN says there was one or more explosions and Moskva is making its own way slowly and possibly heading towards Sevastopol as it is heading in that direction. With it being the flag ship I take it they may have lost that command element of the fleet temporarily.

That would make sense because you wouldn’t want to limp into a Russian port shot to sh*t as it would get around and would do moral no good.

Other reports say a Navy Admiral in Russia has been arrested.

[Mr Mac]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x446/image_f66308ec34b2afc2f6caeaa62a34e6ba7d0ae6fe.jpeg
ORAC
👍👍
Mr Mac

[papa_sierra]

Global Hawk over the area, so maybe an update soon.

[MPN11]

…. .
/sarc on
Anyway it seems the Russians did a great job evacuating the 500 crew completely in 2 meter seas @ night in a short time, and already getting some tug ( I guess from sevastopol 170 miles away) and taking on tow a smouldering hulk perhaps still very dangerous
/sarc off
I thought the Russians always deploy ocean tugs with their major units, anticipating a major breakdown? [/sarcasm] 😎

[Xeptu]

OH Orac, That is absolute GOLD, That image deserves recognition.

[Frostchamber]

Intriguing to watch the hoops they jump through in order to spin a suitable Russian narrative to apply to any situation, however bad.

[dead_pan]

Just a thought - if there is even a hint of NATO involvement in this attack, things could get 'interesting' in the next day or two.

[Davef68]

Global Hawk over the area, so maybe an update soon.

Interesting the RQ-4 is showing up on FR24, but not on ADS-B Exchange.

Was there a Forte call sign up last night?

[Tartiflette Fan]

Nutty

That video seems incompatible with an attack happening around midnight in bad weather conditions.

[Xeptu]

Intriguing to watch the hoops they jump through in order to spin a suitable Russian narrative to apply to any situation, however bad.

well it is technically correct, an ordinance explosion caused by a fire which is under investigation. The fire was probably caused by a direct hit from a neptune missile.

Ethical Question for you military people, is it still OK to fire upon an enemy warship even though it may be conducting a rescue operation.

[DJ77]

Perhaps Ukraine could trigger another accidental fire on another ship in order to make things more obvious to the russian public.

[BANANASBANANAS]

well it is technically correct, an ordinance explosion caused by a fire which is under investigation. The fire was probably caused by a direct hit from a neptune missile.

Ethical Question for you military people, is it still OK to fire upon an enemy warship even though it may be conducting a rescue operation.

In this situation, it's a yes from me. If it is not sunk it could become operational again and be a threat. Take it out as soon as you have the shot.

[sangiovese.]

How many enquiries were there into the legitimacy of the Belgrano. If it’s enemy it’s a target.

[Beamr]

well it is technically correct, an ordinance explosion caused by a fire which is under investigation. The fire was probably caused by a direct hit from a neptune missile.

Ethical Question for you military people, is it still OK to fire upon an enemy warship even though it may be conducting a rescue operation.
you'd take out an enemy tank on tow so it won't be coming at you after repairs.
wouldn't shoot a man/woman on water, but the vessel...

[Recc]

Just a thought - if there is even a hint of NATO involvement in this attack, things could get 'interesting' in the next day or two.

Unlikely in my opinion. NATO countries are already having a substantial impact on the war through the supply of weapons and intelligence. If Russia thought it could gain military advantage by expanding the war, then it has more than sufficient justification to do so. The costs to Russia of direct aggression towards NATO countries or military assets would massively outweigh any advantage.

[Xeptu]

you'd take out an enemy tank on tow so it won't be coming at you after repairs.
wouldn't shoot a man/woman on water, but the vessel...

That's my thinking. I wouldn't fire upon an enemy vessel (not a warship) that is conducting a rescue operation, but if it's another warship then it's fair game.

[Ripton]

Interesting the RQ-4 is showing up on FR24, but not on ADS-B Exchange.

Was there a Forte call sign up last night?

There are two showing up on ADS-B today but only one on FR24. FR24 does appear to show a more complete track though.

I didn't see any last night though.

[ORAC]

Pentagon is saying she hasn’t sunk and appears to be under tow to Sebastopol.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/14/europe/russia-navy-cruiser-moskva-fire-abandoned-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

[jolihokistix]

Pentagon is saying she hasn’t sunk and appears to be under tow to Sebastopol.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/14/europe/russia-navy-cruiser-moskva-fire-abandoned-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

ORAC, according to that CNN article it’s the Russians who say she’s under tow. The US assesses that she is making her own way eastwards.

[SASless]

So....Admiral Kirby at the US DOD says Moskva is under its own power and steaming eastwards, other reports say it is being towed, some reports say all of the crew had been evacuated, fires contained (meaning extinguished?), perhaps essential crew returned to man the ship if it is either under tow or steaming under its own power?

Perhaps we might wait for more definitive and non-contradictory reports to tell the story.

[Ninthace]

So....Admiral Kirby at the US DOD says Moskva is under its own power and steaming eastwards, other reports say it is being towed, some reports say all of the crew had been evacuated, fires contained (meaning extinguished?), perhaps essential crew returned to man the ship if it is either under tow or steaming under its own power?

Perhaps we might wait for more definitive and non-contradictory reports to tell the story.
There even seems to be some discrepancy about which way up it is!

[pasta]

So....Admiral Kirby at the US DOD says Moskva is under its own power and steaming eastwards, other reports say it is being towed, some reports say all of the crew had been evacuated, fires contained (meaning extinguished?), perhaps essential crew returned to man the ship if it is either under tow or steaming under its own power?

Perhaps we might wait for more definitive and non-contradictory reports to tell the story.
It probably doesn't make much odds either way; by both side's accounts it sounds like it's sufficiently damaged to keep it out of the rest of the fight, and will consume more resources afloat than at the bottom of the sea. Russia's recent track record for getting capital ships back into service isn't exactly outstanding...

[dead_pan]

Ethical Question for you military people, is it still OK to fire upon an enemy warship even though it may be conducting a rescue operation.

Chris Wreford-Brown apparently generated a firing solution for one of the Argentinian vessels picking up survivors from Belgrano, but opted not to prosecute an attack.

Personally I'd have no problem finishing off a capital ship like Moskva, get rid of it forever.

On which note, I wonder it will have pickets to protect it while it is under tow? They would make a tempting target too...

[1771 DELETE]

The ship i knew as a Slava in the old days has been seriously damaged by missile attack.
Seems like they were a bit quick to abandon ship if its still afloat.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61103927

[Mogwi]

The wheelbarrows still work!

Mog

[Lonewolf_50]

Presuming that this was in fact a cruise missile attack and not an on board fire as the Russian news release asserts:
The aviation, or perhaps aerospace, question I have is how Ukraine's missile system (allegedly Neptun) got cueing and targeting information on a ship at sea when their own maritime assets are in poor shape.
I'll toss out a guess: drone/UAV got a good enough "AoP" for the Moskva and they let loose with a few Neptun's.
There, we have aviation content related to the OP. :}

Nostalgia moment: when we were doing FoN ops in the black sea back in '85, we were, shadowed/escorted by three Soviet Navy ships as we did our "right on the 12 mile limit" transits.
A Krivak frigate, a Udaloy destroyer, and the Slava (CG). She was fairly new then, and was a real beauty to behold.
Our helicopter detachment was not allowed to fly during that transit. We had to stay on the ship for various political reasons. We took a lot of pictures of our escorts, which were of course all turned into the ship's INT officer.
Our little flotilla was overflown by a Backfire at fairly low altitude. Loud, that was.

[SpazSinbad]

Some guesswork? Dunno: Loss of Russian Cruiser Moskva: What we know so far - Naval News (https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/loss-of-russian-cruiser-moskva-what-we-know-so-far/) 14 Apr 2022

[Orestes]

Even if it was still afloat, if an on-board fire was threatening the ship's magazine(s), abandoning ship may very well have been the most prudent thing to do, lest the ship go boom like HMS Hood.

[Imagegear]

Well if only 55 were taken off the hull by the Turkish ship in the area as is being suggested, that still leaves around 450 trying to prevent the "boom".

IG

[Orestes]

As always in war, info is often sketchy. I was going by the RIA Novosti report that the ship was completely evacuated. Whatever the case, the truth will make itself known eventually.

https://ria-ru.translate.goog/20220414/kreyser-1783435471.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[Mariner9]

Well if only 55 were taken off the hull by the Turkish ship in the area as is being suggested, that still leaves around 450 trying to prevent the "boom".

IG

I believe the Turks have denied that any of their vessels were involved in a rescue

[etudiant]

Presuming that this was in fact a cruise missile attack and not an on board fire as the Russian news release asserts:
The aviation, or perhaps aerospace, question I have is how Ukraine's missile system (allegedly Neptun) got cueing and targeting information on a ship at sea when their own maritime assets are in poor shape.
I'll toss out a guess: drone/UAV got a good enough "AoP" for the Moskva and they let loose with a few Neptun's.
There, we have aviation content related to the OP. :}
.



The US has spoken of 'unprecedented intelligence sharing', which suggests that satellite surveillance cuing data might have been supplied to the Ukraine.
Separately, does the 'Neptune' not look rather like a 'Harpoon' at launch?

[NutLoose]

https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1514679389526630408

[Lonewolf_50]

Separately, does the 'Neptune' not look rather like a 'Harpoon' at launch? To me it does, yes.
The Russian missile upon which it is based (KH-35) was dubbed Harpoonski by some Western wags when it came out. :p

[dead_pan]

It's sunk!! Just been confirmed by the Russian defence ministry.

[Wokkafans]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1514697336190087173?s=20&t=CdwX24bFPPcoo4QwNPG7Qg

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1514695087904727051?s=20&t=CdwX24bFPPcoo4QwNPG7Qg

Original TASS post:

https://twitter.com/tass_agency/status/1514693528047259654?s=20&t=2O6wjRM6dU07l_cAaaTiQQ

[T28B]

In support of dead_pan's posts:
https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1514696493847953414

[langleybaston]

That's a Gotcha for the tabloids tomorrow then.

[Gordon Brown]

Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

[NutLoose]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/896x717/image_7b6101d40d19443a25969b2ddba64f0ab949a4d1.jpeg

I do feel a slight sadness for the crew, most of them will not be involved with shelling anyone, nor raping or looting, and it will be a blow to a close community in their home port, but it did need taking out and that will reverberate all the way to the top while making the Navy now back right off.

[Ninthace]

To me it does, yes.
The Russian missile upon which it is based (KH-35) was dubbed Harpoonski by some Western wags when it came out. :p
Flys further though does it not?

[Ninthace]

In support of dead_pan's posts:
https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1514696493847953414
Any word on casualties?

[RichardJones]

Serves Russia right!! Great news,

[Beamr]

Good news comrade Putin, the navy divers just confirmed that the fire aboard the Moskva has been extinguished once and for all.

[dead_pan]

I do feel a slight sadness for the crew, most of them will not be involved with shelling anyone, nor raping or looting, and it will be a blow to a close community in their home port, but it did need taking out and that will reverberate all the way to the top while making the Navy now back right off.

Given the crew were reportedly the elite navy crew i.e believers in the cause, coupled with the fact the Moskva had been indiscriminately attacking civilian infrastructure, I'll not be shedding any tears

[dead_pan]

Any word on casualties?

No, nor will there be

[Wokkafans]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/495x782/get_13__b74d80de98955176bb8dff4ac7d378c294fe95b1.jpg

[WB627]

New Ukrainian stamps issued yesterday

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x749/fqox6fpxmbmhqob_93e6d18f620b234e788185ecd089f1e660adae87.jpg

Begs the question was this part of a publicity campaign by the Ukrainian Post Office?

[MAINJAFAD]

Bit off topic

Seems to be somewhat of a weird warship does an impersonations of Type 42 Destroyer sinking day today. Moskva sinks like the Sheffield, while in the USA, the WWII USS The Sullivans has done an ARA Hercules (sunk at the dockside).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGuyD2MC3c

[macmp419]

Somewhere lies the truth….

https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1514695820251217922?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7 Ctwgr%5Etweet

[GlobalNav]

It probably would if Putin had admitted that the loss of the ship was due to attack by Ukraine Forces but the party line seems to be that an on board fire triggered an amunition explosion. So Putin would first have to admit to the Russian people that he lied, or at the very least, his information was unreliable.

I look forward to hearing of more fires and explosions on Soviet (AKA Russian) warships.

Glad the sailors were rescued though.

[oxenos]

I suspect that it was scuttled. Sooner or later evidence would have emerged as to whether it was hit by missiles or caught fire. Now it is sunk, the Russians can stick to their story.

[Mariner9]

I suspect that it was scuttled. Sooner or later evidence would have emerged as to whether it was hit by missiles or caught fire. Now it is sunk, the Russians can stick to their story.

I agree. Pictures of a badly damaged vessel being towed into port would also have been great propaganda for the Ukrainians/terrible for the Russians, and I doubt the Russians have the ability currently to repair her.

And as for the sailors all being rescued, we only have Russian reports for that. Fire and explosion on a ship at night in rough weather is rarely 100% survivable.

[jolihokistix]

Poor towing procedure, sinking a perfectly good ship. I would not like to be the tugboat captain now.

[Xeptu]

And as for the sailors all being rescued, we only have Russian reports for that. Fire and explosion on a ship at night in rough weather is rarely 100% survivable.

And being under tow in those conditions is equally unlikely.

[Lonewolf_50]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGuyD2MC3c Yes, off topic as in "That's a floating museum in NYC, not the current USS Sullivans, DDG-68, which has a helicopter deck aft (aviation content!) no hangar, as it's a pre Flight III Arleigh Burke class destroyer.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1312/uss_the_sullivans_ddg_68_45accafeefc6603114b8e0abeba887c7294 9860a.jpg

[Ninthace]

I have not seen any pictures yet, perhaps unsurprising. Presumably there will be an absolute clampdown on the Russian side but weren’t there reports of a Turkish vessel assisting?

[rattman]

I have not seen any pictures yet, perhaps unsurprising. Presumably there will be an absolute clampdown on the Russian side but weren’t there reports of a Turkish vessel assisting?

denied by turkey

[MAINJAFAD]

Yes, off topic as in "That's a floating museum in NYC, not the current USS Sullivans, DDG-68, which has a helicopter deck aft (aviation content!) no hangar, as it's a pre Flight III Arleigh Burke class destroyer.
That's why I said the WWII (Original) one. Three Type 42's actually sank while in service (or in reserve). Sheffield sank under tow in a storm after she was hit by an Exocet, Coventry capsized within minutes after being hit by three bombs and the ARA Santísima Trinidad sank at her moorings (got the wrong ship, Hercules was the other Argentine Type 42), I just noted it was weird that two warships (even if one is a museum ship) sink on the same day.

[punkalouver]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/495x782/get_13__b74d80de98955176bb8dff4ac7d378c294fe95b1.jpg

News Release from Russian Defense Agency: Any claims of sinking of the Moskva by Ukrainian nazis is obviously false. After the successful completion of phase one of the Special Military Operation, the Moskva has been re-assigned to anti-submarine patrol along the bottom of the Black Sea. Please ignore fantastical claims by criminal elements.

[Kent Based]

I always thought that Soviet ships looked better than western ones due to their appearance of bristling with weapons. I mean compare the Moskva with the USS Sullivans above. It now seems possible that strapping 16 cruise missiles to the upper deck is asking for an ammo fire if struck by enemy weaponry? I'm guessing Nato ships that store missiles internally have more options for fire suppression in the event of fires?

[Recc]

I agree. Pictures of a badly damaged vessel being towed into port would also have been great propaganda for the Ukrainians/terrible for the Russians, and I doubt the Russians have the ability currently to repair her.

And as for the sailors all being rescued, we only have Russian reports for that. Fire and explosion on a ship at night in rough weather is rarely 100% survivable.

I think that the reports of poor weather may be somewhat overstated I was looking at some GRIB files that were issued around the time that the incident happened and it looks like there would have been a Northerly 15-20 Kts with significant wave height of around 1.5m when the alleged missile strike took place. Around the time she was reported under tow, this had dropped to 5kts with significant wave height of 0.5m. I very much doubt that the weather had much influence on either the SAR operation or the sinking.

[NutLoose]

The question must be were her cruise missiles onboard nuclear capable and was she carrying nuclear weapons, in which case, with her being on fire, sinking was probably the best outcome, as fire and nukes do not mix well. It makes you wonder if there was a risk did they scuttle her.


https://dip.org.ua/en/russia/experts-say-cruiser-moskva-may-have-nuclear-warheads/


The Ukrainian industry portal Defense Express, in turn, reports that the Moskva cruiser may have nuclear warheads. The Moskva cruiser carries 16 R-1000 Vulkan missiles, which can be armed with nuclear warheads with a yield of up to 350 kilotons. However, it is not clear whether nuclear warheads are always present at the installation, or whether they are placed there only by special order.

The cruiser “Moskva” is part of the permanent readiness forces of the Black Sea Fleet, so it must be able to quickly go to the open sea to perform combat missions. Reloading the warheads of the P-500/1000 missile is a time-consuming task and should only be carried out at the base.

The ratio of the number of nuclear warheads to conventional warheads on Russian cruisers is currently unknown. During Soviet times, there could have been several of 16 nuclear warheads.There are two possible nuclear weapons systems on the shipIn addition, the cruiser can carry other nuclear weapons – missiles for the Fort system, which is a ship-based analogue of the S-300. During Soviet times, several of them were regularly on board 64 missiles of this system.

According to Defense Express, in the short term, there is no risk of a possible explosion of these missiles in the event of a sinking of the cruiser. As the portal emphasizes, there are currently about 10 reactors, about 10 torpedoes and about 20 ballistic missiles at the bottom of the seas and oceans, most of which ended up there as a result of accidents on Soviet ships that took place from the 1960s to the 1980s.

[Beamr]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x547/img_20220415_wa0005_6afb5c6bbd1c319d240977bc4039c71d25d67585 .jpg

[Tartiflette Fan]

I suspect that it was scuttled. Sooner or later evidence would have emerged as to whether it was hit by missiles or caught fire. Now it is sunk, the Russians can stick to their story.

I don't reckon that's likely. Think of all the huge value of equipment that could have been salvaged and also of the extreme danger to the crew put on board to carry out the scuttling: damaged ships sinking under tow is a common situation; As for any embarrassing photos going into port, well the Kremlin is well-versed in telling improbable lies

[KiloB]

Looking at the photos of the vessel, the design would seem much less ‘battle worthy’ than a traditional cruiser. It does look fearsome as an offensive weapon, but the external mounting of the large anti-ship missiles certainly gives the impression that it could be seriously damaged by a well placed RPG, never mind anything larger. Presumably each tube contains not just a warhead, but a significant amount of propellant?

[Asturias56]

Designed in the 1960's to lead ASW battle Groups etc. To get the range the missiles had to be BIG and to make it worthwhile (as they couldn't easily be reloaded at sea) you had to have 16 - which takes up a lot of space. They needed the missile range (circa 800kms) to stay as far as possible from any NATO carriers

[Clop_Clop]

"Deliberately sunk as it reached the end of it's operational life" according to RT citing a source in the Russian govt...

[jolihokistix]

So, no mention of the words ‘top heavy’ then? Mum’s the word.

[MPN11]

"Deliberately sunk as it reached the end of it's operational life" according to RT citing a source in the Russian govt...
1. It was a fire on board.
2. It was a [NATO?] missile.
3. It was scuttled as scrap.
4. It was scuttled as beyond economic repair.
5. It sank under tow due to big waves.

I do wish they'd make a decision on which lie to tell.

[Professor Plum]

"Deliberately sunk as it reached the end of it's operational life"

By Ukraine?

:D

[TWT]

The Moskva was built in Ukraine so perhaps fitting that the events that led to its demise were initiated by Ukraine.

[Tartiflette Fan]

1. It was a fire on board.
2. It was a [NATO?] missile.
3. It was scuttled as scrap.
4. It was scuttled as beyond economic repair.
5. It sank under tow due to big waves.

I do wish they'd make a decision on which lie to tell.

I wonder how they will square any of them when the news of ( I feel likely ) 400+ deaths leaks out ?

[The Helpful Stacker]

ORAC
👍👍
Mr Mac
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x469/img_20220415_wa0007_5c7bb004edf77768e7397974c2e9a3b356387d3d .jpg

[NutLoose]

What can one say but LOL,

The Russian navy cruiser Moskva by far is the most powerful warship in the Black Sea. If Russian President Vladimir Putin orders his troops to widen their war in Ukraine, Moskva, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/12/21/in-2014-russias-black-sea-fleet-was-aging-and-weak-today-it-can-fire-cruise-missiles-at-kiev/?sh=8436477766c0), undoubtedly would lead the naval assault.

Think of Moskva as a 12,500-ton, 612-foot mobile missile battery with nearly 500 people aboard. She packs enough anti-ship missiles to wipe out the entire Ukrainian navy and enough air-defense missiles to swat away any conceivable aerial attack on the Black Sea Fleet’s amphibious flotilla.

She packs 16 fixed launchers for P-1000 anti-ship missiles with a range of 300 miles, vertical tubes for 64 S-300 air-defense missiles with a range of 56 miles, rail launchers for 40 Osa missiles for aerial self-defense plus a bevy of guns—twin 130-millimeter guns that can hit targets 15 miles away plus self-defense guns. Torpedo tubes and a helicopter round out her capabilities.

Moskva’s value to a Ukraine operation could make her a top target of Ukraine’s missileers. Assuming the Ukrainians can preserve their anti-ship missiles through Russian bombardment and pinpoint Moskva’s location using radars or drones, they might get to take a few shots at the cruiser.

The cruiser’s sensors make her self-sufficient as a missile battery. The ship’s Top Pair and Top Steer radars can peer out to 200 miles or farther. Moskva led the Russian navy’s seaborne assault on the Republic of Georgia back in 2008, protecting three amphibious ships that landed a battalion or two of naval infantry.

During the Russian invasion of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014, the cruiser held station off Donuzlav Bay, bottling up the Ukrainian warships there. In 2015 she deployed to the Syrian coast in order to protect Russian troops from possible air and sea attacks.

Aging and reportedly vulnerable to fire, Moskva in 2016 sailed back to Sevastopol in Crimea for a three-year overhaul. She emerged with P-1000 anti-ship missiles in place of her older P-500s. The overhaul extends her service life by a decade or so.

Back in November, Moskva and the frigate Admiral Essen sailed from Sevastopol to shadow American and Turkish warships patrolling the Black Sea.

Moskva’s sensors and weapons have kept her relevant, even as the Russian navy in recent decades mostly has abandoned Soviet doctrine. Today the Russian navy combines oceangoing submarines with a modest surface force that steadily is replacing big, high-endurance ships with small, short-endurance ones. Those small ships—frigates and corvettes—retain a long-range strike capability in the form of Kalibr cruise missiles.

Moskva is not a Kalibr-carrier. But she can protect the Kalibr-carriers—and other ships—as she sweeps the surrounding sea and air of enemy ships and planes. Aside from Moskva, the Black Sea Fleet operates 10 frigates and corvettes, six diesel-electric submarines and 10 or 11 amphibious ships and boats.

In the likeliest Ukraine scenarios, the corvettes and submarines will lob Kalibrs at targets on land while the amphibs, sailing inside the protective umbrella of Moskva’s missiles, land a couple battalions as part of a possible wider effort to seize Ukrainian ports such as Odessa.

The Ukrainian fleet is powerless to resist. It has no submarines. And its sole major surface combatant, the frigate Hetman Sahaydachniy (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/12/09/what-good-is-ukraines-one-frigate/?sh=3c18e0d54825), lacks major weaponry. The Ukrainian air force retreated from separatist-controlled Donbas in 2015 and since then hasn’t played any major role in Ukraine’s defense.

The only Ukrainian forces that might have any realistic shot at Moskva are the new Neptune anti-ship missile batteries (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/03/19/ukraine-is-hardening-its-coastline-against-russian-attack/?sh=716cb5e4d171). The stealthy, radar-guided Neptune can strike ships as far away as 175 miles. Kiev has bought Turkish-made TB-2 drones and American-made radars that can spot targets for the Neptunes.

It’s not clear how many Neptunes it might take to punch through Moskva’s defenses. Nor is it clear how many Neptunes the Ukrainians possess.

In any event, Moskva is a big ship and has proved she can take a missile. The Georgian navy reportedly managed to score one hit on the cruiser back in 2008. She spent a year in drydock and was back at sea by 2010.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/20/the-russian-cruiser-moskva-dominates-the-black-sea/?sh=456c62fc75e5



Scuttled possibly, if you have nuclear weapons on board and possibly cruise missile versions, you would be bricking it that the fire could reach them.

[The Helpful Stacker]

...the extreme danger to the crew put on board to carry out the scuttling...

The common method is opening the sea cocks and placing demolition charges on the sea chests. I doubt experienced naval personnel would consider these "extremely dangerous" tasks, given the ability to distance yourself from subsequent detonations with timing and/or remote trigger devices.

[Ninthace]

I would have thought within the context of operations in the north Black Sea against a negligible maritime threat, the requirement for a nuclear warhead on an anti-shipping missile would be very low. Certainly detonation against a maritime target in comparatively shallow sea would create intense fallout.

Perhaps in retrospect, strapping 8 missiles in tubes to the outside of your ship was not the cleverest idea.

[NutLoose]

I would have thought within the context of operations in the north Black Sea against a negligible maritime threat, the requirement for a nuclear warhead on an anti-shipping missile would be very low. Certainly detonation against a maritime target in comparatively shallow sea would create intense fallout.

Perhaps in retrospect, strapping 8 missiles in tubes to the outside of your ship was not the cleverest idea.

You say that. but we had nukes on board ships during the Falklands, indeed they did a ship to ship transfer mid ocean to remove some.

https://declassifieduk.org/uk-deployed-31-nuclear-weapons-during-falklands-war/

[NutLoose]

It's being reported the Capt. was killed in the explosions. Scratch one more senior officer, and if he was on the Bridge possibly several more.

Captain of sunk Russian warship Moskva ‘killed in explosion’, says Ukraine (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/captain-of-sunk-russian-warship-moskva-killed-in-explosion-says-ukraine/ar-AAWfIuP?ocid=winp2oct&cvid=3021d0cec993453fb4c8ee578df37541)

[Ninthace]

You say that. but we had nukes on board ships during the Falklands, indeed they did a ship to ship transfer mid ocean to remove some.

https://declassifieduk.org/uk-deployed-31-nuclear-weapons-during-falklands-war/
You note the action was to remove, Guessing here, but given the position and size of the missile tubes, I would have thought swapping out would be a dockyard job and therefore a precursor to sailing with an appropriate weapon fit.

I am still not clear in my own mind that the ASMs were not pretty much decorative anyway unless there was a credible threat could they be used against? Are there any large NATO vessels lurking around and liable to interfere?

[Tartiflette Fan]

I would have thought within the context of operations in the north Black Sea against a negligible maritime threat, the requirement for a nuclear warhead on an anti-shipping missile would be very low. n.

Sometimes SOP's work and sometimes they don't. I was working for a pens/pencils manufacturer at the time of the Falklands and recall seeing a "SuperRush, above urgent order " for two gross of 2B Mirado pencils for the task-force;

[NutLoose]

But as with the Falkland's you have to be ready for any situation including the West getting involved, no point being there if you have to nip back to port to change your weapon fit to suit the West joining in etc.

[Tartiflette Fan]

You note the action was to remove, Guessing here, but given the position and size of the missile tubes, I would have thought swapping out would be a dockyard job and therefore a precursor to sailing with an appropriate weapon fit.

I am still not clear in my own mind that the ASMs were not pretty much decorative anyway unless there was a credible threat could they be used against? Are there any large NATO vessels lurking around and liable to interfere?

Since they were part of the permanent installed armament, would you not expect them to be fully loaded ? I am assuming that the ship was designed for deployment in a particular geographic area.

[Ninthace]

But as with the Falkland's you have to be ready for any situation including the West getting involved, no point being there if you have to nip back to port to change your weapon fit to suit the West joining in etc.
Even so a nuke in the Black Sea is not the best decision in the book. I always understood that would be more open ocean against a large force. We will know soon. If you see a barge with flag Alpha over the wreck site with an aggressive defence round it then they lost something they want back.

[Tartiflette Fan]

Some newspapers have reported - likely nonsensically - seamen jumping into life-boats. This prompted me to think about raft-stowage on warships: I am not sure if I have ever noticed this. It is well-known that passenger-ships have to have one place per person, but what is the norm on warships ?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Some newspapers have reported - likely nonsensically - seamen jumping into life-boats. This prompted me to think about raft-stowage on warships: I am not sure if I have ever noticed this. It is well-known that passenger-ships have to have one place per person, but what is the norm on warships ?
I don't have a link to hand but I'm sure someone can Google it: SOLAS requires 125% Of the maximum capacity of the vessel in terms of lifeboat capacity (obviously for redundancy). Dredging my memory that is split with 25% pax capacity on each side of the vessel allowed to be inflatable and 37.5% some kind of rigid lifeboat.

I can't speak to current naval practice but I'd imagine no worse than SOLAS (i.e. 125%) would be a starting point, though I've an inkling that warships tend more towards use of inflatables than rigid lifeboats for operational reasons.

[MPN11]

Interesting point. However, presumably ‘inflatables’ would be subject to perforation in a conflict, so I would guess some buoyancy material in a semi-rigid doughnut.

For RU Navy, I guess one lifeboat for the Captain, one for the Commissar … and swimming lessons for the rest.

[etudiant]

Even so a nuke in the Black Sea is not the best decision in the book. I always understood that would be more open ocean against a large force. We will know soon. If you see a barge with flag Alpha over the wreck site with an aggressive defence round it then they lost something they want back.

Does anyone know how far offshore the ship was when hit?
If the NATO surveillance aircraft shared the location data with the Ukraine, do they become de facto co belligerents subject to Russian jamming/attack?

[Recc]

Does anyone know how far offshore the ship was when hit?
If the NATO surveillance aircraft shared the location data with the Ukraine, do they become de facto co belligerents subject to Russian jamming/attack?

Most reports suggest around 65Nm offshore. Ukraine certainly has the capability to supply it's own targeting data at that range, but could equally well have used surveillance data from another country.

In either case what difference does it make? Whatever term you use, many western nations have been making substantial contributions to the Ukrainian war effort and could in no sense be described as neutral. Russia knows this and if they felt that they would gain an advantage by expanding the scope of their war, you can be sure that they would not need a legal justification. Direct confrontation with NATO would be catastrophic for Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

[MAINJAFAD]

Interesting point. However, presumably ‘inflatables’ would be subject to perforation in a conflict, so I would guess some buoyancy material in a semi-rigid doughnut.

For RU Navy, I guess one lifeboat for the Captain, one for the Commissar … and swimming lessons for the rest.

She actually did have quite a few lifeboats fitted around the rear half of the ship, Containers pretty much like those fitted to RN ships of the era.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I have zero military knowledge, so my apologies if this is a stupid question.

Now I naively think of any military vehicle as platform for launching missiles, rockets etc. For what does one need ships? Isn't an airborne missile platform always more powerful, more agile, more versatile, more difficult to locate? Is it the fire power of the canons?

[Lonewolf_50]

I always thought that Soviet ships looked better than western ones due to their appearance of bristling with weapons. I mean compare the Moskva with the USS Sullivans above. It now seems possible that strapping 16 cruise missiles to the upper deck is asking for an ammo fire if struck by enemy weaponry? I'm guessing Nato ships that store missiles internally have more options for fire suppression in the event of fires? Reaching back into my years of needing to know about the Soviet Navy and why their ships and our had different design assumptions.
0. Our Navy was built from the ground up for power projection, the Soviets more for sea denial, although Admiral Gorshkov moved toward power projection and sea line control as he led the Soviet Navy in it's growth into a true Blue Water Navy.
1. The major surface combatants were built - the Slava(CG) / Kirov(CGN) / Udaloy (DDG)/ Sovreminyy(DDG) classes in particular - with an eye towards Naval warfare being a case of "the battle of the first salvo". (Among others, John Keegan covers stuff like this in his various evolution of warfare books).
2. Their long range cruise missiles were big and meant to disable aircraft carriers (when not nuclear tipped) and more (when nuclear tipped). This was a complement to Oscar and Charlie SSGNs who had similar long range and big cruise missiles meant to take out major formations of surface combatants (USN/NATO) and in particular CV battle groups. The Aegis Anti Air Warfare system had as its primary objective the neutralization of the cruise missile saturation scheme (Air, surface and sub surface launched) which was understood to be the Soviet's opening gambit in any 'battle of the first salvo' engagement. (It had other uses, but that's where its hard requirements came from back in the 70's).
3. The Soviets did not spend the money on habitability that we did.
4. Lots of Gatling type gun mounts for their own Cruise Missile defense systems.
5. Hormones replaced by Helix eventually (hey, look, aviation content!) and based on our observations of watching their flight ops, for night ops they just turned on the lights, while the USN did stuff in the dark with red lights, etc. (This before NVGs became a standard bit of kit~ we did unaided night flying and we liked it!).

While I won't comment on the seaworthiness of their various surface combatants - my overall naval architecture knowledge is very slim - there were surface officers/fish heads of my acquaintance who questioned the general sea keeping qualities of some of the Soviet designs.

[SimonPaddo]

I have zero military knowledge, so my apologies if this is a stupid question.

Now I naively think of any military vehicle as platform for launching missiles, rockets etc. For what does one need ships? Isn't an airborne missile platform always more powerful, more agile, more versatile, more difficult to locate? Is it the fire power of the canons?

its not still April 1st is it?

[NutLoose]

Sam, not a stupid question.

The Russians only have one carrier and it is well past it’s sell by date, it is continually breaking down, the idea of these floating missile cruisers is to support landings etc by give air defence and bombardment capability.

About the carrier

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russias-lone-aircraft-carrier-headed-back-shipyard-201390

..

[Lonewolf_50]

I have zero military knowledge, so my apologies if this is a stupid question.
When one wishes to learn one is ignorant, not stupid.
Now I naively think of any military vehicle as platform for launching missiles, rockets etc. For what does one need ships? Isn't an airborne missile platform always more powerful, more agile, more versatile, more difficult to locate? Is it the fire power of the canons? A ship at sea can stay on station for days/weeks/months. An aircraft can stay on station for hours (and in rare cases, days).
Also, most naval war ships are Multi Purpose Combatants. They are not just "a floating missile battery" meaning that they have guns, radios, radars, sonars, and Intelligence collection systems.
They also (nowadays) act as floating airfields for UAVs, for Helicopters, and/or (as you get much bigger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Minsk#/media/File:Aircraft_carrier_%22Minsk%22_in_1986_(3).jpeg) ships) fixed wing aircraft. (By they VSTOL or CATABAR). They can also carry people to put ashore if the circumstances require that.
To a certain extent, you are looking at an apple and trying to see how it compares to a lug nut. ;)

[Jetstream67]

Even before this all kicked off the RJs, CSs and KCs etc were out there daily. They fly over us outbound so hear/see them all the time, 7 days a week. And, before anyone shouts "OPSEC" at me, FR24 clearly shows many of them (clearly not all by a long way) up from various bases - so NATO clearly wants some of them to be seen - and where they come from - to send that message out too! ;) Black Sea, Romania, Poland, Lithuania, the Baltic..... and from all over Europe.... The E-3s will be having a full-time job just keeping tabs of all that friendly activity. But I'm sure the E-3s have other "interests" too. :ok:

OK, I'll get my anorak off........ :p

PS. Talk of the devil, just heard the next KC-10 off on its next trip. Again, on FR24. Anorak really off now! Byeeee! H 'n' H
I think the NATO assets are taking great pains to be visible as NATO assets and hard to "Mistake for unknown/secret /new/ Ukranian attack platforms"

[Ninthace]

She actually did have quite a few lifeboats fitted around the rear half of the ship, Containers pretty much like those fitted to RN ships of the era.
Looking at an image, there are 10 life raft cannisters immediately visible on the starboard side. The same on the port side . There appear to be 2 more for'ard of the funnel on either side. How many people per raft is the unknown quantity but they look large.
https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Moskva-info-full.jpg

[clareprop]

Does anyone know how far offshore the ship was when hit?

I'm pretty sure someone does and I'm also certain they know what happened. Telling the world about it however, might give away some rather clever satellite observation technology.

[Imagegear]

A general Idea of location:

Nothing to gloat about here, a lot of men died and some of the comments are out of order. Those who go down to the sea in ships...

http://<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ukrainian Coast Guard: Russian Black Sea fleet failed to rescue Moskva crew despite efforts made <a href="https://t.co/ZKX392PeI2">https://t.co/ZKX392PeI2</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ukraine?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Ukraine</a> <a href="https://t.co/tgXCht2MLN">pic.twitter.com/tgXCht2MLN</a></p>&mdash; Liveuamap (@Liveuamap) <a href="https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1514991122921238528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 15, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

For comparison:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1297x694/black_sea_d61bcfb6a93e8bf6264d8c4becbeac1cdbd5de24.png


IG

[Tartiflette Fan]

I' Telling the world about it however, might give away some rather clever satellite observation technology.

A large ship moving relatively slowly in a limited area being hugely surveilled by God-knows how many different systems ?? Are you sure you are talking to the right forum with this response ?

[Timelord]

When one wishes to learn one is ignorant, not stupid.
A ship at sea can stay on station for days/weeks/months. An aircraft can stay on station for hours (and in rare cases, days).
Also, most naval war ships are Multi Purpose Combatants. They are not just "a floating missile battery" meaning that they have guns, radios, radars, sonars, and Intelligence collection systems.
They also (nowadays) act as floating airfields for UAVs, for Helicopters, and/or (as you get much bigger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Minsk#/media/File:Aircraft_carrier_%22Minsk%22_in_1986_(3).jpeg) ships) fixed wing aircraft. (By they VSTOL or CATABAR). They can also carry people to put ashore if the circumstances require that.
To a certain extent, you are looking at an apple and trying to see how it compares to a lug nut. ;)

AND, you can’t have a cocktail party on an aircraft. Well, you can, but…..

[Lonewolf_50]

AND, you can’t have a cocktail party on an aircraft. Well, you can, but…..
Oh, dear, I did forget that. Thank you for reminding me! :}

[Beamr]

Pentagon says now that two Ukrainian missiles did hit the Moskva

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1515008951494094851

[SASless]

So...two good questions remain to be answered....how many of the crew were lost and were there nuclear warheads aboard the ship when if went down?

In the past the US Navy showed a very real interest in Russian Sub sinkings so will they now be as interested in this sunken Russian warship?

[Mariner9]

Claims on Twitter that the Commander of the Black Sea Fleet has been arrested. Looks like another heart attack may be imminent.

[pasta]

In the past the US Navy showed a very real interest in Russian Sub sinkings so will they now be as interested in this sunken Russian warship?
I don't imagine the Black Sea is a particularly easy place to prospect for manganese nodules without drawing attention to oneself...

[etudiant]

I don't imagine the Black Sea is a particularly easy place to prospect for manganese nodules without drawing attention to oneself...

On the other hand, the depths of the Black Sea are unusually anoxic, so the wreck will be very well preserved for future investigators.

[Beamr]

Claims on Twitter that the Commander of the Black Sea Fleet has been arrested. Looks like another heart attack may be imminent.
in the ww2 the Soviet front line troops had weapons pointing at their faces and their backs. Anyone not going towards the enemy was shot by the barrier troops. Apparently this still is the practice.

[Prunus Dessicata]

Cracking good result, though let's not kid ourselves that the leles weren't the only ones who were playing the Ukes on that gig.

[BFSGrad]

In the past the US Navy showed a very real interest in Russian Sub sinkings so will they now be as interested in this sunken Russian warship?
Doubtful the USN has sufficient interest in a 40-year-old warship that would justify the risk of a Black Sea operation.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Doubtful the USN has sufficient interest in a 40-year-old warship that would justify the risk of a Black Sea operation.

Especially as even the Russians have said it was...

"Deliberately sunk as it reached the end of it's operational life" ...

[Imagegear]

More Info:

A ship matching Moskva’s size and situation is seen at 45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E. This position is east of Snake Island, 80 nautical miles from Odesa and 50 nautical miles from the Ukrainian coast. The satellite passed at 6.52pm local time. Based on analysis by multiple people, we are confident that this shows Moskva’s final hours.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/satellite-image-pinpoints-russian-cruiser-moskva-as-she-burned/#prettyPhoto/0/





IG

[West Coast]

From the Kremlin spokesman: “Heroic cruiser Moskva promoted to submarine”

Nothing to see here, move along.

[ORAC]

The Russians failed to rescue any of the crew before she sank. Even if the reports of a Turk ship having saved 54, that means over 500 dead - including the admiral and his entire staff on board.

[Wokkafans]

Russia Hits Kyiv Missile Factory After Moskva Flagship Sinks

Coincidence... .

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/04/15/russia-hits-kyiv-missile-factory-after-moskva-flagship-sinks-a77360

[Lonewolf_50]

Cracking good result, though let's not kid ourselves that the leles weren't the only ones who were playing the Ukes on that gig. Can you explain what that word salad means in plain English?
Doubtful the USN has sufficient interest in a 40-year-old warship that would justify the risk of a Black Sea operation. Likely true, and I think that in time the Russians may send some of their special purpose submersibles to the site of the sinking for their own reasons to recover X, Y, Z and so on.
It would be most awkward, in a sort of "James Bond Movie comes to real life" way, for a bunch of American (or Turkish, or Greek, or Bulgarian) divers to be on scene as the Russians are down there taking care of business. It would also create a serious PR mess that the Russians would make the most of.
Better to let the sleeping sea dogs lie.
RIP, sailors of the Moskva. When the live rounds are being used, that's one of the things that can happen.

@West Coast: Now that's funny, I don't care who you are. :ok:

[SASless]

They could care less about the ship itself but I would think if there were Nuclear Warheads aboard that. might spark some interest.

Are the fish in that area glowing in the dark in excess of normal?

[Lonewolf_50]

They could care less about the ship itself
I am not so sure about that, they put it through a refit/overhaul a few years back (or maybe you could call it a service life extension program) to keep it a going prospect until about year 2040. The production of Slava cruisers was a pretty short run. Originally 10 ships were planned, but with the collapse of the Soviet Union only three were completed. A fourth vessel was launched, but final construction remains incomplete and the ship has not been commissioned into service.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Russian_cruiser_Marshal_Ustinov_MOD_45164875.jpg/200px-Russian_cruiser_Marshal_Ustinov_MOD_45164875.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_cruiser_Marshal_Ustinov_MOD_45164875.jpg)
A stern view of Marshal Ustinov in 2018, after modernization.After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the three finished ships commenced service in the Russian Navy while the uncompleted fourth vessel, renamedUkrayina, had its ownership transferred to Ukraine. {Irony, eh?} Efforts have been made to complete and update the unfinished ship. In 2010, Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych stated that Russia and Ukraine would work together on the project. Russia has also expressed interest in purchasing the vessel, which Ukraine had previously offered for sale. However, as of early 2011 no final agreement has been concluded between the two countries, on this matter. The Russian Navy had plans to extensively upgrade all of their Slava-class vessels during the 2010s; completing work on Ukraina may have served as a test-bed for this. As of April 2022, the fourth hull remains afloat at a Ukrainian shipyard, uncompleted. As that's a wikipedia article excerpt, take with such grains of salt as needed.

[Wokkafans]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/440x590/2e76e485f149774f7b357dfd687bebe0c63d5f756fbb1e49d946bdd332e3 351b_e937abaff237880733fd09539451c6c7dfa5c3df.png

[rattman]

Looking at the photos of the vessel, the design would seem much less ‘battle worthy’ than a traditional cruiser. It does look fearsome as an offensive weapon, but the external mounting of the large anti-ship missiles certainly gives the impression that it could be seriously damaged by a well placed RPG, never mind anything larger. Presumably each tube contains not just a warhead, but a significant amount of propellant?


No the missile are liquid fueled so they fueled just before launch

[NutLoose]

Well the got that bit correct..

Slava Class design

Designed as a battle cruiser, the Slava Class is smaller and less expensive than other ships, which demonstrate similar capabilities. The design integrates the P-500 Bazalt missile, which is a conventional alternative to the missiles installed in the Kirov Class battle cruiser. A crane is installed on the ship for handling boats, while anti-ship missiles fitted on either side of the superstructure provide it with a typical appearance. The vessels have poor damage control capabilities due to flammable materials used in the structure.



https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/slavaclassguidedmiss/

[NutLoose]

Moskva failed launch?

https://twitter.com/von_nano/status/1515096498190512128

[NutLoose]

Possibly low resolution radar images of Moskva last moments and also news the fleet in Sevastopol may have sailed and is heading for Ukraine.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/satellite-image-pinpoints-russian-cruiser-moskva-as-she-burned/#prettyPhoto

[Xeptu]

Russia Hits Kyiv Missile Factory After Moskva Flagship Sinks

Coincidence..

Well let's see, we know when the missiles were fired and what they were fired at, we know when Moskva called for help. we know what Ukraine's unverified claims were before we heard from Russia and we know she sank. Would it be reasonable to conclude that none of these things are related. I think not. However it would be better for us in the western world to believe that as a consequence of Russia's corrupt or dodgy practices and lack of proper maintenance over the last 20 years that has made it's military machine somewhat of an issue.
It makes me wonder what the state of their ballistic missiles are like in that environment among those engineers that believe they would never be used. probably why those engineers go to North Korea, where the pay is better.

[jolihokistix]

Possibly low resolution radar images of Moskva last moments and also news the fleet in Sevastopol may have sailed and is heading for Ukraine.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/satellite-image-pinpoints-russian-cruiser-moskva-as-she-burned/#prettyPhoto

The first line of that interesting article is quite clever: "The Russian cruiser Moskva will go down in history."

Edit, in order to add a reader's comment I found on another site.
Sister ships of her class visited Norfolk and San Diego in the 1990s. The visits were well documented in the press and in some naval publications, one of which I still have. One of the things US Navy visitors found noteworthy was the complete lack of firefighting and damage control equipment in them. Every compartment and passageway of US and Japanese warships are packed full of fire hoses, fire mains, low light cameras, breathing apparatus, wooden timbers to shore up sagging bulkhead, wooden wedges to hammer into leaks, fire axes, saws, sledge hammers, battery operated battle lanterns, etc.. None of that was apparent on the Russian ships. It doesn't surprise me they could not control the fires and flooding. However they did have a real fancy spa with a pool and fake waterfall for the crew to relax in.


From https://japantoday.com/category/world/Russian-military%27s-damaged-Black-Sea-flagship-sinks#comments

[ChrisVJ]

What does the loss of life say about crew training, resilience or command? Loss of the ship doesn't appear to have been "instantaneous" and it wasn't in Arctic (albeit possibly cold) water. The loss of life in the apparent circumstances is shocking.

[Xeptu]

What does the loss of life say about crew training, resilience or command? Loss of the ship doesn't appear to have been "instantaneous" and it wasn't in Arctic (albeit possibly cold) water. The loss of life in the apparent circumstances is shocking.

If what has been leaked out is true, then about 90 mins before she went down, if only 54 were saved, also unconfirmed, then that is probably as bad as it gets.

[lederhosen]

Given what has been happening to people who failed Putin it would be no surprise if the command staff chose to go down with the ship. The whole business continues to demonstrate Russian overconfidence in the superiority of their war machine and of course the pointless tragedy caused by one man‘s megalomania.

[MickG0105]

No the missile are liquid fueled so they fueled just before launch
Do you have a reference for that, because it doesn't fit with the way that the P-500 Bazalt/P-1000 Vulkan missiles were deployed operationally.

Those missiles were originally fitted to Russian submarines and the tubes were mounted outside the pressure hull. It would not be feasible to fuel the missiles before launch. Same same for warships like the Kievs and the Slavas - it's just not feasible to have tanks of liquid rocket fuel and oxidiser stored on a warship that needs to be pumped into your main offensive armament before you can use it.

Everything I have read indicates that the missiles are loaded to their launch canisters fuelled. That would be no different to US practice with the Tomahawk and Harpoon.

[Xeptu]

If, as was suggested, she rolled onto her side fairly quickly and the unknown ship alongside took off circa, 54 from "The Hill", not many more were going to get out.

And no doubt all of Russias wealthiest most prominent military peoples sons, who are not going to be happy.

[NutLoose]

While not the missile used, could you imagine two of these hitting a fully armed ship, no wonder there could be heavy casualties.

https://youtu.be/um3_6NM6II4

[petit plateau]

Does anyone know the time of missile(s) impact ?

The [RORSAT] satellite passed at 6.52pm local time, on [Wednesday] April 13, https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/satellite-image-pinpoints-russian-cruiser-moskva-as-she-burned/

Then here are the key timings of subsequent events from the wiki source references (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Moskva)

"Ukrainian presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych and Odesa governor Maksym Marchenko said their forces hit Moskva on 13 April 2022, with two R-360 Neptune anti-ship cruise missiles, and she was on fire"
(I've not been able to locate this tweet, though I recollect seeing something like it at about 10pm in Greece, which is the same time zone as Odessa in Ukraine)

"According to him, an SOS signal was recorded from the cruiser at 1:05 p.m."

"At 1.14 a.m., the cruiser lay on its side, and after half an hour, all the electricity went out. From 2 a.m., the Turkish ship evacuated 54 sailors from the cruiser, and at about 3 a.m., Turkiye and Romania reported that the ship had completely sunk. The related loss of Russian personnel is still unknown, although there were 485 crew on board (66 of them officers)," Anusauskas said.

The various accounts of Bayraktar TB2 involvement are inconclusive re timing, though the Forbes one suggests that Moskva was on fire by time of local darkness:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/30757-reports-indicate-that-bayraktar-helped-to-attack-moskva
https://charter97.org/en/news/2022/4/14/463477/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/unicefusa/2022/04/08/a-childs-eye-view-of-war-in-bucha-ukraine/?

[NutLoose]

I wonder where they landed the survivors, or did they transfer them to a Russian ship.

[jolihokistix]

Sky news talks about 100 survivors 'confirmed'. but despite a few snippets of other information it does not support that confirmation. Their resident expert also alleges that one of the missiles hit a large launcher tube on deck.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-loss-of-russian-moskva-missile-cruiser-means-port-of-odesa-is-now-a-bit-safer-12590711

[Trumpet trousers]

What does the loss of life say about crew training, resilience or command? Loss of the ship doesn't appear to have been "instantaneous" and it wasn't in Arctic (albeit possibly cold) water. The loss of life in the apparent circumstances is shocking.

Probably speaks volumes about Russia's attitude to crew 'survivability'.... i.e. they are expendable

[MickG0105]

While not the missile used, could you imagine two of these hitting a fully armed ship, no wonder there could be heavy casualties.

And the Neptune has a 20 percent larger warhead than that.

[rattman]

Probably speaks volumes about Russia's attitude to crew 'survivability'.... i.e. they are expendable


The discussion I seen from pro russian sites is that the 2 missiles struck. Completely out of control fire and flooding. Ammunition explosion about 20 minutes later turtled the ship. Sunk about an hour or so later. They are also claiming about 400 dead from crew and additional naval marines billeted on the ship for special operations. So about 100 to 150 survivors

[NutLoose]

Sky said one may have hit one of the launcher tubes which are near the bridge.

[PlasticCabDriver]

The first line of that interesting article is quite clever: "The Russian cruiser Moskva will go down in history."

Edit, in order to add a reader's comment I found on another site.
Sister ships of her class visited Norfolk and San Diego in the 1990s. The visits were well documented in the press and in some naval publications, one of which I still have. One of the things US Navy visitors found noteworthy was the complete lack of firefighting and damage control equipment in them. Every compartment and passageway of US and Japanese warships are packed full of fire hoses, fire mains, low light cameras, breathing apparatus, wooden timbers to shore up sagging bulkhead, wooden wedges to hammer into leaks, fire axes, saws, sledge hammers, battery operated battle lanterns, etc.. None of that was apparent on the Russian ships. It doesn't surprise me they could not control the fires and flooding. However they did have a real fancy spa with a pool and fake waterfall for the crew to relax in.


From https://japantoday.com/category/world/Russian-military%27s-damaged-Black-Sea-flagship-sinks#comments

A couple of the RN members on Arrse none too complimentary about the state of the Russian ships either. Either not fitted/missing equipment as described above, or what was there was in rag order. Access panels painted over, rust everywhere, particularly in areas that they weren’t supposed to see that they got glimpses of. And these were ships that had been prepared for visits.

[Less Hair]

Who would have been onboard a vessel like this? The crew and the captain, above him an admiral and staff for the Black Sea fleet group and a detachment of naval infantry for special operations and such? What happened to them? Who was in charge and who is accounted for?

[petit plateau]

Local sunset in Odeassa is 19:45 direction 286° West. So if the two (?) missiles did not either/both put in significant doglegs (though some doglegs would be the norm) then they were likely coming from roughly up-sun if it was a late-afternoon / early evening engagement. That is one reason I am trying to understand the time of engagement. Another is to understand the damage control timing better.

If the main phased array radar was either trying to track one (or more ?) TB2 on a different bearing, then it is possible that the first observation might have been visual. That is not so unusual with these sorts of naval engagements.

The RORSAT pictures show the Russian vessels in a NE-SW line, almost as if they were seeking to act as a radar blockade as well as a surface blockade, the point being that it is possible there was no other vessel that was more up-threat than the Moskva itself.

The speculation regarding the SSN-12 deck-mounted missles going up has, as far as I can see, no evidence basis. I'm not saying it is unlikely, but we have no reason to believe it vs any other explanation. I too suspect she rolled over fairly quickly - that would be consistent with what has been observed about Russian naval architecture and the likely damage and the reported level of casualties. Again, understanding the timeline is informative if more information is forthcoming.

====

Looking to the future it is fairly obvious that the loss of that Moskva radar and the associated S300 battery on Moskva leaves a pretty big hole in the Russian anti-air defences in that sector. The remaining vessels do not have anywhere near the same anti-air capabilities as the Moskva did.

The SA-4 "Gecko" SAMs on the two Krivak frigates and the corvettes only have a ~10-mile range. Therefore these have no real impact on the aviation war over the land, and a really only for self-defense purposes.

The naval variant of the SA-11/17/27 "Buk" SAMs on the three Grigorovich are the later VLS type with a range of 50km/30nm, so comparable to Sea Dart and looking at the specs not to be sneered at. Useful as a naval task force area air defence system, but not really capable of directly intervening in the aviation war over the land unless they are able to park the ships right up close to the coast (which to be fair, they can do in Azov Sea and by Crimea).

Overall the loss of the Moskva has pretty much taken the Russian Navy out of the game of direct intervention in aviation over the land area of Ukraine which will reduce complications and provide opportunities for Ukraine pilots / UAVs.

However the remaining naval platforms may still have some utility as ESM platforms, and the Grigorovichs have a pretty potent radar system. I'm not sure if the Russians can network that into a common air picture with their land sensors.

The Ukraine now has a lot more freedom to manouevre both in the air and at sea in the south, onshore and offshore. Whether they have anything left that floats is a different matter. They are however due to receive at least one USV soonish.

[edit : I see Wiki has been updated since my post this morning, and is now saying the missile egagement was in "Ukrainian presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksiy_Arestovych) and Odesa governor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_of_Odessa_Oblast) Maksym Marchenko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maksym_Marchenko) said their forces hit Moskva in the early hours of 13 April 2022,". That implies far earlier in the day than previously thought. It is possible that the night-time image referred to in the Forbes aticle I referenced was taken in early morning 13-Apr rather than late evening 13-Apr]

[dead_pan]

Shocking to think the Russian's priority appeared to be to tow the vessel back to Sevastopol to avoid the humiliation of its loss, rather than concentrate on rescuing any crew members who may still have been trapped below decks, or recovering the bodies of those who died. Its the Kursk all over again.

[dead_pan]

They are however due to receive at least one USV soonish.


There's been much discussion about loitering munitions, but does such a thing as a sub-surface loitering munition exist e.g. a sea mine with sensors and propulsion? Would seem a fairly obvious weapon to develop.

[etudiant]

There's been much discussion about loitering munitions, but does such a thing as a sub-surface loitering munition exist e.g. a sea mine with sensors and propulsion? Would seem a fairly obvious weapon to develop.

Very much so, the US Navy version is called the Captor, been around for decades and iirc it used a Mk-46 lightweight torpedo configured as a mine, creating a loitering torpedo. I've no idea how smart the holding package is, but certainly expect that it has seen significant improvement thanks to more modern electronics, making the weapon much more versatile..

[ORAC]

The USN plans to use XLUUV ORCA to deploy Hammerhead mines (Captor replacement).

[NutLoose]

Shocking to think the Russian's priority appeared to be to tow the vessel back to Sevastopol to avoid the humiliation of its loss, rather than concentrate on rescuing any crew members who may still have been trapped below decks, or recovering the bodies of those who died. Its the Kursk all over again.

I do wonder if they were attempting to get it to shallow waters or a port where the facilities are available to carry out a rescue, in the middle of the sea in a warzone is not the place to congregate various vessels to attempt a rescue knowing the ship you are attempting to rescue folks off was hit at that location. If it was buoyant the last thing you would want to be doing would be cutting holes in the hull. But I am just guessing as the nearest I have been to see is a ferry.

[Asturias56]

"n the middle of the sea in a warzone is not the place to congregate various vessels to attempt a rescue knowing the ship you are attempting to rescue folks off was hit at that location."

Correct - remember the three British cruisers torpedoed early in WW1 when they tried to rescue the crews of each other..................

[Less Hair]

Maybe they were ordered to save the nukes first?

[ORAC]

Remaining saved crew - assuming they are the actual crew and not PR stand-ins.

Not sure how the crew would have been retrieved, recovered, re-uniformed and in a fit state to go on parade so soon after their ship being sunk under them…

https://twitter.com/liveuamap/status/1515370033211449344?s=21&t=SEuWNf6TthGZqf1gcVrkTg

[tdracer]

While not the missile used, could you imagine two of these hitting a fully armed ship, no wonder there could be heavy casualties.

I recall reading an article (probably AW&ST) maybe 40 years ago about a test of a then new US Navy anti-ship weapon (Harpoon?). Anyway, the target was a decommissioned US warship - but fully prepared with all the watertight doors shut, etc.
The missile didn't have any warhead, but the kinetic energy of the missile impact along with the residual fuel caused such a massive explosion that the target ship broke-up and sank. :eek:
Reportedly the Navy was rather unhappy that the target ship sank as they had planned to use it for something else...

[dead_pan]

Remaining saved crew - assuming they are the actual crew and not PR stand-ins.

Not sure how the crew would have been retrieved, recovered, re-uniformed and in a fit state to go on parade so soon after their ship being sunk under them…

They do appear to be in remarkably good health given the traumatic event they've just experienced. Not a flash burn in sight

[NutLoose]

Plus all the trees appear to be in full bloom.

Regardless of sides I do find this ( I believe a Russian’s ) tribute rather moving. As someone says in the comments, they treated the people off Snake Island fairly and they were eventually released.

https://twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1514981373504798721



..

[Cat Techie]

They do appear to be in remarkably good health given the traumatic event they've just experienced. Not a flash burn in sight

The reserve crew of the Moskva I wager.

[albatross]

I recall reading an article (probably AW&ST) maybe 40 years ago about a test of a then new US Navy anti-ship weapon (Harpoon?). Anyway, the target was a decommissioned US warship - but fully prepared with all the watertight doors shut, etc.
The missile didn't have any warhead, but the kinetic energy of the missile impact along with the residual fuel caused such a massive explosion that the target ship broke-up and sank. :eek:
Reportedly the Navy was rather unhappy that the target ship sank as they had planned to use it for something else...

I seem. to recall reading that the anti-ship, anti-U-boat, anti-armour rockets used in WW2 on Swordfish, Mosquitos ect. on maritime missions and. by Typhoons overland were equivalent to a 6 inch AP shell and often penetrated the pressure hulls of U-boats and exited the other side leaving 2 large holes which rapidly flooded the hulls.
Momentum is a wonderful thing or not depending on your point of view.

[Lonewolf_50]

I recall reading an article (probably AW&ST) maybe 40 years ago about a test of a then new US Navy anti-ship weapon (Harpoon?). Anyway, the target was a decommissioned US warship - but fully prepared with all the watertight doors shut, etc.
The missile didn't have any warhead, but the kinetic energy of the missile impact along with the residual fuel caused such a massive explosion that the target ship broke-up and sank. :eek:
Reportedly the Navy was rather unhappy that the target ship sank as they had planned to use it for something else... I'll need to do a bit of digging, but for some reason I think that was a Tomahawk TASM (ASCM) test. (Early version, before the land attack versions were rolled out). Let me see what I can figure out.

[macmp419]

Remaining saved crew - assuming they are the actual crew and not PR stand-ins.

Not sure how the crew would have been retrieved, recovered, re-uniformed and in a fit state to go on parade so soon after their ship being sunk under them…

All look remarkably “old” and unscathed. I am as sceptical as you..

[Tartiflette Fan]

I haven't seen these photos, but really what purpose will they serve? Potentially smooth the waters for a week or two, but when the stories of 400+ bereaved families seep out into the news - initially in Sevastopol but then nationally and internationally - Putin's empire is once again exposed as the dyed-in-the-wool liars they are.

Perhaps that's still the problem. They were only ever taught short-term cover-up, as long-term was - previously - not needed.

[Cat Techie]

I haven't seen these photos, but really what purpose will they serve? Potentially smooth the waters for a week or two, but when the stories of 400+ bereaved families seep out into the news - initially in Sevastopol but then nationally and internationally - Putin's empire is once again exposed as the dyed-in-the-wool liars they are.

Perhaps that's still the problem. They were only ever taught short-term cover-up, as long-term was - previously - not needed.
Isn't there a posthumous medal for giving life in active duty? Do the Russians still publish that now? If they do, that maybe a clue. I doubt they do. Most died a horrible death, occuring due the actions by one man and his henchmen.

[Professor Plum]

Either way, the people in the video purporting to be moskva survivors look like little more than a rabble

[MickG0105]

I'll need to do a bit of digging, but for some reason I think that was a Tomahawk TASM (ASCM) test. (Early version, before the land attack versions were rolled out). Let me see what I can figure out.
There have been a variety of live fire tests for both Harpoon and Tomahawk over the years. Harpoons were used against a decommissioned amphibious supply ship (formerly the USS Durham) during the SINKEX phase of RIMPAC 2020 - https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36077/watch-three-anti-ship-missiles-rip-through-uss-durham-during-rimpac-sinking-exercise A Tomahawk was used in a live fire against barge stacked with shipping containers in 2015 - https://news.usni.org/2015/02/09/video-tomahawk-strike-missile-punches-hole-moving-maritime-target There are undoubtedly others.

[SASless]

How about in the Iraq War...any used there against the Iraqi Navy?

[MickG0105]

How about in the Iraq War...any used there against the Iraqi Navy?
The Battle of Bubiyan of the first Gulf War saw over 20 Iraqi Navy vessels sunk in one action. Mainly smaller vessels like fast attack craft, patrol boats and mine layer/sweepers were sunk, over half to Royal Navy Sea Skua missiles (~30 kg HE warhead), half a dozen to laser-guided bombs. There was even an attempted engagement of a fast attack boat by a Canadian Hornet using a Sparrow air-to-air missile - the Hornet could lock the target up but the missile failed to track.

[fdr]

Am back.

1. I wonder where they landed the survivors, or did they transfer them to a Russian ship.

I would think СИЗО, следственный изолятор

2. Ukrposhta will have to recall the stamps issued on 14th... herewith is the revised design

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1288x944/screen_shot_2022_04_17_at_1_26_24_pm_d45c64fbb3cc8d11de7a2ec 29bc2e05c17a4c9f4.png

3. Loss of life is regrettable, including the shooting in the back of the head of bound civilians by Putins hordes. One side of this fight had a choice, the other is defending itself from a bunch of murderers, this being a "special Military action", not a war. Ergo, every civilian killed by the Russians, Wagners thugs, Chechen irregulars is a homicide. These are not war crimes, they are murders perpetrated at the command of Mr Putin. The Russian soldiers that are refusing to serve, kudos. That takes honor to call out their murderous leader.

4. The tactics of the neptune use are going to be good reading when they are released, expect some surprises, and no, not involving NATO help, the Ukrainians deserve respect.

5. the "100" or "300" switchblades story is curious. Why would you mention a trivial amount of a weapon system? By any metric the number trumpeted is inconsequential, but then, what is the hidden message. If this was a poker game, there would be a lot of questions going on in the background, and I would think that the Russians need to seriously consider how many zero's have been dropped off the delivery. Personally, I hope it is a lot of zero's that are dropped. Food for thought.

6. Did the Slava class have nukes on board? Would be amazed if it didn't. It's war load is anti USN CBG's and there is just no way that it didn't carry enough buckets of sunshine to have overkill of a USN CBG threat in the eastern med had it transpired. The 3M70 missile, (P-1000) is nuke capable with at least a 0.370 megaton warhead, designed to light up USN carriers. It was intended to be used in an attack using multiple missiles. That suggests that there is a number of the tubes that had nukes in them. Not all, that would be limiting of options, but enough to deter at least a single carrier group from getting within 500km of the Black sea. As a tactic that should at least annoy Turkey, who sits slap in the missile range of any attack done on a CBG from the rusty tub in the Black Sea. Great friends to have, the Russians. Just ask Ukraine, Poland, Finland, Georgia, Chechnya etc.... In fact, what countries have not been threatened by Russia? Putin has to give up smoking his medicinal hemp, he is more paranoid than the normally paranoid Russian leaders.

[Beamr]

Putin has to give up smoking his medicinal hemp, he is more paranoid than the normally paranoid Russian leaders.
They are a strange bunch of paranoids they. Juri Andropov was convinced that electing a Polish pope was a scheme of CIA running anti-communism conspiracy in Poland. He had top KGB brass summoned for their incompetence on that matter.

Then again, he was an ex-KGB just like Putin.

[Blackfriar]

The Battle of Bubiyan of the first Gulf War saw over 20 Iranian Navy vessels sunk in one action. Mainly smaller vessels like fast attack craft, patrol boats and mine layer/sweepers were sunk, over half to Royal Navy Sea Skua missiles (~30 kg HE warhead), half a dozen to laser-guided bombs. There was even an attempted engagement of a fast attack boat by a Canadian Hornet using a Sparrow air-to-air missile - the Hornet could lock the target up but the missile failed to track.

Did we really sink Iranian Navy ships in the first Gulf War or were they Iraqi?

[rattman]

5. the "100" or "300" switchblades story is curious. Why would you mention a trivial amount of a weapon system
6. Did the Slava class have nukes on board? Would be amazed if it didn't. It's war load is anti USN CBG's and there is just no way that it didn't carry enough buckets of sunshine to have overkill of a USN CBG threat in the eastern med had it transpired.

On the switch blades. its "systems" and each system is a 1 command node and either 6 or 10 drones/munitions

There was an agreement that russian ships would not carry nuclear tipped missiles in 1992. Also note there was an agreement russia wouldn't develop IRBM and they ignored that

If you goto AIS you well see that 2 Jackup barges are now located where the Moskva went down.

[MickG0105]

Did we really sink Iranian Navy ships in the first Gulf War or were they Iraqi?
​​​​​​D'oh! The latter.

[Asturias56]

"Juri Andropov was convinced that electing a Polish pope was a scheme of CIA running anti-communism conspiracy in Poland. "

Well he was wrong there but absolutely correct about the potential danger it threatened to the Communist Party

[Less Hair]

Andropov's KGB might very well have been involved in the Pope assassination attempt back then.
https://www.dw.com/en/stasi-files-implicate-kgb-in-pope-shooting/a-1538173

[dead_pan]

Did Moskva sink in international waters? If so I wonder if the USN are trying to 'inspect' the wreck...

[Imagegear]

Yes but, It will be difficult with two jack up rigs sat on top of it.

IG

[fdr]

"Juri Andropov was convinced that electing a Polish pope was a scheme of CIA running anti-communism conspiracy in Poland. "

Well he was wrong there but absolutely correct about the potential danger it threatened to the Communist Party


I always thought that the greatest threat to the communist party was truth.

[SRFred]

Yes but, It will be difficult with two jack up rigs sat on top of it.

IG
Are the rigs there to help the tractors move it?

[Imagegear]

Are the rigs there to help the tractors move it?

Absolutely,
Let them lift it off the bottom then the tractors can drag the whole lot away..

IG

[jeepjeep]

Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy held a meeting with the crew of the cruiser Moskva in Sevastopol 4/16/2022, 12:58:32 PM

“Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Admiral Nikolai Evmenov and the command of the Black Sea Fleet held a meeting with the crew of the Moskva missile cruiser in Sevastopol,” the agency said in a Telegram message. Evmenov said that the officers, midshipmen and sailors of the cruiser would continue to serve in the Navy. On April 14, the cruiser Moskva sank while being towed in a storm.

Source: russiart 2022-04-16

[Killaroo]

"n the middle of the sea in a warzone is not the place to congregate various vessels to attempt a rescue knowing the ship you are attempting to rescue folks off was hit at that location."

Correct - remember the three British cruisers torpedoed early in WW1 when they tried to rescue the crews of each other..................
Yep - the Hogue, the Cressy and the Aboukir. My great uncle was a stoker on the Aboukir.

[macmp419]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1620x1779/e4b56e90_b54f_4e84_8543_333ece4f5b1f_8c138663b950b57b53d2237 8f2eadce80e368241.jpeg

[Sailvi767]

Does anyone know how far offshore the ship was when hit?
If the NATO surveillance aircraft shared the location data with the Ukraine, do they become de facto co belligerents subject to Russian jamming/attack?

ProvIding targeting data is an act of war.

[Ninthace]

ProvIding targeting data is an act of war.
The Ukrainians had a drone in the air near the ship by all accounts. The ship been sailing a regular patrol pattern I believe. No need for the passage of any data.

[dead_pan]

ProvIding targeting data is an act of war.

It's position was hardly a secret, given it was basically a vast radio transmitter.

I thought Russia might have gone with this as their excuse, rather than their lame ammunition explosion explanation.

[beardy]

ProvIding targeting data is an act of war.
Where did you get that from?

[WideScreen]

Has been much discussed online - apparently the bridge is very heavily defended.

Still, would be a larf if they could..
Well, the Moskva was the "best" and most heavily defended Russian Naval Proud. And we are writing this thread, because that turned out to be just a hoax.

[Professor Plum]

ProvIding targeting data is an act of war.

hello cupcake,

I take it you’re new to warfare?

[rattman]

ProvIding targeting data is an act of war.

They didn't need western targetting data, they could easily get if from the TB2 that was acting as bait

If they were going to help and I dont believe they would even consider it. They would have put up some F-18G's and disrupted the moskva's radars and electronics. Because that is totaly NOT an act of war according to russians because they 'claim' they did it donald cook in 2018

[rattman]

President Zelensky promoted Navy Commander Oleksii Neizhpapa to vice-admiral.

An adviser to Zelensky's chief of staff said the decision made for “conducting a brilliant operation everyone already knows about.”

Wonder why ?

[rattman]

First possible shots of the moskva

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1515818122036621321/photo/1

[NutLoose]

And another, they did mention some had flown off and the heli deck doors are open.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1515821259225022466

[MAINJAFAD]

First possible shots of the moskva

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1515818122036621321/photo/1

Defo the Moskva unless another Slava class has been lost and nobody knows about it. The one in Ukraine which is not finished does not have the crane in front of the S-300 Launchers.

[MikeSnow]

A few higher resolution shots of the Moskva:

https://twitter.com/Battlesstations/status/1515835100591710210

[Ninthace]

And I'll bet those dumb Russkis haven't thought of that...


The road and rail cross each other at least 3 times on.bridges and there is a long section where they run parallel. Just saying.

[MikeSnow]

And a close-up:

https://twitter.com/Battlesstations/status/1515839010551308290

[Ninthace]

A few higher resolution shots of the Moskva:

https://twitter.com/Battlesstations/status/1515835100591710210
That would appear to be seriously bent.
Still power to the fire pumps though.

[Wokkafans]

More info and damage pics here:

H I Sutton - Covert Shores (http://www.hisutton.com/Russian-Navy-Moskva-Sinking.html)

[Wokkafans]

https://twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1515830499020877830?s=20&t=n7XKh8CveCyhYTzsXqCS-g

https://twitter.com/WarObserver14/status/1515836145350807556?s=20&t=n7XKh8CveCyhYTzsXqCS-g

[megan]

Better days, photographed from the roof of our Istanbul hotel.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/warship_aac65cce89ccc2c4e9380cd35d89e94a290efddf.jpg

[Navaleye]

The damage shown is consistent with the Ukrainian account of the incident. BZ

[WillFlyForCheese]

That would appear to be seriously bent.
Still power to the fire pumps though.

those aren’t her pumps running - there’s a rescue boat on her starboard side - you can tell by the ship’s mast in the background.

[WillFlyForCheese]

That would appear to be seriously bent.
Still power to the fire pumps though.

Okay - did a bit of research. It looks like, in the pictures above, the rescue tug Shakhter is on site and providing firefighting support for Moskva -on her starboard side. The Project 712 - Shakhter (SB-922) is part of the Black Sea Fleet - out of Sevastopol. She was in port a couple days ago. Masts, stack, and hoses / water canons match perfectly.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1037x692/69d379a6_d138_4676_94d3_f5713e73be5b_40412be8a8c3920abe61ef4 c43992b5c3e3b13f4.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1231x923/4845d0fb_aa97_44b7_b6e9_050090288dd3_60fc52db94d58b5edbc4759 0f9e76ee12857ec51.jpeg

[Pali]

Photos of cruiser Moskva:

https://twitter.com/uaweapons/status/1515820381013168135

[WhatsaLizad?]

Were the pics taken before the "'stormy weather"? :E

[mickjoebill]

Is the apparent red coloring of the deck associated with whatever is coming out of the fire hoses?


Mjb

[fdr]

Okay - did a bit of research. It looks like, in the pictures above, the rescue tug Shakhter is on site and providing firefighting support for Moskva -on her starboard side. The Project 712 - Shakhter (SB-922) is part of the Black Sea Fleet - out of Sevastopol. She was in port a couple days ago. Masts, stack, and hoses / water canons match perfectly.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1037x692/69d379a6_d138_4676_94d3_f5713e73be5b_40412be8a8c3920abe61ef4 c43992b5c3e3b13f4.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1231x923/4845d0fb_aa97_44b7_b6e9_050090288dd3_60fc52db94d58b5edbc4759 0f9e76ee12857ec51.jpeg

Good effort in your research, WFFC.

There's gonna be a fairly high toll of the CIC team and others in that area north of the machinery spaces, but there should have been a recovery of much of the crew at least from the tub, how they will fare at Lefortovo is another matter. Russia is pretty tough on those that have dared to be survivors.... K-219, K-19 K429, etc...

[jolihokistix]

Have just seen a Japanese news site quoting 'an independent news site' Novaya Gazeta Europe (sp?) with some different figures of 40 dead, 27 missing, and large numbers of wounded. Usual pinch of salt advised.

[NutLoose]

Notice most of the rear liferaft pods just fwd of the hangar are gone, possibly more got off, or the strike on the mid section blew them overboard?

https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1515835497867878404/photo/1

[Asturias56]

The fire seems concentrated right in the centre of the ship - which is where you'd expect any missile to lock onto

[B Fraser]

Notice most of the rear liferaft pods just fwd of the hangar are gone, possibly more got off, or the strike on the mid section blew them overboard?

https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1515835497867878404/photo/1

I don't see much evidence of the heavy sea state that was said to have caused her to sink. :rolleyes:

edit : Just noticed Mr Wotsalizad had already pointed this out.

edited again : I guess that if this is the Russian definition of a stormy sea then it's consistent with a bit of slush in Salisbury being sufficient for two KGB agents to turn back from their visit to the Cathedral due to blizzard conditions. :cool:

[jolihokistix]

Just read a long article in Japanese by a defence analyst who points out a list of reasons why China will be in serious shock over the obvious vulnerability to anti-ship missiles of the Moskva. Their fleet is based on Soviet/Russian design, so they will need a complete rethink. Taiwan is bristling with such missiles which will threaten any sea-borne attempt at invasion. By the same token all of the China Sea countries which have been brow-beaten and bullied by these larger Chinese ships in recent years will have taken due notice and adjusted their shopping lists accordingly.

[SnowFella]

Very brief video clip, 2 seconds, is doing the rounds now and seem to confirm WillFlyForCheese's sleuthing.
https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1515960492338126848

[dead_pan]

I'm intrigued by those soot marks at various locations along the hull-deck join. Suggests widespread fire below decks?

That's sea state 1...

[petit plateau]

There's even a brief video of it taken from astern, with that tug pulled away a little. The wind direction is from the north if anyone wants to figure out the time of day from the shadows.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1515962198488625152

[Asturias56]

"I guess that if this is the Russian definition of a stormy sea then it's consistent with a bit of slush in Salisbury"

The Black Sea can get VERY rough but as you say this is milk pond conditions in the pictures

[dead_pan]

The main damage appears to be exactly where the port mid-deck CIWS is located